2405 input lag

Discussion in 'Displays' started by apathypuff, Aug 6, 2005.

  1. apathypuff

    apathypuff n00b

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    After what seems like ages, I finally received the Dell 2405FPW LCD monitor. Short story - it's fantastic. Except for one thing: substantial input lag. It makes games basically impossible to play, from half life 2 to super nintendo. It relates to devices like mice, keyboards, and controllers. It's not, like, seconds of lag. It's about an eigth of a second, I'd say. Maybe a little more.


    From what I've read online (here especially), it's a very common problem. I tried to install the drivers that came with my mouse and update my display drivers. No deal. I tried turning down hardware acceleration and disabling write combing. No dice.



    Does anyone have any advice? I really, really don't want to send this thing back. Really.

    stuff:
    A8N-SLI Deluxe
    AMD 4000+
    CORSAIR XMS 1GB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM
    1x 6600GT (other one burnt out )
    forceware 77.72
     
  2. mathesar

    mathesar [H]ard|Gawd

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    Seems to be related to the LCD itself? .at least when I did my own tests .. I had a 2001FP running next to my 21" CRT (Clone mode / 6800GT) and also noticed *slight* input lag, like when I opened or closed a window you could see the LCD was slightly lagged behind what the CRT was displaying , I didnt think this was a huge deal but then realised when playing fast paced online FPS games this lag could pose a problem..

    I had the LCD connected via DVI and my CRT via VGA, I decided to connect my Sony HDTV (CRT) via the DVI input and could not see any lag when comparing both CRT's together ..This is why I concluded it was the LCD itself :( I ended up sending it back although input lag wasnt the main reason, I couldnt handle the washed out / poor black levels during gaming & movies (This is more a 2001fp specific issue ive seen many people say the 2405fpw has great black levels) I tried getting used to it but my CRT sitting next to it kept reminding me how important good black levels are in a display.

    Anyhow I hope you get your problem sorted out im interested to know if anything can be done as well...

    Also check out this 2405fpw thread on the same issue: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=900484&highlight=samsung+2405+lag
     
  3. apathypuff

    apathypuff n00b

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    Thanks for the input. :) I've seen that other thread and it's yet to resolve any problems, unfortunately

    I got one of those Xbox HD cable things, and although the games are ugly (I don't have any that are720p or greater) it is very cool. Component seems to work very well.

    HOWEVER, there is still the input lag. I tried Outrun 2 and Burnout 3 - both suffered from the lag. This confirms that it's the monitor and not my computer or graphics drivers or any of that. I'm sending it back for a new one...hopefully I'll be as lucky with regards to pixel mortality and backlight uniformity.
     
  4. peacetilence

    peacetilence 2[H]4U

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    I haven't noticed the lag myself, although I haven't tested for it. I haven't noticed any delay in movie files where the sound is out of sync with lip movement. I have noticed my scores in CS:S have dropped dramatically though, I used to pwn and now I never seem to be able to make the first shot, or even then I will aim dead for a persons head and the bullets won't touch them... could be the input lag. Just moving stuff around desktop and making fine mouse movements I don't notice it though. Is there any way I can test aside from hooking up my CRT and comparing them side by side?
     
  5. apathypuff

    apathypuff n00b

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    No idea, mate. It is definitely not a computer-related problem as it's bad with Xbox too.

    At this point I'm unsure whether it's a matter of people's perception or of the display's hardware. I'm thinking the latter, because some people claim it's gaming perfection when for me, it certainly is not.
     
  6. Pyrolistical

    Pyrolistical Gawd

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    What mouse are you using?
     
  7. AndoOKC1

    AndoOKC1 Gawd

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    always enable vsync for starters :)
     
  8. MZ6

    MZ6 n00b

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    Yep, I noticed it a while ago, but I have never said anything. I think it might be DVI related, but your story seems to refute that with the DVI and the CRT. When I used to have 19" lcds, I always used the DB15 (analog) cable because it always felt smoother and more reactive. The DVI was a smidget sharper, but it was not worth the lag.

    Unfortunately, the analog cable doesn't work well with the 2405FPW, much too high of a resolution to be even worth trying. It might just be the monitor itself. Anyways, my Dell 2405FPW sits unused next to my 22" Diamondtron because of this lag.
     
  9. Yonzie

    Yonzie Limp Gawd

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    There was some speculation as to the culprit being Dells implementation of overdrive.
    The idea was that for overdrive to work it needs information on what is happening on the next frame. Therefore it needs to buffer at least one full frame, thereby delaying the image a little bit.
     
  10. Dapperdan

    Dapperdan [H]ardness Supreme

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    update your drivers from 77.72 to 77.76 or 77.77 that helped me
     
  11. apathypuff

    apathypuff n00b

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    I'm using an MX1000. But the fact that the Xbox controller lags the same negates your reasoning. I tried unplugging the USB hub and uninstalling drivers, as someone suggested, but still nothing. :(

    I found a thread right on Dell's very boards. However, it's poorly moderated and how ever would Dell admit culpability? Bump the hell out of this if you want, MZ6
    http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=dim_monitor&message.id=47632
     
  12. peacetilence

    peacetilence 2[H]4U

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    Is the lag apparent making mouse movements across the desktop or for example moving windows around? It apprears instantanious with me. What vid card are you using? The differnce of resolution on a CRT vs a 24" lcd is probably dramatic and could cause the lag on certain video cards maybe. Then again perhaps I'm just not noticing it.
     
  13. apathypuff

    apathypuff n00b

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    Both. It appears instantaneous, but in feel, it is not. There's maybe a tenth of a second between pressing and seeing. Anything with keys - keyboard, mouse (buttons, cursor), xbox controller.

    I'm using a 6600GT with an MX1000. I appreciate the help so far...please keep it coming!
     
  14. MZ6

    MZ6 n00b

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    Well I don't notice it on the desktop, however, I do notice it in FPS games. I play mostly counterstrike and I use a real low mouse sensitivity (using a MX518 mouse or the 20 other mice that I have). Turning 90 degrees left and then 90 degrees right I notice the screen doesn't react quick. It seems like you are "pulling" the screen along. When you transition from left to right or right to left, it feels that the screen "slips" behind. This is with the newest WHQL Nvidia drivers on a BFG 6800GT OC.

    It's not the difference of resolutions between the 22" Diamondtron and 24" Dell. The Diamondtron can go at a higher resolution than the Dell can handle. Personally, I thought it is due to the huge amount of data transfer that the DVI cable has to transmit. The Diamondtron doesn't have DVI to compare. But then again, if it was this problem, it shouldn't happen on the XBox.

    All I know is that the Hyundai L90D+, Viewsonic 191B-2, Dell 2005FPW and Dell 2001FP, I had didn't have this problem to this extent. At least, I don't remember them to having this problem. However, as I mentioned before, I used the two 19" monitors with the analog calbe between it looked and felt much smoother.

    I do recall someone posted here at the Hardforums screenshots of the weird lag the 2405FPW had over his older Samsung 24" LCD with pics from UT2004. Even though the poster said the Dell had less blur, it showed lag on his screenshots.
     
  15. Pyrolistical

    Pyrolistical Gawd

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    It seems to be have been disproven in the past, but why does it seem like everybody who has this issue is using a MX1000?
     
  16. spiroh

    spiroh Limp Gawd

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    Are you sure what you are experiencing is not screen tearing? That's what I experience and have to turn on vsync. I really want to keep this monitor but this screen tearing during gaming is giving me second thoughts.
     
  17. Granimyr

    Granimyr n00b

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    I have the same problem with my 2405fpw as well. At first I had my MX1000 hooked up to it and could see lag on the desktop that was very annoying. I had to pull out my old intellimouse and it went away completely on the desktop, however there is still some lag and some screen tearing in Half Life 2 although the lag was significantly less with the intellimouse when I ran one setting below it's native resolution. The lag went away completely when I change the resolution setting back it's native resolution. The problem with that is my card didn't look like it was running a high framerate when I changed it to it's native res, so my guess is that if you are playing a high pace game (fps) you will need a serious card to push high framerates at this monitors native res.

    I'm not sure how other games would fair in terms of the input lag but then again I don't play that many fps's at all either (half life 2 is the only I have owned in the last 5 years). What I find strange is that this lag seems to be only with input devices, I have eyeballed video really hard and don't see any delay between the picture and the voice.

    I'm not sure, but I'm guess the accuracy of the mx1000 makes it very noticable, or either the drivers that comes with the mouse are crap.

    Anyway, the steps I took to make the lag go away are as follows:
    1. Changed my mouse to intellimouse and changed the setting on the mouse to read 200 times a second (dunno if that helps since it is an optical mouse)
    2. Got "certified" drivers for my video card off of nvidia's website (I'm running a quadro fx 1100 video card by the way)
    3. Run the game at it's native res.
     
  18. apathypuff

    apathypuff n00b

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    I'll definitely give the mouse thing a try. However, how would this account for the lag while playing Xbox?
     
  19. Granimyr

    Granimyr n00b

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    Unfortunately, I don't have an xbox to test this. I do remember reading a while back that the xbox natively outputs at 480p which is significantly less than the monitors native res. If that theory is correct, that will explain the delay because the monitor has to scale the picture to it's native res of 1920 x 1200 (which the closest to that is 1080p, which xbox doesn't support).

    Again, this is all speculation that I can't test since for one the xbox doesn't support 1080p resolution and I don't have an xbox. I might be way off base here, but that is the only thing I can think of that would explain it. LCD has always done a horrible job with scaling resolutions , so if your source is not as close to the native resolution as possible it makes sense that there is delay due to processing the scaling algorithms. Other flat panel technologies seem to do really well wth scaling such as plasma but LCD has some way to go before it will get there.
     
  20. mathesar

    mathesar [H]ard|Gawd

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    Thats a good point ...99% of Xbox games only support 480P wich is 720x480 resolution. Xbox looked awful on my 2001FP ,You could totaly tell the image was being scaled and the motion blur was a lot more apparent ,but the 2001FP doesnt have Component inputs so I had to use Svideo.
     
  21. apathypuff

    apathypuff n00b

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  22. francis_a

    francis_a n00b

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    I will be receiving my 2405fpw sometime this week so doing a lot of reading about possible issues.

    On the Input Lag, a friend who has the 2405 claims that he doesn't see any input lag playing FIA GTR Racing, but not until he actually installed the monitor drivers supplied by Dell.

    According to him, if Windows uses the Default Monitor driver, the 2405 may not behave properly and exhibit input lag. He did notice the lag before but not anymore when he installed Dell's monitor drivers.

    I have yet to find this out myself sometime this week and will give an update. I'm not a FPS gamer, more of a Racing sim gamer so maybe the lag will be less noticeable.
     
  23. apathypuff

    apathypuff n00b

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    Eh, I've tried all manners of driver but to no avail. I guess it's something to live with.

    Do post when you get yours, though. :)
     
  24. The Real Zardoz

    The Real Zardoz [H]Lite

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    More and more people coming out of the woodwork...

    .. it's an awful shame to abandon such a great display. But this sucker is going back in its box tomorrow. The LG looks like a contender as it doesn't use the gm1601 and offers better brightness (not *higher*, but brightness not requring me to gamma correct my graphic card) and better viewing angles. Hopefully I can get one on eval through work to determine whether it, too, has input lag issues associated with it.

    I hope we get this issue resolved because I'd love to order another one of these.
     
  25. Kevlarman

    Kevlarman [H]ard|Gawd

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    I've noticed lag on my 2405FPW also, but only if I place a CRT monitor right besides it, and clone the display.

    I still kick ass in BF2 :D and hooking up my PS2 via component input to play GT4 is smooth as butter.

    I'm using the Dell drivers that came on the CD, BTW.

    Has anyone spoken to Dell directly about this issue?
     
  26. kleox64

    kleox64 [H]ard|Gawd

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    you cant do that, depending of the configuration there is always a delay when using the clone feature (CRT OR LCD, LCD AND LCD, CRT AND CRT) using the nvidia drivers.
     
  27. bchomp

    bchomp n00b

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    There have been a lot of threads on this if you search for it. I noticed it as soon as I played Quake 3 with it back in March. Somebody posted a little flash app that lets you easily determine the lag relative to a cloned CRT display. I measured it to be in the 30-60ms range.

    I haven't tried the latest NVidia drivers, but it sure shows up with 77.something drivers and my MX500 mouse.

    That delay issue with the drivers is VERY new to me. Nevertheless, I noticed the lag well before I was running dual heads.
     
  28. apathypuff

    apathypuff n00b

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  29. Kevlarman

    Kevlarman [H]ard|Gawd

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    Really? I did not know that!

    I guess then without anything to compare the LCD against, I don't have any lag.
    Scores in my FPS gaming have remained the same, and games with fast action (such as Flight Simulator or GT4, etc) don't bother me at all (I'm not crashing into trees or buildings).

    There has to be a foolproof test that we can use that doesn't involve cloning another display.
     
  30. mathesar

    mathesar [H]ard|Gawd

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    All I know is when I cloned my CRT and LCD only the LCD side showed a slight delay, but when I cloned two CRT's(21" Sony via VGA and a 32" Sony HDTV via DVI) I noticed no lag between the two displays,using a 6800 GT videocard. So in my case the LCD itself was causing the delay, Unless im missing something.
     
  31. kleox64

    kleox64 [H]ard|Gawd

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    it occurs more with LCD's remember CRT's also have much faster response times.

    Put it this way at work I setup a dual head system using dell 19's, when turning on the system one monitor is always behind the other using either ports. The slave screen is the one always behind. Guys try it, even with different LCD's with the clone mode.
     
  32. gustep12

    gustep12 n00b

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    Here is my comparison: A digital photograph of two screens running on the same graphics card in clone mode:

    http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=900484&page=1&pp=20

    Varying signal latency can be due to slower DSPs on some LCDs - I think the 2405fwp simply has a slower DSP than it should.

    It makes sense that the signal processing load (and hence signal latency) can be reduced by going to native resolution - now the DPS doesn't need to do the interpolation & smoothing anymore. On a CRT, this happens simply due to the beam / shadow mask design, but on an LCD you need to compute it all.

    Similarly, it might make sense that a VGA input signal requires less processing than the DVI signal and hence is faster, but the reverse might also be true. It all depends on how the various signal pathways compare on a given LCD screen.

    Lastly, mouse and graphics drivers might reduce the signal latency on the host PC, especially if you had poor drivers before that caused additional delays in the whole signal chain Mouse-->Mouse driver--> Host PC CPU-->Video card driver-->Video card processor-->DVI receiver chip-->Scaling DSP-->Pixel.

    I think it is time we started paying more attention to signal latencies everywhere, in our drivers and in our hardware. In audio applications, low latency drivers already are an advertised high-end feature: ASIO drivers claim less than 2ms latency, compared to probably 100ms for some standard audio drivers:

    http://www.soundblaster.com/resources/read.asp?articleid=53937&cat=2
    http://www.asio2ks.de/

    So, WE DEMAND SIGNAL LATENCY SPECIFICATIONS on everything from now on - drivers, monitors (VGA and DVI inputs separately), graphics cards... etc.
     
  33. Xeero

    Xeero Gawd

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    even if the lag is there, it shouldn't affect your gaming performance. its not certainly not affecting mine. but then again, i don't play cs source or ut2k4 that often. however, i will note that i get no input lag whatsoever playing console games, so i'm not sure what kind of issue it is. also, a fast fps is more dependant on player skill than small lag.
     
  34. kleox64

    kleox64 [H]ard|Gawd

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    VGA is slower compared to DVI as the signal has to be converted twice (ADC-->DAC)when connected to the LCD. As for the DSP I dont think its the issue as they are basically reference designs that are recommended for the specific panel.
     
  35. goldenpp72

    goldenpp72 n00b

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    Hello everyone. I'm new here and found this forum in my search to fix the very problem I am having with my monitor (dell 2405fpw)

    Anyways, after messing around with it for about 6 hours today, I almost gave up, however, I accidently 'overshot' the HZ in my video card and rendered my dell fpw useless, so I hooked up my old crt and uninstalled all the drivers, reinstalled them, hooked up my dell via DVI port so I could use dual (non cloning) screens, making the dell the 'primary'.

    Now, I only did this in order to get my screen working at all again, however, when I booted up my games again (pc games) they all worked with no lag! I then disabled the crt monitor and moved it back and the lag in my pc games is still gone, as of now its hooked up to a dvi port (not at max res as my card isn't powerful enough for max res DVI) and its working pretty well.

    Of course, this doesn't solve my main issue, which is playing my video game consoles on the thing, I don't beleive xbox 360 supports DVI and thats the only console I planned to use on this. If anyone has suggestions or input, please, give me a buzz!
     
  36. Spetsnaz Op

    Spetsnaz Op 2[H]4U

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    maybe you should enable vsync? that might help

    otherwise maybe that is just how it performs?

    edit: Did I read right? People got 800 dollar+ tft's and hooked them up via the 15 pin D connector? DVI guys! Hooking it up via VGA will only make the colors worse on these panels.
     
  37. goldenpp72

    goldenpp72 n00b

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    Is there a V sync option on the monitor itself?
     
  38. kleox64

    kleox64 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Iam assuming your joking, anything higher than 1280x1024 must be run in DVI as the image quality go's downhill very quickly.
     
  39. SaguratuS

    SaguratuS n00b

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    It should be noted that this is a DRIVER issue, not a hardware one. I had to boot under windows temporarly to try out Visual Studio 2005, and I couldn't believe the extreme latency of the mouse. Under linux, this problem does not exist at all. I'll see if I can dig up a dvi -> dsub connector somewhere and see if this is a dvi related issue.
     
  40. aggressor

    aggressor Limp Gawd

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