3D hack for 2D TV

[ScottSwing]

I understand how shutter 3D works, but the problem is that I have to do it 100% in software since I don't have 3D hardware.

The problem I have is decoding the video and making the glasses work, which I have to do manually.

HDMI 1.3 devices support 3D at 1080i, but I don't have the equipment to test my specific hardware for compatibility.

 

[kllrnohj]

The PS3 has HDMI 1.3, and cannot be upgraded to HDMI 1.4. HDMI 1.3 is only capable of doing 3D at 1080i. HDMI 1.3 doesn't have the bandwidth to allow 120Hz at 1920x1080, so the PS3 cannot do it.

HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 have the exact same amount of video and audio bandwidth. From what I can tell, HDMI 1.4 is mainly a profile update. There doesn't appear to be any reason the PS3 cannot simply get a firmware update to get the 3D part of 1.4. Sure, it won't get the ethernet over HDMI part, but who cares about that? So it can't be fully upgraded to 1.4, but I don't see why it can't get the video parts of 1.4.

Oh, and yes, HDMI 1.3 *DOES* have the bandwidth to do 1920x1080 at 120hz.

 

[MrGuvernment]

Sharp LC 40E77/UN. 120Hz.Movies are only encoded at 24Hz. Only because you don't understand the technology involved.
I've got a 120Hz TV. And LCDs don't flicker.
120Hz or 240Hz (preferred). In 3D mode, it shows the left eye image, then the right eye image, then moves to the next frame and does the same thing. The glasses alternately block the light to each eye in sync with the displayed picture. This is unlike other 3D technologies which show the left eye and right eye frame at the same time.

LCDs do flicker, i have seen it myself with 2 Dell LCD's we have at work, other people don't see it, but i do, or is that just the light behind it having issues? cause i do only see it under florescent lights when they are on.

 

[ScottSwing]

LCDs do flicker, i have seen it myself with 2 Dell LCD's we have at work, other people don't see it, but i do, or is that just the light behind it having issues? cause i do only see it under florescent lights when they are on.

Fluorescent lights flicker.

 

[evilsofa]

Fluorescent lights flicker.

And guess what most LCD monitors use for a backlight?

CCFL backlit LCD monitors use a PWM switch to reduce the brightness of the backlight. When at 100% brightness, a CCFL LCD monitor's backlight will run at thousands of Hz, impossible for the human eye to detect, but as the brightness is reduced, the flicker rate of the backlight on some LCD monitors can dip below 200Hz, which can bother those sensitive to flicker (MrGuvernment may be detecting this). There is no data on the rates at which backlights flicker because the manufacturers don't supply that information to anybody. LED backlights remove this issue completely.

Edit: It seems I am wrong about LED backlights removing this issue; LED backlights use PWM too.

 

[okashira]

I understand how shutter 3D works, but the problem is that I have to do it 100% in software since I don't have 3D hardware.

The problem I have is decoding the video and making the glasses work, which I have to do manually.

HDMI 1.3 devices support 3D at 1080i, but I don't have the equipment to test my specific hardware for compatibility.

HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 have the exact same amount of video and audio bandwidth. From what I can tell, HDMI 1.4 is mainly a profile update. There doesn't appear to be any reason the PS3 cannot simply get a firmware update to get the 3D part of 1.4. Sure, it won't get the ethernet over HDMI part, but who cares about that? So it can't be fully upgraded to 1.4, but I don't see why it can't get the video parts of 1.4.

Oh, and yes, HDMI 1.3 *DOES* have the bandwidth to do 1920x1080 at 120hz.

Have your original questions / concerns been answered, ScottSwing? If so, perhaps this can be closed.

Getting 3D to work on a 60Hz display should be relativly simple. But we have established that this should be done only for some limited testing purposes and not for any real usage. The fact is that flickering at 30Hz would, while not necessarily unbearable if you are resistant to the fatigue and nausea, would be much worse in any opinion compared to simply watching as intended in 2D.

Your best option for getting this done is hope to find some kind of hack for Nvidia's software/drivers to enable 3D with a sub-120Hz monitor. They may be relativly easy as the only real difference between the 3D enabled monitors and non-enabled monitors is the higher refresh rate. You will need to figure out a way to fool the Nvidia drivers/software into running on a non 120Hz monitor. Your other option is some software written by yourself.

It sounds like you want to use some off the shelf shutter glasses system, such as Nivdia, I believe their package includes glasses and the IR transmitter. But, if you have to buy these expensive glasses and IR transmitter.... then it should not be a big deal to buy the 120Hz monitor also, right?

Anyways, on getting the glasses to work, and the IR signal, etc. Your best bet is either 1. Trial and error or 2. Use a high speed camera or oscilloscope/light meter to watch the signal. This information is likely proprietary to Nvidia / Panasonic, meaning they are not cross compatible, etc. Also this information is certainty not public, there is no reason Nvidia or other companies like Panasonic would publish it and certainty not found on a forum like this. Before you embark on trial and error in getting the glasses to work or your oscilloscope/camera analysis, you will need to develop an understanding of all of the specifications / data transferred necessary for a system to work, such as - how does the IR signal to get glasses what eye should be blanked? How does it give the rate of blanking? this is probably done in real time and constantly as this would be required to compensate if the video playback jerked, paused or the rate varied slightly. On each switch, information about which eye needs to be transmitted on EACH frame as the glasses need to work, and resume operation if view of the IR transmitter is obscured temporarilty. There is probably a lo more stuff I didn't cover.

Then you could take your Bluray movie, rip the 24Hz 3D to a MKV, and figure out a way to re-encode it to a 48Hz video which plays frames (frame 1 left, frame 1 right, frame 2 left, frame 2 right, frame 3 left, frame 3 right.... etc....) sequentially in that order in any player This is probably the easy part. Then use the information from your trial and error / observation of the transmitter to tell the Nvidia software to trigger to switch the glasses at 48Hz to match playback and appropriately synced, etc. That or use your own software to communicate with the transmitter. You will have to make sure you compensate for the Judder induced when playing back 48 Hz on a 60Hz display, other wise the effect will be killed by excessive crosstalk every few frames.

Of course, you will have to make sure that future Nvidia driver/software updates don't break your hack if you use their drivers/software.

And this will only work on playback of your bluray movies which you've ripped to 48Hz. Getting it working in games and other applications will require a whole new effort! (best option here is the driver/software hack getting it to work on sub 120Hz displays, specifying a custom refresh rate.)

All that to get 3D working in limited applications in a state that will be all but unwatchable to save a couple hundred bucks.

Starting to see why this is not a good idea?

It's not likely you will find further help here, given those who have the technical understanding of the system to enable such a hack will also
1. recognize the foolishness of such a hack
2. have the cash to buy a 120Hz+ display
3. already have a 120Hz display.




Also thanks to the guy on the info of HDMI 1.3 vs 1.4 So 1.4 is just a code update, probably added flags to enable transmitted standard type of 3D data.
Basically 3D should be possible with HDMI 1.3 just fine. You just need a 120Hz display and the player emparts more control over the output (does all the frame alternation/sequencing at 120Hz and just outputs a normal 120Hz stream to the TV.

Perhaps this is how the PS3 does it, just outputs movies at 120Hz with its own frame alternation/sequencing (using some order and format similar to as described in my previous post) and controlling the switching of the glasses itself. You just need a TV which can accept a real 120Hz input, HDMI 1.4 is not nessisary.

Are there any 120Hz HDTV's?!? I thought there were only a couple of PC monitors like that. The 3D tvs are probably just 60Hz, which use the HDMI 1.4 standard to accept the additional frames and 3D information frame flags and do its own internal formatting and output of the video and shutter glasses synchronization.

This tells me that for the PS3's 3D to work (in 1080p) you will need a full "real" 120Hz TV that is 3D agnostic. Shutter glasses will be controlled by the PS3. Anyways, all this should go in to a new thread.

 

[kllrnohj]

Also thanks to the guy on the info of HDMI 1.3 vs 1.4 So 1.4 is just a code update, probably added flags to enable transmitted standard type of 3D data.
Basically 3D should be possible with HDMI 1.3 just fine. You just need a 120Hz display and the player emparts more control over the output (does all the frame alternation/sequencing at 120Hz and just outputs a normal 120Hz stream to the TV.

Perhaps this is how the PS3 does it, just outputs movies at 120Hz with its own frame alternation/sequencing (using some order and format similar to as described in my previous post) and controlling the switching of the glasses itself. You just need a TV which can accept a real 120Hz input, HDMI 1.4 is not nessisary.

Are there any 120Hz HDTV's?!? I thought there were only a couple of PC monitors like that. The 3D tvs are probably just 60Hz, which use the HDMI 1.4 standard to accept the additional frames and 3D information frame flags and do its own internal formatting and output of the video and shutter glasses synchronization.

This tells me that for the PS3's 3D to work (in 1080p) you will need a full "real" 120Hz TV that is 3D agnostic. Shutter glasses will be controlled by the PS3. Anyways, all this should go in to a new thread.

3D TVs are 120hz. Again, if they use shutter glasses, they are *at least* 120hz. I also suspect the PS3 will use the "real" HDMI 1.4 3D profile and be the same as other 3D blu-ray players as far as the TV is concerned. I don't know that, its just what I expect. That doesn't necessarily mean a 3D TV can take a 120hz input. One of the HDMI 1.4 formats for 3D is 2D+Depth, which would be where the TV does the work of making the alternating frames. I suspect the PS3 will support this method as well.

Also, the shutter glasses will be controlled by the TV, not the PS3.

 

[okashira]

3D TVs are 120hz. Again, if they use shutter glasses, they are *at least* 120hz. I also suspect the PS3 will use the "real" HDMI 1.4 3D profile and be the same as other 3D blu-ray players as far as the TV is concerned....

That's not exactly what I was asking... by 120Hz I mean are there any TV's that accept 120Hz input?

The 120Hz 3D TV's can only display frame changes 120 times per second, however the input is actually only still 24/30/60 or 48/60 Hz (2D or 3D) the TV then does the extra work to flicker each frame (in 3D mode) back and forth at 120Hz so the shutter glasses can do their thing.

What I want to know is if there are any 120Hz TV's like we have of 120Hz monitors for Nvidia 3D vision, which actually accept 120Hz input so that the 3D effect can be controlled by software and/or the graphics card instead of the display...thus they are kind of "3D agnostic."

You assertion that the TV will control the glasses makes sense... since the PS3 can in no way know the input lag of a particular TV, it could never accurately control shutter glasses.

 

[niffcreature]

theres only one thing that will really help you here.

http://focus.tij.co.jp/jp/lit/an/scda012a/scda012a.pdf

someone should soon be able to confirm what kind of actual LVDS input 3D screens have. Perhaps it is 32 bit or something.

maybe there are 2 separate lvds inputs.
on that level it could be easy...

 

[sethk]

That's not exactly what I was asking... by 120Hz I mean are there any TV's that accept 120Hz input?

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that the Panasonic plasmas cannot accept 3D encoded as sequential 120hz frames (they use the HDMI side by side modes for 3D). Same with Samsung 3D TVs. I don't remember reading anything about the Sony TVs, one way or the other.

However, Nvidia has said that they will enable 3D on the Panasonic 3D plasmas, probably by enabling side by side HDMI output in their drivers.