Sell me on windows 10....

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B00nie said:
Why would the telemetry data be encrypted if all it contained was some hardware statistics. And why would Microsoft do all it can to disable hacks that try to stop the telemetry.

Just smell the coffee already.
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Microsoft allows users to disable telemetry data in two ways: the configuration menu and the services manager. They could have locked down both.

Maybe the data is encrypted because - forgive me for I am about to blaspheme - the company doesn't want it's customer's data being compromised by a third party?

Just take off the tinfoil hat already.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
Microsoft allows users to disable telemetry data in two ways: the configuration menu and the services manager. They could have locked down both.

Maybe the data is encrypted because - forgive me for I am about to blaspheme - the company doesn't want it's customer's data being compromised by a third party?

Just take off the tinfoil hat already.
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If it's nothing important then why encrypt? From what I have read you can disable Jack sh*t and Jack left town. A lot of people use it because they have to, not by choice.
I have to use it since Linux won't run all my games. If it did, I would switch super fast!
 
Hagrid said:
If it's nothing important then why encrypt? From what I have read you can disable Jack sh*t and Jack left town. A lot of people use it because they have to, not by choice.
I have to use it since Linux won't run all my games. If it did, I would switch super fast!
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Some users will leave on the more personal data collection elements. Folks who use Cortana as a digital assistant, for example, will be sending tons of data to Microsoft; Cortana needs it to function in a helpful way. Would it be fair to the customer not to encrypt that data?

And yes, you can disable most of the data collection in Win10. I keep saying "all" in reference to the personally identifying stuff, but I need to cut that out.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
Some users will leave on the more personal data collection elements. Folks who use Cortana as a digital assistant, for example, will be sending tons of data to Microsoft; Cortana needs it to function in a helpful way. Would it be fair to the customer not to encrypt that data?

And yes, you can disable most of the data collection in Win10. I keep saying "all" in reference to the personally identifying stuff, but I need to cut that out.
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Has it been tested by a 3rd party on what they are collecting exactly?
 
Hagrid said:
Has it been tested by a 3rd party on what they are collecting exactly?
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That's what I've asked BulletDust earlier in this thread, as he seems certain that all Win10 installs collect personal data and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Frobozz posted that ZDNet article, which as I read it, states that Win10 might collect personal data on accident as part of a crash dump, but otherwise does not.

All this discussion has got me a lot more curious about this topic though. I wonder if anyone has successfully decrypted the telemetry data clientside to see what it is.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
That's what I've asked BulletDust earlier in this thread, as he seems certain that all Win10 installs collect personal data and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Frobozz posted that ZDNet article, which as I read it, states that Win10 might collect personal data on accident as part of a crash dump, but otherwise does not.

All this discussion has got me a lot more curious about this topic though. I wonder if anyone has successfully decrypted the telemetry data clientside to see what it is.
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On accident? haha.
So nobody knows for sure what is being stolen by this virus/feature/spyware/malware process.
 
So everyone here complaining about telemetry data..

What phone do you use?
Who is your ISP?
What radio stations do you listen to?
What streaming services do you use?
What bank do you do business with?
What credit cards do you have in your wallet?
What email provider do you use?
What search engine do you use?
What credit cards do you have in your wallet?
Where do you shop for groceries?
What discount clubs do you belong to for those grocery stores?
Who is your cellphone provider?
What public roads do you use?
What online stores do you use?
How do you keep the dozens of google bots that read every single word you have ever posted here, on this very forum, from collecting data?
How do you keep anything I listed above from collecting more than just usage details?

but.. but.. but.. mah privacy. Microsoft is the devil.
 
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AltTabbins said:
So everyone here complaining about telemetry data..

What phone do you use?
Who is your ISP?
What radio stations do you listen to?
What streaming services do you use?
What bank do you do business with?
What credit cards do you have in your wallet?
What email provider do you use?
What search engine do you use?
What credit cards do you have in your wallet?
Where do you shop for groceries?
What discount clubs do you belong to for those grocery stores?
Who is your cellphone provider?
What public roads do you use?
What online stores do you use?
How do you keep the dozens of google bots that read every single word you have ever posted here, on this very forum, from collecting data?
How do you keep anything I listed above from collecting more than just usage details?

but.. but.. but.. mah privacy. Microsoft is the devil.
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Same with a phone. You can either not use one or use it. Same as MS. I have 0 choice if I actually want to play my games. I have 0 choice on a phone unless I just don't use one.
It seems just because you pay for something, you do not own it.
 
AltTabbins said:
So everyone here complaining about telemetry data..

What phone do you use?
Who is your ISP?
What radio stations do you listen to?
What streaming services do you use?
What bank do you do business with?
What credit cards do you have in your wallet?
What email provider do you use?
What search engine do you use?
What credit cards do you have in your wallet?
Where do you shop for groceries?
What discount clubs do you belong to for those grocery stores?
Who is your cellphone provider?
What public roads do you use?
What online stores do you use?
How do you keep the dozens of google bots that read every single word you have ever posted here, on this very forum, from collecting data?
How do you keep anything I listed above from collecting more than just usage details?

but.. but.. but.. mah privacy. Microsoft is the devil.
Click to expand...
What phone do you use? Nexus 5X with Lineage OS without Google services using F-Droid open source repo for apps.
Who is your ISP? Charter, but irrelevant because I encrypt traffic using a VPN.
What radio stations do you listen to? Irrelevant because this is a one way transmit to an antenna, so they can't tell what I'm listening to.
What streaming services do you use? You got me on this one (Netflix and Amazon)
What bank do you do business with? Gonna treat this as rhetorical.
What credit cards do you have in your wallet? Same as with banking.
What email provider do you use? ProtonMail
What search engine do you use? Duckduckgo
Where do you shop for groceries? Aldi with no member card
What discount clubs do you belong to for those grocery stores? None
Who is your cellphone provider? Got me on this one too, although I do use my VPN if I'm doing anything potentially containing PII
What public roads do you use? Seriously?
What online stores do you use? You're right on this one as well.
How do you keep the dozens of google bots that read every single word you have ever posted here, on this very forum, from collecting data? Use Firefox with noscript. Doesn't stop everything, but it helps.

EDIT: The point isn't that we aren't "spied" on, but it's more about minimizing how much we are spied on. Obviously you can't avoid all of it without living off the grid and becomming a hermit, but you can choose options to mitigate the risk.
 
Hagrid said:
On accident? haha.
So nobody knows for sure what is being stolen by this virus/feature/spyware/malware process.
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Yes, on accident. Such as, if you had a document open with sensitive information in it, and the software crashed, that document may be sent as a part of the crash dump.

Why must the only reason for data collection be malicious intent? Doesn't every company have an incentive to improve their products?
 
VanGoghComplex said:
Yes, on accident. Such as, if you had a document open with sensitive information in it, and the software crashed, that document may be sent as a part of the crash dump.

Why must the only reason for data collection be malicious intent? Doesn't every company have an incentive to improve their products?
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Sending sensitive information? Is that HIPPA compliant? So your BTC wallet, SS, bank account information, etc, is no problem to be sending?
Patients location?

How about they test the stuff themselves? Leave the spyware out of their software. Oh wait, you can't, you do not own it.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
Yes, on accident. Such as, if you had a document open with sensitive information in it, and the software crashed, that document may be sent as a part of the crash dump.

Why must the only reason for data collection be malicious intent? Doesn't every company have an incentive to improve their products?
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Even with no malicious intent, there's still exposure and risk for the user. After the file leaves your system as a part of their quality improvement program, you have no idea where it's stored or who has access to it, how or if it's backed up to tape and stored for how long (even if unintentionally as part of some cloud VM backup policy)

The same type of scenario was talked about with Kaspersky recently on how they came into possession of classified documents. Heuristics detected a virus and slurped up a doc for further investigation. Russian political frenzy aside, it's the same scenario. (edit: this bit was something I heard through a podcast.. I could try to find a citation if it's really necessary. I don't think it should be though.)

edit2: I really don't want to be privacy preacher, but the exposure is something you (and users) should be aware of even on that list of common stuff posted above - credit cards, bike share, discount cards. You need to be aware of what's happening so that you can make an informed judgement on if you want to participate. Several of those I do participate in.
 
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Hagrid said:
Sending sensitive information? Is that HIPPA compliant? So your BTC wallet, SS, bank account information, etc, is no problem to be sending?
Patients location?

How about they test the stuff themselves? Leave the spyware out of their software. Oh wait, you can't, you do not own it.
Click to expand...
Again: that kind of personally identifying information isn't sent intentionally. My thinking is that the purpose for the encryption is to protect any such sensitive data that might but caught up in the rest of it. Granted, I don't seem to hate/fear/mistrust MS as much as some folks do, so I find that a bit easier to believe.

Microsoft's testing strategy is smart. An OS is not like other software. Just like game developers can't possibly test for all the potential hardware setups their games will run on, Microsoft can't possibly test for all the potential 3rd-party software that may be loaded on their systems out in the field. They do have a vested interest in the stability of their OS, though, so why not just have all the machines report issues they're seeing back to Microsoft HQ?
 
Frobozz said:
Even with no malicious intent, there's still exposure and risk for the user. After the file leaves your system as a part of their quality improvement program, you have no idea where it's stored or who has access to it, how or if it's backed up to tape and stored for how long (even if unintentionally as part of some cloud VM backup policy)

The same type of scenario was talked about with Kaspersky recently on how they came into possession of classified documents. Heuristics detected a virus and slurped up a doc for further investigation. Russian political frenzy aside, it's the same scenario. (edit: this bit was something I heard through a podcast.. I could try to find a citation if it's really necessary. I don't think it should be though.)
Click to expand...
That concern makes sense to me logistically, but not practically. The only way to be clear of any potential for mishandling of your data would be to live completely off grid.

Also, while you're correct, you can't deny that the go-to reason for anyone complaining about Windows' telemetry is the assumption that Microsoft is collecting data specifically to be evil with it. I mean, look at this thread. That's the assumption I can't get my head around.
 
  • What radio stations do you listen to? Irrelevant because this is a one way transmit to an antenna, so they can't tell what I'm listening to. - Not anymore. Digital signals can easily be tracked. Even analog signal usage is heavily tracked by ppm now.
  • What bank do you do business with? Gonna treat this as rhetorical. - Rhetorical but your bank is actually the biggest tracker of your spending habits. Go to your bank and ask for a breakdown of who they send statistics too.. not just generic telemetry either, I'm talking about data with your name on it.
  • What credit cards do you have in your wallet? Same as with banking. - See above.
  • Where do you shop for groceries? Aldi with no member card - You are still a statistic for them. They may not know your name but know that someone bought a dozen bananas, a box of Lucky Charms, and some bagels on x day at y time. Most grocery stores track where you spend the most time in the store, your movement, the paths you take to get to the things you buy, and where you are looking on the shelves.
  • What public roads do you use? Seriously? - Yup. I took a class in college that was basically a weekly lecture from someone in some tech business. The one that made the biggest impact on me was someone from the local department of transportation. Those cameras on top of stop lights aren't there just to see if there are cars waiting at the light. They collect a LOT of data on street usage, car branding, ratio of male to female drivers, even the most popular colors of what cars are on the road.
  • How do you keep the dozens of google bots that read every single word you have ever posted here, on this very forum, from collecting data? Use Firefox with noscript. Doesn't stop everything, but it helps. - Noscript is client side. Look at the list of users throughout the day and you will see a user called Googlebot. This user is for Google analytics and reads literally every single word that gets posted on this forum, and just about every other forum on the internet. Its Google so take a good guess at what's being collected and how its being used.

EDIT: The point isn't that we aren't "spied" on, but it's more about minimizing how much we are spied on. Obviously you can't avoid all of it without living off the grid and becomming a hermit, but you can choose options to mitigate the risk. -

Of all of these things listed, I think that the generic usage statistics that Microsoft collects is the least to worry about... but Microsoft gets blasted because of it anyways.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
That concern makes sense to me logistically, but not practically. The only way to be clear of any potential for mishandling of your data would be to live completely off grid.

Also, while you're correct, you can't deny that the go-to reason for anyone complaining about Windows' telemetry is the assumption that Microsoft is collecting data specifically to be evil with it. I mean, look at this thread. That's the assumption I can't get my head around.
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I don't view it as an all or nothing thing, but we can only control what we have control over. You don't have to be an open book and participate in every data gathering program, and conversely you don't have to grow a beard and move to the mountains. Use what's on your shoulders, evaluate the data, and live your life your way. :)

I'd also say that incompetent handling of data has done far more damage to people than intentional maliciousness. If Equifax can't handle that level of data with respect, then I'm not sure how guarded people would be of mass gathered files through telemetry under an ancillary program that isn't a core product.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
Oh, Bingbot is watching!?

*sprays whipped cream on nipples* Bingbot! *eats a strawberry* Bingbot, these strawberries are soooo good!
Click to expand...

I wonder if enough of us start talking about really messed up stuff if it will change the algorithm for the ads we get served here on the forum.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
The connected user experience client is one of the services that you can disable.
Click to expand...

You can disable a service called Connected User Experience, however whether that fully disables telemetry is anyones guess. Like B00nie, I'm tipping MS didn't go to all the trouble of adding full telemetry, encrypting it and making sure it's added to even the basic configuration just so it can be easily disabled.

As stated, any form of spying at OS level = Unacceptable. Especially where choice is taken away from the consumer, if Google search is spying on me, I have the option not to use Google's services.

Even my Android phone is not sending personal information at OS level, why anyone would be defending this behavior is simply beyond my comprehension.
 
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BulletDust said:
You can disable a service called Connected User Experience, however whether that fully disables telemetry is anyones guess. Like B00nie, I'm tipping MS didn't go to all the trouble of adding full telemetry, encrypting it and making sure it's added to even the basic configuration just so it can be easily disabled.

As stated, any form of spying at OS level = Unacceptable. Especially where choice is taken away from the consumer, if Google search is spying on me, I have the option not to use Google's services.

Even my Android phone is not sending personal information at OS level, why anyone would be defending this behavior is simply beyond my comprehension.
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And why you would consider it a given that the telemetry data sent contains personally identifying information is beyond mine. I can't fathom being so guarded all the time in a civilization dominated by tech and big data. It must be exhausting.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
And why you would consider it a given that the telemetry data sent contains personally identifying information is beyond mine. I can't fathom being so guarded all the time in a civilization dominated by tech and big data. It must be exhausting.
Click to expand...

Even at the basic setting, Connected User Experience is enabled - Obviously this is important metedata that MS are not interested in ignoring, the data is even encrypted on the local machine.

People claim there's nothing secretive about what MS are doing, if that's the case than why is my information encrypted on my machine before being sent to MS? Why can't I view what's being sent to MS?

You're clutching at straws, and you're failing. You failed to correctly read Frobozz's post and it's obvious that personal metadata is very important to MS. If keeping your PC usage private is important to you, than no matter what anyone claims about jumping through hoops toggling a ridiculous number of hidden and obscure radio switches or disabling services that are opt out as opposed to opt in, Windows 10 is an OS you want to avoid like the plague.

Running an alternate OS to avoid these issues is in no way exhausting, in fact it's quite refreshing.

It's that simple.
 
AltTabbins said:
  • What radio stations do you listen to? Irrelevant because this is a one way transmit to an antenna, so they can't tell what I'm listening to. - Not anymore. Digital signals can easily be tracked. Even analog signal usage is heavily tracked by ppm now.
  • What bank do you do business with? Gonna treat this as rhetorical. - Rhetorical but your bank is actually the biggest tracker of your spending habits. Go to your bank and ask for a breakdown of who they send statistics too.. not just generic telemetry either, I'm talking about data with your name on it.
  • What credit cards do you have in your wallet? Same as with banking. - See above.
  • Where do you shop for groceries? Aldi with no member card - You are still a statistic for them. They may not know your name but know that someone bought a dozen bananas, a box of Lucky Charms, and some bagels on x day at y time. Most grocery stores track where you spend the most time in the store, your movement, the paths you take to get to the things you buy, and where you are looking on the shelves.
  • What public roads do you use? Seriously? - Yup. I took a class in college that was basically a weekly lecture from someone in some tech business. The one that made the biggest impact on me was someone from the local department of transportation. Those cameras on top of stop lights aren't there just to see if there are cars waiting at the light. They collect a LOT of data on street usage, car branding, ratio of male to female drivers, even the most popular colors of what cars are on the road.
  • How do you keep the dozens of google bots that read every single word you have ever posted here, on this very forum, from collecting data? Use Firefox with noscript. Doesn't stop everything, but it helps. - Noscript is client side. Look at the list of users throughout the day and you will see a user called Googlebot. This user is for Google analytics and reads literally every single word that gets posted on this forum, and just about every other forum on the internet. Its Google so take a good guess at what's being collected and how its being used.
EDIT: The point isn't that we aren't "spied" on, but it's more about minimizing how much we are spied on. Obviously you can't avoid all of it without living off the grid and becomming a hermit, but you can choose options to mitigate the risk. -

Of all of these things listed, I think that the generic usage statistics that Microsoft collects is the least to worry about... but Microsoft gets blasted because of it anyways.
Click to expand...
So you are saying you know exactly what data MS is stealing? Please share?
 
BulletDust said:
Even at the basic setting, Connected User Experience is enabled - Obviously this is important metedata that MS are not interested in ignoring, the data is even encrypted on the local machine.

People claim there's nothing secretive about what MS are doing, if that's the case than why is my information encrypted on my machine before being sent to MS? Why can't I view what's being sent to MS?

You're clutching at straws, and you're failing. You failed to correctly read Frobozz's post and it's obvious that personal metadata is very important to MS. If keeping your PC usage private is important to you, than no matter what anyone claims about jumping through hoops toggling a ridiculous number of hidden and obscure radio switches or disabling services that are opt out as opposed to opt in, Windows 10 is an OS you want to avoid like the plague.

Running an alternate OS to avoid these issues is in no way exhausting, in fact it's quite refreshing.

It's that simple.
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Yes, I'm sure it will be very refreshing to not be able to play the games I want to play, and not be able to use the software I need to use to work from home.

If I'm grasping at straws, you are too. The telemetry data is encrypted. You're assuming, with no proof, that the telemetry data 1.) contains personally identifying information, 2.) cannot be prevented from containing personally identifying information, and 3.) is being collected by Microsoft to nefarious ends.

To be fair, I'm assuming, also with no proof, that the telemetry data 1.) does not contain personally identifying information collected intentionally, 2.) can be prevented from containing any personally identifying information, and 3.) is handled ethically upon receipt in the event that it does.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
Yes, I'm sure it will be very refreshing to not be able to play the games I want to play, and not be able to use the software I need to use to work from home.

If I'm grasping at straws, you are too. The telemetry data is encrypted. You're assuming, with no proof, that the telemetry data 1.) contains personally identifying information, 2.) cannot be prevented from containing personally identifying information, and 3.) is being collected by Microsoft to nefarious ends.

To be fair, I'm assuming, also with no proof, that the telemetry data 1.) does not contain personally identifying information collected intentionally, 2.) can be prevented from containing any personally identifying information, and 3.) is handled ethically upon receipt in the event that it does.
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You're as bad as Heatlesssun, you keep shifting the camera POV to focus on yourself - Issue is, we're not talking about you here.

There are a number of people that can switch away from Windows, play the games they enjoy depending on what those games are and do their work as normal - These people are the ones that an alternate OS is suited to. If you absolutely 'need' Windows to play your little games, stick to Windows and get pissed of at MS for taking away all of your options.

Once that personal data is out of your hands, you loose control of it. What's ethical is not even a consideration, it's what's accessible that's the consideration. If MS want my data, they can pay me for it.

[EDIT]

For the record, I play my games just fine under Linux, in fact the experience is surprisingly good and improving all the time.
 
BulletDust said:
[EDIT]

For the record, I play my games just fine under Linux, in fact the experience is surprisingly good and improving all the time.
Click to expand...

I wish this was the case for me. I like Linux. I have a dedicated laptop with Mint on it. I use centOS and Oracle Linux every day at work. I like the progress Linux has made they just need major title support for devs. Sometimes stuff works with wine, some times it doesn’t. The native stuff is good though. Maybe someday I can do a full switch. Until then it’s Windows or compromise.
 
AltTabbins said:
I wish this was the case for me. I like Linux. I have a dedicated laptop with Mint on it. I use centOS and Oracle Linux every day at work. I like the progress Linux has made they just need major title support for devs. Sometimes stuff works with wine, some times it doesn’t. The native stuff is good though. Maybe someday I can do a full switch. Until then it’s Windows or compromise.
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Likewise. It's pretty encouraging to see some of the bigger studios like Gearbox making Linux-native versions of their AAA titles, but there are still far too many franchises that I enjoy that are Windows only. If it ever gets to the point where it's worth it, I'll dual-boot my daily driver to play games on Linux and work in Windows. Linux is way better as a lightweight OS for games.
 
Hagrid said:
I have some ocean front property here in AZ I will sell for cheap!
Click to expand...

People can do research and see there is no ocean connected to AZ. When people ask for any kind of proof that Microsoft collects more than they openly admit to, those comments get ignored because nobody can find any.

The entire weight of the argument that Microsoft collects more than they openly state, is placed on a tinfoil hat.
 
AltTabbins said:
People can do research and see there is no ocean connected to AZ. When people ask for any kind of proof that Microsoft collects more than they openly admit to, those comments get ignored because nobody can find any.

The entire weight of the argument that Microsoft collects more than they openly state, is placed on a tinfoil hat.
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Yes, they can do research and see that. The same can not be said about MS. ;)
Of course, the government is 100% honest as well in your eyes? How about I believe it isn't true until they prove it?
 
Multi-desktop environment is god-like for multitasking and it's native on Windows 10.
 
Web4Life said:
Multi-desktop environment is god-like for multitasking and it's native on Windows 10.
Click to expand...

It's been native under Linux and OSX for longer, it's implementation under Linux is vastly better than Windows and slightly better than OSX.
 
BulletDust said:
It's been native under Linux and OSX for longer, it's implementation under Linux is vastly better than Windows and slightly better than OSX.
Click to expand...
I have to agree here. In linux in particular, multi-desktop is at least presented to you. In Windows 10 it's such an obscure feature that I always forget that it's even there. Much like another poster in this thread, I tend to use Windows 10 much in the same way that I've used Windows going back to 2000. There are a few things that I think Microsoft has done to make things better; Win + # being the best contribution I think they've ever made in UI design personally.
 
BulletDust said:
It's been native under Linux and OSX for longer, it's implementation under Linux is vastly better than Windows and slightly better than OSX.
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I think his implied point was that it's native under Windows 10, while it has to be added on via third party software on Windows 7.

Y'know. Since those are the only two operating systems OP talked about.
 
AltTabbins said:
People can do research and see there is no ocean connected to AZ. When people ask for any kind of proof that Microsoft collects more than they openly admit to, those comments get ignored because nobody can find any.

The entire weight of the argument that Microsoft collects more than they openly state, is placed on a tinfoil hat.
Click to expand...

Well duh, try to Google NSA projects. With your logic they don't exist because you can't find any proof of them. Yet Snowden found a few once the 'closed source and encrypted' information was revealed. Sound familiar?
 
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