W8 RTM Build Announcement Reportedly Coming in July

Cmdrmonkey said:
Or Microsoft has surrounded itself with "Yes" men, and is completely out of touch with what normal people want.
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We'll see when it hits the market, won't we? But I highly doubt it. Unless they somehow garnered all these yes men in the time after Windows 7 launched and now. Mostly what I see is Windows 8 doesn't do what I want it to do so it sucks for everyone and they have no clue what their market wants. Or I am a computer shop owner with 200, 2000, 20,000 customers and using that huge sample size I know what the average joe wants. (there are millions of windows users.)

But we will see. Knowing MS's history I don't expect Windows 8 to really shine until SP1. Then you also have this amazing situation that if you have windows 7 and like it, you DONT HAVE TO UPGRADE. Amazing right? Personally I like windows 8 but I don't see myself upgrading my desktop to it for a year or so post-release.
 
GotNoRice said:
The "external feedback system" (internet) has spoken and there is a consensus - Windows 8 and Metro sucks.
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A very small number of people in relation to the total number of people who will use Windows 8 users have been vocal about a change they don't like. I don't believe that feedback system would necessarily have it all figured out. This external feedback system didn't seem to get it right with the ribbon in Office.
 
XamediX said:
Mostly what I see is Windows 8 doesn't do what I want it to do so it sucks for everyone and they have no clue what their market wants. Or I am a computer shop owner with 200, 2000, 20,000 customers and using that huge sample size I know what the average joe wants. (there are millions of windows users.)
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Compared to automatically discounting the opinion of anyone who has actually used Windows 8 at this point and instead latching onto the fantasy that tons of novice users are going to magically embrace it?

Microsoft's Internal feedback also showed that people LOVED windows phone 7. :rolleyes:
 
heatlesssun said:
Thanks for the lead in.;)

Yeah I know, Fisher-Price, it sucks

I understand that many feel that Metro is being forced,

desktops and tablets are completely separate things.

if Metro were an option that everything would be great

consumers would buy Windows 8 in droves because it worked just like Windows 7

turning off Metro make Windows 8 attractive to consumers.
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QFT :D

tesfaye said:
They added some nifty features that caught my attention: mounting ISOs is possible, Flash and PDF support (with full indexing) is also included and I really like the new task manager.
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All of the programs to add those features are either free or can be bought for much less than the price of this OS. The taskmanager isn't really better, it has a terrible overbright pastel color scheme and still doesn't include obvious things like GPU usage. :(

SkribbelKat said:
Everything new has a learning curve. I remember fumbling around in Vista like an absolute idiot for a couple weeks until I got passably okay at finding my way around. A more significant change might require more significant investments in learning.
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I thought you were one of the 3 Linux users!?! :p

GotNoRice said:
Microsoft could have taken the same route, and made their Tablet OS an extension of Windows Phone... but no one gives a shit about Windows Phone. So instead they take the only thing they have left that people care about it (desktop OS) and try to make it more like their failed windows phone OS so they can backdoor more people into using that terrible interface.
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Windows 8 is just a big obvious attempt to use their dominance of the OS market to push windows 8 mobile devices and their "metro" junk platform, which serves the same purpose of all the other mobile platforms just with a thousanth of the user base.

There isn't really much incentive to make a metro application for a 2% cut of the mobile market and a single OS which doesn't look like it will have much of a following, over making a desktop windows application for 1000s of times the userbase and then just making it for Android. People can argue "but it also works on my desktops!!!" but it doesn't in the real world, if an application needs the power of a desktop, its not going to work on a phone, if it's made for a phone it's going to be unoptimized for a desktop, or is something a web browser can do. There is no catch all scenario.

All the little annoyances like OS DLC (for things like DVD playback) is a pain in the ass and makes the product more and more useless, and has practices that shouldn't be encouraged.
 
heatlesssun said:
A very small number of people in relation to the total number of people who will use Windows 8 users have been vocal about a change they don't like.
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A very large number of people in relation to the total number of people who do use Windows 8 have been vocal about a change they don't like.
 
GotNoRice said:
Compared to automatically discounting the opinion of anyone who has actually used Windows 8 at this point and instead latching onto the fantasy that tons of novice users are going to magically embrace it?

Microsoft's Internal feedback also showed that people LOVED windows phone 7. :rolleyes:
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No I am automatically discounting the idea that your opinion is the majority one with nothing quantitative to back it. And Windows Phone 7 was good. I among others just love their Android devices more. Zune was also a great music player but it was cooler to own an iPod even though the devices were arguably equal as an overall product.
 
maboblivion said:
w8 > vista on this here laptop i am using. It'll do just fine!
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I'm not interested in how well Windows 8 compares to Vista.
These are the questions in which I'm interested:

How well does the user interface of Windows 8 compare to the user interface of Windows 7 on a desktop that uses a keyboard & mouse?
If I much prefer the type of user interface that Windows 7 used, can I switch back to it on Windows 8?
Are the user interface changes forced down my throat? or is the user interface in Windows 8 completely customizable?
Is Windows 8 better suited for multimedia entertainment than Windows 7?
How does the DPC latency of Windows 8 compare to that of Windows 7?
How well does Windows 8 compare to Ubuntu 12.04?
How well does Windows 8 compare to OS X: Mountain Lion?
How does the battery life of a laptop running Windows 8 compare to one running OS X: Mountain Lion on identical hardware?
Is the file system that Windows 8 uses the same as Windows 7 or is it better?
How does NTFS compare to ZFS?
If NTFS was not designed to ensure data integrity and protect against silent data corruption, why wasn't something better designed & implemented by now?
 
XamediX said:
And Windows Phone 7 was good. I among others just love their Android devices more. Zune was also a great music player but it was cooler to own an iPod even though the devices were arguably equal as an overall product.
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This is all the same reasons why people are just going to keep buying Android and iOS tablets. It doesn't matter if it's "good" or "equal". You actually need to make people WANT to use it.
 
GotNoRice said:
A very large number of people in relation to the total number of people who do use Windows 8 have been vocal about a change they don't like.
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We really don't know how many people are using Windows 8 currently. And I really doubt the people that hate it so much have used it much beyond a few days if that or have used in on a tablet or other touch capable hardware.
 
GotNoRice said:
This is all the same reasons why people are just going to keep buying Android and iOS tablets. It doesn't matter if it's "good" or "equal". You actually need to make people WANT to use it.
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Surface Pro makes me want to use it. That will be my last tablet purchase. I currently have a Galaxy Tab 10.1 but I do not own a working laptop. The Surface Pro will do nicely in my case. But yea, we'll see how it does, although I was speaking more to the desktop aspect.
 
Cmdrmonkey said:
Take the ribbon for instance, I have yet to meet a person in the real world who doesn't hate it and long for Office 2003 with its drop down menus with words. Yet, Microsoft seems to think people love the ribbon, and now they're making it an integral part of their OS.
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amen.


I'm not sure what I hate about office more... the dumb ribbon or the inability to have two seperate powerpoint windows open at the same time. I WISH we could go back to 2003 here :(

I really don't know what the hell their UI designers were thinking.
 
DeathPrincess said:
I thought you were one of the 3 Linux users!?! :p
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Well yes, but I think that there's a place for a commerical OS that costs money as well. The world of IT are like a shed filled with garden tools. When I go inside, I pick whatever I think is going to be the best tool for the thing I want to do without worrying so much about loyalties to one side or another.

I only make stupid inflammatory comments to stir up trouble because it's fun. :D
 
dr.stevil said:
amen.


I'm not sure what I hate about office more... the dumb ribbon or the inability to have two seperate powerpoint windows open at the same time. I WISH we could go back to 2003 here :(

I really don't know what the hell their UI designers were thinking.
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Not sure what you mean here, you can open up multiple instances of PowerPoint 2010.
 
Cmdrmonkey said:
Take the ribbon for instance, I have yet to meet a person in the real world who doesn't hate it and long for Office 2003 with its drop down menus with words. Yet, Microsoft seems to think people love the ribbon, and now they're making it an integral part of their OS.
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Serious? The majority of people I know like the ribbon and prefer it now. At first, it was a pain in the ass, but now it's a great interface tool. End users and developers seem to like it for the most part. There is the minority that don't, and they are very vocal about it.
 
Ur_Mom said:
Serious? The majority of people I know like the ribbon and prefer it now. At first, it was a pain in the ass, but now it's a great interface tool. End users and developers seem to like it for the most part. There is the minority that don't, and they are very vocal about it.
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Hi mom! I do miss the Office 2003 interface (once I turn off personalized menus), but the ribbon is pretty intuitive so I haven't got anything against it either. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.
 
heatlesssun said:
Not sure what you mean here, you can open up multiple instances of PowerPoint 2010.
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2007 was limited to a single instance at a time (don't ask me why, thats the ONLY office application that has that limitation).

There was a work around where you could setup a second user account and have the second instance launch under the other account, but it wasn't very practical.

Serious? The majority of people I know like the ribbon and prefer it now. At first, it was a pain in the ass, but now it's a great interface tool. End users and developers seem to like it for the most part. There is the minority that don't, and they are very vocal about it.
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I'm sure some people do like it, but not a single person I work with has anything good to say about it. It's all personal preference, but I really wish they gave users a choice which UI they'd like to use. It takes me much longer (on average) to accomplish a task with the ribbon (in most cases) because I can never seem to find what I'm looking for.

If it's not broken, why fix it? it makes no real sense to me
 
Ur_Mom said:
It's one of those things like driving a manual transmission for so long then going to an automatic. You're still looking for that thing that isn't there. For most, it does make it easier, it's just the transition that is hard.
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That's a rather fitting analogy too, since us motorsport enthusiasts know manual transmissions are better and still buy cars with sticks. ;)
 
Every time a new Windows or Microsoft software release is on the way, [H] frontpage news turns into the biggest bunch of whiners I've ever seen. If you don't like a new software that is coming out, either learn it and adapt or don't use it.

I can't believe people are still whining about the ribbon interface.
 
Ur_Mom said:
Serious? The majority of people I know like the ribbon and prefer it now. At first, it was a pain in the ass, but now it's a great interface tool. End users and developers seem to like it for the most part. There is the minority that don't, and they are very vocal about it.
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I think that's the thing about all of this. The UI sucks! No it doesn't! Duck season, rabbit season, fire! There's just not as many absolutes on this as people make out. Some people will like anything, some people will hate anything. the important thing is can people figure it out and it be usable to the point where you just forget about it.
 
heatlesssun said:
I think that's the thing about all of this. The UI sucks! No it doesn't! Duck season, rabbit season, fire! There's just not as many absolutes on this as people make out. Some people will like anything, some people will hate anything. the important thing is can people figure it out and it be usable to the point where you just forget about it.
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rabbitduck1.jpg


Perhaps a picture will help?
 
heatlesssun said:
I think that's the thing about all of this. The UI sucks! No it doesn't! Duck season, rabbit season, fire! There's just not as many absolutes on this as people make out. Some people will like anything, some people will hate anything. the important thing is can people figure it out and it be usable to the point where you just forget about it.
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I agree. It's not as black and white or 1's and 0's as people think. I like Windows 8 overall but I still feel there is a disconnect between the Desktop app and the Metro interface. But it'll all get ironed out with SP1. The magical SP1 that fixes all things software. :)

dr.stevil said:
If it's not broken, why fix it? it makes no real sense to me
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Be careful, that's an easy way to stay stagnant. And staying stagnant is just as bad for a company as a bad strategy.

SkribbelKat said:
I only make stupid inflammatory comments to stir up trouble because it's fun. :D
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Be careful man, there's a thin line between that and a Troll. :cool:
 
SkribbelKat said:
I'm sure there are far, far worse offenders than me in this forum.
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Of course, I'm just telling you like Obi Wan Kenobi(sic?) told Anakin(sic?) in his teenage years to just be careful. And you see what happened to him. :D
 
XamediX said:
Be careful, that's an easy way to stay stagnant. And staying stagnant is just as bad for a company as a bad strategy.
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I don't disagree, but change just for the sake of change is rarely a good design decision.

It's even worse that ONLY MS products (and not even all of them) are using it. So products from the thousands of 3rd party developers and publishers are still using the classic style menus opposed to the ribon system... forcing users to constantly bounce back and forth between the two.

Like I said, I don't really care that they wanted to try something different, but they should of given users the option.
 
XamediX said:
I agree. It's not as black and white or 1's and 0's as people think. I like Windows 8 overall but I still feel there is a disconnect between the Desktop app and the Metro interface. But it'll all get ironed out with SP1. The magical SP1 that fixes all things software. :)
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There is a disconnect and that's by design. If you want to bring the desktop to tablets I think it helps. Microsoft does have experience in putting Windows on tablets and the issue with that is not only the OS shell, it's also the apps and most desktop apps simply aren't finger friendly. That said some can work ok with touch and for all of prior Tablet PC UI misgivings the notion of having a full desktop OS on a tablet does have appeal and uses but having Metro will bring real tablet and touch apps as well.

I have thought a lot about how Metro and the desktop fit together and I guess they don't visually but at the same time I don't really know what the true impact of that is beyond the visuals. But Microsoft is doing work to flatten the desktop and make it more consistent with Metro by removing Aero.
 
XamediX said:
Of course, I'm just telling you like Obi Wan Kenobi(sic?) told Anakin(sic?) in his teenage years to just be careful. And you see what happened to him. :D
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*evil grin* Perhaps it's already too late for me. Though, as long as my laptop doesn't burst into a blob of lava, I think I'll be okay.
 
dr.stevil said:
I don't disagree, but change just for the sake of change is rarely a good design decision.

It's even worse that ONLY MS products (and not even all of them) are using it. So products from the thousands of 3rd party developers and publishers are still using the classic style menus opposed to the ribon system... forcing users to constantly bounce back and forth between the two.

Like I said, I don't really care that they wanted to try something different, but they should of given users the option.
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Actually the ribbon is in a number of products these days. Options are great but I'm not a fan of options that radically change the appearance of something especially when that something is to keep it just like it is. I'm not saying that that's always a bad thing but it leads to infinite legacy syndrome. If you always have to keep supporting the old way then over time you just end up with a jumble of stuff and everyone will want it their way.
 
heatlesssun said:
There is a disconnect and that's by design. If you want to bring the desktop to tablets I think it helps. Microsoft does have experience in putting Windows on tablets and the issue with that is not only the OS shell, it's also the apps and most desktop apps simply aren't finger friendly. That said some can work ok with touch and for all of prior Tablet PC UI misgivings the notion of having a full desktop OS on a tablet does have appeal and uses but having Metro will bring real tablet and touch apps as well.

I have thought a lot about how Metro and the desktop fit together and I guess they don't visually but at the same time I don't really know what the true impact of that is beyond the visuals. But Microsoft is doing work to flatten the desktop and make it more consistent with Metro by removing Aero.
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I do agree with that, I just think the application still needs something to tie em together better. Thing is, I don't know what that something is. But I have faith it'll get worked out one way or another. It certainly isn't a deal breaker.

SkribbelKat said:
*evil grin* Perhaps it's already too late for me. Though, as long as my laptop doesn't burst into a blob of lava, I think I'll be okay.
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Haha, you are on a roll today eh?
 
InorganicMatter said:
That's a rather fitting analogy too, since us motorsport enthusiasts know manual transmissions are better and still buy cars with sticks. ;)
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Well.... I agree there. But, for the majority of women drivers, manual isn't an option. But, for some (Asians) driving at all isn't that easy... :p (Kidding, BTW.)
 
FoxhoundOp said:
I can't believe people are still whining about the ribbon interface.
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Honestly, until a few years ago people were still bitching about not using the CLI. The end of 'real' DOS in Windows caused a lot of screaming and bitching.
 
maxius said:
Will windows 8 be a bigger fail than windows me on the desktop? anyone placing bets?
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Windows 8 would have to be broken out of the box to fail harder than Windows ME.

Cmdrmonkey said:
I share your sentiments, with the exception of some of the doom and gloom as Microsoft has survived OS failures in the past. The problem is that they're trying to ram a desktop OS into mobile devices, which has never worked. It's like they learned nothing from iOS and Android. You need a custom OS designed from the ground up for mobile devices.
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Are you okay with Android being based off of Linux?

SkribbelKat said:
A very vocal element is making quite a few waves about the interface changes. Microsoft isn't ignoring those outcries, but they are working on an interface they feel will work for the "silent majority" of computer users.

If you poke in at the dev blogs for Windows 8, they explain in vague terms how their feedback system collects metrics from opt-in users and how the interpert the feedback. As far as I've read, every design change they've implement has taken into consideration measured user interaction from a large number of customers and the overall goal of building a touch-friendly GUI. They're betting the proverbial farm on this release and we won't know how it will be accepted by the masses until it goes on sale, but I don't think they're taking any risks without being confidant that there will be a reward in the form of profits at the other end.
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The naysayers don't care what the actual developers of the OS have to say, unfortunately.

DeathPrincess said:
All of the programs to add those features are either free or can be bought for much less than the price of this OS. The taskmanager isn't really better, it has a terrible overbright pastel color scheme and still doesn't include obvious things like GPU usage. :(
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Here's the thing, I didn't have to download and install anything to do the things I needed to do within the first few minutes of loading the OS on my computer. Visiting a flash site didn't require me to go through the Flash installation process ( a nice surprise), I needed to install Office 2010 from an ISO and I was able to do that without going through the installation process for Daemon Tools which I own licenses for. It will still get installed but it was nice to not have to install it. Opening a PDF manual didn't require a trip to Adobe or some other third party for an app. It was convenient for me and that's the whole point. The task manager gave me a better view of what was going on without having to make a trip to Resource Manager (which is still there thank goodness). It's a nice summary and is pretty convenient. GPU usage is not obvious, the average user is not sitting around on Facebook wondering what his/her GPU is doing.

DeathPrincess said:
Windows 8 is just a big obvious attempt to use their dominance of the OS market to push windows 8 mobile devices and their "metro" junk platform, which serves the same purpose of all the other mobile platforms just with a thousanth of the user base.

There isn't really much incentive to make a metro application for a 2% cut of the mobile market and a single OS which doesn't look like it will have much of a following, over making a desktop windows application for 1000s of times the userbase and then just making it for Android. People can argue "but it also works on my desktops!!!" but it doesn't in the real world, if an application needs the power of a desktop, its not going to work on a phone, if it's made for a phone it's going to be unoptimized for a desktop, or is something a web browser can do. There is no catch all scenario.
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Using their dominance of the DESKTOP OS market to push a mobile OS? That doesn't make any sense. Using their massive financial resources to fund a push into the mobile market would be more accurate. I guess you would feel better if Microsoft just quit trying to compete.

DeathPrincess said:
All the little annoyances like OS DLC (for things like DVD playback) is a pain in the ass and makes the product more and more useless, and has practices that shouldn't be encouraged.
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You seriously consider this to be that big of an issue?

Real annoyances for me right now is being dropped into a Metro app when I open a media file from the desktop and then being dropped back into Metro instead of the desktop when I close the app. That is annoying, but I haven't had the time to look into the possibility of modifying that behavior.

I haven't been driven to the point of "nerd rage" but I can certainly see some aspects of the "Go Metro or go home" mentality of Windows 8 that would drive some people bonkers. However, in general I find Windows 8 to be a pretty snappy OS and I still get my work done using it. I'm going to install a Windows 8 desktop as my daily driver at work to see if my current opinion of the OS still stands. I spend far more time on my work computer than I do at home.
 
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