Welfare Agents Tapped License Plate Database to Track and Prove Welfare Fraud

cageymaru

cageymaru

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Since 2016, welfare fraud investigators in Sacramento, California have been using the automated license plate recognition (ALPR) system to track welfare recipients to prove fraud. The Department of Human Assistance (DHA) didn't notify the public of this as required by Senate Bill 34, until the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) requested a public records request of the policy. Are we getting closer to a dystopian future like China? When is it fine to secretly track the public?

"Each time a criminal investigator accesses the information, they ... must document the reason why the data is being requested from the system," she said. The department was not conducting periodic audits of the documentation to ensure that investigators are using the data the way they claim, which is also required by law. But Edwards says internal audits are starting this week, and will occur every two months.
 
If grandma or grandpa visits the kids or watches the kids once a week is that license plate tracked 24/7?

What if they ride the bus, does that frustrate investigators and they track their phones with cell tower pings or request Google's tracking data on an Android phone?

Can they submit the kid's Xbox login activity as proof of being in the house?
 
Retronym said:
You mean to tell me identification numbers are used to single people out?!
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...certain DHA employees used the “stakeout” feature in the ALPR database, which allows the user to view license plates and other information about every single vehicle that visited a particular location, regardless of whether they were recipients of benefits.
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Are we getting closer to a dystopian future like China? When is it fine to secretly track the public?
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Seriously? We are already being tracked and have been for some time. You have a smart phone? You are being tracked. You use the Internet? You are being tracked. You drive? You are being tracked. There are cameras everywhere. Any smart phone can have its camera activated at any time. Stop light cameras, traffic cameras, parking lot cameras,....I need to check my shorts to make they have not snuck one in there.

A little late to be getting all bent out of shape about it.
 
If they used it on people on the dole then sure why not. If you don't want them to follow you, then don't use welfare.

If they are tracking people NOT on welfare but using their authority as welfare agents, then that is exceeding their mandate and authority. As for the issue of proper book-keeping - this is the government we're talking about right? They could misplace guns / tanks / all sorts of crap so don't be surprised when they fuck up paperwork.
 
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I don't really understand the author's complaint.

He seems perfectly happy with social media companies acting as arbiters of the truth, but gets upset and goes 'dystopian' over publicly visibly license plates being tracked?
 
So it would be fine to have agents physically follow welfare fraudsters and photograph them engaging in activities they say they are unable to do, to disprove disability?

But it's not ok to do the same thing using license plate data.

I say use whatever tools you have at your disposal.
 
They should use it to flag out of state plates and mexican plates ..they are supposed to register after 20 days of residency. Military is exempted of course

Am tired of seeing every 3rd or 4th car with those plates and our fees keep going up and up .

Kenny
 
As someone who values privacy, I'm actually not really finding an issue with this.

Like, they're tracking your registered license plate, not your face or biometrics. You can change your plate, but you can't change biometrics.

I don't see how in this use case this is any different from hiring police or a private investigator to do the same work. It's a tool to help fraud.

My general concern is if it were to be used to track absolutely everyone, in a blanket regard.

I may have misread it, but I think this is just tracking specific individuals. If that is reality, then that seems fair to me.
 
Tracking via license plate isn't a big deal to me. Driving on taxpayer funded roads isn't exactly a "right" that you are guaranteed.

Don't want to be tracked? Walk or take public transit.
 
When you're on a public road, literally anyone can track you. Hell, whenever you're outside anyone, anyone can track you. Even the gubmint.

This is somehow horrifying when your fucking phone calls and online interactions are getting databased in the almighty fear of the tururism?

Wake the fuck up if you think dystopia is surveillance, you're there.

If you're smarter than that and realise that there is more to a dystopia, like the aggressive filtering of public information, government control of media, persecution of investigation, investigation for the purpose of persecution, demand for political fealty, division for the purpose of exploitation. Oh fuck, wait.

We're there, I think we've been there for quite some time.

The real master-stroke is convincing the populace to fear and loath their neighbours. Once you get the masses to spy on one another, you've mastered dystopia building 101.
 
Public access identification number, in plain view of everyone?

I don't see the problem.
 
BSmith said:
Seriously? We are already being tracked and have been for some time. You have a smart phone? You are being tracked. You use the Internet? You are being tracked. You drive? You are being tracked. There are cameras everywhere. Any smart phone can have its camera activated at any time. Stop light cameras, traffic cameras, parking lot cameras,....I need to check my shorts to make they have not snuck one in there.

A little late to be getting all bent out of shape about it.
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Terrible argument. Just because the water is getting closer to boiling doesn't mean we have to start accepting our death.
 
Twisted Kidney said:
When you're on a public road, literally anyone can track you. Hell, whenever you're outside anyone, anyone can track you. Even the gubmint.

This is somehow horrifying when your fucking phone calls and online interactions are getting databased in the almighty fear of the tururism?

Wake the fuck up if you think dystopia is surveillance, you're there.

If you're smarter than that and realise that there is more to a dystopia, like the aggressive filtering of public information, government control of media, persecution of investigation, investigation for the purpose of persecution, demand for political fealty, division for the purpose of exploitation. Oh fuck, wait.

We're there, I think we've been there for quite some time.

The real master-stroke is convincing the populace to fear and loath their neighbours. Once you get the masses to spy on one another, you've mastered dystopia building 101.
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Its got to have a beginning. First ignore the laws on the books, then get people to readily accept surveillance tracking as an expected activity.
 
BSmith said:
Seriously? We are already being tracked and have been for some time. You have a smart phone? You are being tracked. You use the Internet? You are being tracked. You drive? You are being tracked. There are cameras everywhere. Any smart phone can have its camera activated at any time. Stop light cameras, traffic cameras, parking lot cameras,....I need to check my shorts to make they have not snuck one in there.
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Yet someone comes into the neighborhood near the park and dumps a bunch of garbage because... "I'm too fucking lazy to call for the twice a year pick up of bulky items" or someone scopes out the neighborhood and breaks into cars, then they have no fucking clue who did it, and police rely on homeowners with security cameras of which none work really well showing plate numbers whether day or night.
 
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The Mad Atheist said:
"The Department of Human Assistance (DHA) didn't notify the public of this as required by Senate Bill 34, "
Sometimes you have to go ninja style so the sneaky thieves aren't aware.
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I dont know.. i think it would be kinda funny to see them proudly proclaiming such on the freeway signs that point out traffic issues


Imagine driving and the billboard simply says..

We are Watching.. Stay safe citizen
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Terrible argument. Just because the water is getting closer to boiling doesn't mean we have to start accepting our death.
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Uhmm....we already have. I was stating a simple truth.

sfsuphysics said:
Yet someone comes into the neighborhood near the park and dumps a bunch of garbage because... "I'm too fucking lazy to call for the twice a year pick up of bulky items" or someone scopes out the neighborhood and breaks into cars, then they have no fucking clue who did it, and police rely on homeowners with security cameras of which none work really well showing plate numbers whether day or night.
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Well of course, that is going to vary from neighborhood to neighborhood.
 
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c3k said:
If there is a law on the books and a government agency, and thereby agents, is not following the law, then there needs to be a consequence.
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Lets watch you every moment to make sure you don't break any laws, citizen.
 
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As much as I hate to say it, 'You have no reasonable expectation of visual privacy in a public place, especially if it is a government maintained utility like roads"

That said, storing of data without any implication of crime happening is questionable at best.

In other words, I consider it okay to use the tech if looking for an active crime (ie: Stolen car). But it can be misused if data is stored to look for future crimes. I consider that a pre-search for evidence without a warrant.
 
dvsman said:
If they used it on people on the dole then sure why not. If you don't want them to follow you, then don't use welfare.

If they are tracking people NOT on welfare but using their authority as welfare agents, then that is exceeding their mandate and authority. As for the issue of proper book-keeping - this is the government we're talking about right? They could misplace guns / tanks / all sorts of crap so don't be surprised when they fuck up paperwork.
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Show me the part of the Law that says your reasonable expectation of privacy or even 4th Amendment rights get taken away if you accept welfare. The Supreme Court even recently said that GPS locators on cars are illegal for cops to use without a warrant. It's not a hard stretch to include plate scanners in that line of thinking.
 
Are neighbors tracked? Do they delete that data? Yeah, right.

Are there HIPAA violations near hospitals?
 
Anyone ever find a solution to those cameras?

I’ve heard both the plastic films and spray on coatings don’t actually work. Anyone know more about it than a few hours googling?
 
BSmith said:
Uhmm....we already have. I was stating a simple truth.



Well of course, that is going to vary from neighborhood to neighborhood.
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You may have, I have not. I actively fight the tracking whenever I reasonably can. Just because it is getting harder and harder to avoid doesn't mean we have to accept it as ok.
 
While fraud is reportedly minimal in the welfare systems (and usually winds up being committed by vendors, not by recipients) whenever you have a large enough number of people involved in something, there will be some bad eggs.

I'm all for using whatever data is necessary to track down those committing fraud, but there really ought to be some sort of judicial review and warrant process. We have these checks and balances for a reason!
 
They aren't tracking everyone on welfare. They are investigating cases where someone is expected of welfare fraud, and even then they appear to be mainly using it to track people down when they aren't located at where they claim to reside. It doesn't take the place of an investigation, it aids in an investigation. Instead of staking out suspects addresses, they can use the LPR data to see who frequents those locations. It generates leads on where the person might be living, but those leads still need to be investigated.
 
sfsuphysics said:
Yet someone comes into the neighborhood near the park and dumps a bunch of garbage because... "I'm too fucking lazy to call for the twice a year pick up of bulky items" or someone scopes out the neighborhood and breaks into cars, then they have no fucking clue who did it, and police rely on homeowners with security cameras of which none work really well showing plate numbers whether day or night.
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Dekoth-E- said:
You may have, I have not. I actively fight the tracking whenever I reasonably can. Just because it is getting harder and harder to avoid doesn't mean we have to accept it as ok.
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I am the guy who does not own a smart phone, or have any social media accounts, or has any type of home automation devices, who refuses to install Wndows 10, and so on, all because of the overtly manner in which all these things track us.

If anything, in my original statement, is false, I would be happy to retract it. I believe everything I stated is simply a fact. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant. It is the way it is today. It was my response to someone questioing if we are moving to being continously monitored. We, in fact, are there already.
 
Flatrock19 said:
They aren't tracking everyone on welfare. They are investigating cases where someone is expected of welfare fraud, and even then they appear to be mainly using it to track people down when they aren't located at where they claim to reside. It doesn't take the place of an investigation, it aids in an investigation. Instead of staking out suspects addresses, they can use the LPR data to see who frequents those locations. It generates leads on where the person might be living, but those leads still need to be investigated.
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Exactly. When you accept public money, you have to expect there will be some oversight. If there are any red flags that you might not be qualified to receive the assistance, then this seems like an efficient, effective way to investigate.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
While fraud is reportedly minimal in the welfare systems (and usually winds up being committed by vendors, not by recipients) whenever you have a large enough number of people involved in something, there will be some bad eggs.

I'm all for using whatever data is necessary to track down those committing fraud, but there really ought to be some sort of judicial review and warrant process. We have these checks and balances for a reason!
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A warrant to observe what vehicles come and go in a public place? A warrant to access data that was compiled regarding who cam and went in a public place?

I'm not saying that the government can't put restrictions on how such data is gathered and used, but you don't have a constitutional right to not have your license plate number recorded in public.

We have a constitutional right to be free from unreasonable searches by the government. Different people have different ideas of what is reasonable. If you have a reasonable expectation of privacy, then probable cause that a crime has been committed is required before a search can be performed. But if law enforcement can't even look at data gathered in a public place how would they gather evidence to show probable cause?
 
Unacceptable. Will use my Apple smartphone to access social media platforms like Facebook and Twitter to express outrage at the complete lack of regard for privacy. Will verify my concerns are legitimate via a Google search.
 
Flatrock19 said:
They aren't tracking everyone on welfare. They are investigating cases where someone is expected of welfare fraud, and even then they appear to be mainly using it to track people down when they aren't located at where they claim to reside. It doesn't take the place of an investigation, it aids in an investigation. Instead of staking out suspects addresses, they can use the LPR data to see who frequents those locations. It generates leads on where the person might be living, but those leads still need to be investigated.
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Then the state A.G's office should audit everything they did and DHA need not worry.
 
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