a very interesting find guyz I think u should read

Thanks for the linky, very interesting indeed. Makes me wonder of OCZ's memory once again...
 
Good article!

I once made the mistake of using OCZ memory, only to discover that its primary constituent element was dog sh*t!

Personal experience tells me OCZ is of poor quality. Maximum PC demonstrated OCZ is of poor quality. And Overclockers.com has demonstrated poor quality in OCZ products.

I see a trend, here.:rolleyes:
 
i have never liked anything OCZ has had to offer, too expensive for a product that is all hype...
 
Ummm.. That doesn't sound right at all.

Just because a "litmus" test product does not react with an agent that supposedly exists inside a compound does not mean it is not there. Trust me, I took chemistry all the way to the end... of my sanity.

What can be happening is that the silver particles are so well suspended, or encapsulated, that the "characteristic" parts of the silver no longer apply, including is chemical reactivity. This is also why many silver pastes are non-conductive (only slightly capacitive) when regular metal silver is one of the best conductors.

what that test proves to me is that the OCZ and CompUSA compound are in a suspension state that is BETTER than AS. Which means if you accidentally smear it on a trace, its got a chance of survival.

This is the same idea of transporting nuclear material in a suspended state inside a carbon-40 "buckyball" atom. The radioactive properties can be greatly reduced in this suspended state.
 
That was my first thought here too. These products are doped with other elements to work as thermal pastes anyway, which might fudge the result of the litmus test..

We need more chemists to step up and provide some clues.. :cool:
 
Right, lemme fire up my mass spectrometer so we can figure out how much Ag is actually in this stuff.

There may be another, simpler method though. Silver has a specific density. If the product is advertised to contain XX.X% silver, then a given volume of paste would have to have at least the mass associated with that amount of Ag, whether in suspension or not. If it has less, then we know something is amiss.
 
I was just about to suggest the spectrometer ;)

But that would probably be overkill, and I don't know of too many people who have access to one.

I'm not to sure weighing it would mean much. OCZ2 premium silver paste does come in a much larger container, and just from personal use, it does seem to be less dense than AS3/5.

But, it also seems to be more elastic and sticky. I'm thinking that it might be squishing under pressure a little like a marshmallow. Many "filler" and doping products have this characteristic.

But regardless, I've tried both AS3 and OCZ2, and given a decent amount of pressure on the heatsink, both have about the same heat transfer ability. OCZ2 is harder to spread, but it tends to stay where you put it (doesn't run as much IMO) I'd like to know which one is more capacitive, especially for GPU's because they often have open circuitry on the top.
 
They should have done resistance tests as well. I think these findings are really intresting though. Is it a rock solid conclusion? probably not, but it definately warrants further testing.
 
Originally posted by ZenOps
Ummm.. That doesn't sound right at all.

Just because a "litmus" test product does not react with an agent that supposedly exists inside a compound does not mean it is not there. Trust me, I took chemistry all the way to the end... of my sanity.

What can be happening is that the silver particles are so well suspended, or encapsulated, that the "characteristic" parts of the silver no longer apply, including is chemical reactivity. This is also why many silver pastes are non-conductive (only slightly capacitive) when regular metal silver is one of the best conductors.

what that test proves to me is that the OCZ and CompUSA compound are in a suspension state that is BETTER than AS. Which means if you accidentally smear it on a trace, its got a chance of survival.

This is the same idea of transporting nuclear material in a suspended state inside a carbon-40 "buckyball" atom. The radioactive properties can be greatly reduced in this suspended state.
Click to expand...





I STAND BY MY RESULTS 100% And furthermore my conclusions are 100% correct, They are also certified to be true by an independent source which will run in part 2 of my article. Do you think I am stupid enough to finger point without absolute proof I am correct?

My Litmus test is correct and you are wrong about your suspension theory.

Want to bet me $1000? I'll give you 500 to 1 odds


Silversink
 
Fine, sue OCZ if you want to I could care less, dont get huffy at me. Im just stating facts as I know them.

Litmus is just about as accurate as an electrical test. A compound that is 90 percent silver would conduct electricity and be reactive if it were a solid metal.

It is NOT a solid metal though, and it can be made in such a way that the only property that is evident is the heat transfer ability.

Siver nitrate (like used in film) is highly reactive, as is pure silver. Silver oxides and Silver borons? are supposed to be relatively inert both electrically and chemically.
 
Haha, jebus. Out come the bruised egos -- but there is no need to get defensive here, I think.

I think that given the rampant bandwagon jumping we see on this board with everybody chanting together "OCZ sux" (having personally never owned OCZ memory I will NOT jump on this bandwagon myself), challenges to your article are perfectly valid, especially when the we don't have the whole story (you yourself indicate there is a part 2 of your article -- why bother jumping the gun and not waiting till you had the all of the dirt to show us?). We should ALWAYS be suspicious of any claim and any results. If you claim to use scientific means to show something you should also understand that scientific claims are subject to peer review.

And we're all peers here, right? :D :D

Personally, I'm actually not "siding" with either viewpoint at this stage -- there could be silver , there very well might not be. We've seen too many debates fly both ways in spite of "I betchya"s and such. Since there are more angles to this than the simple presence of unadulterated silver and there is evidence that you can't always rely on a litmus test when there are other compounds involved, I'm going to calmly back away and develop a wait-and-see attitude about this one..

So out with it...
 
Originally posted by __Maad__
Haha, jebus. Out come the bruised egos -- but there is no need to get defensive here, I think.

I think that given the rampant bandwagon jumping we see on this board with everybody chanting together "OCZ sux" (having personally never owned OCZ memory I will NOT jump on this bandwagon myself), challenges to your article are perfectly valid, especially when the we don't have the whole story (you yourself indicate there is a part 2 of your article -- why bother jumping the gun and not waiting till you had the all of the dirt to show us?). We should ALWAYS be suspicious of any claim and any results. If you claim to use scientific means to show something you should also understand that scientific claims are subject to peer review.

And we're all peers here, right? :D :D

Personally, I'm actually not "siding" with either viewpoint at this stage -- there could be silver , there very well might not be. We've seen too many debates fly both ways in spite of "I betchya"s and such. Since there are more angles to this than the simple presence of unadulterated silver and there is evidence that you can't always rely on a litmus test when there are other compounds involved, I'm going to calmly back away and develop a wait-and-see attitude about this one..

So out with it...
Click to expand...


I agree, I'm not saying OCZ 'Sux', I happen to like OCZ and I feel they have made allot of progress from some of the problems they faced in the past. I am saying this paste has no silver in it. My topical tests have been confirmed by a lab and two PH D's that have provided me a 3 page detailed analysis.

I will release this report in part 2 of my review. I also am allowing OCZ and Compusa the opportunity to investigate and fix this matter. The ball is in their court.
 
Originally posted by ZenOps
Ummm.. That doesn't sound right at all.

Just because a "litmus" test product does not react with an agent that supposedly exists inside a compound does not mean it is not there. Trust me, I took chemistry all the way to the end... of my sanity.

What can be happening is that the silver particles are so well suspended, or encapsulated, that the "characteristic" parts of the silver no longer apply, including is chemical reactivity. This is also why many silver pastes are non-conductive (only slightly capacitive) when regular metal silver is one of the best conductors.

what that test proves to me is that the OCZ and CompUSA compound are in a suspension state that is BETTER than AS. Which means if you accidentally smear it on a trace, its got a chance of survival.

This is the same idea of transporting nuclear material in a suspended state inside a carbon-40 "buckyball" atom. The radioactive properties can be greatly reduced in this suspended state.
Click to expand...

Bad logic there. Let's presume that his test MIGHT yield false negatives... ...the test doesn't then prove "the OCZ and CompUSA compound are in a suspension state that is BETTER than AS". You'd still have to at least prove that they DID contain silver to approximately the promised degree.
 
That's a good point, later today in this thread I will show you something intersting. OCZ Ultra II has a Silicone base (OCZ says on their site its polysynthetic oils based. I'm telling you its silicone, well the X-ray Photoelectron spectroscopy test/Elliptical X-Ray Spot with the burn off showed this to be the case


Anyway Arctic Silver II also is Silicone based and I will show you that Arctic Silver II despite it being silicone based will topiclly test positive for silver.

The Chemical Analysis By X-ray Photoelectron spectroscopy lab tests and all the tests run also concure with what i just stated.

The lab report will be in Part 2 of my review.
 
Let us all know when Part 2 comes out. Hell, send an e-mail to Kyle; he'd probably be interested.
 
Originally posted by AggieMEEN
Let us all know when Part 2 comes out. Hell, send an e-mail to Kyle; he'd probably be interested.
Click to expand...

Part 1 Is on the frontpage of [H] ----[H]ardNews 7th Edition ;)
 
I arrived kinda late to this thread but, lemme tell you...
COOL...

If what Silversink says is true (and being somewhat of a chemist i agree with him so far) this means a lot. I mean, thermal paste is meant for enthusiast users which have some knowledge of hardware...

They must really think we are all stupid...

Makes you wonder what other product (or products) out there say "SILVER" and don't squat of it...
 
I'm poor. I use AS3 or generic thermal paste. I might get some ceramique (I want it for the permanancy of it), or AS-5 (AS5 looks bad if you know any l33t), but it's looking like ceramique because it's cheaper on newegg.

Someone, er, send me a free sample of AS-5? :D :p ;)

Honestly, I could care less how much of a given element in a given thermal paste is. All I car about is the fact that it works as advertised, and isn't conductive to the point where I will fry things if I'm too stupid with it. :p
 
Sorry if this is a lottle OT, but this thread made me think of this for some reason. :D

AS_Overdose.bmp
 
good thing i got the arctic 5, it doesn't matter anyways arctic 5 is the best shit out there and i would buy anything else, you don't want to buy the best shit and the put the worst thermal paste you can find on it, ie ocz(not bad but not good), arctic is the way to go you all
 
Just for reference, when you "ionize" a product (or to put it properly, de-ionize) you usually render the substance chemically and electrically inert.

Most Silver pastes are ionized at a molecular level (what paste-makers like to call micro-ionization) It is also why it doesn't "rust" or tarnish compared to when a piece of solid pure metal (like iron or silver) is left out in the air and moisture.

I don't know if OCZ2 contains silver or not. If it doesn't it probably is the best silcone paste I have ever seen (in which case I would highly recommend it over many pastes, as it for sure would be electrically non-conductive) outside of AS ceramique.

It is possible to coat an ionized solid metal on a base metal that will not rust or react to chemicals. It is not the same procedure as anodizing aluminum BTW. That jewellers indicator is no longer effective tool at even indicating metal silver content, especially ionized silver. It is only good at recognizing "pure" raw metal silver, which is very rare nowadays (only found in coins, silverware and non-ionized or non-anodized rings)

AS5 is the best, but AS3 and OCZ2 are pretty good. I don't think you will see more than a degree of difference between them. OCZ2 is "cheaper" I can get that big tube for $2Cdn (about $1.50US) which does make me wonder if it does use Silverl/how much silver, as its getting dangerously close to being "too cheap".
 
Originally posted by Silversink
I'm telling you its silicone, well the X-ray Photoelectron spectroscopy test/Elliptical X-Ray Spot with the burn off showed this to be the case
Click to expand...


uh, duh... the electrrons photon ions are travelling at such intergalactic speeds, your Xray Photoelectron spectrsoscopy test and Elliptical XRay aren't magnifiying to such a degree and can't grab it.



umm, i'm just kidding, ^ in a nerd, geeky voice^

hope to see results, and hear what OCZ and Compusa have to say.

OCZ says they're investigating it, but they buy their paste from a supplier.... so,,
 
Originally posted by Stang Man
OCZ says they're investigating it, but they buy their paste from a supplier.... so,,
Click to expand...

Probably the same supplier as CompUSA :)
 
Originally posted by ZenOps
Just for reference, when you "ionize" a product (or to put it properly, de-ionize) you usually render the substance chemically and electrically inert.

Most Silver pastes are ionized at a molecular level (what paste-makers like to call micro-ionization) It is also why it doesn't "rust" or tarnish compared to when a piece of solid pure metal (like iron or silver) is left out in the air and moisture.

I don't know if OCZ2 contains silver or not. If it doesn't it probably is the best silcone paste I have ever seen (in which case I would highly recommend it over many pastes, as it for sure would be electrically non-conductive) outside of AS ceramique.

It is possible to coat an ionized solid metal on a base metal that will not rust or react to chemicals. It is not the same procedure as anodizing aluminum BTW. That jewellers indicator is no longer effective tool at even indicating metal silver content, especially ionized silver. It is only good at recognizing "pure" raw metal silver, which is very rare nowadays (only found in coins, silverware and non-ionized or non-anodized rings)

AS5 is the best, but AS3 and OCZ2 are pretty good. I don't think you will see more than a degree of difference between them. OCZ2 is "cheaper" I can get that big tube for $2Cdn (about $1.50US) which does make me wonder if it does use Silverl/how much silver, as its getting dangerously close to being "too cheap".
Click to expand...


Perhaps this will enlighten this discussion:


Although this article was initially conducted using a topical test, it should be noted that OCZ Ultra II Silver Premium Compound, and Compusa's Silver Grease was also sent to a Laboratory to validate my results which will be in a Part 2 Article.( I have the lab reports and only posted my article after my findings were confirmed by hard science) The Lab report was done with spectroscopy testing (XPS) combined with Elliptical X-Ray Spot testing with 'burn off'.

OCZ Ultra II Silver Thermal Compound and Compusa's Silver Paste are composed of Aluminum Oxide in a Polymeric binder of dimethyl Siloxane (silicone) and it contains an organic Silver coloring to give it a silver 'appearance'. The lab report also states that OCZ Ultra II Premium Silver compound AND Compusa's silver grease were most likely made by the same manufacturer and their chemical makeup was the same . That I found interesting

The Lab reports and my topical test clearly and unequivocally show there is ZERO silver in either OCZ Ultra II and COMPUSA's SILVER grease. Compusa has ignored all requests about this product.


OCZ has contacted me and they seem genuinely concerned and are investigating this with their own independent lab testing. We will see if their results concur with my lab results.

So very soon I will release part 2 and we will see where we are at that point.

Heres what their websites state, and I disagree and both these Sites are wrong and they are misrepresenting both the products.

Compusa:
http://www.compusa.com/products/pro...&pfp=SEARCH

2 pack; 97% pure micronized silver
75-80% silver content by weight
Thermal conductivity 8.2 w/m degrees Kelvin
External Temp. Limits; -60 degrees to 170 degrees

OCZ:
http://www.ocztechnology.com/produc...hermal_Compound

Thermal paste 3 gram syringe
Thermal conductivity: 8.0 W/mK
Thermal Resistance:>.06 C-in/W
Made with 99.9% pure micronized silver
Over 70% silver content by weight
Not electrically conductive
 
PS ZENOPS "I don't know if OCZ2 contains silver or not. If it doesn't it probably is the best silcone paste I have ever seen "


Maybe your not aware of this but OCZ's site says this:


"OCZ Ultra 2 uses a blend of polysynthetic oils that ensure that the compound will not solidify or lose its thermal transfer properties over time."

It's intersting you mention its Silicone as my lab tests also confirm this to be silicone, but OCZ's state say it isnt. There is a BIG difference between polysynthetic oils and dimethyl Siloxane (silicone) ;)

The only product that I am aware of that is Silicone based and actually has silver in it is Arctic Silver II. (And I have tested that as well and will be shown in Part2)
 
how about you do ask some one above stated....checkthe silver's density on a the table of elements, weigh out 1 cc of it and see how much it weighs, if the number's dont line up at all we'll stfu but if it fit it might be soemthing like the guy said about suspension...
 
Originally posted by boardsportsrule
how about you do ask some one above stated....checkthe silver's density on a the table of elements, weigh out 1 cc of it and see how much it weighs, if the number's dont line up at all we'll stfu but if it fit it might be soemthing like the guy said about suspension...
Click to expand...

Wow that was really hard to read.

Onto the testing you are referring to: That is normally done with things that are consitiered pure. It also is easier with larger amounts. Being that this is a compound, you would have to pretty much know the mass of every single ingredient and the exact percentages of them(not just within 5 percent).

That would be like saying, "Hey throw this twix bar into a glass of water.......good have it measured?........ok, tell me how much caramel is in it."
 
Originally posted by boardsportsrule
...weigh out 1 cc of it and see how much it weighs,...
Click to expand...

I can make a guess at how the results would turn out... Something tells me spectroscopy and x-ray analysis will be a little more accurate than your test.
 
Originally posted by ZenOps
Just for reference, when you "ionize" a product (or to put it properly, de-ionize) you usually render the substance chemically and electrically inert.

Most Silver pastes are ionized at a molecular level (what paste-makers like to call micro-ionization) It is also why it doesn't "rust" or tarnish compared to when a piece of solid pure metal (like iron or silver) is left out in the air and moisture.

...
Click to expand...

Umm... among other things:

"Ionize" and "deionize" are complete opposites.

"micronized" != "micro-ionized" http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=micronized

And the reason they don't tarnish is that the silver particles are coated with oil (or there's no silver content in the first place *cough*OCZ/CompUSA*cough*).
 
http://www.ocztechnology.com/displaypage.php?name=recall


OCZ would like to take this time to address the recent article published at Overclockers.com, which shows that OCZ Ultra 2 thermal compound has no silver content.

OCZ does not manufacture Ultra 2 thermal compound in house, it is provided by a foreign manufacturer with our specifications. Previous independent lab tests conducted at the request of OCZ have shown that the silver compound content in Ultra 2 is 25% by volume and 70% by weight.

In response to this article, OCZ has submitted another batch of Ultra 2 to a third party for extensive lab testing. This Independent lab report show’s that the most recent batch of OCZ Ultra 2 indeed contains less than 1% silver by volume. While simultaneously we have received lab reports from an outside source indicating the silver content to be 30% by weight. This leads us to the conclusion that recent batch(s) of OCZ Ultra 2 from our supplier did not meet the agreed specifications.

We accept full responsibility for these problems and we will be seeking legal action against our supplier.

In order to help solve this problem we have contacted Arctic Silver Inc, and entered into a vendor agreement with them to supply OCZ thermal paste.

Beginning January 22nd 2004 we are issuing a full recall of any and all OCZ Ultra 2.

Any Customers who wish to return OCZ Ultra 2 thermal paste with an invoice will in exchange for their full or partially used tube(s) receive:
1- One (dependant on # of tubes returned) 3-gram OCZ thermal Compound (made by Arctic Silver Inc.) or one OCZ Dominator 2 Heatsink.
2- One OCZ EL DDR T-Shirt
3- One 10 dollar off rebate on any OCZ EL DDR Dual Channel Kit (at participating resellers)

For more Information or instructions on returning your ultra 2 please email [email protected]





I would like to commend OCZ for investigating this once I brought it to their attention and commend OCZ's quick action. I truly was shocked to discover the absence of Silver and I am truly grateful for OCZ's Owner and Staff to quickly find a remedy.

I will write an article or an editorial to praise OCZ's actions shortly. OCZ did not turn a blind eye to this situation like Compusa has, and continues to do.

Silversinksam
 
Wow, it looks like a case of "gave the vendor good stuff then switched shipments to less expensive stuff when the vendor wasn't looking" by the OEM of the compound. I am also pleased with OCZ's swift action.

I'd like to thank you Silversinksam, you've helped the enthusiast company more than you know :)
 
Originally posted by PliotronX
Wow, it looks like a case of "gave the vendor good stuff then switched shipments to less expensive stuff when the vendor wasn't looking" by the OEM of the compound. I am also pleased with OCZ's swift action.

I'd like to thank you Silversinksam, you've helped the enthusiast company more than you know :)
Click to expand...
 
The lab report also states that OCZ Ultra II Premium Silver compound AND Compusa's silver grease were most likely made by the same manufacturer and their chemical makeup was the same .
Click to expand...

So I was right :)

I would take a guess that CompUSA is going to probably say the same thing. As if it is, infact the same maker, both were probably bait and switched. They supply real stuff for the first month, then give synthetic stuff to fool them.

I commend OCZ on their very quick response to this.
 
OCZ = good company

You guys cant argue with what they just did for the OC community.

I dont see why so many people have such a problem with OCZ, I happen to love how OCZ has turned themselves around from what they were previously.

Ignorance spread by more ignorance is no way of judging a company.
 
Originally posted by killernoodle
OCZ = good company

You guys cant argue with what they just did for the OC community.

I dont see why so many people have such a problem with OCZ, I happen to love how OCZ has turned themselves around from what they were previously.

Ignorance spread by more ignorance is no way of judging a company.
Click to expand...

Hence I haven't judged OCZ yet. :p No real experience with them.

Time for me to get some Ceramique. Gotta try that stuff...
 
I've always used Arctic silver brand products. Arctic silver 2 in my older systems, and now AS5 in my new rigs. Arctic silver is what I recommend to all my friends.
 
Props to OCZ for doing the right thing this time. No assclown employees coming on and spouting BS like in the past.

Since their product will now be produced by Arctic Silver... why buy OCZ instead of Arctic Silver in the future? Somehow I doubt Arctic Silver will produce product for OCZ superior to product they sell under their own label...
 
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