Abuse of folders

[BillR]

In the past few weeks it would seem that we have all seen some interesting changes in the folding at home project. Changes are not uncommon with a project of this scope; in fact they are to be expected. As for myself I don’t mind change, its part of day to day life and has a tendency to keep things interesting.

Even though we should expect change no logic in the world says you have to like it. Some changes are for the good and some not so good. Virtually the only time I have issues with change are when the changes I face are born of utter stupidity and are driven by someone’s hidden agenda or change brought about by total and complete incompetence with no thought what so ever given to the people involved.

I’m not sure what prompted these new, rushed and untested code changes and no explanation was ever given why today or tomorrow suddenly became a hard deadline and cut off point. Once again a deadline given regardless of the consequences to the users or if you like members of all the teams.

In spite of all the above I have managed to change over both my SMP clients and GPU clients and even better I have been able to make them all stable and they are producing work.

So, your next question has to be, Bill, why point out the obvious?

Glad you asked actually. We were promised new higher output work and if not promised certainly this concept was pushed as a hint.

An hour ago one of my GPU clients, the new one and one that had already turned in two work units since install caught my eye. It seemed to be frozen in time. Stopped, dead, deceased etc. My first thought was heat and a computer lock up however the SMP window was open and happily chewing on a 2665. I stopped the GPU client and restarted it and as it should it came back to its checkpoint and I ignored it for a while. I looked at it again, about a half hour later and I was on frame 3. I checked my other clients and they were rolling along at a nice clip but not this one.

I like to keep things simple so rather then get upset with the machine I decided to check here:

http://fah-web.stanford.edu/psummary.html

This for those who don’t know is Stanford’s project summery page where we are able to see the specs of the given projects.

I call your attention to project p4109 and you will see it is valued at 213 points with a preferred deadline of only 39 days. The fact is the 4109 folds more slowly then an SMP 2665 and we are all aware of how productive those are.

A quick glance around the GPU stats will show you this is not the only one like this, there are several. Clearly these units have suffered the same fate as the new code etc and nobody could have ever checked this on a benchmark machine.

While I am a strong proponent of the” points don’t matter it’s the science” idea it is obvious there is a serious problem here and once again, where is Stanford’s accountability? Who is really in charge if anyone and to whom do they answer?

This falls squarely into the abused folder category and I will under no circumstances police my boxen every few hours to delete these ridiculous work units.

As of this moment it’s unclear to me what decisions I have to make but I know that we as a team and me as an individual care more about this project then the folks running the project.

Your opinions and ideas and thoughts, please.

 

[relic]

Here's a couple of quotes from the "official forum" after a contributor (a sysadmin) asked why the SMP client was so hard to setup:

From the project leader and Mr. Arrogance himself:

by VijayPande on Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:03 am

Hi Jaga,

Sounds like you should run the classic client. It's easy to configure and it's set and forget. The SMP is for FAH experts, so if you want a easy experience, it's not for you.

Then from a "official folding forum" moderator and another of the arrogance brigade:

Re: Rocket Science?
by ChelseaOilman on Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:23 am

Jaga wrote:
The first thing I did when I installed Vista was to disable the security. That's not an issue for me here.

Since you've got it all figured out I guess you don't need any help then.

Read the original thread named "Rocket Science" to see the full level of these assholes' abuse of their contributors.

 

[DooKey]

Here's a couple of quotes from the "official forum" after a contributor (a sysadmin) asked why the SMP client was so hard to setup:

From the project leader and Mr. Arrogance himself:


Then from a "official folding forum" moderator and another of the arrogance brigade:



Read the original thread named "Rocket Science" to see the full level of these assholes' abuse of their contributors.

You hit the nail on the head, relic. And to think Oilman was a member of the horde. I hope he's not associated with us anymore.

 

[alan2308]

You hit the nail on the head, relic. And to think Oilman was a member of the horde. I hope he's not associated with us anymore.

No, he left here a while ago and hangs with team creamcicle these days.

 

[Kendrak]

The project is what it is, and the people are who they are. I have no illusions of changing how things are in this project. I have neiher the time or valition.

I fold because I want to, and if the stupidity goes to high I'll stop. But it has to get a fair bit more "special" for me to throw in the towel.

 

[APOLLO]

No, he left here a while ago and hangs with team creamcicle these days.

Yeah, but I remember one his last posts on this forum that indicated he team hops. It looked to me more like a diplomatic gesture than anything else.

 

[IronBits]

I would think that if [H] stopped folding and made a splash about it on the front page,
and/or if other teams followed suit to show solidarity,
they would be forced to take notice and you could possibly effect change,
for the betterment of all and the project.

 

[APOLLO]

I would think that if [H] stopped folding and made a splash about it on the front page,
and/or if other teams followed suit to show solidarity,
they would be forced to take notice and you could possibly effect change,
for the betterment of all and the project.

It would definitely work but I seriously doubt that would ever take place or have long-term success. Too many hard core folders around the world. If we were to suspend or even abandon our involvement, the other teams at the top would just intensify their own efforts in an attempt to seize the #1 spot.

 

[BillR]

It would definitely work but I seriously doubt that would ever take place or have long-term success. Too many hard core folders around the world. If we were to suspend or even abandon our involvement, the other teams at the top would just intensify their own efforts in an attempt to seize the #1 spot.

APOLLO, the problem is even if by some stupid chance everyone stopped folding tommorow nothing would really change. I may rant etc but we as folders are up against the worlds biggest Ego ever.

My frustration is simple, this is one of the most worthwhile projects I can imagine and yet VJ treats litteraly millions of dollars of our investments like we have no value at all.

Frankly that hurts. It's not like I want a Christmas card or anything or even a thanks, I just want to see the project done properly.

Fold on

 

[nomad8u]

I may rant etc but we as folders are up against the worlds biggest Ego ever.

It could just be Ego and in fact reads that way with many of the bullshit arrogant responses the mighty chosen ones give to questioning their software and hardware. But I wonder if it isn't more of a general intolerance of us whiny ass ignorant users that are just a necessary evil to be tolerated and abused at will so as to forgo having to purchase resources else ware.

Nahhh. I think you've got it figured out. Just a bunch of rude egotistical bastards that thrive on power and self proclamation.

Despite them and their inability to deliver timely functional client software that is documented, installable, configurable and stable after years of Beta testing, work actually gets produced. THAT's the amazing part to me.

 

[Bill Clo]

It could just be Ego and in fact reads that way with many of the bullshit arrogant responses the mighty chosen ones give to questioning their software and hardware. But I wonder if it isn't more of a general intolerance of us whiny ass ignorant users that are just a necessary evil to be tolerated and abused at will so as to forgo having to purchase resources else ware.

Nahhh. I think you've got it figured out. Just a bunch of rude egotistical bastards that thrive on power and self proclamation.

Despite them and their inability to deliver timely functional client software that is documented, installable, configurable and stable after years of Beta testing, work actually gets produced. THAT's the amazing part to me.

This is one of the big reasons I gave up on Folding. That and I didn't like the way the GPU1 client discontinuation was handled. I know the results weren't as useful as we had all hoped, but they really peed in my Cheerios the way they handled it. I now put the money into other things.

I think their egoes have gotten a little too large, and need some deflating. I know they think we peons will continue to contribute to their lofty projects, but that can change if enough people get pissed off by their attitude.

 

[BillR]

This is one of the big reasons I gave up on Folding. That and I didn't like the way the GPU1 client discontinuation was handled. I know the results weren't as useful as we had all hoped, but they really peed in my Cheerios the way they handled it. I now put the money into other things.

I think their egoes have gotten a little too large, and need some deflating. I know they think we peons will continue to contribute to their lofty projects, but that can change if enough people get pissed off by their attitude.

Hey Bill, glad to see you are still around.

I did my best to initiate an email conversation a while back with VJ. My time spent was a total loss it seems because right after those things got worse. The email exchange although cordial and polite was useless; VJ will continue to have it his way or no way at all.

One of the shocking things is the way the Stanford staff treats the few members that continue to post in their community forum. I can’t recall when I have been witness to such disrespect directed at the very people who provide them with a free service.

I truly believe it is pure unadulterated ego we are fighting and seems to tie in with all the disrespect so many institutions of higher education are facing.

It is frustrating indeed.

 

[Monkey God]

So find another project where the contributors are treated better. Unless of course the primary reason you are all doing this to keep the # 1 place (e-peen)

Lots of DC projects out there that could contribute benefits to humanity.

 

[APOLLO]

So find another project where the contributors are treated better. Unless of course the primary reason you are all doing this to keep the # 1 place (e-peen)

There are too many folders on this team to generalize with a single motive for folding. We all have our individual reasons. Some do it for the science, some for the glory. The majority fold for a little of both. I'm sure you do too.

Lots of DC projects out there that could contribute benefits to humanity.

Perhaps you could list a few?

 

[Monkey God]

There are too many folders on this team to generalize with a single motive for folding. We all have our individual reasons. Some do it for the science, some for the glory. The majority fold for a little of both. I'm sure you do too.

Perhaps you could list a few?

No I stopped folding a while back, I got sick of it for quite a few small reasons, that all added up into saying F it. I do keep an eye on things though. If things change, perhaps ill change my mind.

 

[nomad8u]

Perhaps you could list a few?

WCG is one that seems to have some worthwhile projects.

In my case, I like the spirit of competition that exists on this team regardless of whether we're 1st or 101st matters not to me. I also like the participation in this forum and idea sharing that is present here. Maybe this only happens because FAH is so forked up it needs the support forum, but I like chatting, helping and having a resource for help when it's needed.

Sure I could fold alone and get the job done and contribute on a personal level. But having a Team environment where friendly competition and camaraderie are present drives me.

/.02

 

[APOLLO]

No I stopped folding a while back, I got sick of it for quite a few small reasons, that all added up into saying F it. I do keep an eye on things though. If things change, perhaps ill change my mind.

Unfortunaley things have gotten worst this year. Besides, the GPU1 SNAFU mentioned by Bill that affected me as well, there is the constant client updating, annoying periodic expirations, software in perpetual beta status, ever-increasing client setup complexity, other application slowdowns, disproportional WU point allocation, frequent server outages, etc. I still fold though.

 

[Xilikon]

Guess I'll chime myself here :

I do agree that in the public relationship and software planning departments, they really suck a lot and having a team of drooling dogs doesn't always help. However, I will pardon them since they are primarily scientists with the primary goal of understand protein folding and trying to find some applications coming from their understanding. Like any true mad scientist, they are often hard to deal with but they are so good in what they specialize that we can afford to live with.

At least, even if it is not always possible, I was able to make Vijay Pande listen to me about the 6.22 vs 5.91/5.92 snafu and make them release the older clients for a extra beta cycle. I'm also thinking about talking with them about doing a "proper" software management system, especially the beta ones in hope to make things more smoother, leaving the most rough versions for those who are willing to tackle the extra difficulty.

The thing which make me stay in the end is mostly the great [H]orde team spirit. If we are as good as the drooling dogs they call moderators at helping people here, it's already a worthwhile enjoyment to be with the team.

To end my "speech", Fold On [H]orde !!

 

[Monkey God]

You do what you want, but it sure sounds like your making excuses for the bad behavior. Just because someone is smart or a scientist doesn't excuse them from being a douchebag or failing to properly test software.

 

[Shambler]

The douchebag part may come from acute Asperger's Syndrome


/ZING!

 

[tkam]

It just sucks how poorly the whole thing seems run, releasing a new gpu client the day before the old one expires is absurd, as is the problems people are having with the 6.22 windows smp client. It's not that hard to keep the code for all this in a version tracking system nor is it hard to test this stuff at least once or twice before releasing it to the public.

I do understand that it's mostly run by a bunch of scientists but still we are volunteering our time and money to help them accomplish their goals. They should show a little more respect and common courtesy.

 

[Xilikon]

You do what you want, but it sure sounds like your making excuses for the bad behavior. Just because someone is smart or a scientist doesn't excuse them from being a douchebag or failing to properly test software.

Maybe I'm making excuses on their behalf but try to look at the other side of the medal and notice that most clients is now out of beta, which is a good thing. The WinSMP client is still beta and it's for a good reason (lack of easy configuration and MPICH/DEINO wonkiness under Windows which wasn't designed for clustering in the first place while Linux is).

I wasn't treated as a douchebag by Vijay when I talked to him about the concerns about the latest 6.22 beta being pushed harshly and he actually listened to me. He even took my suggestion to release 5.91 again with a new expiration date to allow them to work freely on new releases. This alone is a good reason for me to stick.

Like I said above, I agree that in the public relations skills dept, they are lacking seriously and they should hire a counselor to help in this dept. Like that, they can concentrate on what they excel. Also, it's impossible to please such a large crowd comprised of computer experts and pure n00bs in the mix so some compromises need to be done. That's exactly what they did by offering a very large range of clients to pick and use.

Don't think of this as ass-kissing of the Pande Group, I'm just merely sharing what I understand about their struggle to offer what people offer. Sometime, it's not always easy to decide (think of like deciding between saving a old woman from being crushed by a train while a kid is almost drowning at the same time...).

 

[APOLLO]

I wasn't treated as a douchebag by Vijay when I talked to him about the concerns about the latest 6.22 beta being pushed harshly and he actually listened to me. He even took my suggestion to release 5.91 again with a new expiration date to allow them to work freely on new releases. This alone is a good reason for me to stick.

Thanks Xilikon, your efforts are a godsend.

 

[Xilikon]

Matter of fact, I just wrote a lengthy PM to Vijay about the whole clients management fiasco with a list of suggestions. I hope he will take my suggestion in account and make the next cycle more enjoyable. A example is to freeze the features and bug fixes on client X 3 weeks before the deadline so we concentrate on fixing any showstopper bug until it's stable enough to be released 1 week before deadlines. Another is to tell that it's bad manners to release it just a few hours before the deadline.

 

[APOLLO]

Matter of fact, I just wrote a lengthy PM to Vijay about the whole clients management fiasco with a list of suggestions. I hope he will take my suggestion in account and make the next cycle more enjoyable. A example is to freeze the features and bug fixes on client X 3 weeks before the deadline so we concentrate on fixing any showstopper bug until it's stable enough to be released 1 week before deadlines. Another is to tell that it's bad manners to release it just a few hours before the deadline.

What really pissed me off was when one machine had to reboot and I found out all 5 clients on that system were expired; and, a message box appeared stating that the clients expired on August 2. It was August 1....

 

[BillR]

Actually, I fold for the sex

 

[Xilikon]

What really pissed me off was when one machine had to reboot and I found out all 5 clients on that system were expired , and a message box appeared stating that the clients expired on August 2. It was August 1....

Yeah, guess it was due to the fact that Stanford used the UTC as expiration date so for parts of the globe, it's earlier than this.

 

[jws2346]

The douchebag part may come from acute Asperger's Syndrome


/ZING!

Hey Shambler, I'll admit my "Neurons" don't always nueron and my Synaptics don't always synapt, but you seemed to have "hit the nail right on the head" with the Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis. After looking up Asperger's Syndrome I came to the conclusion that Asperger's Syndrome most definitely discribes some of the officials and "wanna be" officials in the F@H project. The way I read the article it primarily affects children, maybe they should include douchebag adults also (thank God all the officials don't suffer from Asperger's Syndrome )

Thank "a-moondo" (means a lot) and thanks for the education Shambler, does F@H try to find a cure for Asperger's Syndrome or is it researched by another DC program

Edit: I just thought of something (global warming in here again). The way we should look at the [H]orde folding team 33 being the #1 folding team in the whole world and known universe, is it's an educational thing for learning how to be "humble" (e-penis ). You know what they always say "it's hards to be humble when you're numero uno". (or something like that)

FOLD ON!

 

[Pocatello]

Actually, I fold for the sex

Can I borrow your goat?

 

[SmokeRngs]

I think one of the big problems we have with clients and the beta status is actually understated. For those of you who are relatively new (I'm talking about people who haven't been around for at least 3-4 years and I mean no offense by that) you don't realize how bad the clients used to be. Trust me, what we're seeing now in at least some of the beta clients is actually better than what we had to deal with with non-beta clients years ago.

Do not take this the wrong way, I'm not defending Stanford at all. Basically, it looks like the only thing they learned from the previous experiences is that they can get away with the same shit by calling the clients beta. That's not a solution, obviously.

I think much of the problem boils down to what Stanford has come to expect from many of us and have taken it for granted. For many years, a lot of us have been more than willing to help and figure out the bugs and workarounds for the shitty clients. Stanford thinks that we should continue to do this even though it's obvious the project and the resources allocated to the project on Stanford's side have increased greatly.

However, since the project has grown so much larger on the contributor side, it's almost impossible to keep so many people happy. A lot of people want a set it and forget it client because they don't want to take the time or even have the time to deal with all the quirks and bugs. I don't blame those people one bit. I've been at this for years and I'm still wanting a damn client that "just works".

Stanford does not have a small core of "maniacs" that will do just about anything to get the clients running anymore. There are too many other people who want to run the clients as well.

This is where ego comes into play. Stanford still expects everyone contributing to the project to act like that small core of maniacs and it's not going to happen. The realities of life get in the way of that. Until Stanford finally realizes that the reality has changed, nothing is going to change for us.

 

[EvilAlchemist]

I am late to the thread, but here is my take ...

I do see where everyone is coming from on certain issue, but many are missing so facts.

Issue 1: Client being released one date before exp.

As some know / don't know , uncle fuzzy (Foldingforums user) is now helping to write clients for F@H.
Since I (and a few others) are on the Beta Team, it was a last minute pust to get 6.20 working.
As I recall, 6.17 - 6.18 - 6.19 took some time to debug and get the features working correctly.
I remember 6.17 & 6.18 had tons of problems and only lasted a few days each.
If 6.20 had been released and not working .. even more would be upset.
So, if it takes time to get it working so be it ... it just happens some time ....

Issue 2) Clients in constant Beta Status

This happened because of Windows & SMP.
SMP in windows is a new thing. Everyone is having a hard time with this
That is why the Linux Client went out of beta before the Win client.
Now that they have uncle fuzzy working on the clients as well, this has helped the situation a great deal.

I am sure there are more issues but that is what i have to say right now.

I am not taking up for the way some ppl act over there, esp 7im (bastard) .. but there are some things going on in the backgorund ..

IF you really want to be "in the loop" go over to the FoldingForums and sign up for the Beta Testers Section...

I think if you get in, you will have a new perspective on some of these issues ....

 

[SoL]

I wish I had something witty or insightful to add to the argument but I don't. Some things never change. Don't bother flaming me for sounding negative.

...you don't realize how bad the clients used to be.

I gave up folding a few years ago for this very reason. Well... that reason and the fact that my apartment sounded like a frickin' wind tunnel. The addiction was pretty bad back then.

 

[Kendrak]

I wish I had something witty or insightful to add to the argument but I don't. Some things never change. Don't bother flaming me for sounding negative.



I gave up folding a few years ago for this very reason. Well... that reason and the fact that my apartment sounded like a frickin' wind tunnel. The addiction was pretty bad back then.

Ever thought of starting back up?

The GPU client is easy and does a bunch for the program.

 

[Sunin]

What you need to keep in mind is the reason you are doing this not how anyone acts behind the scenes... Noone can manage a project as well as one would think and the reasons vary... We never know the whole story. I'm no VJ fanboy or 7im for that matter, since I see them driving people away at times, but your in this for one reason. For the Science. To help humanity... remember that and over look the little peons. I know one thing in life Karma definitely rules.. those that climb so high and abuse their powers fall ever so hard with a big fat thud! So stay positive look to the good your doing!

Fold [H]ard!

 

[Kendrak]

those that climb so high and abuse their powers fall ever so hard with a big fat thud! So stay positive look to the good your doing!

From your job I bet you get to see that first hand

 

[lelliott731]

What you need to keep in mind is the reason you are doing this not how anyone acts behind the scenes... Noone can manage a project as well as one would think and the reasons vary... We never know the whole story. I'm no VJ fanboy or 7im for that matter, since I see them driving people away at times, but your in this for one reason. For the Science. To help humanity... remember that and over look the little peons. I know one thing in life Karma definitely rules.. those that climb so high and abuse their powers fall ever so hard with a big fat thud! So stay positive look to the good your doing!

Fold [H]ard!

Amen Sunin!!!

 

[BillR]

Can I borrow your goat?

First and foremost, we are talking sheep not goat. There is an anatomic differential to consider there. Second, relic has already called dibbs and transport has begun. (I might point out that UPS can be real pricks about livestock)

Time for some ultimate irony. I was watching the science channel tonight and it was the final program in a series about building autonomous robotic automobiles. Pretty interesting stuff actually but the best part was last year Stanford took first place and got a strong second place this year beating the crap out of the likes of MIT etc. The high scores were credited to Stanford’s superior coding abilities.

I kid you not

 

[nomad8u]

Can I borrow your goat?

relic has already called dibbs and transport has begun.

Just as well Pocatello.. rumor has it the goat.. err sheep wasn't properly stump broke anyway.

 

[Xilikon]

First and foremost, we are talking sheep not goat. There is an anatomic differential to consider there. Second, relic has already called dibbs and transport has begun. (I might point out that UPS can be real pricks about livestock)

Time for some ultimate irony. I was watching the science channel tonight and it was the final program in a series about building autonomous robotic automobiles. Pretty interesting stuff actually but the best part was last year Stanford took first place and got a strong second place this year beating the crap out of the likes of MIT etc. The high scores were credited to Stanford’s superior coding abilities.

I kid you not

LOL, guess the coders work in the wrong dept

What's more ironical ? Adam Beberg himself is not a biologist or anything related to the medical field, he is a true software engineer pursuing a PhD in Computer Engineering. He is also the founder and president of distributed.net, where I made the debut.

I'm also a computer engineer but nowhere near him ( I'm just a graduate) and I know more about software cycle management and cvs management

 

[Sunin]

LOL, guess the coders work in the wrong dept

What's more ironical ? Adam Beberg himself is not a biologist or anything related to the medical field, he is a true software engineer pursuing a PhD in Computer Engineering. He is also the founder and president of distributed.net, where I made the debut.

I'm also a computer engineer but nowhere near him ( I'm just a graduate) and I know more about software cycle management and cvs management

Ah your learning the one truth in this world it is WHO you know not what you know...