3D hack for 2D TV

[ScottSwing]

Are there any hacks that will allow one with a regular television to use shutter glasses?
I was thinking of using an HDMI splitter, connect one end to the TV and the other to an IR dongle sitting atop the television.
Is there hardware readily available for this? Or are there sites that explain exactly what infrared signal is sent to the glasses?

Or maybe I could use it without infrared and just calibrate it once. How bad could it desync?

 

[BDV]

Just buy a 3D TV... will be cheaper and better that way.

 

[ScottSwing]

Just buy a 3D TV... will be cheaper and better that way.

I won't and it won't.

1. 3D TVs cost $2000+.
2. Sharp doesn't make them.
3. I want to hack my current model, not replace it.

 

[SJetski71]

This is where you'd find out for sure: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/

 

[MrGuvernment]

Not likely, and if you could you would likely need to buy expensive parts to do it, hence why 3D are $2k plus (and cause they are new)

 

[RadXge]

Drink a lot of beer before watching your TV and you will see all the stuff in 3D.

What about the headache?
Well, it would be no different from watching "true" 3D material through the stupid glasses...

 

[jiminator]

your questions are meaningless, and in any case they are probably silly. Exactly what type of tv do you want to hack? In any case since the hack is occurring before the TV your picture will now have to be interlaced, which means what, 15 fps? sounds like a great experience.

 

[evilsofa]

What TV do you have?

One problem is that using shutter glasses with a screen that displays less than 60Hz per eye (120Hz total) will cause headaches, nausea and vomiting. If the screen is displaying 60Hz total, you'll be taking the shutter glasses off in about 10 seconds.

 

[MaZa]

To OP, you cant. Shutter based 3D requires atleast 120Hz to be acceptable. Below and it caused too noticeable flickering and therefore headaches. Reason for this is that shutter technology divides the refresh ratio in two, your both eyes see 60Hz flickering picture. If you try this with 60Hz monitor or TV then your eyes see 30Hz badly flickering mess.

So 60Hz TVs and monitors are pretty much limited to anaglyph red-green or red-blue glasses, which are migraine inducing in their own not to mention butchered colors and there are pretty much no anaglyph sources anymore (last I remember was some short Shrek 3D DVD garbage)

There is also light polarized 3D that is used in 3d cinemas, like Avatar 3D but I have no idea how it works and what it requires from the TV to work.


Actually I have no idea how these new 3D TVs even work? Are they real 120Hz TVs that accept 120Hz signal in unlike normal 120Hz TV's, and then work with shutter technology or what?

 

[ScottSwing]

What TV do you have?

Sharp LC 40E77/UN. 120Hz.

One problem is that using shutter glasses with a screen that displays less than 60Hz per eye (120Hz total) will cause headaches, nausea and vomiting. If the screen is displaying 60Hz total, you'll be taking the shutter glasses off in about 10 seconds.

Movies are only encoded at 24Hz.

your questions are meaningless

Only because you don't understand the technology involved.

To OP, you cant. Shutter based 3D requires atleast 120Hz to be acceptable. Below and it caused too noticeable flickering and therefore headaches. Reason for this is that shutter technology divides the refresh ratio in two, your both eyes see 60Hz flickering picture. If you try this with 60Hz monitor or TV then your eyes see 30Hz badly flickering mess.

I've got a 120Hz TV. And LCDs don't flicker.

Actually I have no idea how these new 3D TVs even work? Are they real 120Hz TVs that accept 120Hz signal in unlike normal 120Hz TV's, and then work with shutter technology or what?

120Hz or 240Hz (preferred). In 3D mode, it shows the left eye image, then the right eye image, then moves to the next frame and does the same thing. The glasses alternately block the light to each eye in sync with the displayed picture. This is unlike other 3D technologies which show the left eye and right eye frame at the same time.

 

[jiminator]

Sharp LC 40E77/UN. 120Hz.Movies are only encoded at 24Hz. Only because you don't understand the technology involved.
I've got a 120Hz TV. And LCDs don't flicker.

LOL... good luck with that. of the manufacturers pushing 3D tech they are suggesting 600Hz plasmas, and saying that 240Hz will also work. The big problem is what type of input signal your tv accepts. For 3D it has to be twice the bandwidth of current 1080p. If 1080p is the max then you would have to have some hack that takes a 1080p 3d signal and drops 1/2 the frames

 

[ScottSwing]

LOL... good luck with that. of the manufacturers pushing 3D tech they are suggesting 600Hz plasmas, and saying that 240Hz will also work. The big problem is what type of input signal your tv accepts. For 3D it has to be twice the bandwidth of current 1080p. If 1080p is the max then you would have to have some hack that takes a 1080p 3d signal and drops 1/2 the frames

Movies are only 24Hz. Watching them on a 60Hz display isn't unheard of.

I'm going to encode a 120Hz video now to see what happens.

 

[Benny]

(read imagining a german accent)

The cheapest way to create a 3D monitor would be to wear an eyepatch... it even works with non-3d movies...
(you loose stereo vision and the only way your brain can stile recognize you are looking at a flat surface is by the way the eye(s) focus,
... which is also why "real" 3D monitors feel weird, your eyes will still try to focus according to the expected distance decreasing the 3D illusion)


for converting 2D to "real" 3D..

Shutter:

And LCDs don't flicker.

shutter glasses work by adding flicker in front of your eyes... they need to flicker at half the rate the TV alternates left/right pictures... 60Hz signal, 30Hz flicker.

your 120Hz TV is lacking the option of real 120Hz INPUT. .. so you're stuck with 30Hz (60Hz signal) shutter, which would flicker like the devil having a disco party in hell...
Search for 120Hz monitors and TVs in the forum for more information on the 120Hz input matter.

Polarization:

The light of an LCD is already polarized (that's how the crystals block the light) so adding it afterwards is very problematic. (the polarized LCD monitors are TN based because the simple LCD structure allows for eye-specific polarization... in a very narrow angle, with ASV/PVA you are out of luck)

On a plasma it could theoretically be possible to add a polarization filter, alternating the polarization every line of pixels... but the amount of work required applying the filter would be immense.

Parallax barrier

there's also the option of using a filter to redirect the light to only hit one eye, without using glasses, but the viewing angle will be very very small..

but If you want to try a conversion your only option would be parallax...
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1467

Only because you don't understand the technology involved.

ok.... how long did you read up on the basic technology before starting the thread..?

 

[ScottSwing]

your 120Hz TV is lacking the option of real 120Hz INPUT. .. so you're stuck with 30Hz (60Hz signal) shutter, which would flicker like the devil having a disco party in hell...

I just made a test video at 120Hz and one at 75Hz and it appears that I am lacking 120Hz input. Or it could just be a compatibility issue with my PS3. Still, shitty 3D is better than none at all.

Shutter:


shutter glasses work by adding flicker in front of your eyes... they need to flicker at half the rate the TV alternates left/right pictures... 60Hz signal, 30Hz flicker.

your 120Hz TV is lacking the option of real 120Hz INPUT. .. so you're stuck with 30Hz (60Hz signal) shutter, which would flicker like the devil having a disco party in hell...
Search for 120Hz monitors and TVs in the forum for more information on the 120Hz input matter.

Polarization:

The light of an LCD is already polarized (that's how the crystals block the light) so adding it afterwards is very problematic. (the polarized LCD monitors are TN based because the simple LCD structure allows for eye-specific polarization... in a very narrow angle, with ASV/PVA you are out of luck)

On a plasma it could theoretically be possible to add a polarization filter, alternating the polarization every line of pixels... but the amount of work required applying the filter would be immense.

Parallax barrier

there's also the option of using a filter to redirect the light to only hit one eye, without using glasses, but the viewing angle will be very very small..

but If you want to try a conversion your only option would be parallax...
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1467

And then there's analglyph.

I didn't want to try any of those methods due to the complexity involved, the least of which would be re-encoding all the videos, but it may be unavoidable at this point. I'm still looking into the shutter 3D option.

ok.... how long did you read up on the basic technology before starting the thread..?

I'm pretty familiar with the basic technology, but of course not specific hardware features. Thus this thread.

Is there any hardware difference between HDMI 1.0 and 1.4? What happens if you play a 3D Blu ray in a non-3D player?

 

[Benny]

I just made a test video at 120Hz and one at 75Hz and it appears that I am lacking 120Hz input. Or it could just be a compatibility issue with my PS3. Still, shitty 3D is better than none at all.

Both, but especially the TV
120Hz is achieved through:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_interpolation
using a 60Hz input.
(the PS3 does have the HDMI hardware bandwith... but I can't recall it being able to output more than 60Hz [2D], ...software limitation)

Is there any hardware difference between HDMI 1.0 and 1.4?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_comparison

What happens if you play a 3D Blu ray in a non-3D player?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#3D_Blu-ray_Disc

 

[MaZa]

Movies are only encoded at 24Hz.

Thats meaningless. As I said, shutter glasses flicker at half of the monitors/tvs refresh rate. This technology works by switching back and forth which eye sees the pictures with different angles. Thats why you see the picture in two when you take glasses off, TV rapidly changes the picture of same scene between different angles. This is why high refresh rate is needed so you dont see the changing pictures, with glasses your one eye sees one picture angle and other eye another angle picture. On low refresh rate it simply doesnt work, you see changing pictures with different angles and flicker only hurts your eyes.

 

[evilsofa]

I just made a test video at 120Hz and one at 75Hz and it appears that I am lacking 120Hz input. Or it could just be a compatibility issue with my PS3.

Is there any hardware difference between HDMI 1.0 and 1.4? What happens if you play a 3D Blu ray in a non-3D player?

The PS3 has HDMI 1.3, and cannot be upgraded to HDMI 1.4. HDMI 1.3 is only capable of doing 3D at 1080i. HDMI 1.3 doesn't have the bandwidth to allow 120Hz at 1920x1080, so the PS3 cannot do it.

Sony has said they will still support 3D on the PS3 by having you buy a special TV that supports it. The PS3 will send a 60Hz signal for one eye and depth of field info to the special TV, which will generate the 60Hz signal for the other eye using the depth of field info.

 

[MaZa]

The PS3 has HDMI 1.3, and cannot be upgraded to HDMI 1.4. HDMI 1.3 is only capable of doing 3D at 1080i. HDMI 1.3 doesn't have the bandwidth to allow 120Hz at 1920x1080, so the PS3 cannot do it.

Sony has said they will still support 3D on the PS3 by having you buy a special TV that supports it. The PS3 will send a 60Hz signal for one eye and depth of field info to the special TV, which will generate the 60Hz signal for the other eye using the depth of field info.

Does it really work? As it sounds like bubblegumfix to me so far.

 

[jiminator]

so a "special" tv will allow you to use an existing PS3. eh, IMO the whole thing needs to cook for 5 years before it is practical. early adopters always get screwed.

 

[ScottSwing]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_comparison

Of course I've checked wikipedia, but it doesn't explain what's done through hardware and what's done through software.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#3D_Blu-ray_Disc

Now, tell me how this answers my question.

The PS3 has HDMI 1.3, and cannot be upgraded to HDMI 1.4. HDMI 1.3 is only capable of doing 3D at 1080i. HDMI 1.3 doesn't have the bandwidth to allow 120Hz at 1920x1080, so the PS3 cannot do it.

Then I can do it at 720p or at 60Hz.

Can anyone point me to a site where the shutter glasses' infrared signal is explained in detail?

 

[ScottSwing]

so a "special" tv will allow you to use an existing PS3. eh, IMO the whole thing needs to cook for 5 years before it is practical. early adopters always get screwed.

Exactly. That's why I'm not blowing three grand on a crappy Samsung so I can watch Monsters vs. Aliens.

 

[ScottSwing]

The PS3 has HDMI 1.3, and cannot be upgraded to HDMI 1.4.

I just tried to run the MLB 10 3D demo and got this error:

"FAILED TO DETECT A 3D CAPABLE DISPLAY"
Possible reasons:
*The Connected display is not HDMI 1.4 compliant

So apparently there's some kind of HDMI 1.4 support.

I remember people bashing Sony before the PS3 was released because they wanted to include 120Hz support, but I don't know how far they got with it.

 

[Habeed]

Actually, there's several ways to do this. I've done it myself.

1. If your TV is an LCD, then you need to buy a second one of your TV and a half silvered mirror. You can then build yourself a planar display that will show things in 3d if you are wearing polarized glasses. I've done this. Content has to be 3d of course. Works best with PC games, but there are viewers for special format movies and still images.

2. If your TV is a stand alone projector, you can buy a second projector, or rapidly alternate between images and use shutter glasses with a single projector. With a second projector, you put polarized lenses before each projector and use a special silvered screen and polarized glasses.

3. If your TV is rear projection, you convert it to front projection and do it like in case 2.

4. If your TV is CRT, you can use shutter glasses.

5. If your TV is none of these, you can do a trick with some mirrors that is complicated but will work for nearly any TV, although the 3d effect is very uncomfortable to use.

About the only cost effective thing is using shutter glasses on an existing display that has low ghosting, however, which would only cost you about $50-$100. Everything else would be pretty expensive to crazy expensive.

 

[Digital Viper-X-]

To OP, you cant. Shutter based 3D requires atleast 120Hz to be acceptable. Below and it caused too noticeable flickering and therefore headaches. Reason for this is that shutter technology divides the refresh ratio in two, your both eyes see 60Hz flickering picture. If you try this with 60Hz monitor or TV then your eyes see 30Hz badly flickering mess.

So 60Hz TVs and monitors are pretty much limited to anaglyph red-green or red-blue glasses, which are migraine inducing in their own not to mention butchered colors and there are pretty much no anaglyph sources anymore (last I remember was some short Shrek 3D DVD garbage)

There is also light polarized 3D that is used in 3d cinemas, like Avatar 3D but I have no idea how it works and what it requires from the TV to work.


Actually I have no idea how these new 3D TVs even work? Are they real 120Hz TVs that accept 120Hz signal in unlike normal 120Hz TV's, and then work with shutter technology or what?

LCDs don't actually flicker.
Panasonics 3D Plasma TV's are 60Hz

LOL... good luck with that. of the manufacturers pushing 3D tech they are suggesting 600Hz plasmas, and saying that 240Hz will also work. The big problem is what type of input signal your tv accepts. For 3D it has to be twice the bandwidth of current 1080p. If 1080p is the max then you would have to have some hack that takes a 1080p 3d signal and drops 1/2 the frames

600hz subfield drive PLasma TVs don't run at 600hz, they run at 60hz, the 600Hz subfield drive is a total marketing ploy. It describes that the screen is split up into 10 sections, each section running at 60hz, and somehow this adds up to 600hz well it does, the "engine" has to refresh 10 small screen portions @ 60hz each, so technically it drives each sub field @ 60hz, equaling 600hz when using 10 subfields.
Still 60hz on the panel though.

 

[kllrnohj]

LCDs don't actually flicker.
Panasonics 3D Plasma TV's are 60Hz

If they use shutter glasses, its 120Hz. You simply can't do shutter glasses 3D at 60Hz.

@OP: Pretty much you can't do shutter glasses 3d with your current TV. Just isn't happening.

 

[Digital Viper-X-]

If they use shutter glasses, its 120Hz. You simply can't do shutter glasses 3D at 60Hz.

@OP: Pretty much you can't do shutter glasses 3d with your current TV. Just isn't happening.

Sure you can, 30/30
I read it was 60hz, before release

I'll look for more info!

 

[kllrnohj]

Sure you can, 30/30
I read it was 60hz, before release

I'll look for more info!

They tried 30/30, it really doesn't work. The flicker is too noticeable and causes headaches and nausea.

 

[ScottSwing]

They tried 30/30, it really doesn't work. The flicker is too noticeable and causes headaches and nausea.

Well, I'm not "they." I don't get nauseous.

 

[MaZa]

Well, I'm not "they." I don't get nauseous.

Perhaps, but it is certain way to butcher your eyes. Hell, even with 120Hz (60/60) is not recommended for extended periods because eyes do not like the flicker.

 

[kllrnohj]

Well, I'm not "they." I don't get nauseous.

Sure you do, you also get headaches. Whether or not you will from 30/30 is unknown (I'm betting you will). You could always find out by flashing an image on your monitor for 1 frame, and then solid black for 1 frame, with the monitor at 60hz. It won't be a perfect simulation of 30/30 3d, but it should be close enough.

 

[chong67]

Is there such thing as hardware 3D and fake 3D?

I thought putting on 3d glasses and watching it on regular TV is already 3D? Or its fake 3D?

 

[jiminator]

if you mean the red/green glasses, yeah, that will work, but the image quality sucks.
I don't think anyone is selling shutter glasses that will work with regular TVs.
for polarization, which theaters use, there are no current consumer implementations

 

[kllrnohj]

Is there such thing as hardware 3D and fake 3D?

I thought putting on 3d glasses and watching it on regular TV is already 3D? Or its fake 3D?

There are different types of 3d. There is the color glasses kind, which works with any display. There is the polarization kind, which requires a special display and I've only see used at movie theaters. There is the shutter glasses kind, which is the glasses with a small battery that rapidly switches which eye can see the screen 120 times a second. For that, the TV needs to be able to take a 120hz input and display 120hz. Simply put, you can't take a 60hz TV and use shutter glasses, because the TV needs to be able to display and take a 120hz input (these are the "3D Ready" TVs you'll find hitting the shelves).

 

[ScottSwing]

Sure you do, you also get headaches. Whether or not you will from 30/30 is unknown (I'm betting you will). You could always find out by flashing an image on your monitor for 1 frame, and then solid black for 1 frame, with the monitor at 60hz. It won't be a perfect simulation of 30/30 3d, but it should be close enough.

Yeah, I've made those at all framerates. My favorite is white-black-red-blue at 30 fps.

The point is I just want to see how to do this without spending any money.

 

[kllrnohj]

Yeah, I've made those at all framerates. My favorite is white-black-red-blue at 30 fps.

The point is I just want to see how to do this without spending any money.

anaglyph is your only real option. Sure, shutter glasses are better, but you can't use shutter glasses with your current TV.

 

[evilsofa]

The point is I just want to see how to do this without spending any money.

The whole point of the industry's movement to 3D is to get their customers to spend more money!

 

[NobleX13]

You would almost have to bypass your display's video controller/processor completely, and that's not easily accomplished.

 

[jiminator]

you can get batman enhanced edition for ps3 and it supports anaglyph 3d. that's about it though.

 

[Godmachine]

Well it seems Crytek intends to have the 360 able to do 3D as well for its Crysis 2 game , how they plan to do this ..not sure.

 

[okashira]

Sharp LC 40E77/UN. 120Hz.Movies are only encoded at 24Hz. Only because you don't understand the technology involved.
I've got a 120Hz TV. And LCDs don't flicker.

No you don't. You just have a TV that has the ability to update the screen on its own at 120Hz under certian circumstances. It can't actually playback 120Hz of real video.
The only thing these 120Hz TV's are really good for, IMO, is some of them can take a 24p input, e.g., a movie, and perform 1:5 pulldown for even playback without what the a/v guys have termed 'Judder.' A display which cannot update itself at 120Hz and only 60 must perform 3:2 pulldown, which is not ideal.

On the understanding technology comment.... Pot, meet Kettle.

Sigh. I think the folks here understand the difference between a CRT and an LCD. You don't need to tell everyone that "LCD's don't flicker." On the other hand, what others are trying to explain to you, is that the glasses you need to wear for the 3D effect with an LCD, flash a black (think calculator display, black liquid crystal when powered up) the clear again, 60 times per second. This will happen at 30 times per second if you try to use that 60Hz TV of yours. Hence the flicker.

I just made a test video at 120Hz and one at 75Hz and it appears that I am lacking 120Hz input. Or it could just be a compatibility issue with my PS3. Still, shitty 3D is better than none at all.

Is there any hardware difference between HDMI 1.0 and 1.4? What happens if you play a 3D Blu ray in a non-3D player?

Good question... I thought the PS3 with the new update will be capable of Blu Ray 3D (full 120Hz...) what are the details on this?

Then again, now that I think about it, 3D blu-rays should not require 120Hz input/output for 3D. Just 48Hz! The TV can then perform some pulldown to alternate the "45th and 46th frame," 2 or 3 times at 120Hz then the "47th and 48th frame," 2 or 3 times at 120Hz.

Also, doesn't regular old HDMI 1.3 (same as dual link DVI, I think...) just fine for 120Hz 1920 x 1080 x 120Hz??? See the ASUS and ACER 1080p PC monitors. They work just fine with DVI-D... and HDMI 1.3 can do 10.2 Gbit/s or so... What's the story behind the need for HDMI 1.4?

Can anyone point me to a site where the shutter glasses' infrared signal is explained in detail?

Google can help you.

It's really not complicated in any case. Let's take a 24Hz source like a movie, in 3D. You need two frames to make a single 3D frame. This is why you have two eyes. So, the bluray accomplishes outputting those two frames not together, but rather separately. They are probably sent sequentially to the TV. So basically you're dealing with 48 frames in one second.

Since a TV can only display one image at a time (duh...), we need to figure out a way to get your left eye to see the image intended to for the left eye and the right eye to see the image intended for the right eye. And the left eye should never see the image intended for the right eye, otherwise we're back at square one! The shutter glasses act to blank out your right eye while the TV is displaying the image intended for your left eye. The TV then switches to the image intended for your right eye of the same frame. Simultaneously, the shutter glasses will then remove the blank from your right eye and blank your left eye. Thus now your right eye is seeing the image intended for the right eye (and the left eye cannot see it, it's blanked!)

Let's call the frames of the first second of a movie 1a, 1b; 2a, 2b; 3a, 3b ... 24a, 24b. That's 48 images in one second, but still only 24 total real frames.

The bluray player streams these 48 frames sequentially, transferring the 48 frames to the TV (or AV receiver or whatever.) in one second, all at perfectly even intervals.

To create the 3D effect, the TV could simply display these 48 frames in order for that second. The shutter glasses would only need to switch "blank left, then blank right" 24 times in one second, and the goal is achieved.

But there is a huge problem here. Since the shutter glasses are switching at 48 times per second, this means that each eye is getting a transition from image to black to image 24 times per second. This would be EXTREMELY unpleasant. 24Hz of flickering is what you would see, and at best, the viewing experience would suck. At worst, you will get sick, headache, eye problems, etc.

To solve this, we take advantage of a TV which can switch images at a faster rate, 120Hz (but ideally 240Hz, or higher, IMO.)

The 120Hz TV then has 120 opportunities to display those 48 frames in one second. This is accomplished by displaying the frames in a pattern like this (may vary slightly):

1a, 1b, 1a, 1b, 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b, 3a, 3b, 3a, 3b, 4a, 4b, 4a, 4b, 4a, 4b, 5a, 5b, 5a, 5b, 6a ... 24a, 24b, 24a, 24b.

And the shutter glasses simply need to switch eyes to match the TV refresh, 120 times per second. But now we have each eye seeing "on off on" 60 times per second instead of 24 times per second. Which is much better. But still not great, which is why we really should have a 240Hz TV and 240Hz shutter glasses. The problem is, LCDs are just not fast enough for 240 frames per second. There will be a certain amount of bleed between images. This results in what is called 'crosstalk.' For good use of 240Hz, we need Plasma, DLP or OLED.

There's another, separate problem with the 120Hz display and 3D. Take a close look at the example pattern just above. See something peculiar? Yep, it's uneven. Sometimes a movie 3D frame will get to last 6 frames on the 120Hz TV, but other times only 4. This brings us back to square one, re-introducing Judder...which is what was good about 120Hz TV's to begin with, for smooth playback of 24Hz material. 48 doesn't divide into 120 without a remainder.

Sure, there is probably ways to better alleviate this, we can display 3 frames for the left eye, 2 frames for the right eye, then alternate to 2 frames for the left eye and 2 frames for the right eye. But this is still not ideal and may result in noticeable Judder. This is why 240Hz would be ideal for 3D movie playback ...

Now, using a projector or perhaps some sort of DLP system with polarizing and polarized glasses (just like the movie theatre,) can solve this problem, but they serve to also introduce other problems....

The best experience is likely to be achieved using a 240Hz fast display (plasma, OLED) and 240Hz shutter glasses. It will be even better then the theater.


(I typed this up pretty quick from memory and a little thought, and didn't proofread... I hope it makes sense.)