30" Quest

[Dan_D]

My quest for a good 30" LCD monitor continues. Price doesn't matter that much for me if I get what I want. Here is what I have so far in this segment:

Apple 30": Old school IPS panel and still expensive, not to mention it says apple on it. No joy.

HP's 30". Same screen as the Apple. Not.

I hear good things about the HP's and the Apple monitors are simply overpriced. They are good monitors though.

Gateway XHD3000: Bought one and returned it. Overall good PVA screen with a ton of features. Poor quality control. Blackout issues and big time input lag when not using native resolution. Next.

Right, I've heard about the input lag being horrid on the Gateway XHD3000. I can feel input lag on some monitors even when others can't. This monitor would be a no go for me even for normal use.

Dell 3007: Model's been around for ages, IPS non-wide color gamut. Although acceptable input lag of around 12ms. Overall though, feel the need for something more contemporary.

12ms is NOT the input lag. There is no input lag on the 3007WFP. The response times are 11ms and 14ms depending on certain variables like grey to grey, grey to black etc. You also forgot about the newer 3007WFP-HC. That monitor has better response times and no input lag. The color gamut is also better than the classic 3007WFP.

Dell 3008. IPS screen, wide color with a ton of inputs. Backlight bleeding problems? This LCD has been out for a while now but I still cannot find any input lag numbers. Maybe someone can help with that. This is a promising screen but I cannot purchase one until they solve the backlight bleed problems and I get some numbers on input lag.

Again you are mistaking input lag for response time.

NEC MultiSync LCD3090WQXi. NEC's new top dog soon to be released. It's specs even top the Dell 3008's. IPS screen with wide color and a bunch of professional features. Obviously input lag numbers don't exist. I just might have to bite the bullet and purchase one and put it through some tests. Hopefully I can find a seller with a liberal return policy.

That sounds like a fantastic monitor, but I haven't heard much about it. Good luck finding a seller with a liberal return policy.

Samsung XL30. Sexy hot LED backlight. PVA screen?? Samsung sure does like their PVA's. Even though it's priced about double all other 30"s at about $4500 and not for sale yet, I'd consider it if the input lag was low. I am just wondering if a PVA screen is really worth that much no matter what backlighting it has.

I won't touch PVA monitors. They are often succeptable to input lag and they have horrid color reproduction and the viewing angles aren't the best.

Here is more information on input lag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag

Again you should not confuse response time and input lag. They are not the same. Monitors like the Dell 3007WFP and 3007WFP-HC have no input lag due to the fact that they have no hardware scaler.

 

[Vega]

I am confusing nothing of the sort. I could generally care less about pixel refresh time when input lag is much more detrimental. The Dell 3007 series does have an approximate input lag of 12ms. This information is not hard to find.

 

[Dan_D]

I am confusing nothing of the sort. I could generally care less about pixel refresh time when input lag is much more detrimental. The Dell 3007 series does have an approximate input lag of 12ms. This information is not hard to find.

The correct wording of the phrase is " I couldn't care less" not "I could care less". The latter means that you could care less than you do and obviously at that point you do care about the subject at hand.

(Sorry this bothers me to no end.)

I've used all kinds of monitors and the input lag of the 3007WFP and 3007WFP-HC isn't anything to be concerned about. I have never noticed it playing games or doing anything else. Yet on some PVA monitors (Dells included) I can feel the input lag even while surfing the web. I'm particularly sensitive to input lag and if the 3007WFP had any lag I could feel I wouldn't be using one.

 

[Yelnats]

All LCD's are going to lag behind CRTs, but the 3007WFP-HC is among the fastest. I don't think you could find a LCD that you could perceive as being faster than the 3007

 

[Dan_D]

All LCD's are going to lag behind CRTs, but the 3007WFP-HC is among the fastest. I don't think you could find a LCD that you could perceive as being faster than the 3007

Agreed. I tried a number of LCD's all the while being said that my CRT failed on me. (I had a very nice CRT.) However once I got the 3007WFP I no longer felt that way. Now I can't see using anything but the 3007WFP or 3007WFP-HC.

 

[Dogmapog]

Who/what are you rolling your eyes at?

 

[Vega]

There is some miss-information put out there about delay and numbers regarding LCD's. There are in fact, a handful of LCD's that display the exact screen timing down to 1/1000'ths of a second compared to a CRT. So indeed, there are LCD's with no input lag. There just aren't any that I'd particularly care to own.

The Dell 3007's series is among the fastest screens with less then one frame of input lag. Although it is slight, it is within the acceptable range for me. The phrasing of "I could care less" really has nothing to do with this post in that A: the Dell 3007 does in fact have a measurable input lag as originally stated and B: I was not confusing pixel refresh and input lag times in my original post.

Now getting back on to topic, I am considering purchasing the new NEC 30” and putting it through its paces. I have read that it may use the exact screen that is in the Dell 3008. Having a true adjustable power setting for the backlight on the NEC really does sound great and would definitely raise the bar over the Dell. If the NEC doesn’t have the back light bleed problem like the Dell, it would be golden.

 

[Johnny78]

What does the OP mean by "old school IPS panel"?

I just bought a HP LP3065 this week because I got a great deal on it. It should be here by the end of the week. Should I not have purchased it? Is it a bad monitor comparatively speaking? Just curious.

 

[Dan_D]

There is some miss-information put out there about delay and numbers regarding LCD's. There are in fact, a handful of LCD's that display the exact screen timing down to 1/1000'ths of a second compared to a CRT. So indeed, there are LCD's with no input lag. There just aren't any that I'd particularly care to own.

Well there is measurable input lag for virtually anything. Again I don't feel that the input lag on the Dell 3007WFP or 3007WFP-HC is worth worrying about or even mentioning.

The Dell 3007's series is among the fastest screens with less then one frame of input lag. Although it is slight, it is within the acceptable range for me. The phrasing of "I could care less" really has nothing to do with this post in that A: the Dell 3007 does in fact have a measurable input lag as originally stated and B: I was not confusing pixel refresh and input lag times in my original post.

Well I had misunderstood your original post. I thought you were confusing the two as you had mentioned the Dell having input lag which is something it isn't known for. Yes it is measurable but negligible.

Now getting back on to topic, I am considering purchasing the new NEC 30” and putting it through its paces. I have read that it may use the exact screen that is in the Dell 3008. Having a true adjustable power setting for the backlight on the NEC really does sound great and would definitely raise the bar over the Dell. If the NEC doesn’t have the back light bleed problem like the Dell, it would be golden.

NEC makes good stuff. I'd love to know more about this NEC 30" but I'll wait for others to make the plunge.

 

[Yelnats]

There is some miss-information put out there about delay and numbers regarding LCD's. There are in fact, a handful of LCD's that display the exact screen timing down to 1/1000'ths of a second compared to a CRT. So indeed, there are LCD's with no input lag. There just aren't any that I'd particularly care to own.

I saw a chart of LCD's input lag, and the lowest was around 4ms. The only way to know for sure is to use a camera that captures at 1000FPS.

Now getting back on to topic, I am considering purchasing the new NEC 30” and putting it through its paces. I have read that it may use the exact screen that is in the Dell 3008. Having a true adjustable power setting for the backlight on the NEC really does sound great and would definitely raise the bar over the Dell. If the NEC doesn’t have the back light bleed problem like the Dell, it would be golden.

The 2490 NEC has ~30ms of lag. I'm hoping the 30" is better.

 

[kleox64]

I saw a chart of LCD's input lag, and the lowest was around 4ms. The only way to know for sure is to use a camera that captures at 1000FPS.



The 2490 NEC has ~30ms of lag. I'm hoping the 30" is better.

it will be identical, the 90 series electronics are still used. It will only differ by a few ms and that will be due to the updated panel.

travbomb has mentioned that 2-3 frames are buffered for processing, LUT's etc...

 

[jbzx86]

I use a 206BW exclusively for gaming and minor movie/show viewing. I don't care to complain about the inadequacies of TN panels as CRT monitors kill my eyes, and my eyes are already bad enough (-4.75 prescription means I cannot see more than 2 feet in front of my face ). I think the perfect 30" would have to be an OLED. Maybe 2010 we'll have flat panel display technology we can write home about.

 

[daveswantek]

I use a 206BW exclusively for gaming and minor movie/show viewing. I don't care to complain about the inadequacies of TN panels as CRT monitors kill my eyes, and my eyes are already bad enough (-4.75 prescription means I cannot see more than 2 feet in front of my face ). I think the perfect 30" would have to be an OLED. Maybe 2010 we'll have flat panel display technology we can write home about.

Wow; I thought I was the only one on here with losy vision. I am not sure what -4.75 prescription means, but my vision is 20/400 before and after correction. Glasses don't help. This makes choosing a display much harder, because when you have to be within a few inches of it viewing angles are more pronounced. I am using a Dell 2407WFP and it is pretty good.

Best of luck to you

Dave

 

[Todd]

I'm also in the market for a 30" but didn't want to start a new thread if answers can be had here. That said, I'm looking for one with the following characteristics:

PIP that allows me to watch HDTV (satellite) while working on the computer at the same time.

Short of contacting each manufacturer it's not easy to determine which can, if any. I know the Cinema Display can't do it.

Anyone have any info?

 

[TheGooch69]

I'm also in the market for a 30" but didn't want to start a new thread if answers can be had here. That said, I'm looking for one with the following characteristics:

PIP that allows me to watch HDTV (satellite) while working on the computer at the same time.

Short of contacting each manufacturer it's not easy to determine which can, if any. I know the Cinema Display can't do it.

Anyone have any info?

The XHD3000 does PIP when displaying via native resolution only. Its quite amazing. I can watch TV, movies, even play PS3 on the PIP while surfing the web (multitasking FTW!). It'll display any other input you have connected. You can adjust the size to as small or as large as you like, put it whever you want on the screen, and it even goes transparent when you move the mouse underneath it.

The XHD3000 has the best picture I have ever seen. Blu Ray movies on it are incredible. Just take into consideration the level of input lag if you plan on PC gaming with it.

Complete side note: I have contacted Gateway and suggested releasing a firmware update or something that will allow users to manually turn off the scaler chip to reduce input lag at non native resolutions. Hopefully they take notice.

Also there is a tweak that another forum member told me about which uses nvidia drivers scaler and not the display and tricks the display to think its running at native when its not. Once I test that out Ill let you know if there is an improvment.

 

[Todd]

Thanks for the info.

What do you mean PIP at native resolution only? I would be watching HDTV (HDMI) at 1080i and using the computer (DVI) at 2560x1600. Is this not possible?

 

[TheGooch69]

Thanks for the info.

What do you mean PIP at native resolution only? I would be watching HDTV (HDMI) at 1080i and using the computer (DVI) at 2560x1600. Is this not possible?

The native resolution is 2560x1600. In order to use PIP while on your computer through DVI, you need to be at that resolution. IF you were to run Windows at 1600x1200 for example, you wouldnt be able to use PIP.

 

[Todd]

I see.

So if I run Leopard at 2560x1600 I can use PIP to watch 1920x1080? If so, which connection do I use for each?

 

[TheGooch69]

I see.

So if I run Leopard at 2560x1600 I can use PIP to watch 1920x1080? If so, which connection do I use for each?

I don't understand your question.

 

[Vega]

I am hoping the new NEC 30" doesn't use their exisiting circuitry that adds a minimum of two frames of lag as like their other models. That would really stink. It might be a while after the unit is released before we can even get input lag numbers for this monitor. People have had the Dell 3008 for a month or two now and still no one has published any input lag numbers.

 

[daveswantek]

I am hoping the new NEC 30" doesn't use their exisiting circuitry that adds a minimum of two frames of lag as like their other models. That would really stink. It might be a while after the unit is released before we can even get input lag numbers for this monitor. People have had the Dell 3008 for a month or two now and still no one has published any input lag numbers.

It looks like everyone is too busy returning their Dells. I am really looking forward to the new 30" NEC, but I am not an avid gamer, so I do not care about input lag. Unless it is as bad as the XHD3000.

If you read the specs for the LCD3090WQXI you will see that they do add extra circuitry for color correction and backlight uniformity, so I really don't think this will be a good display for gaming. It is marketed twords graphics pros and photographers. It is an IPS pannel, so it should perform better then 30" PVAs.

If I was serious about gaming I would go with one of last years 30" LCDs, or a CRT, or a HD TV.

Best of luck

Dave

 

[APOLLO]

If you read the specs for the LCD3090WQXI you will see that they do add extra circuitry for color correction and backlight uniformity, so I really don't think this will be a good display for gaming.

Sounds very compelling, but how can BL uniformity be accomplished without LEDs?

 

[Dan_D]

Sounds very compelling, but how can BL uniformity be accomplished without LEDs?

More florescent tubes I'd guess.

 

[Snowdog]

From what I read, NEC just adjusts the LCD Panel (ie more or less signal to those addresses needing compensation), not the backlight.

 

[Todd]

I don't understand your question.

If I am using the computer (DVI) at 2560x1600 how do I have an HDTV window going at the same time, i.e., which connection, and will it run 1920x1080.

Thanks

 

[APOLLO]

From what I read, NEC just adjusts the LCD Panel (ie more or less signal to those addresses needing compensation), not the backlight.

That it is very interesting and appears complex. This monitors is starting to pique my curiosity more than any other display. Hopefully Yelnats and Vega's concerns won't materialize. Anyone have price projections?

 

[wizziwig]

That it is very interesting and appears complex. This monitors is starting to pique my curiosity more than any other display. Hopefully Yelnats and Vega's concerns won't materialize. Anyone have price projections?

It's called ColorComp and is offered on all xx90 series panels from NEC. Here is how they describe it:

"Achieve complete color and brightness uniformity. By nature, LCD panels and CCFL backlights contain uniformity errors, or mura, which are visible as slightly brighter or darker areas on the screen. To combat this inherent trait, each MultiSync 90 Series display is individually characterized during production using a fully automated
system that measures hundreds of points across the screen at different gray levels. These measurements are used to build a 3-D correction matrix stored inside the display. This data is used to compensate for the uniformity not only as a function of position
on the screen but of gray level as well. In turn, this technology,
called ColorCompTM, reduces the uniformity to virtually unnoticeable
levels and applies a digital correction to each pixel on the screen to compensate for differences in color and luminance."

The downside is that all this color correction adds some lag to the display. I just ordered the 30" version so I hope the lag doesn't get worse on the larger screens because of the additional pixels.

 

[APOLLO]

The downside is that all this color correction adds some lag to the display. I just ordered the 30" version so I hope the lag doesn't get worse on the larger screens because of the additional pixels.

Thanks for the information and I hope you will post a mini review after you receive your display. I would really like to read about you experience.

 

[Snowdog]

With NEC monitors all features are generally switchable. So if you need more speed you can shut off colorcomp.

 

[JockItch43]

Anyone know when the NEC will be available? Is it still just a late Feb estimate?

 

[wizziwig]

Anyone know when the NEC will be available? Is it still just a late Feb estimate?

I just got an update from NEC today:

"Sir, The unit is expected to be in widely available Mid March. "

So looks like another month to go.

 

[JockItch43]

I just got an update from NEC today:

"Sir, The unit is expected to be in widely available Mid March. "

So looks like another month to go.

Interesting.... right after my post, I went to NEC's site and had a web chat session with a customer service rep. When I asked of the estimated release, he stated late February. I'm hoping it comes sooner rather than later. My Mac Pro will likely arrive in less than 2 weeks without a monitor for me to use, so I'm really hoping for that late Feb release.

I also asked if onsale.com is an authorized vendor and he confirmed. I preordered from onsale with a coupon for a very attractive price, but the ratings from this vendor have me a little worried.

 

[Yelnats]

That it is very interesting and appears complex. This monitors is starting to pique my curiosity more than any other display. Hopefully Yelnats and Vega's concerns won't materialize. Anyone have price projections?

Even the 3008WFP has quite a lot of input lag. I don't see the NEC being any better. I guess I'll be getting a 3007WFP-HC.

 

[Vega]

Ya Yelnats, it isn't looking good. The 3008 input lag is even higher then I thought it would be. Well, there goes the wait for me with that LCD. The only other 30" not tested is the new 30" NEC MultiSync LCD3090WQXi. That monitors shipping time keeps getting pushed back. Although knowing NEC and their MultiSync line, I'd put money down that it won't be any faster then 33ms input lag like the rest of their LCD's which is too slow for me. Samsung has their XL30 coming out, but $4600 for a PVA panel just doesn't sit well.

I beleive the only sub/one frame of lag or less larger LCD's that uses an IPS panel are the Dell 3007 HC and the Planar 26". Now I just have to find out which one of those two I will purchase.

Edit: I just remembered about the Prad.de test and them not doing an actual input lag test on the Dell 3008. They subjectively said the screen was very fast and praised it's response time. Now that we do have objective numbers, it turns out the Dell is one of the slowest LCD"s out there. That is why you don't beleive anyone when they say they "feel" something.

 

[daveswantek]

Ya Yelnats, it isn't looking good. The 3008 input lag is even higher then I thought it would be. Well, there goes the wait for me with that LCD. The only other 30" not tested is the new 30" NEC MultiSync LCD3090WQXi. That monitors shipping time keeps getting pushed back. Although knowing NEC and their MultiSync line, I'd put money down that it won't be any faster then 33ms input lag like the rest of their LCD's which is too slow for me. Samsung has their XL30 coming out, but $4600 for a PVA panel just doesn't sit well.

I beleive the only sub/one frame of lag or less larger LCD's that uses an IPS panel are the Dell 3007 HC and the Planar 26". Now I just have to find out which one of those two I will purchase.

Edit: I just remembered about the Prad.de test and them not doing an actual input lag test on the Dell 3008. They subjectively said the screen was very fast and praised it's response time. Now that we do have objective numbers, it turns out the Dell is one of the slowest LCD"s out there. That is why you don't beleive anyone when they say they "feel" something.

You may want to checkout HPs 30 incher. It is an S-IPS pannel with 3 dual link inputs. Some people rate it higher than the Dell 3007WFP-HC.

Best of luck

Dave

 

[Vega]

Hp's 30" is ok, it uses the same panel as Apple's 30" which has been used for many years. Although nothing really get's me revved up about it, I try and stay away from older tech. Although older can still mean better, Ie: newer displays being even laggier with all the bells and whistles they add on.

 

[Wet1]

I just got my new photo editing box put together and see that the 22" TN panel I have connected to it isn't going to make the cut.

I almost pulled the trigger on the 3007 HC from Dell at the end of last month, but decided to wait a couple of days to see if the Feb. "deal" was any better (thinking they would want to clear their inventory since the newer 3008 is out). No dice, the price went up. I'm going to wait until 3/1 to see if they do indeed drop the price, if not I'll go with the new NEC. I just have a hard time justifying spending $2k on a monitor...

 

[APOLLO]

You may want to checkout HPs 30 incher. It is an S-IPS pannel with 3 dual link inputs.

Why 3 inputs? For three different sources? Is there PIP capability?

Hp's 30" is ok, it uses the same panel as Apple's 30" which has been used for many years. Although nothing really get's me revved up about it, I try and stay away from older tech. Although older can still mean better, Ie: newer displays being even laggier with all the bells and whistles they add on.

I have a first gen Apple and generally pleased except for the contrast ratio. It needs a lot of adjustment but once you fine tune the display, it is nice. What bothers me is the constant need for readjustment every time I switch app. I have set up multiple profiles and wondering if all 30" displays are like this or it's just a disadvantage with S-IPS panels. I'm curious if the HP with a glossy screen and more recent panel makes up for some of the Apple's deficiencies?

 

[Yelnats]

I just got my new photo editing box put together and see that the 22" TN panel I have connected to it isn't going to make the cut.

I almost pulled the trigger on the 3007 HC from Dell at the end of last month, but decided to wait a couple of days to see if the Feb. "deal" was any better (thinking they would want to clear their inventory since the newer 3008 is out). No dice, the price went up. I'm going to wait until 3/1 to see if they do indeed drop the price, if not I'll go with the new NEC. I just have a hard time justifying spending $2k on a monitor...

You can try calling Deal Small Business to see if they'll knock down the price for you.

 

[Lance48]

So for gaming, it seems to boil down to Dell 3007WFP-HC or HP LP3065. Does this sound right?

How to pick between the two then?

edit: oh yeah, Samsung 305t?