2.1 Throwdown: Holidays 2007

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Phyltre

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
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I've got an X-Fi Extremegamer in the box and Grado SR80s sitting on the desk, along with Altec Lansing FX4021s. I'd like to replace/hand-down the FXs, which never sounded particularly good to me.

Let's say I could buy the

-Klipsch Promedia 2.1s or
-Logitech Z2300s or
-Swan M10s​

at the same price point. I've heard good things about these, and due to certain circumstances I could get any of these models for ~$100. If you couldn't tell, I'm in the market for a good set of 2.1 speakers. My biggest concerns are sound and build quality; I'm not terribly concerned with heavy bass. (I'm in an apartment, so I'll have to cut out most of it for the time being anyway.) Any other suggestions are welcome, although they'll need to be in the $0-110 range since these are the only ones I can get special pricing on and that's my budget at the moment.

Looking around, the Promedias are usually given the thumbs for better sound quality, but lately reviews point towards failing build quality (and the design is from 2001, from what I can tell.) However, some reviewers have gone the other way and chosen the Logitechs in head-to-heads. The Swans are probably the X factor for most of us, since headfi appears to be down.

My central curiousity here is a comparison of these three units assuming equivalent price. Do the Swans still hold their own when they're not cheaper? Do the Logitechs bow to the older Promedias, or has the oldtimer been dethroned?
 
/me pets his ProMedia 2.1 set... there there, don't let the funky old Logitechs scare ya...

Dethroned? NEVER! :)

Can't go wrong with Klipsch, you just can't. Get the speakers home and test 'em for yourself, with your own 2 ears (at least 1, surely 2) and make your own decision. Personally, there is nothing out there that can touch the ProMedia 2.1 for the clarity and raw power they offer. Besides, I got mine for $20 because of busted control pod; the owner was gonna toss 'em in the garbage so I snagged 'em for $20 and fixed 'em myself. You can buy replacement pods now, which I didn't know, but they kick ass all over the apartment and the building and back.

I've been into consumer audio hardware and equipment since the early 70s when I was a kid, and to this day there's just nothing I've ever heard that compares except for the original Bose AM5 Acoustimass speaker setup - the original 2.1 speakers.

For the price, and the sound quality, and the raw power, you cannot go wrong with the Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 speakers.

</That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it>
 
bbz_Ghost said:
/me pets his ProMedia 2.1 set... there there, don't let the funky old Logitechs scare ya...

Dethroned? NEVER! :)

Can't go wrong with Klipsch, you just can't. Get the speakers home and test 'em for yourself, with your own 2 ears (at least 1, surely 2) and make your own decision. Personally, there is nothing out there that can touch the ProMedia 2.1 for the clarity and raw power they offer.
Click to expand...

You mean for cheap computer speakers, right?

I've been into consumer audio hardware and equipment since the early 70s when I was a kid, and to this day there's just nothing I've ever heard that compares except for the original Bose AM5 Acoustimass speaker setup - the original 2.1 speakers.
Click to expand...

You're kidding, right?
 
I'm still trying to look for a decent review of the Swan M10's myself. I have the Klipsch Promedia 4.1 setup that I paid $60 for and really like, but I need some speakers for my rig and have been debating whether to get these or not.
 
Nicolaskl said:
You mean for cheap computer speakers, right?

You're kidding, right?
Click to expand...

If you think any Klipsch product is a 'cheap computer speaker' then boy have you got a lot to learn.

But considering the choices the OP listed and only those, the ProMedia 2.1 would be the best choice for a variety of reasons.

Most people have never heard the original Bose AM5 system because it was manufactured only for a short period of time in the mid-1980s - around the time a lot of you young pups were being hatched - so, if you haven't heard them, haven't heard just how good a 2.1 set can truly sound, then you simply don't have a clue.
 
Looks like I'll be going with the Klipsches on these. They were my first choice, I was just a little scared because the design apparently hasn't changed at all in six years (which, in computer time, is roughly an eon) and I've heard that their build quality might be suffering a little. But if the [H]ardForum gives a green light, I can't disagree!
 
bbz_Ghost said:
But considering the choices the OP listed and only those, the ProMedia 2.1 would be the best choice for a variety of reasons.
Click to expand...

What are the reasons that the ProMedia 2.1 are better than the M10s or the Z2300s?
i've been thinking of getting one of these three and right now i'm leaning towards either the ProMedia 2.1 or the M10s.
 
bbz_Ghost said:
/me pets his ProMedia 2.1 set... there there, don't let the funky old Logitechs scare ya...

Dethroned? NEVER! :)

Can't go wrong with Klipsch, you just can't. Get the speakers home and test 'em for yourself, with your own 2 ears (at least 1, surely 2) and make your own decision. Personally, there is nothing out there that can touch the ProMedia 2.1 for the clarity and raw power they offer. Besides, I got mine for $20 because of busted control pod; the owner was gonna toss 'em in the garbage so I snagged 'em for $20 and fixed 'em myself. You can buy replacement pods now, which I didn't know, but they kick ass all over the apartment and the building and back.

I've been into consumer audio hardware and equipment since the early 70s when I was a kid, and to this day there's just nothing I've ever heard that compares except for the original Bose AM5 Acoustimass speaker setup - the original 2.1 speakers.

For the price, and the sound quality, and the raw power, you cannot go wrong with the Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 speakers.

</That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it>
Click to expand...

You must be quite old and have cloth ears becasue there are plenty of speakers better then ProMedia 2.1. Not for $20.00 though. I have ProMedia 2.1 and they have good mids , smooth treble and boomy lows (which is not really good) but my Monsoon Planar speakers have better details and highs. My Energy RC minis with Energy 8" sub kick the ProMedia's arse in every area but you need an amp for those and they cost a lot more than the ProMedias too.

Here's my pick that will beat any computer speakers out there, but you need an amp. Energy is owned by Klipsch, BTW.

2 of these in black piano finish
http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/products/product-page.php?id=315

1 of these, no choice on finish, just flat black
http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/products/product-page.php?id=40
 
My dad has a pair of Bose AM5 that he got in the early 90s. I hope you weren't referring to those, because imo they are terrible. For the money they cost, you can get SUCH better speakers. They hardly qualify as 2.1 speakers at all (again my opinion) due to the passive bass, which produces less bass than my pair of Bose 601.
Nick, what speakers would you recommend? I also am looking for some new computer speakers, and am looking for suggestions. I have been leaning towards the Swans.
 
milkweg said:
You must be quite old and have cloth ears becasue there are plenty of speakers better then ProMedia 2.1. Not for $20.00 though. I have ProMedia 2.1 and they have good mids , smooth treble and boomy lows (which is not really good) but my Monsoon Planar speakers have better details and highs. My Energy RC minis with Energy 8" sub kick the ProMedia's arse in every area but you need an amp for those and they cost a lot more than the ProMedias too.

Here's my pick that will beat any computer speakers out there, but you need an amp. Energy is owned by Klipsch, BTW.

2 of these in black piano finish
http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/products/product-page.php?id=315

1 of these, no choice on finish, just flat black
http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/products/product-page.php?id=40
Click to expand...

Here's how I will put it...

In the grand scheme of things - from my experience only - the Promedias have clean highs. Mids are recessed and bass is of low quality.

That's in the grand scheme of it though.

In the computer scheme of audio, the Promedias will get you further down the road than any other computer speaker I know of short of the M200.
 
bbz_Ghost said:
I've been into consumer audio hardware and equipment since the early 70s when I was a kid, and to this day there's just nothing I've ever heard that compares except for the original Bose AM5 Acoustimass speaker setup - the original 2.1 speakers.
Click to expand...

A guy who loves a computer setup and Bose yet claims to know what he's talking about.

I had that Klipsch set, the 2.1 THX, and let me tell you, it did go loud, but it hurt my ears sounding like crap. Boomy bass tuned way too high and way too harsh highs. I'd sooner recommend some Dayton BR-1s, their SUB80 and a T amp.
 
I own the Klipsch 2.1's and they're good. My brother has the Z2300's and I prefer my Klipsch speakers for sure. They've definitely got a clearer sound. I find the Z230's don't sound upfront enough for my liking, and the mids are not as sweet.

I found the ProMedia's bass needed to be tuned a bit though, especially at first. It took awhile for the sub to get worked in and act a bit faster, and sound less boomy (probably around 2-3 months and a lot of use). Nonetheless is can be tweaked with some bass roll off.

Btw, I own audiophile speakers (B&W's) and the Klipsch's are great for computer speakers. Although, had I known about those Axiom speakers I probably would have picked some of them up instead of the Promedia's..but that's an entirely different budget.
 
bbz_Ghost said:
If you think any Klipsch product is a 'cheap computer speaker' then boy have you got a lot to learn.
Click to expand...

Their cheap computer speakers are cheap computer speakers. That doesn't mean that they're without merit, it just means that they aren't really that great.

Sorry that (since you own them) you think they're the second coming of Christ, but they're not. They're certainly not bad for what they are, but they're not the price and physics defying dynamos you make them out to be.

Most people have never heard the original Bose AM5 system because it was manufactured only for a short period of time in the mid-1980s - around the time a lot of you young pups were being hatched - so, if you haven't heard them, haven't heard just how good a 2.1 set can truly sound, then you simply don't have a clue.
Click to expand...

Unless you can provide data to the contrary, every AM5 system came with "subwoofers" that were FAR too small to actually be subwoofers, and satellites that were too big to be tweeters and too small to do competent midrange (~2.5" drivers). Maybe they used higher quality drivers back then but that doesn't change the fundamental laws of physics that basically make the dimensions of those drivers pretty much incapable of being anything other than a steaming pile of crap.

I guess I'm clueless and have a lot to learn though, because I don't think the hundred dollar PC system you own is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and don't worship the old, cheap, poorly engineered and constructed Bose piece of trash that you, for some reason, equate to audio Nirvana.
 
L O L

If you think Bose owns then I really don't want to argue that.

Bose does own. That is why their speakers are constantly getting rave reviews in Audio Magazines.....oh wait they are in the magazines only as ADs b/c they are all marketing and no real sound.

Klipsch is only good for their very best speakers which start at $1000 a pair. The Promedia 2.1 is POOP. Big BOOMY piles of it.

BOO!
 
spaceman said:
L O L
Klipsch is only good for their very best speakers which start at $1000 a pair. The Promedia 2.1 is POOP. Big BOOMY piles of it.
Click to expand...

Just roll off the bass a bit and you're left with a decent set of 2.1's...seriously. I hate super-boomy bass. I want to chuck rocks at assholes with massive boomy subs in their cars. But the Promedia 2.1 are a respectable computer speaker.
 
I own both the klipsch and the swan 2.1's. The klipsch have more bass but the swans wipe the floor with the klipsch satellites. It's not even close. You'd have to be deaf not to agree.

On the other hand, the klipsch sub has a lot more oomph, while the swans is more musical. Movies and games my pick goes to klipsch, not even close. Music, the victory to Swans by an even larger margin.

I find it really hard to believe someone could prefer the klipsch satellites over the swans. I get the feeling some people in this thead are not experienced with good sound.

I am. Check my sig (and I'm at a conservatory training to be a concert pianist).

Of course different people will prefer a different sound, but if music is your primary concern, the choice is clear.

Edit: The swans subwoofer must be placed directly in the middle of the speakers or staging will be destroyed. I don't even really think of it as as subwoofer; more like a 5in driver just to give some presence to the lower octaves.
 
Concert Pianist pffft. What would you know of good sound? Klipsch and Bose are clearly superior for all sounds including massive farts.

Sorry it is early and I feel silly.
 
Oh I dunno I play on $100,000 pianos and go to orchestras, symphonies, and hear the finest vocalists in the world on a daily basis, all in acoustically perfect conditions.

It's easy, if the speakers sound like real life, they're good. If they don't, they're bad. :)

For massive farts though I would take the Bose. It depends on how massive though I suppose; too massive and their non-treated paper cones might explode.
 
computerpro3 said:
Oh I dunno I play on $100,000 pianos and go to orchestras, symphonies, and hear the finest vocalists in the world on a daily basis.

It's easy, if the speakers sound like real life, they're good. If they don't, they're bad. :)

For massive farts though I would take the Bose. It depends on how massive though I suppose; too massive and their non-treated paper cones might explode.
Click to expand...

Agreed!

That is why I love single driver speakers and electrostats.

BOSE OWNS YOUR MOM!!!!
 
computerpro3 said:
I find it really hard to believe someone could prefer the klipsch satellites over the swans. I get the feeling some people in this thead are not experienced with good sound.
Click to expand...

I'm glad to see some people get it here. I bet very few of the people recommending the Klipsch have heard the Swans (or really nice speakers), while everyone against the Klipsch have had the Klipsch.
 
dandragonrage said:
I'm glad to see some people get it here. I bet very few of the people recommending the Klipsch have heard the Swans (or really nice speakers), while everyone against the Klipsch have had the Klipsch.
Click to expand...

Are we talking Swam M10 or Swan M200?
 
Pinipig523 said:
Are we talking Swam M10 or Swan M200?
Click to expand...

I own all three of the systems. Here's my rundown:

Klipsch: Best for movies and gaming. Shrill highs, no midrange, loudest bass but not musically accurate. I really don't like the subwoofer on this. It doesn't hit deep or hard enough for rap and it's way too boomy for rock and classical. It's good for nothing musical, essentially.

Swan M10: Lively midrange, similar to Grado headphones, lose in the highs to the M200's in terms of realism but blow away the klipsch. Extend lower than M200's due to sub, but subwoofer is not good for gaming or movies. Great soundstaging for near-field speakers. Brilliant for jazz. Forget about rap. Great with rock if you don't need bone-crushing bass - the mids work beautifully on guitar. Classical is excellent.

Swan M200: More laid back midrange than the M10, very smooth highs (not sibilant at all), very little bass. If you wanted to augment these with a small 8in subwoofer they would win hands down. I don't like them on the desk as much as the M10's, believe it or not, but if you're looking for speakers that will work the best in a larger space, the M200's are it. Again, great for jazz (although you need a subwoofer for double bass), the best for classical, rock would be great as well with a sub (although I prefer M10's because they are less laid back). Forget about rap or trance.

Pick whatever you'll enjoy the most.

I am a very discriminating listener (look at my headphone setup). I wanted something for my desk that would sound good. I couldn't go bookshelves because my Dell 3007FPW and Canon printer take up too much space, so I was left with computer speakers. The swans far and away are the best for music in the computer speaker range, and the M10 is the only one I brought with me to the dorm. The others are sitting at home. I don't miss them a bit.
 
Jesus..the OP wanted some info on comp speakers, not a flame war between a bose lover (have been there myself) and people who know that theres better than bose

Swan M10's are a bit better IMO, but i would rather get a set of bookshelves and an amp, you can always wall mount them if space is a issue
 
If you have the space, nearfield monitors with a subwoofer will beat the M10's. But you will HAVE to spend $200-300 more to beat them. Normal bookshelf speakers are NOT meant to be listened to from two/three feet away and will not sound as good as nearfield.
 
Does anyone know of any places locally that sell the Swan M10 in Vancouver Canada? The place in Richmond, BC that is listed on Swan's website seems to no longer exist.
 
computerpro3 said:
If you have the space, nearfield monitors with a subwoofer will beat the M10's. But you will HAVE to spend $200-300 more to beat them. Normal bookshelf speakers are NOT meant to be listened to from two/three feet away and will not sound as good as nearfield.
Click to expand...

Most 5.25" 2-way bookshelves work fine at 1-2' in my experience. 6.5" would be considerably tougher. I'm pretty sure Dayton BR-1s and a T amp will beat any mass marketed computer speakers.
 
dandragonrage said:
Most 5.25" 2-way bookshelves work fine at 1-2' in my experience. 6.5" would be considerably tougher. I'm pretty sure Dayton BR-1s and a T amp will beat any mass marketed computer speakers.
Click to expand...

Even with the Dayton kit with the t-amp you're looking at over $200 plus assembly time. Over twice the cost of the swans, plus assembly time, plus the fact that they still won't have the coherence of staging of a 3in dedicated midrange when you're only a foot or two away. They won't have the bass extensioneither.

Move back or ask them to fill a room, and that's when they blow away the swans.
 
Unless you put the M10 subwoofer directly in front of you (which is FAILFAILFAIL), the Daytons will have more bass. And they'll have at least as much as the M200s. And the BR-1s are $130, T amp about $30. More than the M10s, but not exactly breaking the bank. They are not the best speakers to use, of course, but they're a good value.
 
The m10 sub is meant to be placed directly in front of you. That's where it actually sounds best. It's only a 5.25in driver, it's not really a true sub. I know it's bizzare, but it doesn't hurt soundstaging at all.

Yes, the daytons will sound better overall. Just not likely from very close.
 
I don't know a lot of setups where placing the M10 directly in front of you works unless you want to raise your monitor up considerably (and uncomfortably).
 
computerpro3 said:
Even with the Dayton kit with the t-amp you're looking at over $200 plus assembly time. Over twice the cost of the swans, plus assembly time, plus the fact that they still won't have the coherence of staging of a 3in dedicated midrange when you're only a foot or two away. They won't have the bass extensioneither.

Move back or ask them to fill a room, and that's when they blow away the swans.
Click to expand...

The bolded quote is a neg to my knowledge.

In essence, the 3-in driver on the M10 which requires augmentation below 140hz from a 5.25in "bass driver" is less coherent than the single woofer on the Daytons. The fact that you're having to splice the signal with a crossover at 140hz is reason enough.

The M10, being satellite/sub driver, will not be as coherent as a bookshelf.
 
bbz_Ghost said:
to this day there's just nothing I've ever heard that compares except for the original Bose AM5 Acoustimass speaker setup - the original 2.1 speakers.
Click to expand...

Oh my god.

ROFL

To me this reads as "I know absolutely nothing whatsoever about audio reproduction."
 
I love the people in this thread that claim to have the absolute answers to audio fidelity and brand.
Ultimately, in my experience, how you feel about ANY speaker set is completely subjective. Like my dad used to say, "Speakers are like wine and women, it all depends on what you like." And I think it's really true. Like the guy who said he liked those old Bose 2.1's; for his ears/tastes/use, they might be the pinnacle of audio equipment.
Me? I love my Boston Acoustics CR8 bookshelf speakers, and I use them as front right/left channels on my home theater system. Some people think it's ridiculous, but for the sound and the cost, I love em. The metal grills were a big selling....
never mind, back OT...
 
Modred189 said:
I love the people in this thread that claim to have the absolute answers to audio fidelity and brand.
Ultimately, in my experience, how you feel about ANY speaker set is completely subjective. Like my dad used to say, "Speakers are like wine and women, it all depends on what you like." And I think it's really true. Like the guy who said he liked those old Bose 2.1's; for his ears/tastes/use, they might be the pinnacle of audio equipment.
Me? I love my Boston Acoustics CR8 bookshelf speakers, and I use them as front right/left channels on my home theater system. Some people think it's ridiculous, but for the sound and the cost, I love em. The metal grills were a big selling....
never mind, back OT...
Click to expand...

The person that you're defending, as far as I can tell, is also the biggest offender when it comes to the attitude you're criticizing. HE is the one telling people (ie, me) that I don't have a clue and I have a lot to learn because I don't agree with him that:

1. Hundred dollar Klipsch speakers are the second best speaker system ever made.
2. Bose AM5, which has basically been proven to be physically incapable of outputting good/accurate sound, is the best speaker system ever made.

There's plenty of room in here for difference in taste. If he came in here and said he'd been into audio for 35 years and the second best speaker he'd ever heard was the Klipsch Cornwall, or a set of Maggies, or av123s Minis, or any of thousands of other speakers, nobody would have said shit to him. But he didn't. He came in here and said I have 35 years of experience (ie I'm an extremely experienced audiophile), I know what I'm talking about, and the second best thing I've ever heard is a 99 dollar set of PC speakers, and if you don't agree with my you're clueless and have no experience. That, literally, is exactly what he said.

I have been a gourmand for 35 years. I've eaten at the finest restaurants all across the world. I'm extremely experienced, I know exactly what I'm talking about, there's no room to question me, and the absolute best goddamn meal I've ever had in my entire life was a plate full of cat shit that I fished out of my litter box and then served with a nice sauce made by boiling my own urine. What do you say to that?

In food, too, there are room for different tastes. Some people like broccoli. Some people don't. There is also room for absolutes, and one of those absolutes is that urine drenched cat shit is not the tastiest dish in all the lands.

There are room for absolutes in audio as well, and if someone says to me that the best system they've ever heard is the AM5 and the second best is a 99 dollar set of PC speakers, then either they have only heard 3 or 4 different speakers, or they have a tin ear. In either case they shouldn't really be advising other people on their purchases, and they definitely shouldn't be insisting that anyone that disagrees with their opinion is wrong.
 
Nicolaskl said:
The person that you're defending, as far as I can tell...
... In either case they shouldn't really be advising other people on their purchases, and they definitely shouldn't be insisting that anyone that disagrees with their opinion is wrong.
Click to expand...

Oh, don't get me wrong, I was not defending anyone, just citing an easy and oft-quoted example.
 
Nicolaskl said:
The person that you're defending, as far as I can tell, is also the biggest offender when it comes to the attitude you're criticizing. HE is the one telling people (ie, me) that I don't have a clue and I have a lot to learn because I don't agree with him that:

1. Hundred dollar Klipsch speakers are the second best speaker system ever made.
2. Bose AM5, which has basically been proven to be physically incapable of outputting good/accurate sound, is the best speaker system ever made.

There's plenty of room in here for difference in taste. If he came in here and said he'd been into audio for 35 years and the second best speaker he'd ever heard was the Klipsch Cornwall, or a set of Maggies, or av123s Minis, or any of thousands of other speakers, nobody would have said shit to him. But he didn't. He came in here and said I have 35 years of experience (ie I'm an extremely experienced audiophile), I know what I'm talking about, and the second best thing I've ever heard is a 99 dollar set of PC speakers, and if you don't agree with my you're clueless and have no experience. That, literally, is exactly what he said.

I have been a gourmand for 35 years. I've eaten at the finest restaurants all across the world. I'm extremely experienced, I know exactly what I'm talking about, there's no room to question me, and the absolute best goddamn meal I've ever had in my entire life was a plate full of cat shit that I fished out of my litter box and then served with a nice sauce made by boiling my own urine. What do you say to that?

In food, too, there are room for different tastes. Some people like broccoli. Some people don't. There is also room for absolutes, and one of those absolutes is that urine drenched cat shit is not the tastiest dish in all the lands.

There are room for absolutes in audio as well, and if someone says to me that the best system they've ever heard is the AM5 and the second best is a 99 dollar set of PC speakers, then either they have only heard 3 or 4 different speakers, or they have a tin ear. In either case they shouldn't really be advising other people on their purchases, and they definitely shouldn't be insisting that anyone that disagrees with their opinion is wrong.
Click to expand...

That was beautifully said.
 
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