A comparison: 193P Plus vs VP191b

Vol

Limp Gawd
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I bought a Samsung 193P Plus (8 ms GtG) two weeks ago. I wasn’t satisfied with it as I noticed ghosting when gaming. I had 14 days to get a refund if I choose to. After the two weeks I decided that I would bring it back and buy a VP191b instead since there are so much good reviews about it. So, the same day that I was supposed to bring back my 193 P Plus I bought a VP191b. Before getting rid of the 193P Plus I thought that I could compare it with the VP191b. To do the comparison I put one monitor in clone mode. I tested both with DVI and analogue. The games I tried are: GTA SA, BF2 (demo) and SW commandos. I also run the flag test and the car test from the little programs called pixeleted-something (I don’t remember the name correctly). While comparing both, my wife stood next to me so I could have a second opinion. Here is what we noticed:

Color: 193P Plus > VP191b
The color are more “alive”, more vibrant with the 193P Plus. The black is black on the 193P Plus and it is grey on the VP191b. There was so much difference between the two in terms of colors that I almost stop testing at that point since the 193P Plus was so much better that I was already convince that I wouldn’t return it.

Response Time 193P Plus = VP191b
I didn’t notice any difference at all. Like I said previously, I can see ghosting on the 193P Plus and I noticed it too on the VP191b. It seems I’m one of those that can see ghosting even with the fast LCD :( By the way, my wife didn’t see any ghosting on either of the screens; that agrees with the fact that most people doesn’t see ghosting with the VP191b.

Car test and Flag test 193P Plus = VP191b
Looking at the cars going from right to left there was no difference whatsoever between the two. Same thing with the Flag Test, they looked the same on both.

Backlight 193P Plus > VP191b
Not sure if backlight is the right tern here… Anyway, on the VP191b I noticed that the corners where a bit lighter when there was a lot of dark colors or black on the screen. I didn’t notice any of this with the 193P Plus.

Non-native resolution 193P Plus > VP191b
Not much to say, it looks good on both but it is slightly better on the 193P Plus.

Design 193P Plus > VP191b
This is not something that I really care about usually but the gap is so big between the two that it hits you in the face. The 193P Plus is so much better. The stand of the 193P Plus looks to be much more stronger than the VP191b. You can rotate the 193 P Plus 180° while the VP191b is only 90°. You can flip the 193P Plus from facing you to facing the ceiling and even more (so you can fix it on a wall if you want). The VP191b can only tilt a bit. I’m 6’4’’ and I need to tilt the screen upward a lot so my vision is looking 90° of the surface of the screen. I wasn’t able to do so with the VP191b. The only better thing on the VP191b is that the stand can go higher making the screen go higher, a bit. Anyway, I still need to put something under the screen so it is at the right height.

The plug’s entry on the 193P Plus are at 90° of the panel, making it easy to tighten the screw of the cables. On the VP191b, the entries are parallel to the panel and very close to it, making it very, very difficult to tighten.

Visually, the 193P Plus looks better IMO. The offset between the border and the screen are almost inexistent while it is ¼’’ on the VP191b. The 193P Plus looks way more stylish too.

Conclusion: 193P Plus > VP191b
This is a no brainer for me here, I’m keeping my 193 P Plus. I was lucky when I took back the VP191b to the shop as they didn’t notice that I opened the box. Otherwise I would only have been refund 85%, which I would have paid (15%) since I wouldn’t want to keep the VP191b. If you are only looking for a gaming LCD and really don’t mind about colors, blackness, design and backlight then got for the VP191b as it have the same speed while gaming then the 193P Plus. But, there is only 80$ (can) difference before the taxes between the two. You might want to put that 80 and get the 193P Plus instead though. The colors alone are worth it.

I hope this help some people to make a choice for their next LCD.
 

wuggle

Weaksauce
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Jul 2, 2005
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106
Great review! I was having problems deciding between getting a VP191b or something else and now you got me thinking about the 193P...
 

Drags

Gawd
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great little comparison Vol :) very helpful

got a couple of questions if you dont mind. mostly i was concerned about your observations about colours on the VP191B. Did you calibrate the monitor before use at all or are you using stock settings? Did you run it through a proper calibration tool? were you using it on 6500k or 5000k colour mode?

only reason i ask is that advanced testing at THG and BeHardware have shown the panel has very good colour reproduction, but interesting to hear user experiences here first hand
 

Vol

Limp Gawd
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I didn’t calibrate the monitor. When I installed the 193P Plus I didn’t notice any difference before and after the color calibration so I thought it would be the same with the VP191b. It’s a shame I didn’t try to calibrate the VP191b. I wonder how much difference it could have made... can anyone who have a VP191b tell how big the difference is before and after calibration?
 

datamage

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Vol,

Calibration is extremely important, as most monitors don't come properly calibrated from the start. When I first received my VP191b the colors were way off in comparison to my 2005FPW, to the point that I didn't want to use the monitor. After tinkering with the OSD, and my video card gamma settings, I'm glad I gave it a shot.

- D.
 
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Vol said:
Conclusion: 193P Plus > VP191b
This is a no brainer for me here, I’m keeping my 193 P Plus. I was lucky when I took back the VP191b to the shop as they didn’t notice that I opened the box. Otherwise I would only have been refund 85%, which I would have paid (15%) since I wouldn’t want to keep the VP191b. If you are only looking for a gaming LCD and really don’t mind about colors, blackness, design and backlight then got for the VP191b as it have the same speed while gaming then the 193P Plus. But, there is only 80$ (can) difference before the taxes between the two. You might want to put that 80 and get the 193P Plus instead though. The colors alone are worth it.

I hope this help some people to make a choice for their next LCD.

Validation! I KNEW that the 193p+ was the best 19'' LCD on the market and now that there has been an acutal comparison I am even more sure. Right now the ONLY thing that the vp191b has over the 193p+ is price. But if price is your major concern there are plenty of super cheap LCDs out there that will cost you MUCH less than the vp191b. If you are looking for the best, you may pay more but with the 193p+, that's what you will get.

The Dark One
 

Slider19

Gawd
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Good post Vol, but I still would want a major website to review the two side by side.
 

Drags

Gawd
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as said, calibration is important, and some TFT's come extremely off on default settings......take a look at BeHardware's reviews for example, there are some which are very bad before calibraiton, but after a bit of fiddling, they come out very very good. Regardless of that party of the comparison, the other aspects you have compared were certainly interesting.

Did you notice any overdrive trailing on either screen?
 

datamage

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Well, I hate to burst bubbles, but according to this review the Samsung panel isn't as good as the Viewsonic for gaming nor does it have the same viewing angles. Supposedly the LCD reviewed is using the same panel as the 193P+.

- D.
 
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datamage said:
Well, I hate to burst bubbles, but according to this review the Samsung panel isn't as good as the Viewsonic for gaming nor does it have the same viewing angles. Supposedly the LCD reviewed is using the same panel as the 193P+.

- D.

*sigh* Allow myself to quote myself...

DarkMage619 said:
I would have no issue with that standpoint if the Behardware review was of the 193p+, but it isn't. I don't care if they are using the same panel, if there are other differences in the way the panels are manufactured that could affect performance. There was a review of the Dell 2005FPW and the 20'' Apple Cinema display on Anandtech. Despite the fact that both were using the SAME panel, they reviewed differently! They even had different response times listed! My point is you cannot, well you should not, use a review for a particular monitor to cast a negative light on a different monitor. You can do as you wish but know that NONE I repeat NONE of the issues Behardware was complaining about pertain to the 193p+. So at this point the 193p+ stands as the best performing 19'' display based on my experiences.

The Dark One
 

Drev8

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Hi there,

New to the forum, but it was very helpful in my search for my first LCD. I also bought both the 193P+ and the 191b to compare them at home - but my result was the opposite. I did not conduct tests as extensively as above, and to be clear I also didn't do any calibrating to either monitor. I found no differences in games or pictures, and the colours on both monitors seemed excellent to me. Where I noticed a difference was on video. One of my chief uses of the monitor is for video editing, and when I compared video I've shot for an independent film I'm making, the 191b did a much better job than the Samsung. I found the Samsung video to be much grainier than the Viewsonic. I also noticed some blurring / trails in the video on the Samsung which I don't have on the Viewsonic. Maybe this problem could have been corrected with calibration, but since video was my biggest concern I decided to return the Samsung and keep the Viewsonic 191b. I would also add that I just recently got a new dvd rom and dvds on the Viewsonic look amazing.

As for the design of the two, I completely agree that the Samsung is superior. I wish the 191b had a newer design because the Samsung's is beautiful. In the end, I based my decision on the video because that was of chief concern to me. Of course I was also encouraged by all the great reviews the Viewsonic had!

*** by the way, could anyone advise me on how to calibrate the 191b so it's functioning best?

thanks,
Drev
 

datamage

Limp Gawd
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*sigh* Allow myself to quote myself...

Then allow me to ask how you can take the opinion of someone's perception of blurring without trying and comparing the monitors yourself? No offense to the thread starter, but just because he can't see the difference in blurring, doesn't mean they don't exist.

In the Dell/Apple comparison the changes made to the panel were in color/brightness/contrast. The latencies are usually the same. I seriously doubt Samsung made some serious changes to the panel that took it from not so good in gaming to astounding.. But hey, enjoy your validation.

- D.
 

Roger

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datamage said:
Well, I hate to burst bubbles, but according to this review the Samsung panel isn't as good as the Viewsonic for gaming nor does it have the same viewing angles. Supposedly the LCD reviewed is using the same panel as the 193P+.

- D.
The fact that Fujitsu Siemens P19-2 uses the same panel as the 193P+ doesn't mean much. The 193P+ also has the same panel as the older 193P, does that mean it's equally slow? It's the overdrive circuit that makes the difference and obviously Viewsonic's overdrive (which they call ClearMotiv or something like that) is better than that used in Fujitsu Siemens monitors. There is also a Fujitsu Siemens C19-4 which uses the same panel as the VP191B but is slower and worse for games.
 
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datamage said:
Then allow me to ask how you can take the opinion of someone's perception of blurring without trying and comparing the monitors yourself? No offense to the thread starter, but just because he can't see the difference in blurring, doesn't mean they don't exist.

In the Dell/Apple comparison the changes made to the panel were in color/brightness/contrast. The latencies are usually the same. I seriously doubt Samsung made some serious changes to the panel that took it from not so good in gaming to astounding.. But hey, enjoy your validation.

- D.

As I've stated I've witnessed the performance of the 193p+ first hand. I know what I saw. It also doesn't change the fact that the behardware view was NOT of the 193p+. It like me reading a review for a JVC television and using that review to justify negative comments made about a Panasonic. It just doesn't make any sense. I suppose we have a difference of opinion but I choose to base my purchasing decisions on reviews and impressions based on the actual product I want not a review on a product I have no interest in. You COULD use that Behardware review to evaluate the 193p+ but seeing how the Behardware review WASN'T on the 193p+ I think that is silly. I shall continue enjoying my validation.

The Dark One
 

datamage

Limp Gawd
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As I've stated I've witnessed the performance of the 193p+ first hand. I know what I saw.

Ok, maybe I missed something, but I never read anywhere that you've witnessed the 193p+ first hand. Otherwise I would never have even replied with what I said. I thought you were using other people's opinions to come to your conclusion. Obviously there was a misunderstanding. I guess we should move on.

On that note, I wish I could toss the Samsung onto my desk so I can give it a whirl, but no local store has it, and I'm not willing to go through the 15% restocking fee. :p Honestly, I want to see reviews of the Samsung 204T, but that's a whole different topic.

- D.
 

Araanor

Limp Gawd
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207
Thanks for the comparison, even if things still are unclear.

Someone who didn't calibrate the screen thought the Samsung one was better, and someone who compared video between the two thought the Viewsonic came out on top. They seem to be pretty close to each other in performance. Hope to see a proper review on THG or BeHardware soon.
 

IdiotInCharge

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OP, thanks for the comparison, I've been looking at that monitor as well as the 204T mentioned above for my next build.
 

Vol

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Badd said:
Did you notice any overdrive trailing on either screen?
What do you mean by that?

datamage said:
Well, I hate to burst bubbles, but according to this review the Samsung panel isn't as good as the Viewsonic for gaming nor does it have the same viewing angles. Supposedly the LCD reviewed is using the same panel as the 193P+.

- D.
The viewing angles are really good on the 193P Plus. I didn't notice a difference between the two. I could clearly see the image when looking from the side of the panel. When I stop seeing it clearly it is when I'm way too much parallel to the screen anyway. If they make LCD with bigger viewing angles it's gonna be a waste. IMO I don't see the purpose.

Something I forgot to mention in my first post:
When playing the BF2 demo, only 1280x960 was available. On the 193P Plus the image was was really good, the same with the VP191b but I think there were no scaling with the VP191b. I couldn't see a bit of the bottom and the right of the screen, like when you move the image out of the screen of a CRT. I don't know if this can be fixed as I didn't looked for it. When playing other games at 1024x768 the scaling was good on both monitors though.

Also, like I said previously, I didn't calibrate the VP191b but I did adjust the contrast and lightning to my taste so both monitors had visually the same contrast lightning with a still image.
 

Drags

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sorry Vol, i should have maede it clearer.....all i meant was, did you see any trailing of colours behind moving images? It's different from conventional blurring of the whole image (the beloved "ghosting") but is a trail of perhaps a white colour behind moving objects caused by the overdrive technology. It's only because the pixels are forced to make an intervening transition before they reach the desired grey level (ie, they're forced a full black > white, and then the 'fall' back to the desired grey level). This is just the principle behind the overdrive technology, but some monitors do show some slight colour trails.....

just wondered if this was noticable on either of the screens?
 

Vol

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I didn't notice it while I was gaming with either one. I don't have the VP191b anymore so I can't test it but is there something I could specifically try with the 193P Plus to test this? I already tried moving different internet pages with lots of colours in the background and I didin't see trailing. I also pay more attention to that while gaming but I didn't see it. I think there was a thread where someone was saying that he saw trailing in only one of the games that he played. I don't remember which thread this was neither what game it was. Any suggestions on how I could create a favourable environment to see this, if there is anything to see?
 
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Vol said:
I didn't notice it while I was gaming with either one. I don't have the VP191b anymore so I can't test it but is there something I could specifically try with the 193P Plus to test this? I already tried moving different internet pages with lots of colours in the background and I didin't see trailing. I also pay more attention to that while gaming but I didn't see it. I think there was a thread where someone was saying that he saw trailing in only one of the games that he played. I don't remember which thread this was neither what game it was. Any suggestions on how I could create a favourable environment to see this, if there is anything to see?


I say that if you have work super hard to notice a potential screen issue, perhaps you should leave well enough alone. Why would you want to try various ways to see a screen anomaly? If you can't see it then it doesn't exist and you should be happy!

The Dark One
 

Drags

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Vol said:
I didn't notice it while I was gaming with either one. I don't have the VP191b anymore so I can't test it but is there something I could specifically try with the 193P Plus to test this? I already tried moving different internet pages with lots of colours in the background and I didin't see trailing. I also pay more attention to that while gaming but I didn't see it. I think there was a thread where someone was saying that he saw trailing in only one of the games that he played. I don't remember which thread this was neither what game it was. Any suggestions on how I could create a favourable environment to see this, if there is anything to see?

thats good enough for me, just wondered if it was obvious or not. Didn't think it was a major thing on the VP191B at all really, some people have noticed it more on the Dell 1905FP - 8ms ver, but that's probably due to the added electronics and fancy bits like AIT which VS have used on the VP191B.....glad to hear the 193P+ is as good :)
 

cambrian

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I'm having real trouble deciding between the 2.

Compusa has the 193P+ with $100 off. The Viewsonic is cheaper w/o rebates.
But for me, the price difference doesn't matter. I only care about three things: real-life response time, color brightness, backlight leak.

To this date, I have not found conclusive evidence on which one is better for this. The samsung rebate only lasts 1 week.

HELP!!!!!!
 

Fionavar

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Dear cambiran,

My experience has been that Samsung supports their products and Viewsonic has a lot of those who have been burned. I'm not sure this is definitive for you, but for me, going with the 193P+ for me has been personally and financially the smart choice between the 2 fwiiw ...
 

eamayer

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Two things, my 2 cents....
First, I found the same thing as above. I found a few disturbing coments here and there on forums about Viewsonic QC and customer service. Not so with Samsung.
Second, I have found out the conditions that will allow you to see the Overdrive Trailing. I have a regular white with black outline Windows pointer. If you move it at just the right speed over a "white" background, (white is not perfectly white, it is a little grayish), you can see a slight overdrive trail behind it. It is very difficult to see on blue, almost impossible on all the other solid colors I have tried. On a varied background, I cannot see it at all.
Also, I see more conventional ghosting on my Sont Trinitron 21" CRT than on the 193P+. Actually, I cannot seem to make the 193P+ ghost at all. And in HL2, no ghosting and no motion blur.
 

smith94672

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I'm not sure if I can really believe comments on ghosting and motion blurring. I recall last year when I purchased Samsung's original 193P based on remarks that the 193P does not ghost and is splendid for playing games. However, that wasn't true at all; I saw ghosting in games like Max Payne 2, pac-man, need for speed underground, and some others. I haven't calibrated the monitor, in which I don't know if it makes a difference. I returned the monitor after 5 hours of use. Strangely, Anandtech gave the 193P a perfect 5 out of 5 for games, and I don't know how this came to be.

The 193P+ has the SAME panel that 193P uses and relies on marginal overdrives for an 8 ms g2g transition. How is this little change going to radically improve game performance as opposed to the 193P? Also, there were some users on this forum who were not satisfied with the way 193P+ handles games and confirmed 193P+'s negative review from Behardware.com. Just like for the 193P, I am again hearing some people say that they absolutely do not see ghosting and motion blurring on the 193P+. There should be some more clarification from such comments.
 

the@ntipop

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eamayer said:
Two things, my 2 cents....
First, I found the same thing as above. I found a few disturbing coments here and there on forums about Viewsonic QC and customer service. Not so with Samsung.
Second, I have found out the conditions that will allow you to see the Overdrive Trailing. I have a regular white with black outline Windows pointer. If you move it at just the right speed over a "white" background, (white is not perfectly white, it is a little grayish), you can see a slight overdrive trail behind it. It is very difficult to see on blue, almost impossible on all the other solid colors I have tried. On a varied background, I cannot see it at all.
Also, I see more conventional ghosting on my Sont Trinitron 21" CRT than on the 193P+. Actually, I cannot seem to make the 193P+ ghost at all. And in HL2, no ghosting and no motion blur.

Point is, I guess, if you have to try that hard to notice it, you aren't going to be affected by it in a game. I have a 193P and can attest to the exceptional build quality and customer support Samsung offers. Plus, the 193's look badass.
 

eamayer

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I think the hardest thing I have had is to wade through as many tests nad user comments as possible, and then just jump in. Everybody has greater or lesser sensitivities to different audio and visual things, and none greater than all this LCD stuff. I found exactly the same thing-many comments about no blur, no trails, no etc., then some coments on the same monitor being unusable for gaming. So far the best reviews have been on tomshardware. I decided to jump in on the 193P+ and I am not disappointed so far. My own gaming experience with this monitor is very positive. I may have exactly the same experience with the VP191b, though, but there is no local returnable source for it here in Phoenix. I have 21 days to return my 193P+, and believe me, if I do find something I don't like about it it will go back. So far it is a keeper, I am very happy, but I have not finished my own testing. Which, like everyone elses anecdotal testing, is extremely subjective.
 

cambrian

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So I got a chance to visit Compusa today to look at the 193P+. They had the 193P model on display but the color/brightness quality was great. And I assume the 193P+ is the same.

I did get a chance to see teh Viewsonic VP171s. I don't know if this is similar to the VP191b in terms of color/contrast/brightness or not but the quality was terrible. I actually fiddle around with the color and brightness settings but no matter how much I adjust the color seems over saturated and the contrast was way too intense. When you try to adjust the brightness and contrast it just makes the screen darker but the relative intensity is still crappy. I don't know if the OP had the same problem with his viewsonic.
The viewsonic panel just seems poor in quality in terms of color compared to the near by Sony model receiving outputs from the same source.

Now keep in mind that this is the 17'' VP171s model so take it for what it's worth.
 

rusty

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i want to pick up a 193p+ for myself, but im sorta iffy on some people complaining about "blurring" in games. do any of you notice blurring while gaming???
 

Araanor

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The VP171 is not even the same type of panel as the VP191 - it's TN. VP191 has a much better picture.
 

eamayer

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rusty,
FWIW, and this is my own sensitivity or lack of, but try as I might, I cannot get my 193P+ to blur in HL2 in any way that bothers me. I have last years Dell 19" monitor and I cannot play games on it (it is at work), it has too much ghosting and blurring. Remember that each person will have a different sensitivity to motion blur. I feel like I am somewhat sensitive to it, and the 193P+ satifies me very well. That is why I went local/returnable, so I could test it for myself. As others have observed, Anandtech and tomshardware, be- and others have difffering opinions about the practical effect of the monitors. I really like the objective portions of the tomshardware tests.
 

the@ntipop

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rusty said:
i want to pick up a 193p+ for myself, but im sorta iffy on some people complaining about "blurring" in games. do any of you notice blurring while gaming???

To be honest, I game 2-3 hours a night (in school semester more like 5-6) and after 1 month with my 193P (20ms response) I can't see ghosting while playing. The only way I'll notice it is if I'm screwing around throwing my mouse around when there's a black object against a fair colored foreground (like the sand textures in CS's dust maps). That said I have seen some LCDs that had horrible ghosting in games so I have some baseline to compare to. But I have to think that people who can see blur on these new super-fast LCDs are just picky beyond belief. If you look for something hard enough, you are bound to find it.
 

dylan_b.

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do any of you notice blurring while gaming???

Like others said it's subjective, but if I look for it I can see it.
Right now I'm playing the following games: HL2, GTA San Andreas, Act of War, Rise of Nations series, Warcraft III series & Brothers in Arms. In the RTS games I don't notice anything. In the others it's very subtle and not noticeable at all during certain actions like moving forwards or driving. If I spin the camera/environment around in a 360 I can tell it's not as fast as my old Trinitron CRT.
I've been using the 193P+ for a few weeks & hardly notice it anymore. If your coming from another LCD you'll be happy. If your moving from CRT to LCD you may notice it's not as fast in some situations.
YMMV. Good luck!
 

cambrian

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forgot to mention this but if you buy the 193p+ (or any monitor) you get the viewsonic N4 video processor for free after rebate (a $100 value). You can ebay the video processor for $60-70 so that's another $70 savings in addition to the $100 rebate.
 

Arkalius

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I wonder if what some people call ghosting is really just effects of persistence of vision. POV is going to be apparant on any screen with fast moving contrast images if you focus on it. I can see "ghosting" (POV effects really) on my CRT if I focus enough.
 

water1

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Arkalius, do we see persistence of vision in every day life ? You know like on the 4th of july when someone is moving a sparkler around and you see a ghosting light trail.
 

Arkalius

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Motion blur is a kind of POV effect... wave your hand across your face quickly and you see a long blurred hand figure in front of you. Our eyes have their own "refresh rate" as it were. When images change faster than our eyes are able to keep up with them, they tend to blur or "ghost" in our vision. On a monitor it's a little different. We see frames of discrete images flash by that have not built-in motion blur (like video and film do), so we see more disjointed POV images instead of a smooth blur, but the principle is the same.

Sparklers in the night time is a different kind of thing. The high level of brightness against the darker contrast creates burned images on our retina that take some time to fade out. It's like looking at a very bright light for a moment and looking away and seeing color spots for a little while.

Ghosting on LCD's is more of a soft blurred trail behind an image that is slower to "evaporate" than a POV effect would be. LCD's will always have ghosting, but at some point it becomes so minimal as to blend in with POV which our eyes are used to ignoring in most cases. You could probably train yoursrelf to see ghosting on any LCD, no matter how fast, but why train yourself to see a problem that you couldn't see before?

Also, some people are more sensitive to the effect than others, just as other people see tearing more apparantly than others do.
 
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