BecauseScience
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Anyone know what's up with 5K4000 availability? They were supposed to be available in quantity Q1 2012. Is it related to the flood? WD buyout? Something else?
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5K4000 Availability
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BecauseScience
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5k4000 is EOL already? Wow.
If anything replaces them you can be rest assured they will be WD clones, which means they will be a PITA to use in faux enterprise settings. Personally I'm seriously reconsidering the WD RE4's. If you have the case space then you might be able to survive using those. If not then the hunt is on...
BecauseScience
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RE4's are 7200rpm and 2TB max. I don't want to spin twice as many disks plus the extra power and heat from 7200rpm.
The best replacement WD has right now is probably the WD AV-GP line. They're not 7200rpm, are rated for 24x7, and have TLER. They max out at 3TB though.
Spending one dime on new WDC drives = the terrorists win.
BecauseScience
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They won when the US and European governments allowed Hitachi and Samsung to be bought out. We're just trying to get by in the aftermath.
WD and Toshiba have been very quiet about the details, but I believe many of the 3.5" HGST models have been sold to Toshiba. As to whether that includes the 5K4000, your guess is as good as mine.
I hope Toshiba starts selling some of the former HGST 3.5" HDDs soon.
I hope Toshiba starts selling some of the former HGST 3.5" HDDs soon.
No doubt, but I wouldn't consider RE4 drives just to "get by".
BecauseScience
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I can tell you exactly when Toshiba will start selling the 5k4000 design. It'll be exactly 30 days after I buy a dozen Seagate or WD's.
I don't doubt it for a second. That's always how things seem to work out isn't it. We can also be sure that if Toshiba makes any headway whatsoever pumping out drives from Hitachi's old fab that it won't be long until WD or Seagate get cranky and "make them an offer they can't refuse."
HOWEVER, if WD Blacks ever come down to 20-25cents/GB or less I'll change my tune since all joking about personal brand preference aside drives really come down to best ratio of price/size/warranty period, and a 5yr warranty makes the WD pill a little easier to swallow.
HOWEVER, if WD Blacks ever come down to 20-25cents/GB or less I'll change my tune since all joking about personal brand preference aside drives really come down to best ratio of price/size/warranty period, and a 5yr warranty makes the WD pill a little easier to swallow.
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Thanks. Always interesting to hear what a company's employees in the field are saying.
It is also interesting to read what the company itself is stating on the record.
On the WDC web page summarizing the HGST acquisition [link], there is a sidebar with all the relevant links (where the real meat and potatoes are). At the top is a Supplemental Information [link] which includes some interesting points regarding The Toshiba Agreements (bottom of page 6). I've copied that section below:
I draw your attention to:
1. Last sentence of first paragraph--Glaringly absent is any mention of the 4TB models, regardless of them being 4x1TB or 5x800GB. Weren't the 4TB [57]K4000s known and in existence as of 8Mar12? [I am accustomed to typos in forum postings, but not in formal documents for a corporation's investors. (But note the missing period at end of second paragraph.
)]2. Last sentence of third paragraph--Is there hope? (for the [57]K3000s) Damn if there isn't custormer demand waiting to be met! If I were a WDC shareholder, I'd be on the phone with Investor Relations asking for an explanation.
--UhClem
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Nice find UhClem, something just smells foul about this whole thing. The skeptic in me wonders if this isn't some elaborate charade and I question how serious Toshiba really is about pumping a significant amount of capital into longterm HDD production. Sure there are contracts and written agreements in place, some of which fall under the regulatory requirements, but I can't imagine WD is in any hurry and will drag foot wherever it can. Think about it - WDC buys out Hitachi for the purpose of killing a competitor that had been growing in popularity and chipping away at their marketshare, only to have to turn around and help create a new competitor in their market segment? At worst this was a wrecking job to buy themselves some time. At best, the neutering and looting of a company with superior IP, tech, design, production, products. Why rise up to the level of the competition when you have the funds to lower the competition back down to you. The skunks in the legal department are clever and will use any loophole and tactic they can find which benefits them without blatantly breaking regulatory requirements, make no mistake. They've certainly had more time to scheme and prepare than the regulators took in weighing the merits of the acquisition and consideration of the fallout.
As for the 4TB IP, I'm sure its being withheld by WD because they know that's the next defacto form factor and don't even have their own product offering in that capacity. Really, when you look at WDC's product lineup, it pretty much trails EVERYONE else in terms of tech & capacity. They've been a non-factor in SAS and to an extent enterprise, didn't even ship their first SAS drives until 2010, waste time on new Velociraptor SKU's and wannabe streaming boxes, totally inept in the SSD segment, etc. As it turns out however, what they've done well from a purely business standpoint all these years, and unlike the other HDD manufacturers, was pumped more money into marketing than they did into tech and R&D. It's plain as day looking at their lacking product lineup. Incidentally not unlike Apple in that regard - a marketing company in a tech overcoat. All their OEM supply agreements with the PC vendors combined with the popularity of their external HDD's really filled up the warchest. Apparently you don't have to make the best product, if you just make a lot of it and grease the right wheels.
All we can do is wait and see what develops in the 3TB and 4TB segments, which is now a wasteland.
R.I.P. Hitachi, and WDC can pound dirt.
As for the 4TB IP, I'm sure its being withheld by WD because they know that's the next defacto form factor and don't even have their own product offering in that capacity. Really, when you look at WDC's product lineup, it pretty much trails EVERYONE else in terms of tech & capacity. They've been a non-factor in SAS and to an extent enterprise, didn't even ship their first SAS drives until 2010, waste time on new Velociraptor SKU's and wannabe streaming boxes, totally inept in the SSD segment, etc. As it turns out however, what they've done well from a purely business standpoint all these years, and unlike the other HDD manufacturers, was pumped more money into marketing than they did into tech and R&D. It's plain as day looking at their lacking product lineup. Incidentally not unlike Apple in that regard - a marketing company in a tech overcoat. All their OEM supply agreements with the PC vendors combined with the popularity of their external HDD's really filled up the warchest. Apparently you don't have to make the best product, if you just make a lot of it and grease the right wheels.
All we can do is wait and see what develops in the 3TB and 4TB segments, which is now a wasteland.
R.I.P. Hitachi, and WDC can pound dirt.
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BlueLineSwinger
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Absent of any context that chart is meaningless.
Everyone here needs to keep in mind that people like us (power users) are the very small majority in terms of market share. In WDC's eyes (and Seagates to a large part as well) you are either:
1. A consumer (who is just running 1 or 2 single drives per computer). They consider the Greens to be the category for that and offer a variety of drives from 500GB-3TB. They are slated to work on a single drive basis to a single controller port.
2. A Prosumer. If you want faster random access times they offer the Black drives. If you want hardware RAID support, they offer the RE drives.
3.An enterprise user. Here is one of the reasons they purchased Hitachi, their SAS enterprise portfolio. This will augment their existing stuff but largely replace it.
There is no great pressure on them to offer larger drives right now, especially in the enterprise space. As far as they are concerned, if you need more space, buy more enclosures and buy more drives. In the consumer drives, if they do offer a larger drive then be prepared to pay through the nose on a $/GB ratio because if you need it you'll pay it.
Also, for people like us with the disposable income and propensity to build home servers, there is more (in their view) a huge delta between want and need. Do I really need the xvid rips of all 9 seasons of All In The Family available online to any of my HTPC's? No. Do I want it? Sure. If I decide I have to have 30TB, I will buy 10 3TB drives or I will buy 15 2TB drives. And they will be happier selling me 15. 15 lower density drives, that require fewer platters, lower power steppers, etc.
As a percentage of support costs and warranty claims, the consumer market dwarfs the enterprise users in the amount of calls, returns, etc even taking the volume differences into account). One big reason for this are consumers buying big drives where compatibility is an issue on older machines, or bitching loudly (and publicly) when a drive dies (as does happen) and they lost EVERYTHING they ever had (the fact that they didn't back ANY of the data up is lost on them)
If/When Seagate gets on the ball and offers a more compatible (this means different things to different people, choose your compatibility specs as you want... HW RAID support, particular adapter support, etc) drives, bigger drives etc then WDC may pop out some bigger/better stuff. Or when/if Toshiba ramps up it may happen there too. Also, SSD's are starting to nip at their heels on the very low end (keep in mind that they still sell 80GB HDDs). Until there is an outcry from the general public about the lack of high-capacity alternatives, they have no great pressure to introduce higher capacity drives in volume.
1. A consumer (who is just running 1 or 2 single drives per computer). They consider the Greens to be the category for that and offer a variety of drives from 500GB-3TB. They are slated to work on a single drive basis to a single controller port.
2. A Prosumer. If you want faster random access times they offer the Black drives. If you want hardware RAID support, they offer the RE drives.
3.An enterprise user. Here is one of the reasons they purchased Hitachi, their SAS enterprise portfolio. This will augment their existing stuff but largely replace it.
There is no great pressure on them to offer larger drives right now, especially in the enterprise space. As far as they are concerned, if you need more space, buy more enclosures and buy more drives. In the consumer drives, if they do offer a larger drive then be prepared to pay through the nose on a $/GB ratio because if you need it you'll pay it.
Also, for people like us with the disposable income and propensity to build home servers, there is more (in their view) a huge delta between want and need. Do I really need the xvid rips of all 9 seasons of All In The Family available online to any of my HTPC's? No. Do I want it? Sure. If I decide I have to have 30TB, I will buy 10 3TB drives or I will buy 15 2TB drives. And they will be happier selling me 15. 15 lower density drives, that require fewer platters, lower power steppers, etc.
As a percentage of support costs and warranty claims, the consumer market dwarfs the enterprise users in the amount of calls, returns, etc even taking the volume differences into account). One big reason for this are consumers buying big drives where compatibility is an issue on older machines, or bitching loudly (and publicly) when a drive dies (as does happen) and they lost EVERYTHING they ever had (the fact that they didn't back ANY of the data up is lost on them)
If/When Seagate gets on the ball and offers a more compatible (this means different things to different people, choose your compatibility specs as you want... HW RAID support, particular adapter support, etc) drives, bigger drives etc then WDC may pop out some bigger/better stuff. Or when/if Toshiba ramps up it may happen there too. Also, SSD's are starting to nip at their heels on the very low end (keep in mind that they still sell 80GB HDDs). Until there is an outcry from the general public about the lack of high-capacity alternatives, they have no great pressure to introduce higher capacity drives in volume.
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^^ Very well said. Basically unless you've got the money to buy tons of enterprise drives you are basically hiding in the shadows hoping WD and Seagate don't realize you're there eating off the crumbs of models they've forgot to make incompatible or a PITA to work with.
This is why I'm reconsidering the lower density drive in enterprise format (I am still on the fence though). I'm thinking long term. Not just now. In my situation my enclosure is going to take me to at least 20 drives. I'm not going to buy 20 drives right now. I'll probably buy them in packs of 6 which means that the first pack needs to set the stage for the next 6 and so on and so on.
Right now 2TB is the sweet spot. However, WD and Seagate are charging and arm and a leg for it in enterprise format. Not so for the consumer version of the drives but they are disabling or making it very hard for people to use these drives in RAID configurations. That's not to say it's impossible to get these consumer drives to play nice, but it's still a headache more often than not depending on the drive you select.
This is why I'm reconsidering the lower density drive in enterprise format (I am still on the fence though). I'm thinking long term. Not just now. In my situation my enclosure is going to take me to at least 20 drives. I'm not going to buy 20 drives right now. I'll probably buy them in packs of 6 which means that the first pack needs to set the stage for the next 6 and so on and so on.
Right now 2TB is the sweet spot. However, WD and Seagate are charging and arm and a leg for it in enterprise format. Not so for the consumer version of the drives but they are disabling or making it very hard for people to use these drives in RAID configurations. That's not to say it's impossible to get these consumer drives to play nice, but it's still a headache more often than not depending on the drive you select.
Well, I can point you to a post I just made here in another thread, which basically just sums up the "right tool for the right job" speech. What are your needs? Is this going to be a home install with just a few users pulling video for htpcs, or a box that you are going to be maintaining for SQL or Exchange use? How many users will hit the drive(s)? What OS, hardware type and filesystem are you planning on using (eg Areca Hardware RAID6 SAS with SAS or SATA drives running Windows 2008 and NTFS, Or OI and ZFS on an M1015?). How much storage do you really need? What is your budget? What is your backup workflow for the data (unfortunately, much too often overlooked)? With more specifics I can give you a more reasoned response about what might be right given the answers
Addendum:
But note that does not cover the 3TB models!
[When you're dealing with lawyers, you have to pay close attention to what they say ... and even closer attention to what they don't say.]
-- UhClem
"Welcome to the Future Fair--a fair for everyone, and no fair to anybody."
Oh I'm pretty good on use. I was just making the point that while the consumer drives are cheaper they come at a cost which usually isn't realized until much much later.
Yeah, that chart does not make sense. Why would failure rates be presented on a pie chart with the failure rates of the manufacturers adding up to 100% ?
I guess that what we are looking at is the relative number of drives out of a particular sample of drives (eg., a large company or datacenter) that failed. But that does NOT give failure rates of the manufacturers, since it depends on how many of each manufacturers drives were in the sample. For example, maybe there were 10M Seagates in the sample, and 500K failed, while there were only 1M Hitachis in the sample, and 50K failed -- they would both have a 5% failure rate, but the Seagate 500K would show a 10x larger piece of pie (platter) than Hitachi 50K on the pie chart.
The pie chart just does not make sense as a visualization of manufacturer "failure rates".
Apologies, that pie chart wasn't intended to derail this into the Harddisk Reliability Thread(tm). I put it there for anyone that remembers the Storelab study a few years ago, in the context of my "RIP, Hitachi" statement. But for anyone that missed it Toms recaps it: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/hdd-reliability-storelab,2681-4.html
The thing about it was it pretty much mirrored the experience of myself and colleagues (and a couple people on the forum here with several hundred Hitachi's in datacenters) that were managing quantities of hundreds of thousands of these drives. Even at home where I once had 192 Hitachi's at highest count, in the last 5 years I've only had to RMA a single one and that was my fault for mishandling/dropping. I concede I might have just been lucky, not to mention that I didn't own all of them for the entire 5 years (only the oldest 1TB's), but point is that in 5 years I simply never found myself filling out Hitachi RMA forms and sending drives in. Didn't happen.
Many of us started out not knowing the merits of the Hitachi's, and in my case having a mixture of 48 Seagates, 48 WD's, and having them fail frequently enough to be a nuisance, to the point eventually and slowly they were phased out for Hitachi's which simply weren't. The more drives of a particular make/model you own, the more likely you may be to see patterns emerge which affect buying decisions, regardless of how irrational or unscientific it may be. Perception is reality. And I know my experience is not unique. What I do know is you'd be hard pressed to find reports of systematic failures of significant quantities of Hitachi's where external factors like heat or mishandling didn't also come into play.
But that's neither here nor there now, Hitachi is dead but its also why some of us are annoyed by WDC killing a good thing and ultimately killing choice.
The thing about it was it pretty much mirrored the experience of myself and colleagues (and a couple people on the forum here with several hundred Hitachi's in datacenters) that were managing quantities of hundreds of thousands of these drives. Even at home where I once had 192 Hitachi's at highest count, in the last 5 years I've only had to RMA a single one and that was my fault for mishandling/dropping. I concede I might have just been lucky, not to mention that I didn't own all of them for the entire 5 years (only the oldest 1TB's), but point is that in 5 years I simply never found myself filling out Hitachi RMA forms and sending drives in. Didn't happen.
Many of us started out not knowing the merits of the Hitachi's, and in my case having a mixture of 48 Seagates, 48 WD's, and having them fail frequently enough to be a nuisance, to the point eventually and slowly they were phased out for Hitachi's which simply weren't. The more drives of a particular make/model you own, the more likely you may be to see patterns emerge which affect buying decisions, regardless of how irrational or unscientific it may be. Perception is reality. And I know my experience is not unique. What I do know is you'd be hard pressed to find reports of systematic failures of significant quantities of Hitachi's where external factors like heat or mishandling didn't also come into play.
But that's neither here nor there now, Hitachi is dead but its also why some of us are annoyed by WDC killing a good thing and ultimately killing choice.
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BecauseScience
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Backblaze has seen a failure rate of less than 1% on the 5K3000. In their words:
They have approximately 9,000 of disks in production at any given time, not exactly anecdotal evidence.
RIP 5k3000.
They have approximately 9,000 of disks in production at any given time, not exactly anecdotal evidence.
RIP 5k3000.
I just put in 8 of the Hitachi Ultrastar 7K4000 HUS724040ALE640 4TB Enterprise drives into a Raid 6 using an Areca Card. I got lucky about a month ago and found them available just minutes after they put the first batch into inventory. I paid $506 each. I didn't think that was too bad given that we had paid ~$300 for the WD RE4 WD2003FYYS 2TB recently.
They have been running good so far, no issues, but then again I don't expect any...they are Hitachi drives! I should have bought more of them given the currently mergers and uncertainty.
They have been running good so far, no issues, but then again I don't expect any...they are Hitachi drives! I should have bought more of them given the currently mergers and uncertainty.
There are still a few 3TB drives here and there....
http://www.amazon.com/Deskstar-3-5-Inch-Internal-Bare-OEM-0S03230/dp/B004Q3QM9U
http://www.amazon.com/Deskstar-3-5-Inch-Internal-Bare-OEM-0S03230/dp/B004Q3QM9U
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Yeah, but at the price they are ($269-$279), you might start thinking to a faster server-oriented drive like the Seagate Constellation ES.2 3TB drive for about $30-$40 more, or the SAS version which adds another $80-90 (both are on the QVL for just about all the HBA vendors and the drives have 5 year warranties). Most of the people here were looking for the Hitachi because they generally ran $99-$159 (even $179 a while after the flood). Once you start going up in price you have more options.
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Yep madcover there's no question they're still around, and will be for some time to come in the grey market, I think the main issue is the price reflects the distro channels having dried up. On the topic of the thread (5K4000), example there's THIS guy in Canada with a large lot of 5K4000's selling for $299. http:///86gjb3v
EDIT: Completely agree with mwroobel though -- I would absolutely go Seagate - especially a 5yr warranty model - before I _overpaid_ for a Hitachi at this stage of the game, for the simple fact WDC is reportedly already returning WD drives to people sending in Hitachi RMA's (again credit to mwroobel).
EDIT: Completely agree with mwroobel though -- I would absolutely go Seagate - especially a 5yr warranty model - before I _overpaid_ for a Hitachi at this stage of the game, for the simple fact WDC is reportedly already returning WD drives to people sending in Hitachi RMA's (again credit to mwroobel).
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/!\ Seagate 3 To Constallation ES.2 ST33000650NS
cf : http://www.seagate.com/files/www-co...us/docs/constellation-es2-po0100-4-1207us.pdf
Today Hitachi 4 TB 7k4000 HDS724040ALA640 (Deskstar model) is in stock
... what is the difference between HDS724040ALA640 and HDS724040ALE640 ????
(have in mind, Hitachi Enterprise class is "Ultrastar" with reference for 4 TB : HUS724040ALE640)
HDS724040ALE640 in test : http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/4tb-3tb-hdd,3183-8.html
Cheers.
St3f
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... what is the difference between HDS724040ALA640 and HDS724040ALE640 ????
(have in mind, Hitachi Enterprise class is "Ultrastar" with reference for 4 TB : HUS724040ALE640)
HDS724040ALE640 in test : http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/4tb-3tb-hdd,3183-8.html
Cheers.
St3f
Personally, I believe that when they saw Seagate not shipping ANY 4TB internals that they pulled the Deskstar 7k4000s and figured that anyone that NEEDED a 4TB internal FF would pay through the nose for the Ultrastars. From what I remember about the availability, it shipped (Retail pack I believe) for about 3 months and then dried up.
You are right or course. In my case, I just decided to pony up for a few hot spares, since I don't want to deal with mixing drives in an array. Sure, it will work fine, but I am funny like that. I like them to match.
Whenever it's time for me to move up to a bigger array, then I'll be moving on to whatever the latest and greatest is. I really hope that in the next few years, we can return to the joy of 100 dollar price points and excellent all around Areca + expander compatibility.
You are right or course. In my case, I just decided to pony up for a few hot spares, since I don't want to deal with mixing drives in an array. Sure, it will work fine, but I am funny like that. I like them to match.
No doubt, wasn't at all suggesting to mix the Seagates into the existing Hitachi array. I meant for building new arrays going forward. Example my 16 x Seagate 3TB RAID6, even though every disk passed a double surface scan individually before creating the array, is still in "wait and see" mode as scratch/secondary backup space for _at least_ 6 months of torture testing before considering standardizing on the Seagate 1TB/platter platform in the event a spiritual successor to the Hitachi's never materializes from Toshiba or whatever.
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Toshiba marketing exec interviewed:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/storage/display/toshiba-storage-interview-2012_6.html
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/storage/display/toshiba-storage-interview-2012_6.html
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