$600 Gaming Rig, have some hardware already

[Chuckiefresh]

My current pc died tonight. Ah well, I was thinking about upgrading anyway. I just want to say I greatly appreciate any advice you can give me on what components to buy. I will make sure to use this site's links when purchasing to help support this excellent site.


1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming
2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included? $600 tax and shipping included. Amazon only please if possible as I have free Prime 2-day shipping and 1-day shipping for $3.99 per item.
3) Which country do you live in? USA. Douglasville, Georgia
4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? Intel CPU, RAM, case, motherboard, dvd drive, and any heatsink/fans that are needed
5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? MSI GTX 660 TI 2gb video card, 500gb SATA Western Digital HD, Antec 550w Basiq power supply, Creative PCI Xtreme Music sound card
6) Will you be overclocking? No
7) What is the max resolution of your monitor? 1920x1080 What size is it? 22 inches
8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC? Immediately, I'm already suffering from GW2 withdrawal.
9) What features do you need in a motherboard? USB 3.0 would be nice.
10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Yes, Windows 7, 64 bit.

 

[Dangman]

$200 - Intel Core i5 3470 CPU
$90 - MSI H77MA-G43 LGA 1155 Intel H77 mATX Motherboard
$36 - Corsair CMV8GX3M2A1333C9 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333 RAM
$22 - LG iHAS124-04 DVD Burner
$90 - Corsair 650TX V2 650W PSU
$50 - NZXT Source 210 Elite White with Black Front Trim ATX Case
----
Total: $488 shipped

I included a new PSU because your current PSU is not good at all. If you want to spend all that $600, I recommend picking up a SSD for the OS and some games:
$105 - Crucial M4 CT128M4SSD2 2.5" 128GB SSD

 

[Chuckiefresh]

I appreciate the quick response Danny. I will definitely pick up the power supply as well.

A couple quick follow up questions before I buy please:

1) The cpu linked doesn't seem to come with a fan. Do I need one? Although I've installed several pc parts over the years I've never built a pc. If I do need one I'd prefer just to get a cpu with a fan already installed to reduce the chances of me destroying it before I ever get it running lol.

2) The mobo doesn't look like it has a pci slot for my creative pci sound card. Is there another mobo you could recommend that has a pci slot? If it only has usb 2.0 that's fine.

Thanks

 

[Deleted member 88227]

1. It does come with a heatsink/fan. You do not need one. The heatsink/fan does not come preinstalled on any CPU. You have to mount the CPU first, then mount the heatsink/fan on top of it; therefore it doesn't really matter if you get one with or without a heatsink/fan.

2. The sound on the motherboard is probably better than that sound card anyway, but if you want to use it anyway get this board.

$114.07 - Gigabyte LGA 1155 Intel Z77

It will cause you to go over your budget by about $15 though, but it's money well spent. You should get that SSD Danny recommended as well, you wont be disappointed.

If you are really strict on your $600 budget, we can drop that PSU down to a slightly smaller rating unit to save you some money.

 

[jtenorj]

2) The mobo doesn't look like it has a pci slot for my creative pci sound card. Is there another mobo you could recommend that has a pci slot? If it only has usb 2.0 that's fine.

Feel like making a hop, skip and a jump over to Marietta? (usb 3.0 and sata 3)

ASRockZ77Pro3 94.99 http://microcenter.com/product/387627/Z77_Pro3_1155_ATX_Intel_Motherboard
i5 2500k 159.99 http://microcenter.com/product/354589/Core_i5_2500K_LGA_1155_Boxed_Processor
hyper212+ 29.99 http://microcenter.com/product/315397/Hyper_212_Plus_Universal_CPU_Cooler#
(The hyper212+ does come with some Cooler Master labeled thermal compound, but see below if you want better and don't have it on hand.)
Crucial Ballistics Sport 2x4GB 1333 CL9 37.99 http://microcenter.com/product/3820...l_Desktop_Memory_Kit_(Two_4GB_Memory_Modules)
Samsung22xdvdrw 15.99 http://microcenter.com/product/382892/22X_DVD±RW_Burner_with_Dual_Layer_Support_-_OEM
Corsair GS600 102.67 http://microcenter.com/product/3973...0_Watt_ATX_12V_Power_Supply_with_Blue_LED_Fan
(The 500w version of this PSU got a rave review at hardwaresecrets. It had low ripple and was able to deliver more than its rated wattage with a high level of efficiency.)
Corsair Carbide 300R 64.99 http://microcenter.com/product/379532/Carbide_Series_300R_Mid-Tower_ATX_Gaming_Computer_Case
(I might suggest moving the 120mm fan to front intake, maybe over the storage drives, and let the hyper 212 vent out the back.)
total w/o ssd: 497.62 before tax, 527.48 after tax(4% Georgia state, 2% Cobb County, 6% total)

Sandisk Extreme 120GB sata 3 ssd 79.99 before tax, 84.79 after tax http://microcenter.com/product/3826...0GB_SATA_60Gb-s_25_Internal_Solid_State_Drive

total w/ssd 612.27. After 10.00 MIR for Carbide 300R and 5.00 MIR for Hyper 212+, 597.27 (Rebates good through 09/02/12)

Some incidentals if you need them...

Arctic silver 5 7.99/8.47 http://microcenter.com/product/391496/5_High-Density_Polysynthetic_Silver_Thermal_Compound#
(Keep in mind that Arctic Silver 5 takes like 200 hours to cure and reach maximum thermal conduction efficiency.)

2 18in sata 3 cables 3.99/4.23 http://microcenter.com/product/388741/Two_18_SATA_III_6Gbps_Cables_with_Latch_-_Red#
(Figured maybe if your optical and mobo are shot, the data cable is too. You would also need one for most SSDs, should you decide you really want one.)

All this is available in Duluth, too. Taxes are the same in Gwinnett County as they are in Cobb County. I understand you can order online and pick stuff up in as little as 18 minutes.

I know you said no OCing, but why not? It's super easy! 100mhz bump, prime95 torture test. Pass, repeat. Fail, voltage bump, repeat(max volts<10% over stock volts) keep temps under 70. When to point you are satisfied, prime95 overnight. Pass, stable oc, done. Fail, back off 100mhz and overnight. pass, done.

(Someone please correct me if that temp is too high and needs to be under a lower threshold).

If you really don't want to overclock, ditch the hyper 212+. Use the boxed intel cooler and keep the case's 120mm fan where it is to save 26.49.
(Edit: I forgot. I might mention that anandtech got their i5 2500k up to 4.4ghz on the boxed intel cooler, maybe even without any voltage tweaks, but just by upping the multiplier.)

If you do decide you'd like to overclock the i5 2500k after all and keep the hyper 212+, ask for opinions on how to best apply a small amount of thermal compound to the underside of that direct contact heatpipe cooler. That would be before you apply some thermal compound at the center of the top of the cpu(between bb and pea sized).

You really should overclock your gtx660ti if you haven't already done so, though. It's free performance.

1) The cpu linked doesn't seem to come with a fan. Do I need one? Although I've installed several pc parts over the years I've never built a pc. If I do need one I'd prefer just to get a cpu with a fan already installed to reduce the chances of me destroying it before I ever get it running lol.

The 12oz(3/4 lb) product weight and 13.6oz shipping weight wasn't a clue there was a stock intel cooler inside?

 

[jtenorj]

2. The sound on the motherboard is probably better than that sound card anyway, but if you want to use it anyway get this board.

You think Realtek ALC892 is going to sound better than a Creative Sound Blaster Xfi Extreme Music? Chuckiefresh bought that sound card for a reason.

 

[runs2far]

Keep the sound card, almost any add in card will beat integrated.

You have a couple of options for keeping the soundcard.

Skillz recommended the GA-Z77M-D3H-MVP, which allows you to OC if you should ever get a K model i5 and has a PCI slot.

I would recommend the GA-H77-DS3H (ATX) or GA-H77M-D3H (mATX), both are cheaper than what skillz suggested. You lose the option of OC in the future, but you save some money.

The DS3H is ATX, it gives you more space for add in cards, adds some breathing room between the GPU and sound card and it has a msata thingy if you want to use that.
ATX does takes up more space inside the case and the NZXT 210 is about as small as it gets with support for an ATX motherboard, aka. if you see the 210 as a temporary case and want to move to something smaller get the D3H.

I would go with the mATX D3H as add in cards are getting rare and the 660 TI does not suck enough power to need a lot of breathing room.

If you update Danny_Bui's recommendation, which only lacks the slot for the sound card, you end up with:

$200 - Intel Core i5 3470 CPU
$87 - Gigabyte GA-H77M-D3H LGA 1155 Intel H77 mATX Motherboard
$36 - Corsair CMV8GX3M2A1333C9 2 x 4GB DDR3 1333 RAM
$22 - LG iHAS124-04 DVD Burner
$90 - Corsair 650TX V2 650W PSU
$50 - NZXT Source 210 Elite White with Black Front Trim ATX Case
----
Total: $485 shipped

And as Danny_Bui wrote, spending some money on a SSD will make a big difference.

The samsung 830, Crucial M4 and Sandisk Extreme are all good choises and the 120/128 GB versions are about 100$ on Amazon.

 

[Dangman]

I wouldn't go with jtenorj's recommendations for a few reasons:
1) AsRock mobos tested by HardOCP were found to be rather inconsistent with quality. Until a HardOCP review of AsRock's Z77 mobos comes out, I'm not recommending AsRock mobo due to the inconsistency

2) The PSU is a terrible choice for the money since the Corsair TX650 V2 is cheaper, of higher quality, and actually has more amperage on the +12V rail than the GS600 (TX V2's 52A on the +12V VS 49A for the GS). The +12V rail is where most PC parts draw power from.

3) The included thermal paste with that Coolermaster Hyper 212+ is just as good as AS5. In addition, there are plenty of other thermal paste out there that have no curing time whatsoever yet provides just as good if not better cooling as AS5. So in other words, no reason to get AS5.

4) Personally, due to the fact that the Sandisk is a Sandforce not being tweaked by Intel, I can't recommend it due to Sandforce's troublesome history. I'd personally stick with Crucial M4, Plextor m3, Intel 520, Samsung 830, or Corsair Performance Pro series SSDs.

5) That setup doesn't take advantage of MC's August deal where $50 is knocked off the cost of any Z77 motherboard when you buy a Core i5 3570K. Since the 3570K is faster at stock than the 2500K and that $50 off basically allows you to get a far better motherboard that'll equal the price of that AsRock.

 

[Chuckiefresh]

Wow, can't thank you all enough for the insight and advice. I come here from time to time over the years whenever pc issues inevitably arise and this place never disappoints. Thanks guys for taking the time to respond.

 

[jtenorj]

I wouldn't go with jtenorj's recommendations for a few reasons:
1) AsRock mobos tested by HardOCP were found to be rather inconsistent with quality. Until a HardOCP review of AsRock's Z77 mobos comes out, I'm not recommending AsRock mobo due to the inconsistency

2) The PSU is a terrible choice for the money since the Corsair TX650 V2 is cheaper, of higher quality, and actually has more amperage on the +12V rail than the GS600 (TX V2's 52A on the +12V VS 49A for the GS). The +12V rail is where most PC parts draw power from.

3) The included thermal paste with that Coolermaster Hyper 212+ is just as good as AS5. In addition, there are plenty of other thermal paste out there that have no curing time whatsoever yet provides just as good if not better cooling as AS5. So in other words, no reason to get AS5.

4) Personally, due to the fact that the Sandisk is a Sandforce not being tweaked by Intel, I can't recommend it due to Sandforce's troublesome history. I'd personally stick with Crucial M4, Plextor m3, Intel 520, Samsung 830, or Corsair Performance Pro series SSDs.

5) That setup doesn't take advantage of MC's August deal where $50 is knocked off the cost of any Z77 motherboard when you buy a Core i5 3570K. Since the 3570K is faster at stock than the 2500K and that $50 off basically allows you to get a far better motherboard that'll equal the price of that AsRock.

1.I don't think [H] is necessarily the only site you can trust for a quality review of mobos, and ASRock z77 mobos(mostly Extreme 4s) have been well received at many major tech sites around the web. They seem to be getting things right this chipset generation.

2.I almost suggested the Corsiar cx500 for 61.33/65.01 before 5.00MIR http://microcenter.com/product/361422/Builder_Series_500_Watt_ATX_12V_Power_Supply
With "only" 34A on a single +12v rail and 200+ reviews on newegg averaging 4/5 eggs, it's more than enough for a LGA1155 Bridge cpu, gtx660ti and the rest of these builds. It's 60.01 after that 5.00 mail in rebate, too(good through tomorrow i.e. 09/02/12 like the other rebates). That would save a nice chunk of change compared to both our initial psu suggestions which are admittedly a bit over the top given the total build's overall power requirements. The TX650 w/52A of 12v vs the GS600 w/49A of 12v is only a 36w difference. All these Corsair power supplies are quality units, just focused at different market segments.

3. I'm sure the cooler master paste is fine and maybe doesn't even require any curing time, either. Heck, even toothpaste and vegamite work better than most premium pastes(for a very brief period of time). Some folks do get swayed by the "if everyone else use's it, I'd better too" mentality, however(not saying that's you, Chuckiefresh).

4.Sandisk is relatively new to the ssd game, so should already have any sandforce issues ironed out. It's sequential read/write speeds and max iops are rated higher than the M4 you linked, too.(Edit: Plus, it's a lot cheaper.)

5.I looked for combo deals on Microcenter but came up zilch. My first time focusing on them for suggestions actually since most people don't live as close to one as Chuckiefresh does. Neither of Chuckiefresh's nearby Microcenters seem to have i5 3570k in stock. The i5 2500k for 159.99 seemed like a hell of a deal all by itself at that price(Edit: it's not August anymore. It's Spetember. Also, the i5 2500k is just a wee bit slower than i5 3570k at stock speeds, and both are faster at stock than the if 3470 you linked. If Chuckiefresh should choose to overclock, the i5 2500k may well go higher than a i5 3570k and have a better thermal profile doing it, thanks to the 2500k's superior fluxless solder inside vs 3570k's substandard thermal compound inside)

Chuckiefresh said he was was suffering from GW2 withdrawal and wanted to build as fast as possible. Amazon would take days to ship(or cost 3.99 each for the up to 7 items suggested ie. 28 bucks extra to ship 1day) where he could order on Microcenter's site, drive slowly and carefully from Douglasville to Marietta and back, assemble his components,and be gaming again same day(Duluth is a little farther though and all three are in the Atlanta area).

Wow, can't thank you all enough for the insight and advice. I come here from time to time over the years whenever pc issues inevitably arise and this place never disappoints. Thanks guys for taking the time to respond.

Glad we can help. Let us know what parts you end up getting and how the build goes, ok?

 

[Dangman]

1.I don't think [H] is necessarily the only site you can trust for a quality review of mobos, and ASRock z77 mobos(mostly Extreme 4s) have been well received at many major tech sites around the web. They seem to be getting things right this chipset generation.

Still, I'd rather have the HardOCP seal of approval on AsRock. You're right that there are other site to get decent reviews of mobos but I give more weight on HardOCP reviews than other websites when it comes to mobos. In other words, I prefer HardOCP's method of motherboard testing.

2.I almost suggested the Corsiar cx500 for 61.33/65.01 before 5.00MIR http://microcenter.com/product/361422/Builder_Series_500_Watt_ATX_12V_Power_Supply
With "only" 34A on a single +12v rail and 200+ reviews on newegg averaging 4/5 eggs, it's more than enough for a LGA1155 Bridge cpu, gtx660ti and the rest of these builds. It's 60.01 after that 5.00 mail in rebate, too(good through tomorrow i.e. 09/02/12 like the other rebates). That would save a nice chunk of change compared to both our initial psu suggestions which are admittedly a bit over the top given the total build's overall power requirements. The TX650 w/52A of 12v vs the GS600 w/49A of 12v is only a 36w difference. All these Corsair power supplies are quality units, just focused at different market segments.

Even if it's a 36W diffrence, you're still getting less power and quality for your money with the GS600 over the TX650 V2. In addition, I recommended the TX650 V2 because of the OP's requirement to buy everything from Amazon.com. That's the cheapest yet still decent enough PSU available on Amazon.com that I can recommend. If it wasn't for the Amazon.com requirement, I would have recommended the $64 Antec Neo Eco 520C 520W from Newegg, a PSU thats of higher quality and has 6A more on the +12V rail than the Corsair CX500. In addition, around General Hardware, we don't factor in MIR since the OP hasn't recieved it.

4.Sandisk is relatively new to the ssd game, so should already have any sandforce issues ironed out. It's sequential read/write speeds and max iops are rated higher than the M4 you linked, too.(Edit: Plus, it's a lot cheaper.)

If they're new to the SSD game, that means that they don't have all the experience or technical know-how for proper firmware or firmware updates. Sequential read/write speeds only matter if you're transferring a ton of files to and from the SSD. It won't affect the actual overall system responsiveness.

5.I looked for combo deals on Microcenter but came up zilch. My first time focusing on them for suggestions actually since most people don't live as close to one as Chuckiefresh does. Neither of Chuckiefresh's nearby Microcenters seem to have i5 3570k in stock. The i5 2500k for 159.99 seemed like a hell of a deal all by itself at that price(Edit: it's not August anymore. It's Spetember. Also, the i5 2500k is just a wee bit slower than i5 3570k at stock speeds, and both are faster at stock than the if 3470 you linked. If Chuckiefresh should choose to overclock, the i5 2500k may well go higher than a i5 3570k and have a better thermal profile doing it, thanks to the 2500k's superior fluxless solder inside vs 3570k's substandard thermal compound inside)

MC's August deals are still available until September 2nd. The combo deals are in MC's catalog. Considering that the OP has specifically said "no overclocking", the overclocking pro you mentioned doesn't apply to the OP. I listed the Core i5 3470 which has a clock speed of 3.2Ghz. The 2500K is clocked at 3.3Ghz. Only a 100Mhz difference. Since IB CPUs are 3 to 5% faster clock for clock than SB CPUs, the Core i5 3470 performs the same as the 2500K.

Chuckiefresh said he was was suffering from GW2 withdrawal and wanted to build as fast as possible. Amazon would take days to ship(or cost 3.99 each for the up to 7 items suggested ie. 28 bucks extra to ship 1day) where he could order on Microcenter's site, drive slowly and carefully from Douglasville to Marietta and back, assemble his components,and be gaming again same day(Duluth is a little farther though and all three are in the Atlanta area).

GW2 withdrawal isn't an excuse to pay more for less than great parts for the money. He has Prime shipping so it wouldn't have taken 2-3 days max for those parts to come in.

 

[jtenorj]

Not gonna argue with u about the mobo. Let us agree to disagree.

Are you saying the cx500 is a poor quality psu, or just a little below that of the antec? The cx500 has a single +12v rail(so it doesn't require load balancing on the builder's part) and it includes an AC power cord. If I'm not mistaken, the Neo Eco line has a split +12v rail that requires a builder to be careful how they load the rails and lacks an AC power cord. Since the OP needs a new PSU, perhaps his power cord is fried and he doesn't have another lying around. The small advantages of the cx500 mean no additonal run to the hardware store for a power cable, and no potential glitches from first boot(or worse). Even if you don't count the MIRs, at 65 it's a savings of 40 vs the cs600 at 105 in my suggested build. If not counting those other 2 MIRs , the cost is raised by 15 to being 25 under the previous estimate. That can be applied to a "better" ssd.

If the OP is not OCing, and the i5 2500k at stock is about the same speed as the cpu you suggested, then the OP can just use the intel cooler and save another 30. Sandy a@95w, gtx660ti @150, fans 20, hdd 20,optical 20, ssd next to nothing, ram 20, sound blaster < 25(pci), mobo maybe 50 is 400w, and the cx500 with 34A on the 12v rail delivers up to 408w(not counting any over power capacity) in addition to the other rails. These parts likely won't ever reach these amounts of power use( the cpu and gpu won't max in games and I probably WAY overestimated the power use of the other components) and they certainly will never all push max power usage at the same time. The cx500 should be just fine.

With the "good enough" psu, a "little" better ssd and no after market hsf, my build should be safely under budget and maybe less expensive than yours. That, and the OP can game today without having to wait at least 2 days for regular shipping or pay 24 bucks extra for 1 day. (didn't factor in 4.24 for sata cables, but that's a drop in the bucket).

 

[Dangman]

Are you saying the cx500 is a poor quality psu, or just a little below that of the antec? The cx500 has a single +12v rail(so it doesn't require load balancing on the builder's part) and it includes an AC power cord.

I'm saying that for the price, the CX500 is a total ripoff considering it's lower quality compared to the Antec 520C that doesn't cost that much more. I have recommended the CX500 in the past but only when it was $50 to $55. At $61 to $65, it's way overpriced. The CX500 V2 is rated at 30C whereas the 520C is rated at 40C. It is of lower quality compared to the Antec. It has less power than the Antec. Its sole advantage is that included power cable yet the OP has not stated whatsoever that he doesn't have a spare power cord.

If I'm not mistaken, the Neo Eco line has a split +12v rail that requires a builder to be careful how they load the rails and lacks an AC power cord.

The latter is true but the former is not. The Nec Eco 520C is still a single rail Seasonic platform:
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=317192

In any case, we're gonna have to agree to disagree here on your planned setup. It's clear neither of us are gonna back down or change our recommendations. Especially without the OP chiming in on what he wants.

 

[duranzo]

CX500 is way too low quality, please forgo.

 

[jtenorj]

Yeah, I imagine the OP has already ordered parts that are now on the way. We may never know how things turned out. You are right, the antec is better(don't know where you got the degrees c ratings, but that single rail was news to me til I checked newegg. guess I was thinking of some other antec units). The antec has a double ball bearing fan like the decent but no longer sold gs500, where the cx500 has a lower quality sleeve bearing. I was just trying to give the OP another option besides amazon that would get him gaming again
a few days sooner for the cost of a bit of fuel(vs. spending extra for rush delivery). I know the psu(and mobo) are not places you want to skimp on quality but thought I was making decent suggestions given the overall cost and power use of the build(still not saying there's anything wrong with the newer ASRock z77s though).

I am fairly newb posting on threads like this and should have know better than to be sparring with a moderator with more experience. Say Danny, a bit off topic, but wondering if you have any contact with Kyle and/or Brent. A few of us over on the latter half(out of 6 pages) of the gtx660ti max aa comment thread were wondering about the possible effect of varying rop count on not only that article but the whole four part series. There was no mention of that difference in specifications between tested cards in any of the articles and I didn't read every comment on every one of the previous threads( I read at least several pages on each, but reading hundreds of comments can be somewhat brain melting. Maybe if you aren't too busy you could take a look at a few of my posts over there about it and see if you think they have any merit?(sorry a few are pretty long, especially before I was informed about the wrapping text thing) If so, do you think you could pass the sentiment along to Brent or Kyle. We were curious what they might have to say about it.

Also, I had some thoughts about the 7870/7850 launch article conclusion page and comments( I did read all of those). I believe it was Brent who concluded that the 7850 was an underwhelming release since it did not improve in a meaningful way versus the cheaper gtx560ti. While they mentioned the 7850's being able to run a higher level of tesselation in Batman, they seem to have forgotten to include the results showing 7850 being playable at higher settings than the gtx560ti in a couple of the other games, as well. Since there was improvement in the majority of the test suite one would think the 7850 would get a nod, but not in the conclusion nor in the comments that followed did anyone mention it. I would have posted something in the comment thread there, but since I just recently starting posting more heavily on [H] forum I think I missed a window(last post there was April 1st). So, I posted about some of the more relevant details on the gtx660ti aa thread(wrong place I guess but thought it had a chance of getting read there). Could you maybe take a look at that as well to see if different conclusion has merit and is something worth sharing with Kyle or Brent? I do enjoy reading especially the gpu articles here since cards are tested like gamers actually use them and not like other sites that run a bunch through a canned simulation. I guess I'm hoping that a little input from a reader helps to keep the article quality high in the future and avoid making potentially decision altering conclusions for video card buyers that don't include all the relevant facts.

 

[Dangman]

I have barely any contact with Kyle or Brent. Your best bet would be to post those comments in the respective nad relevant reviews threads of those GPUs and hope that Brent or Kyle will read them. Do not thread-jack or go off-topic like you did here. That's a warning by the way.

With that said, you do have to factor the context of that article, understand how they came to that conclusion, and the fact you can still draw your own conclusions from the data they have provided but with an updated set of context and worldview. I mean if the reader is unable or unwilling to actually look at the data and actually figure out his own conclusion, then he or she gets what they deserve for not taking the time to read. There's a reason why good computer hardware review sites post the actual data they measured/observed/obtained: The user is allowed to come to his or her own conclusion.