24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.

Whoa.


Okay.

The brighter whites and radiant colors of 9300K are nice, and a few people might want to pump their gain all the way up, but that's not the most natural image and shouldn't be sold as such. sRGB isn't the be all end all setting, but I would recommend 6500K adjusted to taste over 9300K to anyone.

Seems like you are not ready to hit the nail on your head yet. Of course, that is what sRGB is for. "Adjusted to taste", no thanks! Heck, you can adjust clear and sharp fecal matter to taste, and taste all the bits of corn in it. "Radiant", your word (definitely true). "Natural"... hmmm, it depends on the source--I'll explain more later. It's not just 6500K or 9300K. When did I say it was 9300K?
____

It's all subject to debate, but designers generally agree on 6500K for color accuracy and maximum detail, things that games and general usage benefit from just the same. They aren't doing it for no reason. One practical way to witness the negative effects of 9300K is to take a high quality image of a beach or desert, something with sand and grain, and watch as the grains become diluted, some even disappearing from the image. You can either take that as a few grains lost or as a factor affecting the overall image fidelity. In my opinion, 9300K is a surfeit of color and gamma. Of course, that's why people enjoy it. The white levels are nice, if not bluish. 6500K is warmer and more natural however. Balanced properly, the perception of tanned greys will be temporary. Blacks will be a little darker, but so will whites. You can compensate to get the red out of the whites. This is what I consider neutral color temperature.

Regardless of what profiles you prefer, I think maxing out your bias or gain is a bad idea. I would rather try to keep bias around 50 and increase gains for balancing purposes only.

Compensating to get the red out by doing what? After all, doesn't this just make the picture lose detail--thus removing the purpose of sRGB or 6500K? Nothing comes close to the 100 Color Rendering Index of sunlight, the most pure and true-life color, even if sunlight itself is supposedly 5500K (should we quit using the Kelvin scale and start using CCT?). Even those fluorescent 6500K bulbs in LCD panels with mercury energy spikes suck compared to white LED's that should soon replace the bulb technology. If you max out everything (both the Gains and the Biases), you'll notice that this Sony GDM-FW900 can emit the brightest, purest whites of all CRT monitors that any of us has ever seen. However, there would be far too much red and also too much blue in the lesser shades (strong reddish-purplish greys). That's why I have to reduce the bias. By the way, when I power it on, it appears rather greenish/brownish for the first 10-15 minutes, eventually returning to normal after warming up.

We are not all designers or professional image editors (you might be one who enjoys looking at sephia negatives as a gimmick or at red-enhanced pictures for eye-capturing detail). When I play games, I enjoy real-life visuals that match what I am seeing out there in the real world as closely as possible without any compensations or adjustments to my taste. Many more of us are gamers than professionalists and we want to enjoy the visuals for the beauty of it.

True, the red shade makes it easier for our eyes to perceive the fine details. On those dim monitors, of course sRGB was the gamut of choice especially back then in the 90's (let's not forget that super reddish Mac standard preset with gamma being 1.8 instead of 2.2, still used nowadays!).

I think that it can depend pretty much on the source of the image itself. If looking at pictures--did that picture come from indoors or from outdoors? Usually, the indoors are lighted by a much lower color temperature (horrible CRI or color fidelity) whereas most of the outdoor pictures are much more natural. So it would make sense to view the outdoor pictures with bright green and blue gains in addition to reasonable red in order to emulate the bright, full color sunshine! The color temperature of average summer shade is rather blue--about 8000K (my monitor whiteness is lower than that--around 7000-7500K, which is much lower than bluish 9300K). Midday skylight (no direct sun) can range from 9000K to a super-blue 35000K---making us look pale blue, dead perhaps? For enjoyment purposes, I would rather emulate those bright pictures by making them as believable as possible--i would actually squint my eyes and be fooled thinking that it was real sunlight when I was only looking at the picture on the screen. Duh, the sun is that bright in real life! sRGB cannot do that, hardly. Boring! Do you wanna stay in a darkroom with a red bulb in the ceiling or get out in the sun? Yeah, we love those "soft-white" 2800K light bulbs, it's dim and easy on our eyes as we roam the house at night or as we watch the TV in dim surroundings--candlelight anybody?

Sometimes, some of us it bright, and I mean bright like broad daylight! I was just providing them a way to do it without using WinDAS and tweaking maximum contrast.

With my settings, some things might be a bit too green at first but I think it's easier getting used to than with too much red. Nevertheless, a picture of the swimming pool water on the screen will look so real that you want to jump in it.

Perhaps we should invent a "dynamic" monitor that can somehow detect the settings of the images and compensate for them by internally changing the temperature. It could be done with LED's! Latest games use HDR (High Dynamic Rendering or Range??) You probably know that some indoor pictures look horrible even with default green/blue tints and they have to be turned down even more but the source of the picture itself is to blame--blame the camera?

On this montior, playing dark games at default settings just makes the greys either too "colored" with tints or just plain too dark. Most noobs would just turn up the gamma but lose the full range of colors and endure washed-out color banding. Most of us want to enjoy the monitor, leisurely. We want to appreciate the graphics--heck, those colors sure are important! Nobody wants dirty, ugly colors. You probably do not know what I am talking about because you're "used" to your monitor--so was I. I was used to monitors from the 80's in that time period, for that matter.

1 more thing--when using Nvidia's drivers, make sure digital vibrance is turned off--the colors are already vibrant enough--no need for artifical stimulation by Nvidia's drivers!!! Gamers, enjoy the brightest, most vibrant colors, and thank me later! It seems that LCD's nowadays are becoming brighter than CRT's (finally) but this FW900 can still keep up with my Dell 24" LCD when this overly bright LCD is turned to around 20-30% brightness.

____

Ghosting? I don't think so Bo. Not on a healthy FW900. Severe blooming? Maybe after years of 100% contrast. I'd call it mild at best. It might be worsened with your settings.

All CRT montiors display blooming, unlike those current LCD montiors. Even the newest Sony CRT WEGA TV's display horrible BLOOMING at default settings without increasing brightness or contrast. Please, let's not open a can-of-worms debate on this. Well, when I use my FW900 at default brightness/6500K color settings, the ghosting and blooming is greatly reduced of course, but still there nonetheless (ghosting is not as noticeable). Do I want a stock Corvette at stock settings that can do 20 miles per gallon or preferably a 1200 HP modded Corvette that only does 5 miles per gallon-- it's a tradeoff!
_____
You can't compare LCD refresh rates directly to CRT's.

Hopefully, you're not trying to be too vain here. I never compared it directly--in my other thread on my Dell 2405FPW, there were all kinds of noobs saying the same thing. Of course, the refresh rate is somewhat different on LCD's (I will not even attempt to explain), but yet fundamentally the same. I think you're smart enough to really think this out and understand why it's a good thing to have 120Hz on LCD monitors. Of course, if you're not a serious gamer, there would be little incentive for you to ponder such. Any questions? I can answer more next time.
_____

All that really matters.

All of this is just my opinion.

After a boxing match, one might want to hug each other or do a handshake (usually, one emerges a victor and the other a loser but rarely do both get a tie without losing). :)
 
Lots of praise for this thing, still.

I have to question how discerning, keen, and aware many of these people are. I have a strong feeling most of these people don't even realize their CRTs are withering with age.

My HP version from an online retailer has never had perfect focus and has drifted over the 6 months I've had it.
I believe no monitor has ever had perfect focus and you're right LCD's are better for most. But there is one thing no lcd can do and that is gaming. I simply can't stand 60hz. I can't believe people play with those, it looks awful. And when the game is hectic enough, you lose. My eyes tell the difference between 85 and 100hz in Counter-Strike Source, not to mention some actually fast games where it even matters.

I compared this to a BenQ 20" wide LCD and found that the LCD actaully had no input lag or delays and it would be perfect for gaming. It always displayed the same 1/1000th of a second when I took a picture. But it is 60hz and it feels like you're running 60fps.

If you bought one for web browsing, you should be disappointed if you compare it to a 1000$ lcd capable of same resolutions. But these are not always so expensive, sometimes you can find ones for free, even literally.

You can't compare LCD refresh rates directly to CRT's.
I've got to comment and ask on this: Do you mean flickering or what? Funny thing is, that CRT at 60Hz looks pretty decent in gaming, but any LCD looks pretty bad. I don't mean flickering, I can stand flickering, it's no problem. But what I've understood the LCD displays only 60 images per second maximum because of 60hz. Now if and when in shooters mouse is moved view does not turn smoothly. On crt's even at 60hz it is less visible.
 
The only way to properly calibrate your monitor's RGB gain settings is to use a colorimeter like the Gretag-Macbeth Eye-One Display 2. It is impossible to do it by eye alone.
 
For the ability to easily change resolutions and refresh rates on the fly for pc, as I am currently on integrated graphics and have to scale down different games to different resolutions vs the 360 which well stay at either 720p or 1080p depending on how well it works. Might as well use the nice 2 input capability the monitor has.

Actually once you install the FW900 driver you wont have to manually set resolutions & refresh rates when using BNC, The only minor negative ive noticed with BNC is for some reason when you right click on an .AVI or other video file it sometimes causes the screen to lose its vertical hold for a split second. I have my PC on BNC and 360 on VGA.
 
Hmm... That could actually be a bit annoying since I watch a lot of avi's and video files on the screen , and it would suck to have this happen every time i switch episodes.. Since you have a 360 and a bnc cable , do you mind testing if 360 works via BNC for 720p and 1080p?

Thanks
 
Hmm... That could actually be a bit annoying since I watch a lot of avi's and video files on the screen , and it would suck to have this happen every time i switch episodes.. Since you have a 360 and a bnc cable , do you mind testing if 360 works via BNC for 720p and 1080p?

Thanks

Good news it works fine and looks great , I don't see any loss in quality (or improvement) over a straight VGA connection, I tried it at 1080p and 720p and it worked on both, 1080p still has slight over scan issues so I'd just stick with 720p. I used the mini gender changer than comes with the official 360 VGA cable to connect both cables together.

360 VGA to BNC connection:
vga_bnc.jpg


VGA to BNC @ 720p:
360_BNC_720p.jpg
 
Good news it works fine and looks great , I don't see any loss in quality (or improvement) over a straight VGA connection, I tried it at 1080p and 720p and it worked on both, 1080p still has slight over scan issues so I'd just stick with 720p. I used the mini gender changer than comes with the official 360 VGA cable to connect both cables together.

Fantastic, Thanks a lot mathesar . I will start looking at monoprice to get a good quality Vga to BNC cable and a good VGA cable as well to replace the one that came with the monitor. I thought that the last update fixed the 1080p vga issues though , maybe tomorrows update will fix it .
 
The only way to properly calibrate your monitor's RGB gain settings is to use a colorimeter like the Gretag-Macbeth Eye-One Display 2. It is impossible to do it by eye alone.

If you are a professionalist (graphics designer or photo editor or anything serious), go and get a colorimeter by all means. I think there are better ones than this Eye-One Macbeth but that depends on the differing reviews and opinions. We all know that we should never use a monitor at its default settings (even sRGB) for serious work.

For me, I trust my eyes well enough--i've already had my Dell 2405FPW professionally calibrated (at the disadvantage of having slightly tanned greys) and then I calibrated my FW900 visually right next to my 24" Dell so that both images looked exactly the same but with perfect greys and zero viewing angle problems that distort the gamma on the edges of the wide screen. When looking at printed pictures, they also look virtually identical with what's on the screen. Yet, with far greater brightness that comes to life, we find it much more enjoyable looking at the screen instead of the prints!

A human eye is amazing in its ability to detect even the slightest color shades in darker grey variants. For example, our eyes can tell the difference between neutral grey, one with 2% yellow hue added, and one with 2% blue hue added. Unfortunately, our eyes adjust after a short period of time so we have to keep on looking at the reference image and "reset" our visual cortex.
 
You could also try these settings:

Go to color settings on your monitor display settings:

In EXPERT tab, adjust all the blue, green, and red Gains up to 100 and also adjust:

R Bias: 77
G Bias: 100
B Bias: 90

The brightness of the monitor should be anywhere between 29 and 55 depending on your monitor's condition (whether it is in GOOD condition or in corrupted-display condition) (and your preference on the black level and gamma). If you REALLY want the absolute blackest blacks, then you'll have to turn down the brightness all the way to 29. With other light sources in the room, you would need to turn up the brightness anyway because they do really affect CRT monitors.

Also, without WinDAS, you might have to turn up the contrast up to like 90 or 100. After increasing the contrast range using WinDAS, I only need to turn up the contast to 50 or else things would get a bit blurry due to too much brightness for the CRT monitor to handle while maintaining full sharpness. For games, I turn it up to 70-80 anyways because sharpness is not as important as when I am reading web pages or small fonts at 2048x1280 resolution with white background (most web pages have white background unlike HardOCP).

Just trying to help you guys if you dont feel like going through the trouble of getting WinDAS but would like maximum contrast (which is really brightness) on this monitor.


P.S.-- Brightness is really the black level (or gamma), Contrast is really brightness, and Gamma is really contrast. Those are more accurate definitions.
 
Hi all, I've been having a problem with this monitor, and figured this'd be the best place to ask about it.

I've had my FW900 for about a year, and it's been great - but recently I've been experiencing some color flickering. What will happen is that I'll turn on the monitor and everything will look perfect, and then after X amount of time the color will start to flicker between normal and a red-ish purple tint, and then it seems to stay with the red-ish purple tint, flickering back to normal every so often randomly.

When I first started seeing this, I used the image restoration, and adjusted the focus a bit. Neither seemed to improve things, and the problem seems to have grown steadily worse until now - it's been really bad the past two days. I've tried adjusting the frequency and resolution, but neither of those things seems to have any noticeable effect.

Any help would be greatly appreciated - I'd hate to have to junk this monitor. Thanks in advance!
 
Nicepants have you checked the cable? What you described sounds exactly like a broken VGA-cable. I certainly wish you have not ;)
 
Dude. that makes me want to hook the 360 up to my FW900... damn...

I was playing games on my VX922... 19" LCD... but that looks insane for a 360 :)
 
Nicepants have you checked the cable? What you described sounds exactly like a broken VGA-cable. I certainly wish you have not ;)

I have not checked the cable - I will do that as soon as I get home today - I think I even have a spare one lying around. Thank you very, very much, novemberrain - I am glad that this problem sounds like something that might be easily remedied.
 
dude...read 3 posts above this one...
whoops, my bad. anyway, you guys got me sold on this monitor and i will be buying one withing a week. i really want widescreen but i don't wanna commit to 1920x1200 only with an LCD (can't be buying a different video card every 6 months, and really miss the FPS smoothness of crt). Guess the 19'' hyundai lcd will be do fine for browsing and other text-based stuff, and they fw900 will kick ass at games.
 
Nicepants have you checked the cable? What you described sounds exactly like a broken VGA-cable. I certainly wish you have not ;)

Looks like you were right! I swapped out the VGA cable and so far everything looks crystal clear and beautiful like it should. Thanks load, novemberrain!
 
Looks like you were right! I swapped out the VGA cable and so far everything looks crystal clear and beautiful like it should. Thanks load, novemberrain!


Glad to hear you didn't have to throw that beautiful monitor out! One more life saved...
 
i found a used one for 300 shipped, says that screen is in perfect condition. i'm about to pull the trigger...
 
i found a used one for 300 shipped, says that screen is in perfect condition. i'm about to pull the trigger...
You have been warned... For browsing and so on, an LCD is better, even superior, depending on the sharpness. But gaming... Just awesome. I have started playing CSS again because it looks so good :p And many other games too. But you'll never get a 1920x1200 lcd for that price though. I must say that at low refresh rates mine has better image than any LCD, but on high it goes a bit blurry, I think I'm going to try a BNC cable. Also note than if you use high res, set windows font to 120% and use some other font, like the colibri or so. Also cleartype does make it look better, even on crt.

Glad to hear it was the cable, Nicepants. Usually the first thing to look into is the cable, especially if colours go red/green/bluish, another monitor saved.
 
You have been warned... For browsing and so on, an LCD is better, even superior, depending on the sharpness. But gaming... Just awesome. I have started playing CSS again because it looks so good :p And many other games too. But you'll never get a 1920x1200 lcd for that price though. I must say that at low refresh rates mine has better image than any LCD, but on high it goes a bit blurry, I think I'm going to try a BNC cable. Also note than if you use high res, set windows font to 120% and use some other font, like the colibri or so. Also cleartype does make it look better, even on crt.

Glad to hear it was the cable, Nicepants. Usually the first thing to look into is the cable, especially if colours go red/green/bluish, another monitor saved.

You can always lower the resolution to get sharper text. 1920 across is really pushing an FW900, as its using almost every physical aperature stripe and thus does not allow for errors between the gun and the phosphers. Always ran mine at 1600 by 1024 to get sharper text. (Admittedly, this is because LCD's have raised expectations with regard to text.)
 
As an eBay Associate, HardForum may earn from qualifying purchases.
Good stuff! Today's Xbox360 dash update added a "Reference Level" option for the VGA output, The "Expanded" mode boosts overall color and contrast output which definitely improved image quality on the FW900 :)

360_VGA_Settings.jpg
 
Yeah I noticed it too.... everything looks much better. Just be sure to re-adjust (increase) your brightness otherwise you won't notice much difference
 
Is FW900 still leading best for gaming as higher fps and fast response than any flat screen? FW900 is old but may still be best monitor?
 
Is FW900 still leading best for gaming as higher fps and fast response than any flat screen? FW900 is old but may still be best monitor?

A monitor doesn't increase your FPS. That's what your graphics card job is. However with LCDs, they have natives resolutions where that's the ideal resolution to display games at. Higher you go with resolutions, the more it will affect your FPS.

As for Flat Screens yeah FW900 is the best, I'd say. But keep in mind Flat Screen != LCD. Unless you are lax about your definitions :p

But anyhow the Fw900 is indeed old, and if you find one, its old. So it's taking a risk on the longevity, and reliablity. With LCDs, obviously you can get brand new ones, and have them still be under warranty for quite a while.

I myself purchased an FW900 a few months back, and within a month it started turning off randomly, or everytime I turned it on. Screen looks great when it's on though, but now it's just sitting in the corner of my room taking up space =( So be aware.

I haven't heard of anyone else in this thread having the problem I have had though.
 
my HP badged fw900 should ship monday, cant wait for CS:S 1920x1200 @ 9x hz (hopefully).
You probably want to use 1920x1080@100hz. You get higher fov (16:10 vs 16:9), it still looks good and is not stretched.

A monitor doesn't increase your FPS. That's what your graphics card job is.
Any LCD is unable to display FPS above 60/50 fps. While CRT's 75, 85, 95, 100 whatever, may not sound much better the difference in smoothness is huge. Some people does not get bothered by it and they should get an LCD. However, I swear I'll never buy an LCD for gaming until they run at least at 100Hz.
I myself purchased an FW900 a few months back, and within a month it started turning off randomly, or everytime I turned it on. Screen looks great when it's on though, but now it's just sitting in the corner of my room taking up space =( So be aware.
Overbrightness? Self protection tunring it off maybe? Use black background and use lower brigthness? Mine had the same problem but I still bought it. I use this in dark room and have alway used dark colours and haven't had the same problem
 
You probably want to use 1920x1080@100hz. You get higher fov (16:10 vs 16:9), it still looks good and is not stretched.

Any LCD is unable to display FPS above 60/50 fps. While CRT's 75, 85, 95, 100 whatever, may not sound much better the difference in smoothness is huge. Some people does not get bothered by it and they should get an LCD. However, I swear I'll never buy an LCD for gaming until they run at least at 100Hz.
Overbrightness? Self protection tunring it off maybe? Use black background and use lower brigthness? Mine had the same problem but I still bought it. I use this in dark room and have alway used dark colours and haven't had the same problem


Well monitors still don't increase fps :p But is there a site explaining why LCDs can't display over 60fps? I do know that refresh rates don't apply to LCDs, but not much than that I could be wrong.


Thanks for the suggestions on my fw900, indeed I tried to mess with the brightness, but it didn't help or so it seemed. I never fooled around with the WinDAS approach either. How does the self protection work? Does that when it's too bright or something? I'm always open to new suggestions, because as I said, the screen is in perfect shape no scratches etc. I want to use this puppy again =(

I also tested it on my 360 and my PC. Does the same thing.
 
You probably want to use 1920x1080@100hz. You get higher fov (16:10 vs 16:9), it still looks good and is not stretched.
damn, this thing does 1080p @ 100hz? good point about the fov btw, i wonder if my 800dpi mouse will cut it.

edit: that should be perfect with 100 tickrate servers and "fps_max 101", can't wait. too bad mouseware 9.80 won't work in vista, can't get 800dpi on my mx510 unless i go back to XP, grrrr...
 
HOLY CRAP THAT IS A BIG CRT!!! I have an old 24" CRT I got a garage sale for $10 and though it didn't support a spectacular resolution (1280x1024 if I remember) I deffinatly feel for you with how much they weigh...
 
My FW900 shipped monday via FedEx ground. ETA is May 21st and the package is 130 lbs good lord. When I get it set up I will post results and pictures.
 
I might snag another Fw900 locally for $100

The guy posted "Huge 24" Sony CRT monitor"

There's only 2 things it could be :)

Hopefully it's the one I'm looking for...
 
you might be one who enjoys looking at sephia negatives as a gimmick

Indeed. A gimmick.

When I play games, I enjoy real-life visuals that match what I am seeing out there in the real world as closely as possible without any compensations or adjustments to my taste. Many more of us are gamers than professionalists and we want to enjoy the visuals for the beauty of it.

And I'm not? And I don't?
 
i have a 19'' lcd for text based stuff, this monster is gonna be for games and video.

edit: do you guys feel the need for AA when running 1920x1200? its been a while since i've used a crt, i forgot what the look like at high res lol.

I did a bit of testing in HL2 @ 1900 x 1200. Surprisiingly, there is definitely an improvement with AA even at that resolution. After trying nearly every combination of settings, I ended up playing the game with 16x AF, 8x CSAA, and SS Transparency AA.

The transparency AA is very important for IQ. It can make a big difference with certain objects, especially if SS. For AA, 16x was ideal, but only slightly better than 8x so I used 8x to keep framerates pegged at 85 (vsync on). With low AA settings, wires and fences will have noticable stepping even at 1900 x 1200.

Have fun with the new monitor. The IQ is stunning.
 
Indeed. A gimmick.



And I'm not? And I don't?

LOL We're all gamers! Oh yeah!!! Rock ON, come on good DirectX10 games!
We just need a gaming revolution. A game that would be just like Oblivion but that is actually related to something similar to this present reality of everyday living.

Like the Sims (popular with girls), but in a realistic DirectX 10 environment and we can date others. We can even see each other naked. Or pick fights with each other. Steal money from each other. When we get in trouble, we are temporarily suspended from playing the game because we are in "jail", or we can enjoy playing in the confines of a jail inside of the game.

This could be the ultimate endless fantasy world as the game continues on but with tweaking of graphics, game engine (ensured backwards-compatibility with updated engines), added content and expansions, etc.. Heck, we can call it our "alternate" lives. Or, our alternate reality that in which we have the full freedom to do and be what we dream of being like or doing in the real world, but cannot. How many of you would want to be playboys with countless playmates by your side? How many of you would like to be a Pharaoh owning a castle with 200 concubines, with the freedom to execute traitors and those worthy of execution? Girls are social animals, but does that mean us male gamers cannot socialize and enjoy virtual sex?


Well, soon this CRT monitor, even though it's the best of its kind, will look ancient someday--same with current LCD monitors lighted by fluorescent tubes. For fuller immersion in future games, we would need all points of rumble vibration feedback all over our bodies to emulate the sense of feeling, along with stereo 3-D vision (can be used with CRT monitors and Nvidia cards, google: stereoscopic, stereo3d, stereo 3d). Sound is already there basically--it's the easiest sense to fully emulate (wasnt radio one of the first electronic technologies after all)? Visuals and feeling.. we're getting there but definitely not smell or taste! Maybe a century later, we can easily emulate taste and smell by directly stimulating our brain nerves.

Gaming will no longer be just gaming--this new millennium marks the beginning of the Age of Alternate Reality!

Sorry for getting carried on with the future of gaming, but soon we'll enter a new gaming technology revolution and then look back at this monitor like as it it was the first Nintendo console.
 
Back
Top