Windows 8 To Go On Sale In October

SkribbelKat said:
Heatlesssun's Christmas will probably be in October of this year. :p :D

I'll be saving my pennies for something that has a nice dicking station if the Surface doesn't have the hardware to make me happy by then.
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Well played! :D

I'm temped on the Pro, but I think I'll pass and hold out for something with a bigger touchscreen & stylus.
 
nOrVow said:
Ubuntu to Windows 8 when I've thoroughly articulated that I don't give a shit about running Microsoft Software, including it's ecosystem. Mac OS X has a ton of features that are "supposedly" designed specifically for thier line of Macbook laptops - yet a lot of users are running Linux flawlessly on them without any complaints with multi-touch gestures and all of that jazz.
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I have no idea what you're rambling on about here. There's only one person spewing BS here.

nOrVow said:
He would probably blow his load when that happens. :p

C'mon Microsoft give me surface!! So I can happily slap Linux on there, and make better use of your hardware. :D
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You can go on and on about it with all the histrionics you want, the Surface Pro simply contains hardware that Windows 8 is specifically designed to use and will have a software library to utilize it, specifically the touch and pen digitizers at the heart.

Yes I know that there's some support for Linux for a lot of current Tablet PCs. I've played Linux a bit on Tablet PCs over the years but not recently. But the real problem is app support for pen and touch.

If you want a Surface Pro and you want to put Linux on it more power to you. It's that you'll be buying a lot of hardware that will never be well supported under Linux. A smart person would just run Linux under HyperV.
 
I was giving him a relative example to support what I'm saying. You can keep nitpicking my posts and make bullshit absolute predictions all you want... my motives are still sound for ME.

You can stop with BS now.
 
ArbY said:
Hey heatlesssun, what's the latest, flagship Windows 8 phone right now?

I have been locked onto the Samsung Galaxy S3, but if Windows 8 turns out to be a winning combination across the desktop, mobile, and tablet scene, I just may be convinced to ditch Android and the all the beauty of the S3.

Looking forward to Windows 8's release. My laptop is eligible for a free upgrade, and I could've sworn that I read in the News Section here a little ways back about Win 8 being $19.99. How practical it will be for a PC, without a Win8 phone or tablet, or touchscreen remains to be seen. I'll decide after it's released, unless heatless can convince me now. :)
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Yeah Windows 8 and Windows 8 Phone will be coming out around the same time. Not a lot of specifics are publicly know about the integration between Windows 8 and WP8 but it should be pretty good.

As for Windows 8 on desktops with keyboards and mice I only try to speak for myself and state my long term everyday experience with it considering the controversial nature of Windows 8 on conventional devices and all of the groundless accusations thrown around at people like me who've spent much more time using Windows 8 with keyboards and mice than bashing it.

If you're one that believes in the "purity" of a keyboard and mouse driven desktop and have little interest in tablets you may not like Windows 8 on conventional devices. I'd recommend you try out the Release Preview if possible or even checkout YouTube videos. There's a number of decent ones out there that don't get political and just explain the product.
 
nOrVow said:
Also, practice what you preach before delegating others to be logical. ;)
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I am. You keep saying I'm spreading BS. Please point out one specific thing that I've said in this thread that is BS. Not a whole litany of rambling, just one thing that I've said in this thread.

If I've said something that is in error, then I will stand corrected and admit it rather than rambling on and on and on about non-existent BS.
 
nOrVow said:
He would probably blow his load when that happens. :p

C'mon Microsoft give me surface!! So I can happily slap Linux on there, and make better use of your hardware. :D
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Ignoring all the vitriol in this thread, aren't Windows 8 devices supposed to use UEFI Secure Boot? Haven't been keeping up all too well, do we know if there's going to be a way to turn it off?
 
Yup! You can turn off manually within the BIOS. Red Hat/Canonical/Fedora team are in the works of developing their own keys to get signed over at verisign to pass Microsofts secure boot.
 
palaciav said:
Ignoring all the vitriol in this thread, aren't Windows 8 devices supposed to use UEFI Secure Boot? Haven't been keeping up all too well, do we know if there's going to be a way to turn it off?
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For x86 devices it's up to the OEM how they want to handle UEFI Secure Boot. UEFI is a requirement for Windows 8 but not secure boot I believe. For ARM devices UEFI Secure Boot is a requirement I think.
 
nOrVow said:
Did you even read the earlier posts? :rolleyes: You are just filled with Straws.

Not being able to run Microsoft software on the Surface Pro is of no concern to me when I only care about it's underlying hardware (because it's good) - I've stated this twice already. The extensions (the keyboard pad) are just trivial accessories to me. So your "functionality argument is meaningless. If you contend to regurgitate the bullshit spewing from heartlesessun then your stance isn't any different than the former, and should go do more research. You keep comparing Ubuntu to Windows 8 when I've thoroughly articulated that I don't give a shit about running Microsoft Software, including it's ecosystem. Mac OS X has a ton of features that are "supposedly" designed specifically for thier line of Macbook laptops - yet a lot of users are running Linux flawlessly on them without any complaints with multi-touch gestures and all of that jazz. What proposition do you hold of those two situations being any distinctive? They're able to run and use Linux on software agnostic hardware tagged with pretty little stickers and shrouded by PR bulllshit - while having good hardware. Yes, I said Apple makes good hardware (*grasp!!* paradox?)

I'm not going "hardcore" Linux on anyone or sticking my nose up in him. He displayed willful lack of knowledge and approached my consideration at a completely disrespectful and biased angle. I even, modestly, called myself a fanboy to neutralize his emotional need to insult but he chose to compound his ridiculous bullshit. Linux is HIGHLY portable as I've said, although he isn't wrong that it takes a lot of work for low-level portage of software - there are already a lot of people (w/ corporate backing) doing so... for the ARM architecture, but that was just another point I was trying to make for Surface (not Pro) obviously. You don't "see" the Logic in my motives simply because the Microshaft is too far up your ass. :p I'm hating either, I'm simply justifying my motives.

Why are you even mentioning Androids fragmentation? Or how you work with Linux? That has nothing to do with my issue here. I already said Unity has been optimized for touch damnit, so you don't need to engage in lecturing me on something I'm fully aware of.
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That was really hard for me to read. I don't care what you do with your device or what software you choose to run on it, I am also glad that you'll at least have the option to run linux. I just personally wouldn't make that decision and think it's quite silly.

I agree that Apple does make good hardware, some of the best, and I'm actually looking forward to picking up a MBA and putting Mint on it. That makes sense to me but putting Linux on a Windows 8 tablet for anything other than development doesn't seem to make any sense and until somebody releases a decent touch based shell my opinion will stay the same.

So let me ask you some questions which I don't think you've answered. Why are you so hell bent on running linux on this device? What are you going to gain from it, what is it going to offer you that it's native OS cannot?
 
heatlesssun said:
For x86 devices it's up to the OEM how they want to handle UEFI Secure Boot. UEFI is a requirement for Windows 8 but not secure boot I believe. For ARM devices UEFI Secure Boot is a requirement I think.
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Ok, good to know. I thought it was a requirement for all Windows 8 devices.

Also good to know Canonical and Fedora are in the process of getting keys signed, I'd heard about Red Hat previously.
 
TheBlueChanell said:
Why are you so hell bent on running linux on this device? What are you going to gain from it, what is it going to offer you that it's native OS cannot?
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Dude I have a lot of reasons for putting Linux on good hardware like the Surface Pro, and that's an entirely different argument altogether I won't get into. You think it's silly? That's fine, but I don't care. A lot of other people would disagree. Why would someone be hellbent on putting Linux on a MacBook Pro? It's subjective. I'm not going to engage in another stupid, everlasting Windows vs Linux debate either.

Let's be done here, shall we? ;)
 
nOrVow said:
Dude I have a lot of reasons for putting Linux on good hardware like the Surface Pro, and that's an entirely different argument altogether I won't get into. You think it's silly? That's fine, but I don't care. A lot of other people would disagree. Why would someone be hellbent on putting Linux on a MacBook Pro? It's subjective. I'm not going to engage in another stupid, everlasting Windows vs Linux debate either.

Let's be done here, shall we? ;)
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We can be done after one more little quip. :) Putting Linux on a MBA or MBP makes sense because most Linux distro's are made to be used with your standard kb/m/display setup. It naturally finds itself at home, I don't think that'll be the case with a Tablet. Just my .02 and you still never really answered my questions.
 
nOrVow said:
Dude I have a lot of reasons for putting Linux on good hardware like the Surface Pro, and that's an entirely different argument altogether I won't get into. You think it's silly? That's fine, but I don't care. A lot of other people would disagree. Why would someone be hellbent on putting Linux on a MacBook Pro? It's subjective. I'm not going to engage in another stupid, everlasting Windows vs Linux debate either.

Let's be done here, shall we? ;)
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Instead of answering the questions, you dodge them. Nice. I like your style.
 
TheBlueChanell said:
We can be done after one more little quip. :) Putting Linux on a MBA or MBP makes sense because most Linux distro's are made to be used with your standard kb/m/display setup. It naturally finds itself at home, I don't think that'll be the case with a Tablet. Just my .02 and you still never really answered my questions.
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On post #35 you didn't ask any questions initially, then in my post before this one I just told you why for post #53. So I don't know why this is a quip to you. I agreed with your laptop explanation. but what "feels" natural is subjective. If you said the same thing to hardcore Mac OS X users, they'd have the stance you're in right now against me.

Have a nice day. ;)

Eulogy said:
Instead of answering the questions, you dodge them. Nice. I like your style.
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I can do the same thing and question them for using Windows 8 on a tablet with software agnostic hardware. Without the Surfaces keyboard pad - it's no different than any other x86 based tablet. it's a pointless endeavor that would lead to a lot of subjective arguments.
 
TheBlueChanell said:
We can be done after one more little quip. :) Putting Linux on a MBA or MBP makes sense because most Linux distro's are made to be used with your standard kb/m/display setup. It naturally finds itself at home, I don't think that'll be the case with a Tablet. Just my .02 and you still never really answered my questions.
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Exactly. And here's the thing. I would no more recommend putting Windows 7 on a Surface Pro than I would Linux, at least not as the host OS. In a VM, sure, that's the kind of this Surface is about.

As much as people want to say that there's nothing unique about Windows 8, that it's all been done before, no, it hasn't. No one has attempted to put both a full desktop OS together with a tablet touch capable UI with an environment like Metro that does work with keyboards, mice, touch and pens. Windows 8 is a hybrid OS and the Surface Pro is a hybrid device that's capable of using all of Windows' primary input methods effectively in a broad manner. While such devices have existed for Windows since Windows XP Tablet PC Edition launched 10 years ago, their ability has been extremely limited with touch.

I've wiped Windows 7 from my Tablet PC devices, there's simply no point, at least in terms of utilizing the hardware well, to run Windows 7 on a touch capable Tablet PC unless someone simply doesn't care about touch in which case not sure why someone would have bought a touch capable device.
 
SkribbelKat said:
Skribbels everywhere recommend face-to-face meetings for asking legitimate questions if you wanna get legitimate answers. :)
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Awww shit, there's more of you/your kind? :p

I'm not so sure about upgrading my current computer to Windows 8 since my issues with the RP could be related to that damn Nvidia chipset I'm running but I will seriously consider a Surface Pro. Plus I'm not so crazy about the UI for desktop work. After using the RP as a daily driver, I'm annoyed at how often I have to change file handlers to keep shit from opening in Metro apps. After a while I'll have that all sorted out but it's just not something that I'm used to and frankly, I don't want to get used to it. If I'm at the desktop I want to stay there and gestures are not all that great with the mouse in my opinion, at least when I'm trekking across 30" of display.

I am excited to try out the Surface Pro with Windows 8 when it's released.

Anyhow, I thought this was a thread about Windows 8, how the fuck did Linux enter the discussion? Whatever happened to staying the fuck on topic? Linux is simply not relevant to the discussion.
 
heatlesssun said:
Exactly. And here's the thing. I would no more recommend putting Windows 7 on a Surface Pro than I would Linux, at least not as the host OS. In a VM, sure, that's the kind of this Surface is about.

As much as people want to say that there's nothing unique about Windows 8, that it's all been done before, no, it hasn't. No one has attempted to put both a full desktop OS together with a tablet touch capable UI with an environment like Metro that does work with keyboards, mice, touch and pens. Windows 8 is a hybrid OS and the Surface Pro is a hybrid device that's capable of using all of Windows' primary input methods effectively in a broad manner. While such devices have existed for Windows since Windows XP Tablet PC Edition launched 10 years ago, their ability has been extremely limited with touch.

I've wiped Windows 7 from my Tablet PC devices, there's simply no point, at least in terms of utilizing the hardware well, to run Windows 7 on a touch capable Tablet PC unless someone simply doesn't care about touch in which case not sure why someone would have bought a touch capable device.
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Right. I should of probably made my point more clear. I wasn't knocking the idea of running Linux on the tablet, I was knocking the idea of running a desktop OS on a tablet whether it's Insert X Linux Distro, XP/Win7 or even OSX.

I've used Windows 7 on a touch device and it's clunky, cumbersome and unintuitive. The same thing would apply to Debian, Fedora, Mint etc. The only thing that might be an exception would be Ubuntu and even then the only thing that would really work well is opening apps via Unity. Once you're in your app scrolling, enter text etc would all be just as cumbersome as a regular desktop OS.

If someone makes a touch centric Linux Distro, I'd be all over it and all for it.
 
tesfaye said:
Awww shit, there's more of you/your kind? :p
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Yup, and we're all huggers so meeting us in person is awkward! :p

tesfaye said:
Anyhow, I thought this was a thread about Windows 8, how the fuck did Linux enter the discussion? Whatever happened to staying the fuck on topic? Linux is simply not relevant to the discussion.
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Yeah, you're right...:( Poor Linux, left out in the "off topic" cold again.
 
TheBlueChanell said:
Right. I should of probably made my point more clear. I wasn't knocking the idea of running Linux on the tablet, I was knocking the idea of running a desktop OS on a tablet whether it's Insert X Linux Distro, XP/Win7 or even OSX.

I've used Windows 7 on a touch device and it's clunky, cumbersome and unintuitive. The same thing would apply to Debian, Fedora, Mint etc. The only thing that might be an exception would be Ubuntu and even then the only thing that would really work well is opening apps via Unity. Once you're in your app scrolling, enter text etc would all be just as cumbersome as a regular desktop OS.

If someone makes a touch centric Linux Distro, I'd be all over it and all for it.
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That's an interesting point and I've thought of it the same way.

- Unity is a desktop-first oriented interface that's capable of working on touchscreens while win8 Metro is quite obviously a tablet-first interface that's glued on the desktop OS.

I do think that Unity suits the desktop far better than does Metro -- a few billion times better in fact. Unity and Ubuntu wouldn't be as great on a tablet, though. With a keyboard and a track pad I'd much rather prefer Unity over Metro...
 
pelo said:
I do think that Unity suits the desktop far better than does Metro -- a few billion times better in fact. Unity and Ubuntu wouldn't be as great on a tablet, though. With a keyboard and a track pad I'd much rather prefer Unity over Metro...
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Fair enough, I'm not going to argue Metro's suitability with keyboards and mice here anymore, but a device like the Surface Pro running Windows 8 is meant to work well with keyboards, mice, touch and pen and is meant to be able to not only switch between these input methods quickly but to be able use them simultaneously.

Now not all applications are designed or written properly to do this well, but Metro apps in general work FAR better with keyboards and mice than desktop apps with touch. But there's nothing stopping a developer from writing a desktop app that can't work well with touch, indeed the support for such things has been there for many years and there a few apps that do take advantage of it, like the Angry Bird games and Office 2013 is supposed to be an example of good hybrid input on the productivity side, guess well see when it comes out.
 
SkribbelKat said:
Yup, and we're all huggers so meeting us in person is awkward! :p
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Well it could be worse, you could have said you all were nudist huggers.

SkribbelKat said:
Yeah, you're right...:( Poor Linux, left out in the "off topic" cold again.
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Or maybe not, the cold is the right climate for penguins, right? ;)

pelo said:
- Unity is a desktop-first oriented interface that's capable of working on touchscreens while win8 Metro is quite obviously a tablet-first interface that's glued on the desktop OS.
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You're aware that the ARM version lacks a desktop right? So, Metro isn't glued to the desktop. The x86 version includes a desktop to run desktop apps, it's not there to support the Metro interface.
 
heatlesssun said:
Fair enough, I'm not going to argue Metro's suitability with keyboards and mice here anymore, but a device like the Surface Pro running Windows 8 is meant to work well with keyboards, mice, touch and pen and is meant to be able to not only switch between these input methods quickly but to be able use them simultaneously.

Now not all applications are designed or written properly to do this well, but Metro apps in general work FAR better with keyboards and mice than desktop apps with touch. But there's nothing stopping a developer from writing a desktop app that can't work well with touch, indeed the support for such things has been there for many years and there a few apps that do take advantage of it, like the Angry Bird games and Office 2013 is supposed to be an example of good hybrid input on the productivity side, guess well see when it comes out.
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You're right and I get that. The problem is that the Surface Pro comes with both a keyboard and a trackpad along with a small screen therefore Metro should be the more suitable interface rather than the desktop.

For a device that's meant to be used primarily with a touch-based input it makes a lot of sense. Make it more touch friendly and also support the trackpad (or mouse) and keyboard as a secondary option. If you prefer the trackpad/mouse and keyboard over the touch interface though... well, I'm not so sure anymore.

There's quite clearly a deviation by MS here and I think it's exemplified by comparing Unity and Metro. Metro first and foremost is a tablet friendly interface based on touch that doesn't offer anything attractive on the desktop (when I say tablets I also mean phones. We can't forget that MS/Nokia thing). Unity OTOH is desktop first, tablet with some tablet friendliness.Both are "hybrid" interfaces but where MS aimed at mobile while retaining as much desktop friendliness as they thought possible, Unity aims at the desktop and attempts to work its way down.
 
tesfaye said:
Well it could be worse, you could have said you all were nudist huggers.

Or maybe not, the cold is the right climate for penguins, right? ;)
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:eek: No nudists here! That's not decent! And I guess you have a point about the penguins. They do seem to like cold weather.

christianw said:
reading this thread is like watching old people screw
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Ew, what are you doing in your spare time over there?
 
pelo said:
Metro first and foremost is a tablet friendly interface based on touch that doesn't offer anything attractive on the desktop (when I say tablets I also mean phones.
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To say that Metro offers nothing attractive to the desktop with the thousands and thousands of apps on the way is simply something no one can say with any authority at this time. Indeed, with the sheer amount of stuff on the way, brand new stuff that people have never seen before on PCs, I think a lot of people will be attracted to it simply because it so fresh and new looking for the PC, even with desktops and keyboards and mice.
 
heatlesssun said:
To say that Metro offers nothing attractive to the desktop with the thousands and thousands of apps on the way is simply something no one can say with any authority at this time. Indeed, with the sheer amount of stuff on the way, brand new stuff that people have never seen before on PCs, I think a lot of people will be attracted to it simply because it so fresh and new looking for the PC, even with desktops and keyboards and mice.
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I don't doubt it'll offer phone/tablet apps that people would love on the desktop as well. The trouble comes when trying to run two at a time or switch between desktop and Metro. It still isn't suited for multi-tasking like your typical desktop interface. If it can't multi-task effectively do you think people will really rave about Metro? I'm not sure how you use your PC, but I'm relatively certain it isn't in a fullscreen fashion with only a single application running at once.

As far as I'm concerned, winRT will be DOA because of no legacy support and a stranded ARM ISA and Metro is a nonstarter on the desktop.
 
I only recently switched to 7 about a month ago... and then switched to Linux. :D I will be sticking with 7 as my gaming OS, and Linux for everything else.
 
pelo said:
I don't doubt it'll offer phone/tablet apps that people would love on the desktop as well. The trouble comes when trying to run two at a time or switch between desktop and Metro. It still isn't suited for multi-tasking like your typical desktop interface. If it can't multi-task effectively do you think people will really rave about Metro? I'm not sure how you use your PC, but I'm relatively certain it isn't in a fullscreen fashion with only a single application running at once.

As far as I'm concerned, winRT will be DOA because of no legacy support and a stranded ARM ISA and Metro is a nonstarter on the desktop.
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I'm not convinced Metro will be a massive win (there's too many platforms already).

I think winRT is not a bad idea, allot of home users & students (we're the wrong demographic here) could dump x86 and be quite happy. Plus it comes with office and it should be more hardened than normal versions of windows. Business is a different story, there's just too much legacy LOB software out there to move any time soon.
 
I don't see the point in metro, what's wrong with having traditional applications? Why have two different app platforms on the same device? The traditional system is better, anyone can code an app, make it available through their own way, and anyone can download or buy it. Metro, like the Apple app store, is restricted to what THEY approve. Why should I be restricted in what I can code or install on a device that I own? It's all greed. They want full control of the apps and they want a cut from the sales. It's BS if you ask me. At least I'm assuming MS will do the same as Apple in this regard.
 
pelo said:
It still isn't suited for multi-tasking like your typical desktop interface. If it can't multi-task effectively do you think people will really rave about Metro?
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While you have a point the thing is in all the years that I've seen people use a computer, the vast, overwhelming, majority of the time by far most people have on program running full screen at a time. Yes, Metro needs to be improved in this area but at the same time I don't think that it's deal that technical people make it out to be. Indeed for the kinds of things that Metro is suited for, games, video playback, media apps, etc., are not the kinds of things that people multi-task a lot will anyway.
 
Wiseguy2001 said:
I'm not convinced Metro will be a massive win (there's too many platforms already).
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And just how many non-phone platforms are bigger than Windows? This is a brand new platform, wide open and it will be large. even if Windows 8 is another Vista.
 
Red Squirrel said:
I don't see the point in metro, what's wrong with having traditional applications? Why have two different app platforms on the same device? The traditional system is better, anyone can code an app, make it available through their own way, and anyone can download or buy it. Metro, like the Apple app store, is restricted to what THEY approve. Why should I be restricted in what I can code or install on a device that I own? It's all greed. They want full control of the apps and they want a cut from the sales. It's BS if you ask me. At least I'm assuming MS will do the same as Apple in this regard.
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Openess is great but at the same time how big of a selling point is that? The #1 company in the world is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of openess. And what if any and everyone could just make and download apps for Windows 8? The ensuing shitstorm of fucked up apps and malware would simply crush Windows 8 before it had a chance.
 
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