Farmers get Cornholed by DRM Software

NeghVar said:
What are equivalent alternatives to John Deere's equipment? Or does John Deere have a monopoly?
Well if you don't like our products, then purchase from some other manufacturer. Oh wait. We are the only manufacturer.
south-park-s17e02c05-the-cable-company-runaround-16x9.jpg
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There's a ton of Deere competitors, in fact, Deere stock got pummeled a while back because they were having trouble competing in China against the low priced stuff out there. Stock has come back a ton because of the Trump rally and some vague reassurance of tarrifs that will keep out cheap chinese competition.
 
What's the old adage, you reap what you sow... Pretty sure that applies here. There's not a damn thing preventing these farmers from using equipment that lacks any sort of modern conveniences other than their desire to squeeze more $/acre.

John Deere is certainly in the wrong here if they are truly preventing owners from fixing their equipment, but if they're asserting their rights to protect proprietary systems, eg planting and harvesting optimization, then that's their right.

Any money says the ones that are complaining the loudest probably would fold in the first harvest if they had to do it manually...
 
lcpiper said:
Having a monopoly is not in and of itself illegal.

But John Deer does not have a monopoly. They do have a reputation though and that reputation has made John Deere the big dog. These farmers have grown to trust John Deere and if it costs more then it costs more, it's still cheaper than watching your crop waste away in the fields cause your tractor keeps breaking down. I'm not saying a JD won't break down, but they do have that reputation for a reason.

You know, I do IT work in a software development lab. I have many developers here that are smart people and they know their shit. But we don't give them admin rights to the infrastructure and it's not because they are ignorant on how to do things. It's cause we are the one's responsible and we are the ones who work every day and know how we have engineered this lab. There is always more than one way to skin a cat and we know how this cat has been skinned. They have the skills, but they don't have the local knowledge and they aren't the ones on the blame line if things get screwed up. So they don't get admin rights no matter how qualified they are.

To a degree, I can see why JD might be sensitive on who they allow to work on this equipment. A search leads me to believe that JD licenses other service centers to repair their equipment. I am sure they pay for the privilege.

I'm not sure if these tractors have reached the level of the storage systems I work on, but sometimes I wish I worked in a non-classified facility like I used to. I had times when NetApp sent me replacement drives cause I had one that failed. A couple of times the drive arrived on my desk before I was aware one had failed. That's good service, hell that's great service, but it isn't cheap.

This article is on a tech site. There's a lot of interest in this topic of DIY repairs. I just wonder if this subject is really such a big issue with most farmers or if this one guy is "that guy". I'm sure others know more and have a better view on this one.
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Hmm maybe you should be a Famer first before running your mouth with bunch hog wash that you have clue about in real world of faming
 
John Deere turning farmers into pirates. That's hilarious. Picturing a farmer with an eye patch with skull and crossbones on it. I would buy goods from that farmer. Next thing you know, we'll have DRM tomatoes. Aye Matey, plow the field and fuck John Deere.
 
SInce Deere is forcing people into this situation then I think it's okay to bypass it. I thought Deere was a respectable company but seems like blackmail is the new game.
 
Master_shake_ said:
step one. stop growing food.
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Step one... stop buying from companies that institute draconian measures like this if you can get around it
Step two ... take off that "Make 'muricah great" hat (no don't put your Trump hat on either)
Step three...Watch John Deere do a complete 180 when they realize their SOLE customer base decided to stand up for themselves.
 
They paid for it, they need it to make a living, back to the first part regardless.

Let them repair THEIR own fucking tractors.
 
Mike89 said:
John Deere turning farmers into pirates. That's hilarious. Picturing a farmer with an eye patch with skull and crossbones on it. I would buy goods from that farmer. Next thing you know, we'll have DRM tomatoes. Aye Matey, plow the field and fuck John Deere.
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Having a pissy day, and appreciate the belly laugh. Yeah, I'd go out of my way to do business with that dude.
 
NeghVar said:
In the beginning, they had good intentions. But power corrupts. But there are probably unions out there that adhere to their original purpose
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I always find it funny people bash on Unions, yet so many complain of companies taking advantage of their workers, peoples standard of living going down. While Unions have been going down the drain as well since the wealthy hate them so much and blast them anytime they get a chance. You noticed the same trend, both unions and the standard of living going down together. Simple fact Unions are neither evil nor angelic, they simply allow people to negotiate as a collective rather then a single individual and also their is much better job security. Just have to remember both sides can be greedy and both the wealthy and the unions play politics. But a plain simple fact is as the unions fall so has the standard of living in this country and company owners rarely care about their employees anymore.
 
I think most of this can be summed up by the statement "DRM is evil and must die."

Essentially, the DMCA has been twisted by lawyers for use in ways that were never intended. This is very similar to how things have become with replacement printer cartridges -- many of which are technically illegal. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty act essentially states that they cannot prevent other manufacturers from making replacement printer cartridges and that the printer manufacturers cannot void your warranty solely because you used an off brand cartridge (unless said cartridge was actually responsible for the failure). So, the printer manufacturers have put chips on the ink cartridges with "proprietary/encrypted" software on them that is covered by the DMCA. So while third party manufacturers can make replacement cartridges, the information contained on the chips on said cartridges is actually illegal to replicate, effectively blocking the use of the cartridges (of course, that hasn't stopped a ton of Chinese manufacturers from selling replacement chips on Ebay, etc -- although they technically are illegal to import into the USA).

This also applies to things such as cell phones and similar equipment -- where they have effectively locked out access to the phones and had previously locked them to specific carriers by making it technically illegal to break the DRM on the boot loaders and operating systems on the phone. To which my comment is a hearty "BS". If I purchase a device, I own it. I do not agree with the licensing terms that state how I have to use said device -- period. If I have bought a physical item, I will use it how I see fit, modify it as I see fit, repair it as I see fit, and if the manufacturer doesn't like it, I really don't care. I have rooted and unlocked every phone I have ever owned and will not own one that I cannot do that on. From a licensing standpoint, personally, I'm not violating their license. Historically, I have replaced the bootloader and entire rootfs with either my own modified versions or with other open source custom versions (e.g. Cyanogen, etc). If I've essentially wiped their software off the device and I'm running my own, then any actual software licenses don't apply. The vast majority of the software on Android cell phones is GPL anyway and, having perused the file system on some recent cell phones, I can state with some confidence that a lot of them are in violation of the terms of the GPL themselves (and on a few I've found bits and pieces of stuff that are derived from code that is GPL3 -- which means there are some specific unlocking/rooting implications right there).

Personally, I would love to see the law revised to making rooting and unlocking essentially ANY piece of personally owned hardware legal and declare all restrictive "shrink wrap" licensing agreements totally null and void.

Actually, this might be a perfect opportunity to check the entire set of John Deere firmware against known GPL code bases -- and this might also be a great opportunity for someone to start writing an "OpenTractor" full set of GPL replacement firmware for equipment of this kind.

Similarly, where companies sell a product which already has a certain functionality built-in in software, but not enabled, and they then sell you an activation code to turn it on, I think the entire paradigm needs to change. If I own the device, then what I do it to enable/disable/modify functionality is my business. If they don't want a feature enabled, then said feature should not have been built into the device to begin with. All they would have had to do would be to leave said feature out of the software that was sold on the device and then, when you want to add features, you simply transfer new software onto the device.

The entire licensing, patent, and copyright infrastructure needs to be radically overhauled.
 
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Well my father always said John Deere tractors were green for a reason :) Because it takes a lot of green to keep them going.

Seriously, John Deere tractors have not been that great since the late 70s. They break down just as much as any other brand and their parts cost twice as much. They have the big name and many corporate farms that are run by boards of directors will gobble them up on name alone, but if you drive around the country side here and most places you will see they are not the majority of tractors in the fields. CaseIH, Massey Ferguson, Kubota, New Holland(formally Ford), are just as popular as John Deere and some of the foreign brands like Mahindra are gaining ground. John Deere will continue to dominate at places like golf courses, but if they keep with this way of business and the others don't take it up, they will quickly fall off the map on small to medium farms.

Most independent farmers will do their own maintenance because profit margins are so narrow, and if something breaks you just can't wait a week for a service tech to show up. If the weather is good, you have to work then and there, no waiting in the field because you broke a fan belt and over heated and now the tractor won't allow you to start it because the service tech has not input a code to unlock it. Most farmers would use some rope or the belt of their own pants to make the tractor run while they send someone to town to get a replacement. Heck half the farms around here have equipment they build themselves out of junk instead of paying full price for it at a dealership(just like many of us have done with computers to be honest when we were short on funds). Around me I also don't see many new tractors being used. Most are at least 10 years old and many are over 30 years old.

We still have the farm that my grandfather bought in 1949 and as far as I know there has never been a John Deere tractor used on it. My grandfather had Farmalls and an 8N Ford, my father bought the first diesel when I was a kid which was a used Massey Ferguson, then traded it for a 5000 Ford when I was in college(late 80s). Right now we still have the Ford and the Farmalls from 1953. The neighbor who has a much larger farm has large Fords, a large Case, some old Farmalls and one small John Deere. Of course they still have a 49 Ford 1 ton truck they use all the time too when they don't need to use the semis they have.

Sorry for the rant, messin with farmers is something that really gets me riled up because it is a vital profession that rarely receives any positive notice and it paid for my education 100%
 
jedijeb13 said:
Well my father always said John Deere tractors were green for a reason :) Because it takes a lot of green to keep them going.

Seriously, John Deere tractors have not been that great since the late 70s. They break down just as much as any other brand and their parts cost twice as much. They have the big name and many corporate farms that are run by boards of directors will gobble them up on name alone, but if you drive around the country side here and most places you will see they are not the majority of tractors in the fields. CaseIH, Massey Ferguson, Kubota, New Holland(formally Ford), are just as popular as John Deere and some of the foreign brands like Mahindra are gaining ground. John Deere will continue to dominate at places like golf courses, but if they keep with this way of business and the others don't take it up, they will quickly fall off the map on small to medium farms.

Most independent farmers will do their own maintenance because profit margins are so narrow, and if something breaks you just can't wait a week for a service tech to show up. If the weather is good, you have to work then and there, no waiting in the field because you broke a fan belt and over heated and now the tractor won't allow you to start it because the service tech has not input a code to unlock it. Most farmers would use some rope or the belt of their own pants to make the tractor run while they send someone to town to get a replacement. Heck half the farms around here have equipment they build themselves out of junk instead of paying full price for it at a dealership(just like many of us have done with computers to be honest when we were short on funds). Around me I also don't see many new tractors being used. Most are at least 10 years old and many are over 30 years old.

We still have the farm that my grandfather bought in 1949 and as far as I know there has never been a John Deere tractor used on it. My grandfather had Farmalls and an 8N Ford, my father bought the first diesel when I was a kid which was a used Massey Ferguson, then traded it for a 5000 Ford when I was in college(late 80s). Right now we still have the Ford and the Farmalls from 1953. The neighbor who has a much larger farm has large Fords, a large Case, some old Farmalls and one small John Deere. Of course they still have a 49 Ford 1 ton truck they use all the time too when they don't need to use the semis they have.

Sorry for the rant, messin with farmers is something that really gets me riled up because it is a vital profession that rarely receives any positive notice and it paid for my education 100%
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I know what you mean min of my family relative in calif still run farms to this day or they are truck drivers don't wrong John Deere did make some good model I like the old Johnny Popper hand started and Massey Ferguson 265 and Ford 8N, 9000.
 
Im surprised we do not have self driving ones by now. Seems like it would be way easier to make a self-driving tractor than a car.
 
We do. There is a thing called auto steer.

Mister E: Maybe, maybe not. As with anything money is the end game. The market is where it's at today because those improvements has lead to increased profits for the farmers, which enable them to spend more money. Like Jedijeb said, a lot of small farms it's hard to even make much money these days (not that you ever made buckets of cash farming) because of the increased pressure on yields. Without all of the fancy equipment, you might be spending more money in other areas and not maximizing your returns.
 
cyclone3d said:
What about Gamez and Appz ?

You ever see the old sites:
Warez Waldo
McWarez
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Hah...Haven't heard of those sites, but the other terms are familiar. In my younger days, I used to be an admin on a "warez" channel on EFnet back in the day, for several years.
 
So the bulk of the american GDP is based on fucking our own american citizens over and fee'ing the shit out of ourselves so that CEO's can make 9 figure salaries for short-term falsified wall street reports. Wall street can use those fake reports to do another round of robbing american's 401K's and slash their investment values, a big wash of stealing more money to get a 10th or 12th figure on their net worth via unethical tactics in the market. America makes it money on fucking Americans over... This is perfectly in line with how this country has operated since the 80s and continues to operates now. We then layer in some bogus news to suppress housing markets, we then allow legal bribery so the shady companies can pay politicians to do illegal things like take away Americans rights, or cause them to jump through expensive loopholes to realize their rights.

This country has only a few years left before it's own asshole is prolapsed.

After that though, I don't see enough information here to give John Deer a hard time YET... If the farmer out-right owns the equipment, it should be unlocked and they are free to do what they want... but if they are leasing or renting equiptment then no--- read the terms and know what you are getting into... I know some farmers and country folk... they are all serious hack jobbers, and you know what... all their hacks work great.. but man are they hacks... spot welding shit, rigging crap... you can't do that to your leased 2017 Acura TL and not expect to pay out of pocket for your blown engine at 11K miles because you stick an aftermarket supercharger on it... I'd want to know the detail more to see if that's what we are talking about... does Deer Unlock when you are 100% out-right owning the equiptment, if they are still locking it, then that should be illegal. just like an iPhone on contract vs unlocked.
 
Gideon said:
I always find it funny people bash on Unions, yet so many complain of companies taking advantage of their workers, peoples standard of living going down. While Unions have been going down the drain as well since the wealthy hate them so much and blast them anytime they get a chance. You noticed the same trend, both unions and the standard of living going down together. Simple fact Unions are neither evil nor angelic, they simply allow people to negotiate as a collective rather then a single individual and also their is much better job security. Just have to remember both sides can be greedy and both the wealthy and the unions play politics. But a plain simple fact is as the unions fall so has the standard of living in this country and company owners rarely care about their employees anymore.
Click to expand...

The concept of a union WAS not a bad thing, we absolutely needed them to turn the corner on workers rights, wages and conditions. The problem is that ever since the 70's or there about... unions became mafia.. they use highly unethical practices to fight good business sense... Their primary objective the past fifty years has been to destroy all that oppose them, ruin the companies they work for, Fight off any competition, destroy startup companies that could be seen as a future threat, keep bad employees working, and overpay employees.... the net result is they drive up costs significantly... their bribery and threats should be punishable by law, but they bribe and threaten their way out of that too.

Unions are simply corrupt thugs... nothing more. Unions have reach the point they are dangerous and should be illegal. there are sufficient laws and best practices on workplace conditions, free market dictates wages and competition is good for consumers. they do nothing for america, their upstanding members or the companies they work for.

Disclaimer - I'm talking about unions as an organizing body, not the mass of people in the union.

I've been in unions, have many current family members and friends... all of them admit it's a sham.

I currently work for a non-union company and my work place salary, conditions, benefits,etc.. are all fantastic... a union would destroy that if they tried to come in... No one can honestly say a union does anything good for anyone deserving. Those who are half-assed, like free rides and handouts love unions.
 
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M76 said:
I don't understand how this can stand. It's the very definition of running a monopoly.

This wouldn't fly in the EU. We just passed a law a few years ago that car manufacturers can't force new car owners to use their dealers shops for servicing if they don't want to void warranty. Well they still can't do it themselves, but new law says any receipt from an independent service is good enough to keep the warranty. I guess the same law applies to heavy machinery as well not just cars.
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We have that law in Canada but I bet farmer's here can't repair their own John Deere tractors either.

USA corporations have become bullies and the USA is now an oligarchy and no democracy.
 
kring said:
The concept of a union WAS not a bad thing, we absolutely needed them to turn the corner on workers rights, wages and conditions. The problem is that ever since the 70's or there about... unions became mafia.. they use highly unethical practices to fight good business sense... Their primary objective the past fifty years has been to destroy all that oppose them, ruin the companies they work for, Fight off any competition, destroy startup companies that could be seen as a future threat, keep bad employees working, and overpay employees.... the net result is they drive up costs significantly... their bribery and threats should be punishable by law, but they bribe and threaten their way out of that too.

Unions are simply corrupt thugs... nothing more. Unions have reach the point they are dangerous and should be illegal. there are sufficient laws and best practices on workplace conditions, free market dictates wages and competition is good for consumers. they do nothing for america, their upstanding members or the companies they work for.

Disclaimer - I'm talking about unions as an organizing body, not the mass of people in the union.

I've been in unions, have many current family members and friends... all of them admit it's a sham.

I currently work for a non-union company and my work place salary, conditions, benefits,etc.. are all fantastic... a union would destroy that if they tried to come in... No one can honestly say a union does anything good for anyone deserving. Those who are half-assed, like free rides and handouts love unions.
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I dont want to get into a big war with you about it, you sound a lot my uncle who hates unions without understanding them due to a bad experience. If you have a great employer then I am happy for you but things can change, I have been union and non union and when the company changed over to the sons hands at a place where I worked, he drove it all into the ground. Both sides can ruin a company fast if they dont engage their brain. People often forget Unions do whats best for the whole, not them personally and that rubs some people the wrong way. But their is no denying the fact as unions have sunk so has the middle class.
 
bugleyman said:
Competition is irrelevant. If you bought it, it's yours to do with as you please.
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Reality check time.

You don't "own" any movies or music in your collection. Nor do you "own" any piece of software. What you have purchased is a license. For that video, you have purchased a license to view a movie within the confines of your own home. That license, however, does NOT allow you to have a public exhibition of that movie, such as on a tour bus or at a convention.

As for software, you don't "own" any games or commercial software. What you have purchased is a license to use that piece of software on one or two computers that you own (e.g. Office on a personal computer and on a laptop computer). It is not for a business owner to purchase one copy and install it on 20 machines in the office.
 
Mister E said:
Do tractors really need to be that complicated and expensive?
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This is what I am wondering too. Its a bloody tractor! It should not need any fancy electronics and computers to do its job which is move slowly and plough the field or pull up a trunk. Why are computers/OBD's in tractors even a thing?
 
MaZa said:
This is what I am wondering too. Its a bloody tractor! It should not need any fancy electronics and computers to do its job which is move slowly and plough the field or pull up a trunk. Why are computers/OBD's in tractors even a thing?
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They have to run clean and meet EPA clean air standards which require lots of sophisticated equipment. The old days of watching black smoke pour out of one are pretty much dead, and black smoke now and you have a failure in the emissions package. I could bore you to death with technical details but that is the basic jist of it.
 
Gideon said:
They have to run clean and meet EPA clean air standards which require lots of sophisticated equipment. The old days of watching black smoke pour out of one are pretty much dead, and black smoke now and you have a failure in the emissions package. I could bore you to death with technical details but that is the basic jist of it.
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Emission restrictions? On tractors that gets driven around few times a year? No matter how black smoke it puts out its nothing but a drop in a bucket in grand scheme of things. I'm not a farmer but I always saw tractors nothing more than a tools like a wrench or a hoe, never figured that massive emission laws apply to them too.
 
MavericK said:
Hah...Haven't heard of those sites, but the other terms are familiar. In my younger days, I used to be an admin on a "warez" channel on EFnet back in the day, for several years.
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I used to have a site called Gamez Galore.

That was sooo long ago.

I wish I could find the animated gif of Bill Gates turning into Satan that I had on that site.

Edit: Found it.

i24mc3.gif
 
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MaZa said:
Emission restrictions? On tractors that gets driven around few times a year? No matter how black smoke it puts out its nothing but a drop in a bucket in grand scheme of things. I'm not a farmer but I always saw tractors nothing more than a tools like a wrench or a hoe, never figured that massive emission laws apply to them too.
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\Yes a mandated 90% reduction in NOX emissions will make things far more complicated.
 
Mike89 said:
Next thing you know, we'll have DRM tomatoes.
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We already do. Just look at Monsanto


The first time growers purchase Monsanto seed, they sign a stewardship agreement and contract agreeing not to save and replant seeds produced from the crops they grow from Monsanto seed.

“Farmers are presented with a contract that gives them a license to purchase the proprietary seed and traits,” Scott Baucum, Monsanto trait stewardship lead, said. “It also spells out the obligations and responsibilities that they would have in growing that seed. Among those obligations, farmers agree not to save seed and plant it again the following year. If a farmer wants to grow Roundup Ready soybeans again in a successive season, that farmer would agree to approach a licensed seed company and purchase that seed.”
 
Gideon said:
I dont want to get into a big war with you about it, you sound a lot my uncle who hates unions without understanding them due to a bad experience. If you have a great employer then I am happy for you but things can change, I have been union and non union and when the company changed over to the sons hands at a place where I worked, he drove it all into the ground. Both sides can ruin a company fast if they dont engage their brain. People often forget Unions do whats best for the whole, not them personally and that rubs some people the wrong way. But their is no denying the fact as unions have sunk so has the middle class.
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Wrong. Unions do what's best for the Union leader ship.
Many times they donate huge sums of money to politicians that pass laws destroying businesses and destroying union jobs.

While the Unions where donating almost 100% to the Democrats, the Democrats where supporting illegal immigration.
This undercut the wages in the construction industry, and eventually lead to the failure of most the construction unions in my area.

You don't want me to get started with the government worker unions and the financial disaster that has been for the taxpayers.
 
At some point the standard language in every single EULA becomes de facto law if courts uphold it. It's not like you have an option to buy an alternative if all three makers of Widget X have the same agreement. And you can't do business without Widget X.

It's basically another way for corporations to write their own legislation.
 
kring said:
The concept of a union WAS not a bad thing, we absolutely needed them to turn the corner on workers rights, wages and conditions. The problem is that ever since the 70's or there about... unions became mafia.. they use highly unethical practices to fight good business sense... Their primary objective the past fifty years has been to destroy all that oppose them, ruin the companies they work for, Fight off any competition, destroy startup companies that could be seen as a future threat, keep bad employees working, and overpay employees.... the net result is they drive up costs significantly... their bribery and threats should be punishable by law, but they bribe and threaten their way out of that too.
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How is this any different than any corporations?

One evil to fight another imo


  • Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.
    Ambrose Bierce
 
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ZLoth said:
Reality check time.

You don't "own" any movies or music in your collection. Nor do you "own" any piece of software. What you have purchased is a license. For that video, you have purchased a license to view a movie within the confines of your own home. That license, however, does NOT allow you to have a public exhibition of that movie, such as on a tour bus or at a convention.

As for software, you don't "own" any games or commercial software. What you have purchased is a license to use that piece of software on one or two computers that you own (e.g. Office on a personal computer and on a laptop computer). It is not for a business owner to purchase one copy and install it on 20 machines in the office.
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And this has what to do with repairing a tractor?

Everyone over 12 understands the concept of a software license. This ain't that.
 
M76 said:
This wouldn't fly in the EU. We just passed a law a few years ago that car manufacturers can't force new car owners to use their dealers shops for servicing if they don't want to void warranty. ...
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The car/tractor manufacturers decide who they want to sell their software to, and at what price. No big difference.

lcpiper said:
... I have many developers here that are smart people and they know their shit. But we don't give them admin rights to the infrastructure...
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Farmers are notorious for DIY solutions with just about everything. That started out of necessity. I understand your point about having to know the stuff, but that doesn't really seem to apply here.
Doing a small simple fix of a straightforward problem yourself shouldn't result in a totally disabled unit. It's like a user in your "infrastructure" decide to replace a broken keyboard himself and as a result gets locked out from his computer.

Tractors are the type of equipment that has to work "here and now", with the nearest service centre quite some distance away. Repairs that don't include parts that needs to be computer controlled should not result in a software disabled vehicle.

mdburkey said:
"DRM is evil and must die."
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Abuse of DRM (as described here) is evil.

kring said:
So the bulk of the american GDP is based on fucking our own american citizens over and fee'ing the shit out of ourselves so that CEO's can make 9 figure salaries...
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That's the inevitable negative effect of capitalism, yes. History shows that it'll take a revolution to fix the problem.

MaZa said:
Its a bloody tractor! It should not need any fancy electronics and computers to do its job which is move slowly and plough the field or pull up a trunk. Why are computers/OBD's in tractors even a thing?
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There's a huge difference in technology between a modern tractor and one that's 50 years old:
* Emissions has already been addressed.
* There's also navigation, to know exactly what parts of a field has been worked and to get perfectly straight plough lines.
* Communication, with the data network and navigation system.
* Other power/torque/speed control systems.
 
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