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Advice for new build

B

blazingoat

n00b
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
15
Hi all,

I’ve been running the system below for years now, and it’s finally time to upgrade thanks to my tax return.

Pentium 4 (Northwood "C") 3.4 Ghz with HT @ 3.8Ghz on Air
Zalman Copper Air Cooler
Abit IC7 Max 3 Motherboard
2Gb Corsair XMS Dual-Channel DDR Ram (overclocked)
2x 36gb 10,000rpm WD Raptors in RAID 0 for system drive
2x 500gb 7,200rpm Seagate SATA drives in Raid 0 for video editing
Nvidia 256mb Dual DVI AGP video card
2x Dell 20” Widescreen LCD monitors via dual-DVI
Pioneer DVD+- DL burner
Windows XP SP2
Lian-Li Aluminum ATX Case
(Can’t recall my power supply specs, but I think that will have to be upgraded with my new rig anyways.)

I’ve been running this system over-clocked and stable for years, so I’m sad to see it go, but it’s time for a quad core. I use this computer for everything, including: web surfing, Photoshop, After Effects, AVID video editing, DVD encoding, streaming HD video to my Xbox 360 for viewing on my plasma TV etc. I do a lot of multitasking with this system, and I need it to be stable.

I want to upgrade my mobo, processor, ram and video card. (Also maybe going to upgrade to a SATA DVD-R to keep the case clean, and will probably need a new power supply too.) – My budget is around $1000 for all this. Eventually, I also want to upgrade my storage situation to have a 2tb array that has both speed and redundancy, so I’m looking for a mobo with good on-board SATA raid.

I hardly do any gaming with this rig- so I’m not super concerned with graphics performance - other than being able to drive my two DVI monitors, but I’d like to get an SLI or Crossfire ready board for the future.

I’m looking for the most bang for my buck in terms of fast speed for video editing, encoding and multi-tasking etc. Is a mid-range quad core the way to go for this? Or is a higher clocked C2D better?

As for over-clocking – I’ve been out of the game for a while, as you can see by my antiquated specs, but I think I would like to try to get a decent over-clock from my new system with air. Are the quads good overclockers on air cooling? Also, is DDR3 worth it right now?

I was thinking about this on the cheaper side:

EVGA nForce 780i SLI Motherboard CPU Bundle - Intel Core 2 Quad Q6700 Processor 2.66GHz OEM

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3714946&Sku=MBM-780I-Q6700
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3714946&Sku=MBM-780I-Q6700

But, I’m really leaning toward this Asus board which seems great except for the higher price of DDR3.

Asus P5E3 Deluxe Motherboard CPU Bundle - Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Processor 2.40GHz OEM

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3528994&CatId=1599
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3528994&CatId=1599

(Sorry for the Tiger links… I’m in Canada – so newegg isn’t an option).

I've used Asus boards before, and have been pleased. Also, this board seems to have more features and better SATA RAID options.

Any thoughts on these boards and proc choices? Are they right for my needs? How much of a performance increase will I get from a new setup? I hear that a lot of apps aren’t going to use more than one or two of the cores at most…

I would appreciate recommendations on montherboards, processors, power supplies, RAM and video cards for my new build. Also, I will need a good air cooler for the setup.

Eventually - I really want to get a better RAID setup for Hard Drive space. I want to setup around a 2tb RAID array that is both for speed and redundancy (0+1) or should I use 5 or 10? Anyone have experience using these on-board SATA raids with 4 or 5 drives?

Thanks for all your help and please forgive my ignorance, multiple questions and long post. I respect all your knowledge.
 
Wow, that's alot of stuff you got there. Anyways...any reason why you want a SLI or Crossfire board if you don't game much? You plan on running more than 2 monitors down the road?
 
SLI and CrossFire currently don't support multiple monitors. You would probably benefit more from using a P35-based motherboard with many features. Some boards to consider are:

Danny Bui said:
MSI P35 Neo2-FR Intel P35 Motherboard - $112
DFI BloodIron P35-T2RL Intel P35 Motherboard - $120
Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3R Intel P35 Motherboard - $122
DFI LanParty DK P35-T2RS Intel P35 Motherboard - $140
Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3P Intel P35 Motherboard - $151
Abit IP35 Pro Intel P35 Motherboard - $170
Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS4 Intel P35 Motherboard - $180

Just to help you out: If you need 5 SATA ports, 2 eSATA ports, and a second PCI-E x16 port, then get the Neo2-Fr. If you want heavy overclocking abilities and six SATA ports, check out the Blood Iron. If you like the BloodIron but want significantly better overclocking stability, go for the LanParty. If you want 8 SATA ports, RAID, and legacy ports and high overclocks, than the DS3R is a good choice. If you want the DS3R but need Firewire and a second PCI-E x16 port, then go for the DS3P. If you want something that can overclock pretty damn high along with eSATA ports and firewire connections, than the IP35 Pro. Note that the IP35-Pro seems to have problems with the Wolfdale CPUs.
Click to expand...

(I know you live in Canada, but I've included the links so they're used as references. Also, check out NCIX.com for a few deals.)

If you can't wait for the new Penryn quad-cores (the Q9xxx series), then get the Q6600. It's not worth spending more on the Q6700 because the Q6600 is a good overclocker. Here are some CPU coolers to use with the Q6600:

Danny Bui said:
Scythe SCNJ-1100P Ninja HSF - $36
Tuniq Tower 120 HSF - $45
ZEROtherm Nirvana NV120 120mm HSF - $46
Thermalright Ultima-90 HSF - $46 & Panaflo FBA09A12M 92mm Fan - $3
Thermalright Ultra-120 Extreme HSF - $57 & Scythe S-Flex SFF21E 120MM Case Fan - $14
Click to expand...

There's no reason to get DDR3 RAM right now. If you are going with the Q6600 (don't get the Q6700 because it's not worth the extra money), you won't need RAM faster than DDR2 800. You'll see no difference performance-wise between CL4 and CL5 memory, so don't spend more on lower latency RAM.

The SATA DVD burners everyone talks about here are the Samsung SH-S203B/N and the Lite-On 20A1S models. The Samsungs are know to operate quieter than other optical drives.

Again, you can't use SLI or CrossFire with multiple monitors. For the video card, and with your monitors in mind, you may want to look at the G92 (512MB) 8800GTS, the Radeon HD3870X2, and the new 9800GTX and 9800GX2.

For your setup, you'll want a power supply with at least 500 watts. (You could bump the minimum wattage amount up to at least 650 watts if you stick with an SLI/CrossFire setup.) Some brands to consider are Seasonic, Silverstone, Thermaltake (ToughPower models only), Corsair (which are rebranded Seasonic PSUs), and PC Power & Cooling.
 
Thanks for the advice!

I was thinking I would get an SLI/Crossfire capable board so that in the future, If I decide to game on this rig, I could... but I had no idea that SLI/Crossfire doesn't work with multiple monitors...That will save me some $$!

That Abit IP35 Pro board is looking kinda sweet.

I found the specs for my current power supply - It's pretty new actually because my original one died about 8 months ago. It's a 650w Thermaltake Toughpower model. I don't think it will need to be upgraded.

I think I will go with the Q6600 then for sure. When do the the Penryn's come out? Should I wait for that? Are the Penryn's the 45nm ones? Cause I was reading that the Asus DDR3 board supports those already (one reason I was thinking about getting it for future upgrades...)

Anyways... looks like this is going to be cheaper than I thought! Anyone have experience overclocking with the Abit IP35 Pro and Q6600? Recommend a good cooler for maximum OC and good RAM to pair with this?

thanks in advance!
 
The Penryn processors will work with the P35 motherboards, but it's better to wait for them to become more widespread. As the E8400 (another Penryn-based processor) and the 8800GT (originally) showed, new items tend to be in low supply and higher prices the during first six months after they arrive.

If you're planning on high overclocks, then you may not want to get the Q9xxx quads -- their (locked) mulitpliers are lower than the Q6600. The Q6600 tends to max out at around 3.6GHz (but YMMV) but any of the CPU coolers that I mentioned earlier would work. The Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme (w/ Scythe S-FLEX SFF21E fan) is the best performing CPU cooler, but the ZEROtherm Nirvana has the best bang-for-buck performance of the group. If your case has little room for those HSFs, then go with the Thermalright Ultima 90... it has a smallest footprint, mounts the easiest among the CPU coolers, and can handle both 92mm and 120mm case fans.

You really don't need fancy "high performance" RAM, as Intel's Core 2 Duo/Quad processors don't benefit from a RAM overclock. (Keep the FSB:RAM ratio in your motherboard's BIOS as 1:1 and you'll be fine.) At the prices they are now, you could buy 4GB of DDR2 RAM (like the G.Skill 4GB kit) for around $80. But you'll need a 64-bit OS to properly utilize all of the memory.

If you really wanted to, you could transfer all of your hard drives (as well as the ToughPower PSU) over to your new rig.
 
Looks like tiraides is taking good care of ya. Heed his advice.
 
Yes! tirades is the man.

And yes, I will be keeping the computer case, monitors, hard drives etc. I'm just looking to do the mobo, proc, ram and video card right now.

I'm still deciding between the Q6600 or waiting a bit for the 45nm chips...
 
I'm getting ready to pull the trigger by the weekend. I think I'm going to be going with a Q9300 2.5ghz. Tiger just got them in stock, and judging by this review just posted, this cpu looks sweet!

I think I'd prefer the larger cache, higher stock FSB and 45nm benefits rather than the possible higher OC headroom of the Q6600.

The review is from here: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3584440&Sku=CP2-DUO-Q9300

Yes, Yes, Yes!!! TG finally has a 45nm Core 2 Quad!!!!!! This rocks in performance with the added GHz (2.5 instead of 2.4) Temps are less, so is the TDP wattage! The overclocking ability is outrageous, I wish it was retail so I could test OC'ing on a stock cooler. So far, not done OC'ing, just got this, I am running with P5N-T Deluxe, 8GB RAM, 3 750 GB HD's and a GeForce 8800 Ultra and liquid cooling, too chicken and taking slow with 3.66GHz @1.417 Volts hovering with temps at 60C max!!! Performance is great, get this (as in a few other reviews) instead of the Q6600, but I'm also waiting for the Q9450...

:D Anyone think I should hold off or get the Q6600 instead? 50$ price difference.
 
Ah crap! - just found this...

"The Q6600 has a 9x multiplier and can reach 3.6 GHz without pushing DDR2-800 memory! The Q6600 G0 is cheaper, can be overclocked higher, and thus performs better. There is no reason to buy this Q9300..."

I guess I need to move this over to the Intel CPU forum...
 
I guess you forgot what I said earlier:

tiraides said:
If you're planning on high overclocks, then you may not want to get the Q9xxx quads -- their (locked) mulitpliers are lower than the Q6600. The Q6600 tends to max out at around 3.6GHz (but YMMV) [...]
Click to expand...

There was a reason behind that... ;)

If you're planning on overclocking, here is some information that you need to know:

For Intel processors:
c × [Base FSB speed] = CPU Clock speed (c = CPU Multiplier)
2 × [Base FSB speed] = RAM speed (DDR: double data rate)
4 × [Base FSB speed] = Effective FSB speed (QDR: quad data rate)

Stock Speeds/Base FSB speed = Multiplier
Q6600 (1066 FSB) => 1066/4 = 266 => 2400/266 = 9
Q9300 (1333 FSB) => 1333/4 = 333 => 2500/333 = 7.5
Q9450 (1333 FSB) => 1333/4 = 333 => 2670/333 = 8
Q9550 (1333 FSB) => 1333/4 = 333 => 2830/333 = 8.5
Click to expand...

Because of their (relatively) low multipliers, you will have to push the FSB on the motherboard to higher speeds in order to overclock them. Without sufficient (active) cooling on the northbridge, you'll run into stability problems. This is why the Q6600 is preferred for overclocking: Its high multiplier plus its low FSB speed gives it more OC headroom.

Plus, the advantage of getting a retail CPU, compared to an OEM processor, is with the warranty. You get a three year warranty with a retail box, versus a 90-day warranty for an OEM one.

If you want stability, wait for the retail Q9300 or Q9450 processors to arrive. If you want something you can overclock now, stick with the Q6600.
 
thxs again, Tiraides!

I was going to be going with an OEM chip anyways... isn't the warranty on a retail chip void the moment you start over-clocking the thing? - or can they not tell when you return it?

Why would a retail Q9300 be more stable than an OEM one? Or do I miss-understand you?
 
I've never heard of anyone who tried to return a processor that went bad from their overclocking... so I really can't say get the OEM over the retail, or vice versa. But yes, frying your processor due to overclocking voids the warranty. But if you take the appropriate measures to keep the processor cool/stable while overclocking, you won't shorten the CPU's lifespan.

It's a misunderstanding on both of our parts. All of the Core 2 Quad processors are stable (else they wouldn't be sold), but the Q9300, with its smaller die size and lower wattage output, runs more efficiently than the Q6600. The Q6600, however, is the better overclocker. (It's not that the Q9xxx quad-cores can't overclock high, but rather most motherboards won't be able to maintain those overclocked speeds without better cooling of the northbridge... and even then, you may not be to overclock the chip as high as you'd like.)
 
This is my shopping cart - anything I should change or add? Could I potentially get a 3.4 or 3.6ghz oc with this?

Abit IP35 Pro Motherboard $231.99
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Processor $249.97
ZEROtherm Nirvana NV120 CPU Cooler $73.99
ZeroTherm ZT-100 AA Grade Thermal Grease $7.99
OCZ Reaper Dual Channel 4096MB PC6400 DDR2 800MHz Memory (2 x 2048MB) $134.99
XFX GeForce 8600 GT XXX Video Card - 256MB DDR3, SLI Ready, PCI Express, (Dual Link) Dual DVI. $99 – ($69 after rebate)
Pioneer DVR-212DBK OEM High Speed Dual Format Bulk Drive $48.99

Prices are in Canadian $$ from tigerdirect.

thanks
 
You know, your setup was looking pretty good... until I saw the 8600GT. If you plan on doing any gaming, I would recommend, at a minimum, the 8800GT. (If you could fit it into your budget, though, I'd recommend the 512MB 8800GTS... since you are using multiple monitors.)
 
I'm only doing very light gaming with this rig. It's mostly for video editing and Photoshop etc.

But maybe I'll drop the SATA DVD burner and just stick with the IDE burner I already have. - that way I could afford to go with this: EVGA GeForce 8800 GTS Video Card - 320MB GDDR3 - http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2900232&CatId=2669

Anyone used this OCZ Reaper RAM before? And is 800mhz ram the way to go for overclocking the Q6600? No need to get faster RAM, right?

The only other thing I'm worried about is that monster ZEROtherm cooler fitting in my case and not conflicting with the mobo and other components...

I have this case: http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/produc...ex=194&cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=62&g=f

Thanks again for all the help!
 
Or maybe I'll go with this one for a few $$ more: Palit GeForce 9600 GT Video Card - 512MB DDR3, PCI Express 2.0, SLI Ready, (Dual Link) DVI, HDMI, HTDV
 
If you're doing light gaming, the 8600GT is fine as long you don't expect too much out of it. Though if you want, get the 9600GT.
 
Cool. Now my final decision for this new setup will be for storage.

Right now I have:

2x 36gb 10k WD raptors in Raid 0 for system drive. (these are the older SATA-150s)

2x 500gb Seagate 7200rpm 32mb cache SATA-300s in Raid 0 for video editing storage.

I'm running Windows XP SP2.

In my new system, I'd like to have both XP and Vista dual boot. Along with my ideal storage configuration:

- System Drive(s) for 2x OS and programs (should be fast and redundant)

- 1 Terabyte for storage of mp3s, video files etc. (doesn't need to be fast, but definatley redundant)

- 1 Terabyte of high-speed storage for editing HD video. (needs to be fast, but not redundant).

I'm familiar with the basics of RAID... 0 is for faster speed but no redundancy and 1 is for redundancy. Where I get foggy is the 0+1 stuff and the 5 and 10. - I've tried to read up on it, but it just hasn't sank in... confusing i guess.

I'm wondering if I need to setup 3 seperate arrays for my needs, or if there is some way to put together 5 or 6x 500gb drives in one array that would be fast enough for all my needs and redundant as well, if one drive fails?

I'm thinking that it would probably be better just to create three seperate RAID volumes and customize them to my needs and easier to upgrade storage down the road, maybe I'm wrong.

Also, I'm so nervous about currently having my OS and programs stored on a Raid 0 volume, especially as the drives get older. The speed is great, but I HATE having to re-install, so for my new setup I want both speed and redunancy.

I doubt it's a good idea to install both XP and Vista partitions on one 36gb RAID 1 volume, due to lack of space... so maybe it's time to kiss my raptors good bye?

What kind of storage setup would you guys suggest I look into to provide what I want?

- System Drive(s) for 2x OS and programs (should be fast and redundant)

- 1 Terabyte for storage of mp3s, video files etc. (doesn't need to be fast, but definatley redundant)

- 1 Terabyte of high-speed storage for editing HD video. (needs to be fast, but not redundant).
 
That's asking a lot from us... from what you're planning, this may not come cheap. You may want to look at a stand-alone RAID controller card to achieve what you want.

For starters, here is a page that explains the various RAID levels.

You'll have to decide whether you want Vista and XP in either two separate physical drives or two partitions. If you go the latter route, you could use a RAID 1 configuration... but I'd make the drives each have a capacity of at least 250GB. The fastest non-Raptor drive out now seems to be the new single-platter 320GB drives from Western Digital, but they're still being sold with the older two-platter design in most places. (I don't know how true that last statement is in regards to Canadian stores, but it's certainly true in the U.S.)

With your limited budget (though I don't know how much you're willing to spend on a RAID array), you may want to combine your storage and video editing functions into one large RAID configuration. As an alternate suggestion, you could just purchase two large-capacity hard drives -- one for file storage and one for you video editing "scratch pad" -- and develop a way to back up the OS drive(s) and the file storage drive.

(For the file storage and video editing "drives," I can't tell you what's best. Based on what I've read, and I could be wrong, what you ultimately want to do with all three "drives" is going to cost a lot of money. And I can't offer a "suggestion" without continually wrapping my head around the cost issue.)

Do you want the XP and Vista on two separate drives or two separate partitions? And how much are you willing to spend on the RAID configuration alone?
 
Sorry, I should have added that I was planning on upgrading my storage down the road, in a few months when my credit card recovers from the mobo and cpu upgrades etc.

"Do you want the XP and Vista on two separate drives or two separate partitions?"

- Not sure what the pros and cons of each way are, so I'm open to recommendation.

I don't have a firm budget in mind for storage, I could afford up to $300-$400 right now with all my other upgrades, and more down the road- I was hoping it was something I could sort of work towards, buying drives when I can and using the onboard SATA raid and then maybe eventually getting a controller card.

I need to figure out my approach before I upgrade and install the two new OS. I'm defiinately keeping the 2x500gb segates as my storage for now, but I need to decide what to do for my system drive(s)... I could sell the raptors and get two 320gb drives in Raid 1 - partition in two for both vista and XP, or I could try and work with the raptors, maybe each one seperate - one for Vista, one for XP and then backup on the storage volume, but either way I would feel like i'm taking a performance hit from the lack of RAID 0 - which is great... I dunno.

I'm thinking the small size of the raptors is limiting my options, so maybe I really need to sell them and get something bigger for my system drive(s)...

Or, maybe a big RAID 5 array is the way to go... that website link has been helpful, but I'm wondering with RAID 5 if I start off with say 3 drives and then I buy another, can I add it to the array without loosing any data? I doubt it.

Maybe I need to get one of these drobos - but they're $$ and I don't like USB 2.0 storage...
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3143432&CatId=2778 I wish these had eSATA!!

I know that it's difficult to advise me, since I really need to kinda figure this out for myself. Thanks for that website link though - i have a better understand of the different RAID levels now. They all have their advantages and disadvantages haha... too much choice here, I think.
 
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