http://forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?260932-SONY-GDM-F520-(21-quot-22-CRT)-monitor-for-LCD-trade
Anyone know which ones were these?
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24" Widescreen CRT (FW900) From Ebay arrived,Comments.
- Thread starter mathesar
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http://forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?260932-SONY-GDM-F520-(21-quot-22-CRT)-monitor-for-LCD-trade
Anyone know which ones were these?
jbltecnicspro
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I believe that SH1 is correct and that there were no rebrands of the F520. I have never seen a rebrand featuring a 0.22mm aperture grille screen. There are 0.24mm ones everywhere though.
OK, that guy in the post I made above probably mixed it up with some other Sony then.
LAGRUNAUER
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Manufacturing of all GDM and CPD line of monitors ceased at the end of 2003. Sony just keep assembling the GDM-FW900 and the C520 until the tubes ran out, and that was in January 2004 for the GDM-FW900 and August-September 2004 for the C520. No rebrands of the F520. No rebrands of the C520.
UV!
LAGRUNAUER
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Sony decided to pull out of the Computer Display market in 2006 when they stopped producing the SDM line of monitors in the US, but keep producing the displays in Japan when they released a 24" version of the SDM-P234 for Japan market only. I did get one of them for evaluation and it was decent but no match for the GDM-FW900.
Sony closed the Tijuana assembling line in 2006 as well, but kept the Service Center open. Back in 2009, I purchased from a broker doing the liquidation the last container with spare parts and some unassembled CRTs (most were CPD-G520P, CPD-G520, CPD-E540, GDM-F520, and GDM-C520.. None were GDM-FW900), that came out of the Sony assembling line in Tijuana, Mexico+(that's correct! They were assembled in Tijuana! - Don't believe? Open one of them and look at the labels inside the monitors). I assembled and sold all of them (close to 200 monitors) all over the world, and kept two (2) brand new unassembled Sony Artisans. Also, there were six (6) GDM-FW900 brand new in the boxes, and three (3) factory refurbished GDM-FW900... All sold as well...
UV!
spacediver
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thanks, that's really interesting information! And talk about a jackpot goldmine with that liquidation deal. I wonder if there are any other warehouses, or storage spaces with forgotten brand new GDM tubes and parts, just waiting to be discovered...
What do you guys think about slot-mask monitors? For example LG Flatron F920p.
How are they compared to SM and AG monitors? They still spread when heated up like SM's?
BTW, I have a question about dot pitch. When an LCD monitor has a dot pitch 0.25 does that mean that the sharpness is going to be the same as in CRT monitor with 0.25 dot/stripe pitch?
How are they compared to SM and AG monitors? They still spread when heated up like SM's?
BTW, I have a question about dot pitch. When an LCD monitor has a dot pitch 0.25 does that mean that the sharpness is going to be the same as in CRT monitor with 0.25 dot/stripe pitch?
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LAGRUNAUER
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Very unlikely... I knew all the outfits that did the liquidations of all the Sony warehouses in the US and I can tell you with 99% of certainty that there are no more brand new tubes in warehouses.
The 1% chance is for companies that bought these units in the past and still have some buried in storage and they don't know about it until is cleaning time...
UV!
rabidz7
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By slot-mask, do you mean chromaclear? If so, I have no experience with those.
A LCD is always 0.25 because it can't change resolution. A CRT can effectively change its dot pitch, but only up down to its stated minimum pitch (it's really more complicated than this, but that's the gist of it). This depends on resolution. A 250 micron CRT running at a 250 micron resolution should be equal in sharpness to a 250 micron LCD. However, if that CRT is running at a resolution below 250 microns, it will not be as sharp.
rabidz7
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As others have said, there were no true rebrands. However, if you are willing to use a Mitsubishi tube, there are plenty of monitors that are equal to it or even outperform it, such as the Iiyama 514 (probably the best CRT ever made, capable of 1440p at 96Hz), Electron Blue IV, and P1230.
jbltecnicspro
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I do think that the CRT will still be softer than the LCD monitor of equal dot pitch. Reason is in the mechanics behind the CRT. A focused electron beam across a screen won't be as sharp as switched pixels in an LCD. If you're after text clarity, get a shadow mask. Aperture grille monitors are more photo and video work.
spacediver
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0.25 mm? An LCD's dot pitch depends on its pixel density. This varies from model to model.
You seem to be obsessed with refresh rates. You should understand that there are many more aspects of a CRT that should be considered in addition to max refresh.
spacediver
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This is because of the different ways in which pitch is measured.
With a shadow mask, the pitch is measured at an angle, because of the arrangement of phosphor dots, so the measured pitch is larger than it would be if those phosphor dots had no vertical displacement from each other. It is larger by a factor of the cosine of the angle between these dots (i.e. the hypotenuse is larger than the horizontal line in a right angled triangle).
See the images in the wiki
As a result of this, even though the absolute distance between adjacent phosphor dots is larger than the horizontal displacement between them, when it comes to vertical lines, the human visual system spatially integrates vertical columns of dots into a perceptually continuous vertical line, so the distance between two adjacent vertical lines is what counts perceptually, and this distance is the horizontal displacement between the phosphor dots, which is smaller than the diagonally measured dot pitch.
With a shadow mask, the pitch is measured at an angle, because of the arrangement of phosphor dots, so the measured pitch is larger than it would be if those phosphor dots had no vertical displacement from each other. It is larger by a factor of the cosine of the angle between these dots (i.e. the hypotenuse is larger than the horizontal line in a right angled triangle).
See the images in the wiki
As a result of this, even though the absolute distance between adjacent phosphor dots is larger than the horizontal displacement between them, when it comes to vertical lines, the human visual system spatially integrates vertical columns of dots into a perceptually continuous vertical line, so the distance between two adjacent vertical lines is what counts perceptually, and this distance is the horizontal displacement between the phosphor dots, which is smaller than the diagonally measured dot pitch.
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OK so If I understand correctly, this means that what is written in that book is true? AG pitch of 0.25 equals around 0.27 pitch of shadow mask?
What about LCD? I suppose that shadow mask monitor and LCD that have 0.24 pitch would be equally sharp, right?
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spacediver
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It kinda depends on what you mean by "equals". I've edited my previous post for clarity, so hopefully it makes more sense now.
Sharpness isn't solely a function of dot pitch. The luminance profile of each pixel is important too. If each pixel is completely filled with a uniform luminance that is completely independent of adjacent pixels, the picture will have maximum sharpness (although it will look pretty harsh if the PPI isn't high enough and if intelligent subpixel rendering isn't used for things like text). A CRT's pixel has a luminance profile that gradually tapers off towards the periphery of each pixel, and this softens the image, even if the dot pitch is very fine.
Sharpness isn't solely a function of dot pitch. The luminance profile of each pixel is important too. If each pixel is completely filled with a uniform luminance that is completely independent of adjacent pixels, the picture will have maximum sharpness (although it will look pretty harsh if the PPI isn't high enough and if intelligent subpixel rendering isn't used for things like text). A CRT's pixel has a luminance profile that gradually tapers off towards the periphery of each pixel, and this softens the image, even if the dot pitch is very fine.
rabidz7
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Some people seem to really, really hate CRTs... Here's a Reddit page showing some of the insults that LCD peasants have told me after I posted my new PC build that was using a CRT on the PC Master Race. Some people have even gone as far as to tell me that I should kill myself. Note that this page isn't even a day's worth of insults and misinformation. I only have things that have been sent to me today after 6AM on that page yet: http://www.reddit.com/r/GloriousCRTMasterRace/wiki/knownpeasants
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spacediver
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Well you do come across as fanatical and misinformed a lot of the time. Why are you wasting your time on reddit?
schoolslave
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Oh please grow up.
You post in every thread from monitor suggestions to GPUs to news with your CRTs and RAMDACs (still not sure you understand what bandwidth actually means), calling people peasants, LCDs trash, GPUs without obsolete tech trash, etc. What do you expect?
CRTs are a niche within a niche. Besides, LCDs are objectively the better choice for 99% of users and there is just no more mass interest in CRTs, hence why threads like this one are actively posted in by 4-5 people and not much else (nothing wrong with that, the knowledge and dedication within this thread alone brings back memories of when most overclocking forums were full of the same dedication).
I think the sooner you drop childish things like "PC Masterrace" and "LCD peasants" the more respect you will get and people might take you seriously.
spacediver
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I'm very close to finalizing preparations for taking my measurements. I've written almost all the code, and am almost ready to determine optimal aperture. I might have some time on sunday to work on this, but as flod says, we don't know for sure whether the image quality is superior without AG. The immediate increase in brightness upon removing it may give the illusion of a clearer image. The increased reflectiveness also gives a glossiness that has its own aesthetic appeal.
First thing I'll do before calculating modulation transfer functions is to just take a regular image of the phosphor screen, in a light controlled environment, on two identically calibrated units (one of which has AG and one of which doesn't), and it should be apparent if there are any obvious differences in the amount of detail between the two. I'm able to achieve incredible focus with my setup, such that I can easily make out imperfections in the phosphor screen. Such detail will be useful when comparing images.
First thing I'll do before calculating modulation transfer functions is to just take a regular image of the phosphor screen, in a light controlled environment, on two identically calibrated units (one of which has AG and one of which doesn't), and it should be apparent if there are any obvious differences in the amount of detail between the two. I'm able to achieve incredible focus with my setup, such that I can easily make out imperfections in the phosphor screen. Such detail will be useful when comparing images.
KazeoHin
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I don't mind old CRTs for games/media designed prior to 1999, it makes sense to play old consoles and arcade emulators on a proper CRT. but to use one on today's internet, with today's games? That's kind of like using a typewriter nowadays because the custom-cut letterstamps make a sharper line on the paper versus a 600DPI laser printer. CRTs are no longer in production. Its not a niche market: it isn't a market. The first LCD panels to come out used disgusting TN panels, were dark and fat... I could understand loving your CRT back in 2003-2006. But now? Give me a nice (not even top-range) IPS or VA panel, a good refresh rate, and resolution approaching 4,800 pixels wide. Put it next to your CRT, and everyone (including seasoned professionals) will want the LCD.
I would give MAD props to anyone rocking an FW900 at a LAN, especially if they rock it with a period-appropriate AMD FX 5200 build in a big, '90s style full-tower case, watercooled with old zalman parts, cold cathode UVs and big, neon coils.
The moment they tried to tell me that it was better than today's tech, and was anything other than a period-piece? Yep, they'd be filed under 'hipster'.
spacediver
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agreed, and in terms of size and resolution, the FW900 is more than sufficient for many purposes. I suppose having a huge monitor might be nice for viewing movies from a larger distance, and it might be nice for laying out multiple windows and documents, but the FW900 is certainly more than a period piece.
some are baked onto the glass (like the sony 520) and can't be removed.
Otherwise, yeah, i think they are the same in that regard. Just peel them off.
The image quality is definitely better but looking back, i think i wouldn't remove mine again.
It is just completely unusable with any light around.
you mean GDM F520 ? or CPD G520 ?
jbltecnicspro
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Both. As far as I know, all of the 520's belong to the chassis group CR-1. All of these monitors have baked on anti-glare.
jbltecnicspro
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jbltecnicspro
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I'll go against the grain here and say that if my anti-glare wasn't nicked, I would prefer to leave it ON. Since it was nicked and scratched a little, it came off. I'm okay with it, and it looks good no matter what, but it's a permanent solution. And you may not like it afterward. If your anti-glare has no issues, I would recommend against removal.
jbltecnicspro
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Haha. I hate hipsters sometimes. People rocking an old piece of crap turntable and trying to tell me how much better it is than a digital 192khz/24-bit piece with careful mastering. I do disagree though that the top-end GDM's are nothing more than period-pieces. I think the only issue with them at this point is their age (if they've been abused) and their size. Sure, CRT's are softer than LCD's, but my FW900 is perfectly useable on the internet at 2304x1440 - 80hz.
Don't get me wrong. I like LCD's and for the majority of users, I think they're the superior choice. But in my opinion nothing beats a good tube. When OLED or a better-than-LCD tech comes out, then that's probably when I would switch and never go back, unless I still want to rock some old-school systems (like a DOS Box).
No.
KazeoHin
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Resolution, pixel density, ease of maintenance. Picture quality? Please. Ten years ago, yes, you had a point. Now? IPS, VA, 144hz 1440p models blow even the best CRTs of old into obsolescence, find a CRT that can output a sharp 4K desktop. Sorry guys. I love the 1969 Corvette, I think it was one of the best cars made. But it's a heavy, clunky unreliable and slow vehicle compared to even a modern Kia. I make no mistakes holding onto the romance by tricking myself into thinking the Vette is a better car.
Good to nearly perfect black level and color accuracy. Two things a LCD is not able to achieve completley.
I dont want to flame about LCD's but i could not get happy with one because you have to choose color accuracy or response time.
OLED is the next thing for us. Just wait.....
I dont want to flame about LCD's but i could not get happy with one because you have to choose color accuracy or response time.
OLED is the next thing for us. Just wait.....
jbltecnicspro
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Out of curiosity, when's the last time you saw one in person?
jbltecnicspro
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OLED will fully put CRT into obsolescence with all but the most niche needs (like arcade emulation, for example). I'm stoked about it.
spacediver
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LCDs can achieve just as good color accuracy as a CRT. Not sure where the idea came from that they can't (granted, the ones that do have nice colors aren't the most responsive).
But yes, I suspect the poster in question would have a swift change of opinion if they saw a fully calibrated FW900 in action.
