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LCD,LED screens 'burn" my eyes! What is the solution?
- Thread starter CANTUSELCDLED
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CANTUSELCDLED
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CANTUSELCDLED
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Nice find man,i hope soon we shell see those 250hz monitors in the market and i hope that is the solution
I will search more about that hp ips model
p.s.should it not be "240" hz?
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elvn
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There are several issues on displays that people can become hypersensitive to, not limited to LCD/TFT. DLP rainbows/trails, CRT refresh rate flicker, and LCD blurring, backlight strobing. If I start being very acute about my vision I can see lcd image transitions on most tv's I watch, and all LCDs blur pretty bad on fast FoV movement. If I relax and try not to notice it I can usually ignore it after awhile and then I don't notice it conciously much anymore.
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With most displays I've used, there has been an adjustment period for my eyes/brain over some time. So I agree with the poster who made the "changing to contacts and adjusting" or "new glasses" comparison, at least in my case. Sometimes you can train your eyes. This applies to different ppi and different viewing distances too (adjustment period). LED backlights also benefit from being set at a considerable brightness vs the backlight frequency, so I keep mine up at 3/4 and use room lighting to keep the lcd from seeming too bright.
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With most displays I've used, there has been an adjustment period for my eyes/brain over some time. So I agree with the poster who made the "changing to contacts and adjusting" or "new glasses" comparison, at least in my case. Sometimes you can train your eyes. This applies to different ppi and different viewing distances too (adjustment period). LED backlights also benefit from being set at a considerable brightness vs the backlight frequency, so I keep mine up at 3/4 and use room lighting to keep the lcd from seeming too bright.
CANTUSELCDLED
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Noup, adjusting this aint a solution in my case.
read my first post,i dont have some small eye strain when using lcd,led screens
GreenMonkey
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I could see a lot of DLP rainbows on the 2x wheel on my Infocus X1...but only with bright white on black scenes.
I agree with finding yourself a good used CRT. I love my Sony FW900 but I do not know if you can find one over there. Some people actually get more eyestrain from LCDs - a small minority, but the exist.
elvn
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I understand if that doesn't apply to you, and sorry if its not a solution for you - but I thought I'd mention it as far as the discussion goes for anyone else reading. I wish you luck.
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. I did have an adjustment period on my LED backlit screen and its ppi, my eyes now look at it differently or have learned it somehow. Its hard to explain.
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.I also have a FW900 crt and when I switch between lcd and it on the fly, my eyes change focus.. which was again something I had to adjust to. I don't have it hooked up at the moment but I've been considering adding it to my array again.
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Another option you could at least investigate is using a smaller plasma screen? I always rule them out due to heat, that many have a "whine" noise, and they require some maintenance/window-washing apps vs image retention... and hypothetically can still suffer burn in or at least are recomended against huds and static images over many hourse straight. I'm curious if they would help vs your issue though, even though they are backlit they are phosphor based displays so it might resolve differently, and their quotes are "600hz".
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. I did have an adjustment period on my LED backlit screen and its ppi, my eyes now look at it differently or have learned it somehow. Its hard to explain.
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.I also have a FW900 crt and when I switch between lcd and it on the fly, my eyes change focus.. which was again something I had to adjust to. I don't have it hooked up at the moment but I've been considering adding it to my array again.
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Another option you could at least investigate is using a smaller plasma screen? I always rule them out due to heat, that many have a "whine" noise, and they require some maintenance/window-washing apps vs image retention... and hypothetically can still suffer burn in or at least are recomended against huds and static images over many hourse straight. I'm curious if they would help vs your issue though, even though they are backlit they are phosphor based displays so it might resolve differently, and their quotes are "600hz".
CANTUSELCDLED
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Plasma screens are very expensive and in my country you cant just return it,also I dont think that is real 600hz but still thanks for suggesting that option
I wonder if someone finds projector easier on the eyes
i see there are new ones with led technology so you dont need to change the light source so often
could that be better? who knows
i will have to search for some crt monitor to have me a backup
CANTUSELCDLED
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Man,here is hard to find anything
elvn
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yeah thats why I put 600hz in quotes.
According to this article:
Sub Field Drive – Plasma Panel Basics
"A Plasma panel display has near instantaneous response times on the order of 2 milliseconds. What this implies is that a plasma TV subpixel is only alight for a fraction of a second. Typically, most conventional Plasma TVs display video at 60fps (research has shown that the human eye cannot tell any significant difference in motion and smoothness of videos at higher frame rates). This implies that each frame has to be displayed for 1/60 or 17ms. However, the sub pixels of a plasma TV stay alight only for around 2ms when excited. Thus, to display a single frame for 1/60 seconds, the plasma panel excites the sub-pixels in pulses so as to keep all the pixels “bright” so that they can continuously display the desired frame.
Thus, for example, a 60Hz plasma panel can have 10 pulses per frame, to display the image. Effectively, the screen is being refreshed 60Hz times 10 pulses/frame which gives us a value of 600Hz. This is what Plasma manufacturers refer to as the Sub field drive refresh rate. If the Plasma panel performs 8 pulses per frame, it gives a sub field drive refresh rate of 480Hz. Now when the displayed frame has to be changed to the next frame, the ultra-fast response times of the Plasma TV sub pixels enables an almost instantaneous transition to the next frame.
As a result, even though only 60 frames are displayed per second by the Plasma TV, the near instantaneous transition between frames drastically minimizes motion blur and image ghosting. While the subfield drive terminology is a bit misleading as each frame is not being updated 600 times a second, it still portrays the inherent advantage of Plasma TVs when it comes to fast moving content due to its near instantaneous pixel response times."
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So its another display tech that may or may not be easier on your eyes.
According to this article:
Sub Field Drive – Plasma Panel Basics
"A Plasma panel display has near instantaneous response times on the order of 2 milliseconds. What this implies is that a plasma TV subpixel is only alight for a fraction of a second. Typically, most conventional Plasma TVs display video at 60fps (research has shown that the human eye cannot tell any significant difference in motion and smoothness of videos at higher frame rates). This implies that each frame has to be displayed for 1/60 or 17ms. However, the sub pixels of a plasma TV stay alight only for around 2ms when excited. Thus, to display a single frame for 1/60 seconds, the plasma panel excites the sub-pixels in pulses so as to keep all the pixels “bright” so that they can continuously display the desired frame.
Thus, for example, a 60Hz plasma panel can have 10 pulses per frame, to display the image. Effectively, the screen is being refreshed 60Hz times 10 pulses/frame which gives us a value of 600Hz. This is what Plasma manufacturers refer to as the Sub field drive refresh rate. If the Plasma panel performs 8 pulses per frame, it gives a sub field drive refresh rate of 480Hz. Now when the displayed frame has to be changed to the next frame, the ultra-fast response times of the Plasma TV sub pixels enables an almost instantaneous transition to the next frame.
As a result, even though only 60 frames are displayed per second by the Plasma TV, the near instantaneous transition between frames drastically minimizes motion blur and image ghosting. While the subfield drive terminology is a bit misleading as each frame is not being updated 600 times a second, it still portrays the inherent advantage of Plasma TVs when it comes to fast moving content due to its near instantaneous pixel response times."
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So its another display tech that may or may not be easier on your eyes.
hey, but what about the bit depth (6 bit vs 8 bit), might sound a little odd to bring that into discussion, but i remember that i read once an article about the eyestrain and i think there was mentioned something about the temporal dithering what is used by 6 bit panels.
think about it, temporal dithering works by making pixels flash between 2 colors to create illusion of a 3 rd color, anything what flashes causes eyestrain, so actually maybe theres some truth in this theory.
tho i cant back up, nor i cant find that article.
maybe someone brainier could enlighten us on that subject.
think about it, temporal dithering works by making pixels flash between 2 colors to create illusion of a 3 rd color, anything what flashes causes eyestrain, so actually maybe theres some truth in this theory.
tho i cant back up, nor i cant find that article.
maybe someone brainier could enlighten us on that subject.
CANTUSELCDLED
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yes i know about that too,so you have flickering from the screen trying to trick you to see some color it cant show,that is why i though real IPS screens would be good for my eyes
but they are expensive and i cant test them
Maybe s-IPS screen with 120hz would be the best solution
You don't need 120Hz on LCD for anything other than games and to avoid 3:2 pulldown on 24Hz movies.
as for PWM flickering I'm not too sure it can cause eye strain. Best monitor to date in regard of lack of eye strain I ever tested is Dell U2410. It's 8bit H-IPS with WCG-CCFL and DO flicker
Other good monitors like F2380 flickered too. I didn't saw flickering from my A-MVA LED monitor but couldn't use it at >150cd/m2 even though flickering (WCG-)CCFL is fine for me even at 300cd/m2...
so I'd suggest U2410 or similar monitor like Asus PA246Q.
Pricey but well worth it imho. AdobeRGB mode can also come in handy. Many content look so much better using it instead sRGB as it overcompensate for lack of contrast compared to CRT
as for PWM flickering I'm not too sure it can cause eye strain. Best monitor to date in regard of lack of eye strain I ever tested is Dell U2410. It's 8bit H-IPS with WCG-CCFL and DO flicker
Other good monitors like F2380 flickered too. I didn't saw flickering from my A-MVA LED monitor but couldn't use it at >150cd/m2 even though flickering (WCG-)CCFL is fine for me even at 300cd/m2...so I'd suggest U2410 or similar monitor like Asus PA246Q.
Pricey but well worth it imho. AdobeRGB mode can also come in handy. Many content look so much better using it instead sRGB as it overcompensate for lack of contrast compared to CRT
Ok, maybe the irritation can also be caused by the spectrum being discrete, i.e. light created by red, green and blue phosphors - but only if the peak doesn't match the response of the cone cells in your eyes.
Depending on the exact phosphor type used in the CCFL (there are different types than can be used), the magnitude and bandwidth of each color is affected.
Filament/incandescent light sources are continuous and generally contain less "blue" (light of short wavelengths).
If that is the case LEDs would be slightly better, but not that much.
Then again, it was just a thought... i don't know
It only looks good/correct using the intended profile... The latter doesn't make sense. The contrast of an image when viewed on any CRT greatly depends on the content, while it is fixed on an LCD (below 2% pixel-pixel cross-talk). So in some cases a CRT is better (for images containing more black) and in some other cases it is weaker (mixed images) - and yes of course some CRTs are better than other CRTs, and some LCDs are better than other LCDs
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Acer_Sheep
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I had similar problem, seems after years it is quite better. To minimize discomfort, lower your brightness and contrast. Do frequent breaks during computer use and have a light turned on or lamp behind the screen when working in night. Sole screen light in dark is bad. Also maybe its colors are irritating try to mix your system appearance and monitor's settings.
CANTUSELCDLED
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You don't need 120Hz on LCD for anything other than games and to avoid 3:2 pulldown on 24Hz movies.
as for PWM flickering I'm not too sure it can cause eye strain. Best monitor to date in regard of lack of eye strain I ever tested is Dell U2410. It's 8bit H-IPS with WCG-CCFL and DO flicker
so I'd suggest U2410 or similar monitor like Asus PA246Q.
Pricey but well worth it imho. AdobeRGB mode can also come in handy. Many content look so much better using it instead sRGB as it overcompensate for lack of contrast compared to CRT
I see thta last one is P-IPS panel type,that better then s,h IPS panels?
About 120hz,the more the merrier(i think that is the right expression)
It sure want hurt if it has higher hz,and i mean true 120hz monitors
Also "eye strain' is not the right expression in my case
When you read a lot,you get eye strain,when I watch LCD,LED screens my eyes start to burn and then pain comes,headache
tried LED(TN PANEL) does not help
Break,ambient light,settings..I have tried it all,it does not help
If i were to use LCD,LED screens for years i would go blind,dont get this the wrong way but i dont think you had the same or "similar" problem
i guess for you it was eye strain like when you read a book
still thanks for the suggestions
what don't make sense even more is assuming everything is sRGB...
and let me guess, you use gamma 2.2?
CRT have it where it matters, LCD dont...The contrast of an image when viewed on any CRT greatly depends on the content, while it is fixed on an LCD (below 2% pixel-pixel cross-talk). So in some cases a CRT is better (for images containing more black) and in some other cases it is weaker (mixed images) - and yes of course some CRTs are better than other CRTs, and some LCDs are better than other LCDs
daveswantek
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That is acute eyestrain. I am extreamly near sighted, and have worked with a lot of low vision specialists on this issue, because I suffer from it myself. What you describe is acute eyestrain. It can get crazy painful.
P. S. We are trying to help, so do not take what is said here the wrong way.
Sorry, something was completely missing from my reply. It must have slipped completely (overwritten), when I wrote that.what don't make sense even more is assuming everything is sRGB...
and let me guess, you use gamma 2.2?
But true - It was not that I was disagreeing with that part - it was just to clearly state to only use wide gamut monitors, when they should be applied. And to stay with a native sRGB screen, if one wants to stay with sRGB content rather than emulate a smaller color space on a monitor with a large native color space. I.e. one should clearly evaluate their usage pattern before going for a wide gamut (lcd) display.
And no, my display is hardware calibrated to sRGB (native sRGB monitor) - fine for 99% of my work.
With regards to CR when implementing color space emulations, you're right. I should probably have read the last sentence more carefully.
nobody_here
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you should definitely get an eye transplant
Dude, seriously. Go see an eye care professional and see if you have something wrong. At the very least, he will probably know better what to suggest to you as far as monitors than we will, since we cannot check your vision, nor do we (likely) have the expertise to accurately diagnose what is causing your problems. Your eyes are clearly NOT fine since you are having problems with them.
You have basically shot down any and all suggestions in this thread without reason or consideration, except for the suggestions on what new monitor to buy. If you want to make a thread about buying a new monitor, then make one. Don't make a thread about eye strain and then dismiss out of hand all the honest advice people try to give to you.
You have basically shot down any and all suggestions in this thread without reason or consideration, except for the suggestions on what new monitor to buy. If you want to make a thread about buying a new monitor, then make one. Don't make a thread about eye strain and then dismiss out of hand all the honest advice people try to give to you.
Acer_Sheep
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http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1382656
Read my own thread about the same problem here, if there is really something I can suggest you is accept it as allergy(yes eyes also can suffer from allergy) and continue to using your CRT, or if you are afraid it will be gone soon, buy one preventively so you have a backup. Currently I can use LCD screen, it just became a less problem for me. I don't know how old are you but in late adolesnce or early adulthood significant changes are happening in eyes, continue to use CRT for couple more years than try LCD again.
You should also think if your lifestyle is ok, if you drink and eat well, if you sleep enough, if you work on your computer under stress which greatly contributes to the eye strain and so on.
CANTUSELCDLED
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Too much deus ex for you9i hope at least first one,DE revolution is a joke)
My eyes are not the problem,it is the technology,I was not born to look at LCD,LED screens
I have perfect vision,when i am not using LCD,LED screens i have no problems with my eyes so the cause of the problem is very obvious
And a doctor suggesting me what monitor to use? They know about this as much as I know about nuclear physics (probably even less)
Thanks,
but basically nothing new,this post does sound to have a good point
" Sounds like you need to try a high quality LCD panel (if you have access to one that is.)
And to those that say there is no refresh: There still is. It's just not the same as a CRT. LCD's dont have the scanner going accross the screen like CRT does so you dont have that effect of eye strain but the image itself is still only updated 60 times per second on 60hz LCD's (typically what most are). Combine that esspeically with office lighting (which ive never found an office with proper lighting) and this can cause major eye strain. "
Also you can accept is as allergy but that does not change nothing.The fact is,you are not sick,it is still something caused by the technology.
Acer_Sheep
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You don't need to be sick in strict sense but you are also a living organism which is just a system which is only compatible with limited amount of things. Some people are also allergic to some things and then they have to avoid them. It's either flickering or dot pitch of monitor's grid is causing you problems, doesn't matter you wont change that by your will. So it is important to accept the condition you are in and live with it.
Also don't avoid to go to eye care professional and tell about problems you having, you maybe need glasses or something, maybe there really is something wrong with your eyes, they wont tell you what kind of screen you need, but to exclude problem with them. LCD screen has a greatly sharper image with most things in picture are in high contrast transitions so it does strain the eyes more than a CRT but you are oversensitive so it is triggering a pain and irritation in you.
And image on LCD is not redrawn 60 times per second as on CRT, LCD is static and only places when change is needed are changed. To not confuse it with CRT displaying system, the cathode lamps or LEDs behind the panel flicker, not the panel itself(it is not a source of light)
Also don't avoid to go to eye care professional and tell about problems you having, you maybe need glasses or something, maybe there really is something wrong with your eyes, they wont tell you what kind of screen you need, but to exclude problem with them. LCD screen has a greatly sharper image with most things in picture are in high contrast transitions so it does strain the eyes more than a CRT but you are oversensitive so it is triggering a pain and irritation in you.
And image on LCD is not redrawn 60 times per second as on CRT, LCD is static and only places when change is needed are changed. To not confuse it with CRT displaying system, the cathode lamps or LEDs behind the panel flicker, not the panel itself(it is not a source of light)
CANTUSELCDLED
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I am not sick in any sense,but yes my eyes are not compatible with the product someone made,in this case it is the LCD,LED screens.
Ophthalmologist are not very educated about this problems and I dont need glasses,eye drops or some other so called solution.
Like i said,i have perfect vision and no problems with my eyes when i am not using an LCD,LED screens.
Only ones who should go to the ophthalmologist are the manufacturers them self to see if they can make a better product
Also about 60hz i will copy an answer from your thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bun-Bun View Post
And to those that say there is no refresh: There still is. It's just not the same as a CRT. LCD's dont have the scanner going accross the screen like CRT does so you dont have that effect of eye strain but the image itself is still only updated 60 times per second on 60hz LCD's (typically what most are). Combine that esspeically with office lighting (which ive never found an office with proper lighting) and this can cause major eye strain.
quote
Refresh rate is the number of times in a second that display hardware draws the data it's being given. The fact that the monitor is given 60 images per second that doesn't mean that it actually displays or updates the image 60 times per second. When no changes are made to the images being sent then nothing on the LCD display changes - no matter if you have 60 Hz, 75Hz or 120Hz or even 1 Hz.... It's hard to imagine a flickery light would resonate with something thats static.
In other words, an LCD has a 'dynamic' refresh rate if you will.
quote
How often do you stare at a screen that is not updating anything?
Dont get me wrong,it is nice that you want to help but you dont seem to understund that my eyes dont need "fixing",the monitor technology does
quantum112
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In that case you know what to do. LCD tech isn't gonna change any time soon - you are the one who will have to adapt. Buy more CRT's. Use them. LCD is not going to be around forever, probably another 4 years at max - something better will come along.
I hope you did not buy one just because of the "lower radiation", CRT radiation is so exaggerated that people who are afraid of it probably shouldn't go outside: See this chart.
If you are happy with the image quality of your CRT, then stick with it, sell the LCD, buy more backup CRT's. It's the only thing you can do, really.
I hope you did not buy one just because of the "lower radiation", CRT radiation is so exaggerated that people who are afraid of it probably shouldn't go outside: See this chart.
If you are happy with the image quality of your CRT, then stick with it, sell the LCD, buy more backup CRT's. It's the only thing you can do, really.
If one kind of LCD bothers you that much, it is probably not the the technology for you. Everyone is different-I guess I would agree with the above poster and suggest you stockpile a few good CRT monitors. That's what I do. The downside is the bulky size and small screen, but that is the compromise.
I also have a projector I use frequently, which I find to be very comfortable to look at. I have heard that our eyes tolerate reflected light more than emitted light. Not sure if that is true though.
I also have a projector I use frequently, which I find to be very comfortable to look at. I have heard that our eyes tolerate reflected light more than emitted light. Not sure if that is true though.
CANTUSELCDLED
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My response was deleted,i dont know why,maybe because of the link
It was because of not using eng. only
the link is http://www.ivonazivkovic.net/
check it out
but about that chart,you can read there that "cell phones do not cause cancer' and that is not true.They do cause cancer so that whole chart means nothing
What kind of projector? what projector exactly? I was thinking the same thing
reflected light=easier for the eyes
have you tried some IPS screens or those LCD with 120 hz?
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When I first bought my LG 55LHX and turned it on, I watched TV for about 10 minutes before I realized my retinas was frying inside my brain. LED are crazy bright, Just think about looking into an LED flashlight when you look away you're going to see yellow dots everywhere. Anyways, I started to feel sick and even felt like puking. I turned off the new $2000 TV and wondered what the hell was going on. I tried again later and the same problem all over again, I had the TV professionally calibrated and all my issues was fixed. I no longer feel sick when watching my TV.
CANTUSELCDLED
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When I first bought my LG 55LHX and turned it on, I watched TV for about 10 minutes before I realized my retinas was frying inside my brain. LED are crazy bright, Just think about looking into an LED flashlight when you look away you're going to see yellow dots everywhere. Anyways, I started to feel sick and even felt like puking. I turned off the new $2000 TV and wondered what the hell was going on. I tried again later and the same problem all over again, I had the TV professionally calibrated and all my issues was fixed. I no longer feel sick when watching my TV.
I am glad it solved your problem man
daveswantek
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Exactly; this is a problem that has to be managed, because there is no magic cure/bullet to solve it.
CANTUSELCDLED
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World? In my book LCD,LED screens dont=world
and you two seem to be upset,what is the problem?
quantum112
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What is there to "learn" about looking at LCD's?
You can either sustain to view the displayed image on them for an extended period of time, or you cannot.
I'd draw parallels with lactose-tolerant and intolerant people.
He happens to be in the intolerant group, therefore, these displays are obviously not for him, in which case, there is absolutely no compelling reason for him to endure the suffering that they cause him.
If you have tried all of the proposed solutions, and come to the conclusion that it does not help you, your problem is obviously related to a design characteristic of LCD screens.
What exactly is he supposed to do about that? Build his own?
Sell it, use something else.
You can either sustain to view the displayed image on them for an extended period of time, or you cannot.
I'd draw parallels with lactose-tolerant and intolerant people.
He happens to be in the intolerant group, therefore, these displays are obviously not for him, in which case, there is absolutely no compelling reason for him to endure the suffering that they cause him.
If you have tried all of the proposed solutions, and come to the conclusion that it does not help you, your problem is obviously related to a design characteristic of LCD screens.
What exactly is he supposed to do about that? Build his own?
Sell it, use something else.
CANTUSELCDLED
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LG
E2250V-PN LED (with all brightens settings and dvi,hdmi and analog connection)
21"
I have tried two more standard LCD screens,acer and samsung but i dont remenber the model(both at the place i used to work) (19" and 22""
and LCD LG tv,i will post the model later
Exactly
most people are unaware of viewing process just as much as of any other process going in their bodies and mind
you maybe don't see it but for CRT you need special eye focus. For LCD is much less necessity but as crappy TNs give different colors to each eye one can still get eyestrain...
IPS don't have those effect so don't cause eyestrain as much if any (I never got any from IPS screen anyway...) so I recommend those. 8bit IPS on CCFL is surely good way to go
quantum112
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most people are unaware of viewing process just as much as of any other process going in their bodies and mind
you maybe don't see it but for CRT you need special eye focus. For LCD is much less necessity but as crappy TNs give different colors to each eye one can still get eyestrain...
IPS don't have those effect so don't cause eyestrain as much if any (I never got any from IPS screen anyway...) so I recommend those. 8bit IPS on CCFL is surely good way to go
Actually for me it is quite the opposite. I find the razor-sharp pixels on LCD much more of a strain on the eyes, everything just looks unnaturally sharp and jagged with each individual pixel sticking out. Objects in real life do not appear that sharp or detailed nor do they require the eye to focus on so many tiny details at once. When I look at an LCD where every pixel is being practically thrown in my face, my vision starts "zoning out" (deconverging), like I am trying to look through them, because my eye muscles get tired of trying to focus on 22" of such tiny detail at once.
On a CRT with well-adjusted focus, I do not get these problems because the aperture grille stripes are not nearly as fine, and the phosphors have a kind of nice, naturally smoothed out look. Which is also why you do not need any font smoothing and barely any anti-aliasing.