Apple’s New MacBooks Officially A Flop, Windows PCs Take High-End Market Share

Apple also offers no touch screen interface for OSX. I think this is becoming more of a decision for people. I know a couple aspiring artists that chose the Surface over an Apple because of the touch screen.
 
NIZMOZ said:
You will regret it.

I had a SP4, and MS replaced it 4 times (I never sent them my original one in), because each time I got a replacement, it had issues that were worse than my battery life not lasting. I gave up on them completely. Apple makes high quality products, there is no doubt about it. And they have much better support than Microsoft.
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I passed on the Surface. Bought a Dell XPS 15, instead. It's as good as any MBP I've ever owned and the 4K touch screen is outstanding.
 
grtitan said:
You do know that apple uses the same pc parts as other manufacturers?

And working in IT doesn't mean much these days, given the incredible amount of incompetent techs that i had the displeasure of working with or train them.

Lastly, a 3 thousand computer that can run osx, will run Windows or linux faster.

And no, not an apple or ms fanboi, but those lies needs to stop.
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Again, I am well aware of that. Been in IT for 25 years. Mac uses the same parts but the O/S runs better on old hardware than Windows period.
 
heatlesssun said:
Just about anything with an SSD and 8 GB will run Windows 7 through 10 just fine. A system from 8 to 10 years ago that ran Windows 7 well should be able to 8 to 10 as well.
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I've tried it numerous times and it doesn't work that well. Especially when Windows 10 doesn't have good drivers for old hardware.
 
westrock2000 said:
Apple also offers no touch screen interface for OSX. I think this is becoming more of a decision for people. I know a couple aspiring artists that chose the Surface over an Apple because of the touch screen.
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Don't need it. I never use it on my XPS 13 that I have from work. I don't want fingerprints all over my screen. I wil buy a tablet if I want a touchscreen.
 
NIZMOZ said:
I've tried it numerous times and it doesn't work that well. Especially when Windows 10 doesn't have good drivers for old hardware.
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Drivers could be an issue but the level of performance of that hardware should be fine for Windows 10. I run 10 daily on lesser hardware with no problems.
 
heatlesssun said:
Drivers could be an issue but the level of performance of that hardware should be fine for Windows 10. I run 10 daily on lesser hardware with no problems.
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If that was the case, then why aren't there more old Windows machines than MAC machines? Because their performance suffers with newer O/S's. It's a known fact that people who own MACs keep them for a lot longer.
 
NIZMOZ said:
Again, I am well aware of that. Been in IT for 25 years. Mac uses the same parts but the O/S runs better on old hardware than Windows period.
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That tells me that you haven't seen that first hand.
NIZMOZ said:
If that was the case, then why aren't there more old Windows machines than MAC machines? Because their performance suffers with newer O/S's. It's a known fact that people who own MACs keep them for a lot longer.
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Because a lot of people have more brains than money and don't buy overpriced computers just because.

If you want to compare apples to apples, you need to look at expensive windows laptops.

Granted, an old windows install will slow down and not everyone knows how to reinstall the is, but if that is done or a clean install is done, the slowness won't be there.

That's why I doubt when people say I am an IT guy that they really know what they claim they do.
 
grtitan said:
That tells me that you haven't seen that first hand.


Because a lot of people have more brains than money and don't buy overpriced computers just because.

If you want to compare apples to apples, you need to look at expensive windows laptops.

Granted, an old windows install will slow down and not everyone knows how to reinstall the is, but if that is done or a clean install is done, the slowness won't be there.

That's why I doubt when people say I am an IT guy that they really know what they claim they do.
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Excuse me? I have probably seen it way more than you.

Sorry, there are many articles why out there. You just proved how much you don't have a clue about either side of the O/S. Right, like yourself.
 
NIZMOZ said:
If that was the case, then why aren't there more old Windows machines than MAC machines? Because their performance suffers with newer O/S's. It's a known fact that people who own MACs keep them for a lot longer.
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There are plenty of older Windows devices out there. But there are also a lot of older cheapo crap Windows devices out there that haven't aged well. Compare comparable hardware at comparable prices and I doubt that Macs have and significant longevity. And when if comes to older top line Windows, those things can have insane longevity especially in desktop form. I still have my old i7-980x rig that's 7 years old, the motherboard and 12 GB RAM are going on 8 years old. With just a modern GPU and SSD it's still a very capable gaming machine. And the thing was running with a big overclock for 6 years.

Yeah, older crappy hardware doesn't age well. Good older hardware can run great and even keep pace with modern software with disk and GPU upgrades.
 
westrock2000 said:
Apple also offers no touch screen interface for OSX. I think this is becoming more of a decision for people. I know a couple aspiring artists that chose the Surface over an Apple because of the touch screen.
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Touch on a laptop - or any vertical screen you're working at for hours - is a gimmick. The reason Apple avoids it is because the ergonomics aren't there. All you get is a tired arm.

Touch on Windows is pointless anyway since the apps aren't there, and the ones that are are terrible.

The issues causing the downturn in Apple laptop sales have nothing to do with presence or absence of touch. Most people buying surface pros aren't using the touch screen or tablet mode anyway - they're using it as a glorified ultraportable laptop. You'll never see a Surface Pro anywhere without the keyboard attached.
 
NIZMOZ said:
Excuse me? I have probably seen it way more than you.
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Doubt it, since i know by experience how much of a pig osx is compared to other os's.

Example, same mbp that your mother has runs like crap on osx, when using a spinning drive and 4gb. And as you said, runs great with ssd. Something tells me, you never used that mac with a regular drive.

NIZMOZ said:
Sorry, there are many articles why out there
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Ahhh, now i see, you read articles, never used one. Rest my case.
 
DPI said:
Touch on Windows is pointless anyway since the apps aren't there, and the ones that are are terrible.
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While the tablet app count of Windows is far behind iOS and Android, touch is far from pointless on Windows. Web browsing, Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, causal gaming, eBooks, audio books, media playback, Office, etc. all work very well with touch on Windows.
 
grtitan said:
Doubt it, since i know by experience how much of a pig osx is compared to other os's.

Example, same mbp that your mother has runs like crap on osx, when using a spinning drive and 4gb. And as you said, runs great with ssd. Something tells me, you never used that mac with a regular drive.



Ahhh, now i see, you read articles, never used one. Rest my case.
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That MAC had a regular drive in it for the first couple of years till SSDs went down in price. Then it got upgraded with the memory. Rest your case, you refuse to learn and think your opinion is fact.
 
heatlesssun said:
While the tablet app count of Windows is far behind iOS and Android, touch is far from pointless on Windows. Web browsing, Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, causal gaming, eBooks, audio books, media playback, Office, etc. all work very well with touch on Windows.
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They also work great on tablets. When I had my SP4, I rarely used it as tablet. It actually irritated me to use it as a tablet with the Windows interface than an iPad or Android tablet would. I eventually said forget it and used it as a laptop and eventually got rid of it. I think touch has it's place, but it's not on a Windows device, at least not yet.
 
I actually just bought a used 2012 Mac Mini Server (late 2012), i7 2.3ghz, upgraded the memory to 16gb, and installed an 850 Pro 250gb SSD in it. This thing flies around a lot of modern machines I have used.
 
NIZMOZ said:
They also work great on tablets. When I had my SP4, I rarely used it as tablet. It actually irritated me to use it as a tablet with the Windows interface than an iPad or Android tablet would. I eventually said forget it and used it as a laptop and eventually got rid of it. I think touch has it's place, but it's not on a Windows device, at least not yet.
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Not really how one gets annoyed using touch on Windows with Chrome (with is well touch enabled on Windows these days) or Netflix or Hulu or YouTube. The experience with touch, at least with decent apps on Windows where they exist, isn't really any different that iOS or Android.
 
NIZMOZ said:
I actually just bought a used 2012 Mac Mini Server (late 2012), i7 2.3ghz, upgraded the memory to 16gb, and installed an 850 Pro 250gb SSD in it. This thing flies around a lot of modern machines I have used.
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It's flies around of lot of modern machines because maybe those specs are better than a lot of modern machines? With the right video card in a Windows machine these specs will drive something as demanding as Vive and Rift VR.
 
heatlesssun said:
It's flies around of lot of modern machines because maybe those specs are better than a lot of modern machines? With the right video card in a Windows machine these specs will drive something as demanding as Vive and Rift VR.
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Well, reason I got it is I have seen the benchmarks on this machine, and it beats many of the newer processors in performance tests. I still have my new i7-7700k gaming system that I will just dedicate to gaming only (it heats this room up pretty fast), and use the MAC for daily stuff. I rather not burn all those watts for just browsing/emails/etc other than gaming and save it for the games.
 
NIZMOZ said:
think your opinion is fact.
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My EXPERIENCE s fact, not my opinion.

Same upgrade was done by me on my mac pro 4.1 and 5.1, same for multiple 2009-2011 MBP 13" and 15", but no, perhaps I read articles and I'm lying about it.
 
DPI said:
Touch on a laptop - or any vertical screen you're working at for hours - is a gimmick. The reason Apple avoids it is because the ergonomics aren't there. All you get is a tired arm.

Touch on Windows is pointless anyway since the apps aren't there, and the ones that are are terrible.

The issues causing the downturn in Apple laptop sales have nothing to do with presence or absence of touch. Most people buying surface pros aren't using the touch screen or tablet mode anyway - they're using it as a glorified ultraportable laptop. You'll never see a Surface Pro anywhere without the keyboard attached.
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Exactly how I've seen them to. No one even runs apps or touches their screen, nor do they seem to have any interest in it.

The other downside to touch screens are the following:
- Finger/arm blocks screen, mouse cursor is a much smaller foot print.
- In most instances a mouse is a lot more precise than a finger; a pen is needed for precision but that is yet another accessory - pen is best used for niche things like drawing but few have plans to draw on a tiny screen.
- Smudgy screen. Last thing I want if I were working with art is a nasty screen with finger prints on it.

Outside of a few niches, the lack of touch isn't hurting OSX.
 
NIZMOZ said:
Well, reason I got it is I have seen the benchmarks on this machine, and it beats many of the newer processors in performance tests. I still have my new i7-7700k gaming system that I will just dedicate to gaming only (it heats this room up pretty fast), and use the MAC for daily stuff. I rather not burn all those watts for just browsing/emails/etc other than gaming and save it for the games.
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I guess I was just at a loss with you describing a powerful machine beyond the specs of anything under $1k these days, at least on the mobile side, as being surprisingly powerful. I know all about burning watts, which is why I have Windows devices that consume from 3W to a 1kW. But the big power consumer has 5.1 surround, 4 monitors, 3D, VR and lots of fast storage and RAM. So sometimes if just fun to cut a butter with a hot knife.
 
Yeah, sure...

Unlike many Industry players, Apple actually reports sales numbers and revenues for the Mac unit:
https://arstechnica.com/apple/2017/...s-and-services-keep-apple-growing-in-q2-2017/
The Mac continues to do well—unit sales are up by 4.2 percent and revenue is up by 14.3 percent, suggesting that the more expensive MacBook Pros introduced in late 2016 are still selling fairly well. All the rest of the computers in the lineup are a year or more older at this point, but that doesn't seem to be damaging these numbers too much.
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So reality is pretty much the opposite, Mac sales and revenues at both up, largely attributable to the Model that "flopped".
 
Flogger23m said:
Exactly how I've seen them to. No one even runs apps or touches their screen, nor do they seem to have any interest in it.
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I really doubt that Windows 2 in 1s would be doing pretty well if this were the case. There's some binary thinking on this subject. That a device must always work with a mouse and keyboard and that such a device can't work equally well with touch at least in some situations. According to Stat Counter, Android is now the #1 OS used for web browsing, and it's safe to assume that virtually all Android users surfing the web are using touch exclusively to do so. Touch browsing works just as well with Windows and it works equally well with keyboard and mouse as it always has with Windows 10.

Of course that's due to Android phones and Windows phones failed, nonetheless, web browsing using touch with Windows works pretty much like Android. Using the desktop version of Chrome of all things.
 
DPI said:
Touch on a laptop - or any vertical screen you're working at for hours - is a gimmick. The reason Apple avoids it is because the ergonomics aren't there. All you get is a tired arm.

Touch on Windows is pointless anyway since the apps aren't there, and the ones that are are terrible.

The issues causing the downturn in Apple laptop sales have nothing to do with presence or absence of touch. Most people buying surface pros aren't using the touch screen or tablet mode anyway - they're using it as a glorified ultraportable laptop. You'll never see a Surface Pro anywhere without the keyboard attached.
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I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing.....gimicks are a great way to sell expensive things :cool:
 
westrock2000 said:
I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing.....gimicks are a great way to sell expensive things :cool:
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Being Apple branded is the ULTIMATE product gimmick ;)
I cite Apple's $800 billion market cap, and $billion level quarterly profits as proof.
 
westrock2000 said:
I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing.....gimicks are a great way to sell expensive things :cool:
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Sure, but there are a lot of Windows tablets and 2 in 1 devices that are far from expensive. Tablet form factors, touch and ink allow Windows devices to be used in common capacities without a mouse and keyboard. Why does anyone need a keyboard to do casually browse the web, listen to music or watch a movie?
 
grtitan said:
My EXPERIENCE s fact, not my opinion.

Same upgrade was done by me on my mac pro 4.1 and 5.1, same for multiple 2009-2011 MBP 13" and 15", but no, perhaps I read articles and I'm lying about it.
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Great, you just proved me right that you are a know it all. Don't bother replying as I won't even trust anything you say from this point forward. Your opinion does not make it a fact.
 
Snowdog said:
Yeah, sure...

Unlike many Industry players, Apple actually reports sales numbers and revenues for the Mac unit:
https://arstechnica.com/apple/2017/...s-and-services-keep-apple-growing-in-q2-2017/


So reality is pretty much the opposite, Mac sales and revenues at both up, largely attributable to the Model that "flopped".
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I wouldn't call it a flop, but one reason for increased revenue is because the damn things are 300 bucks more. Also plenty of apple lovers have expressed their disappointment with the new units.

NIZMOZ said:
Great, you just proved me right that you are a know it all. Don't bother replying as I won't even trust anything you say from this point forward. Your opinion does not make it a fact.
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You are officially on denial. Good day to you sir.
 
I've had a mac for work at my last several jobs and several personal boxes and took a pass on this latest release. As far as I can tell, the mac is the only 16:10 laptop out there. Wish there were more. Running Fusion, Linux in full retina resolution - is a sight to behold. 2880x1800 , with only a bit of tweaking to make it workable. I do like the trackpad. When spending a good chunk of my day on a Linux server, it makes for a very nice client. Most development software I used just worked Linux style too. Solid, without feeling like a brick.

From a game perspective, the graphics were dated. It ran mediocre compared to similar price point machines. The battery pack only lasts a few years when you travel like I do - having to actually use the battery and running it like a developer. With a 'pro' sized form factor, miss being able to swap in additional SSDs. Really dislike the fact that RAM was soldered as I tend to use a lot of memory - always could use more. (and why, for the love of $deity can it not support 32g) Why, oh why, remove the maglock power connector. That was one of the best laptop connectors made. (Not that any of the Apple cables actually hold up to normal wear and tear) My desk already looked like it was touched by His Noodlly Appendage, so dongles for my dongles... I can't say I have a single USB-C thumb drive. Whomever removed the escape key deserves a solid flogging. I swapped mine back for the previous model at work - it just was not a significant improvement for the pain. I'm skipping it until the next update at home. My Bride also skipped it and is sticking with her previous generation mac too - the SD card was a deal breaker for a photographer.

In its current form, it is not the premium machine it use to be - not that one could tell by looking at the price tag.
 
heatlesssun said:
Just about anything with an SSD and 8 GB will run Windows 7 through 10 just fine. A system from 8 to 10 years ago that ran Windows 7 well should be able to 8 to 10 as well.
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Exactly, i can throw an SSD into an Core 2 Duo rig with 8 gig of ram and for 99% of day to day users it will run fine and fast so YES you can do that with WIndows PCs. I am a windows guy and work in I.T as well and i know what works and doesn't well. ;)
 
MrGuvernment said:
Exactly, i can throw an SSD into an Core 2 Duo rig with 8 gig of ram and for 99% of day to day users it will run fine and fast so YES you can do that with WIndows PCs. I am a windows guy and work in I.T as well and i know what works and doesn't well. ;)
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Pretty obvious you haven't experienced them side by side like I have. Working vs working fast is different. OS-X feels like a modern machine on old hardware, where on Windows, it doesn't.
 
NIZMOZ said:
Pretty obvious you haven't experienced them side by side like I have. Working vs working fast is different. OS-X feels like a modern machine on old hardware, where on Windows, it doesn't.
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I'm just trying to envision a device with a 256 GB SSD and 8 GB of RAM that would'nt run Windows 10 well beyond a driver or some sort of compatibly issue. Any Core level CPU of the last decade couple with that kind of storage and RAM shouldn't have a problem running Windows 7 through 10 well.
 
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heatlesssun said:
I'm just trying to envision a device with a 256 GB SSD and 8 GB of RAM that would run Windows 10 well beyond a driver or some sort of compatibly issue. Any Core level CPU of the last decade couple with that kind of storage and RAM shouldn't have a problem running Windows 7 through 10 well.
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I have one better for you.

Last week, a new client called me to evaluate if his system can be upgraded or replaced.

Wont get into much details, but the system is a custom made PC with a Pentium 4 2.4 GH and 4 GB ram and a spinning HD!

The amazing this is, that even though it was running very slow, it was still usable. The most annoying slowness was actually waiting for programs to open and it wasn't that bad either.

Must admit, it really surprised me.

But yes, he is getting a new system.
 
NIZMOZ said:
MACs do last longer. The O/S just out performs Windows on older hardware. My Mom still has her 2009 Mac Mini, (with an SSD, and 8gb), it still is fast for what she needs and works great. Many users with old MBPs are in the same situation. You can't try that on a 8-10 year old Windows PC or it would be a crawl, or with unsupported hardware. I am a windows guy as I work in IT, but I know what works and what doesn't well.
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That might have been the case a decade ago, but not so much any more. I've got a 2011 mac mini and a 2010 MBP that I still use, but for comparison the workstation I built in 2011 (p9x79 WS and a i7 3930k with 32gb of ram) is just as relevant as either of those — haven't had any unsupported hardware and it still beats the hell out of the mac mini bought in the same year.
 
capt_cope said:
That might have been the case a decade ago, but not so much any more. I've got a 2011 mac mini and a 2010 MBP that I still use, but for comparison the workstation I built in 2011 (p9x79 WS and a i7 3930k with 32gb of ram) is just as relevant as either of those — haven't had any unsupported hardware and it still beats the hell out of the mac mini bought in the same year.
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I agree. Over the past 5 years many of the newer processor generations, there isn't much gap in performance between them. So it doesn't seem to be as noticeable as it was years ago.
 
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