AgentxofxChaos
Agent of [H] Chaos
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2002
- Messages
- 4,212
As if the fear of norovirus wasn't enough to not go on a cruise with Carnival, they go ahead and start pulling stuff like this. They really seem to be gluttons for PR punishment.
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I would be shocked to find out any Western Europeans really think Americans are rich... Most tell me Americans are wasteful greedy idiots and that is being polite, heh. Most Koreans I have met think Americans are gullible slackers. But those are just the generalizations. I live in an area with a lot of foreign immigrants, especially Korean. Mostly we just all laugh about preconceptions across the ponds.
Well, honestly, it could be costing them about the same to have the outside agency vs in-house contractors/FTEs. Salary + benefits isnty cheap, but generally contractors get more per hour to make up for lack of benefits. I know when I was getting towards the end of my contract with them, converting me to a direct employee would have saved them some money. It's hard to say for sure without knowing the specifics, but if they are saving money, it's probably not that much.
They do have a fine point - Carnival and all of its companies aren't in the business of technology/IT. And, during my time there, I'd agree - they really didn't know what they were doing. They had some basic infrastructure issues that they were blind to, and didn't want to hear about. They'd spend a ton of money on hardware to hopefully overcome some of these issues. Like I said, full Cisco house, UCS gear for hypercisors, at least 3 datacenters. It's probably a good move for Carnival to get out of that field and indeed have someone else manage it. It might make their IT not suck - it certainly can't get much worse.
Carnival is the low budget party cruise line, fuck em anyway. My money is spent with Royal Caribbean Line, I like luxury.
Right, I never said the equipment was the problem. Just was showing that money really wasn't - that gear is not cheap. My job was around the engineering and automation of those systems - so, in a sense, reducing man hours needed. But, their implementation of it all was very nightmare-ish and crude. Like I said before, they had a number of very basic things done incorrectly, and instead of resolving those issues, they threw more hardware at it to circumvent it.But there is nothing wrong with a core of CISCO UCS with NetApp and the CISCO Networking. This is very capable equipment/systems, but like everything, there are smart ways to engineer these environments and then there are living nightmares. It really doesn't take a great number of people if things are running right. In fact, the better your IT people the more they can handle cause they have more time when it's all running right. You still need to give them enough time to manage things properly though, little things like documentation will kick you in the ass if you don't maintain them.
Right, I never said the equipment was the problem. Just was showing that money really wasn't - that gear is not cheap. My job was around the engineering and automation of those systems - so, in a sense, reducing man hours needed. But, their implementation of it all was very nightmare-ish and crude. Like I said before, they had a number of very basic things done incorrectly, and instead of resolving those issues, they threw more hardware at it to circumvent it.
Look, I am not arguing the results following such practices. What I am saying is that in general US IT workers are making over twice as much as those in other first world countries such as Germany and the UK. That's a big fucking deal. Even the case in question isn't about saving money (heh)
You and I both know heavy weight professionals aren't the ones being threatened. It's all about the regular guys who are basically expandable these days. I think many IT people are just bitter their jobs are slowly being "reduced" in importance which, of course, reflects on their pay. Accept it, mon. We're not more important than doctors or carpenters, or cooks, or the ones taking care of our garbage. Even if you don't, that's how I feel. And it's increasingly obvious that's how all these executives feel.
I knew a guy and his wife (along with 3 other couples) that were on the infamous Carnival Triumph Cruise from Hell. He's far right, holding up a sign they made thanking another ship for transferring supplies to them.
View attachment 13518
Edit: Aren't humans amazing? I mean the psychology. Floating around in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico on a broken down ship, and people let bags of feces stack up on the decks and in the passageways instead of dumping them overboard. That's what I call a hard core commitment to the environment. LoL.
Had I been Captain it would have been Gents shitting off planks on one side of the aft, ladies on the other side.
the temporary foreign wanker program fucks another group of workers.
wait, aren't they supposed to try and fill those positions with actual americans before giving up and fucking off?
So vastly USA customers are paying a USA company to take them on cruises in a USA area, and they expect to use non USA primary help?
Searching for the lowest price on everything is why there has been stagflation on everything and why family income has been flat since the 90's. If people don't take a stand and say, "Hold up, I want to support my country" then we are screwed. Globalization is a failed concept which only works one way in the long term: To benefit the poorer country.
When the idea of globalization was created, economist were like, "But you get more buying power and we will retrain those workers for new positions" While the first part of the statement is true, the later part is blanket false. Japan has been trying to switch to a service economy for decades and they suffer from the same problem of economic growth. Not all workers can be retrained. The only remaining positions that pay decently are usually very high tech ones, or medical industry ones.
I don't think it's run amok. Yes it would be nice to have companies with some of those personal attributes it just is hard to place value on them and thus difficult to place laws around them (mostly dealing with publicly traded companies and investors.
Just like government and the political parties... the fault ultimately lies with the people. If people gave a crap other than price companies would behave differently.
The part that is amok in a capitalist (like) market/society is giving these same companies a direct voice in government (no donation limits, lobby etc). It confuses me that people think they should have a voice yet defend company actions like this one saying they have no choice ...they have to make the most profit for their shareholders.
OK I can buy the "by law they have too" argument, makes sense... But if they HAVE to do something by law why do we give them a voice when we know what they will HAVE to do in any given situation? Seems pretty obvious they would always side on what would make them more profit ignoring all other factors, not that in of itself is wrong.
Who do you think make the offshoring decisions?Fix the economy and this situation will fix itself. It appears we may be replacing gnat-brained academics and their ideologically driven agenda with pragmatic hard-nose businessmen in decision making government positions. Maybe sanity is returning...
I would be shocked to find out any Western Europeans really think Americans are rich... Most tell me Americans are wasteful greedy idiots and that is being polite, heh. Most Koreans I have met think Americans are gullible slackers. But those are just the generalizations. I live in an area with a lot of foreign immigrants, especially Korean. Mostly we just all laugh about preconceptions across the ponds.
Oh, I get it. Of course you're not going to like globalization when you're vastly better off than pretty much anybody else and it would mean giving up a little so that others are no longer starving. Almost nobody is OK with giving up anything, no matter how much they have. This is a story as old as the world. I really get it even though I don't agree with people making such a stance.
Since you went all cynical about it, I'll respond in the same vain: I am not in America and I stand to gain from you losing your dominant position.
Globalization is more or less equalization and I am all for it even if I stand to "lose" some since most people are living a lot worse than me. The alternative is kings and dirt poors. It used to be like that for most of our recorded history, you know.
Oh, I get it. Of course you're not going to like globalization when you're vastly better off than pretty much anybody else and it would mean giving up a little so that others are no longer starving. Almost nobody is OK with giving up anything, no matter how much they have. This is a story as old as the world. I really get it even though I don't agree with people making such a stance.
Since you went all cynical about it, I'll respond in the same vain: I am not in America and I stand to gain from you losing your dominant position.
Globalization is more or less equalization and I am all for it even if I stand to "lose" some since most people are living a lot worse than me. The alternative is kings and dirt poors. It used to be like that for most of our recorded history, you know.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_country_donors#cite_note-3
European Union – $87.64 billion[3]
United States – $31.08 billion United Kingdom – $18.70 billion Germany – $17.78 billion Japan – $9.32 billion France – $9.23 billion Sweden – $7.09 billion Netherlands – $5.81 billion Canada – $4.29 billion Norway – $4.28 billion Italy – $3.84 billion Switzerland – $3.54 billion Australia – $3.22 billion Denmark – $2.57 billion South Korea – $1.91 billion Belgium – $1.89 billion Spain – $1.60 billion Finland – $1.29 billion Austria – $1.21 billion Ireland – $0.72 billion Poland – $0.44 billion
equalling the $87.64 billion listed above.EU Institutions $13.85 billion, EU member states $73.80 billion.
Net official development assistance by country in 2015[edit]
To qualify as official development assistance, a contribution must contain three elements:
Thus, by definition, ODA does not include private donations.
- Be undertaken by the official sector (that is, a government or government agency);
- With promotion of economic development and welfare as the main objective;
- At concessional financial terms (that is, with favorable loan terms.)
Which is all well and good but how many of these countries have been fighting a war for the last 15 years? And really, private donations from Americans have been reaching over $30 billion and our government donates 32 billion in non-military aid and what is not listed above is the other $10.5 billion in military aid.Out of the DAC countries, Sweden was the most generous – it was the first to meet the 0.7% target in 1974 – donating 1.1% of its GNI to foreign aid, which works out at about $6.2bn. Next came Luxembourg, at 1.07%, then Norway at 0.99% and Denmark at 0.85%. The UK was fifth, higher than Germany at 0.41%, France at 0.36% and Switzerland at 0.49%.
In fiscal year 2014, the U.S. government allocated the following amounts for aid:
Total economic and military assistance: $43.10 billion
Total military assistance: $10.57 billion
Total economic assistance: $32.53 billion
It doesn't work well. Been through it multiple times to find the company brings it back. A lot of times the outsourced people have less experience and just read from a book. They also don't care about the company and do things when they want.Has any one seen an outsourced set up work well? The problem is company's keep chasing the dollar and cuting cost. No mater what skills you have someone on the other side of the world or that is here illegally will do it cheaper then you could live off.
If your country suffers, then blame your own leaders, not us. This is a fundamental tenet in political treatise books including the Leviathan. Quite frankly I would rather put food in my neighbor's belly than yours. Living in a country like USA means things are expensive. And while $25,000 would be a kings ransom in some countries, it's starvation level here. The number of people on welfare and assistance has dramatically increased in relation to decrease in wages. Those decreases in wages are tied to loss of manufacturing jobs here.
And if you think we are greedy, you would be wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid We give more in foreign aid than any other industrialized nation in the world.
And if you don't like that, then tough, not my problem.
Yeah, I chuckled reading that one.
While I think the company is in the wrong demanding people training their replacements, the american IT workers/devs need to accept reality - they are too expensive and not only compared to poor countries.
Either learn new skills or accept a lower standard of living. Being angry is fine but at some point they're going to have to accept reality.
Don't you think people in your line of work should be paid less? I mean do you REALLY deserve the money you make?
So vastly USA customers are paying a USA company to take them on cruises in a USA area, and they expect to use non USA primary help?
Searching for the lowest price on everything is why there has been stagflation on everything and why family income has been flat since the 90's. If people don't take a stand and say, "Hold up, I want to support my country" then we are screwed. Globalization is a failed concept which only works one way in the long term: To benefit the poorer country.
When the idea of globalization was created, economist were like, "But you get more buying power and we will retrain those workers for new positions" While the first part of the statement is true, the later part is blanket false. Japan has been trying to switch to a service economy for decades and they suffer from the same problem of economic growth. Not all workers can be retrained. The only remaining positions that pay decently are usually very high tech ones, or medical industry ones.
Don't you think people in your line of work should be paid less? I mean do you REALLY deserve the money you make?
IT keeps the companies lights on. Without us, they would be SOL. And we should be paid well. Many management people do not seem to understand that. I think there is a threshold. I have seen some people get paid too much and some get paid too little. But I have seen more get paid too little than enough.
Don't EVER overestimate your importance. BTW: The people in marketing & accounting would like to discuss who keeps the lights on for you.
I want people in other fields to be paid more. Which, in effect, means yes. I don't deserve this much MORE compared to the people who clean the streets, clean my garbage, teach my kids, even the fucking law enforcement. Keyword is relative to them
Of course that puts me in a minority. Not a huge surprise there
I can promise you it isn't them. Without a computer, Network, cabling, etc they are SOL like I said. Most people in accounting can't do it by hand these days, and all have to do it on a application like Great Plains or quick books.
Without anybody in marketing to SELL services/products, there is no income. And without income, the people in accounting can't pay that electric bill that keeps the lights on.
When you are in a company everyone matters. If they didn't matter, they would be laid off. Like I said, you're a cog. You can be bypassed, or replaced. Don't overestimate your importance.
Remain humble. Work hard. Be grateful you have a job which puts a roof over your head and food on your table. Don't be envious of others. Envy is a sin.
As my dad taught me, "If your employer ask you to clean toilets, you clean toilets. And if you don't like that, don't complain. Get a new job."
Anyone who has worked with overseas IT workers should understand that the quality is definitely not up to par with US-based workers, sorry.
Without anybody in marketing to SELL services/products, there is no income. And without income, the people in accounting can't pay that electric bill that keeps the lights on.
When you are in a company everyone matters. If they didn't matter, they would be laid off. Like I said, you're a cog. You can be bypassed, or replaced. Don't overestimate your importance.
Remain humble. Work hard. Be grateful you have a job which puts a roof over your head and food on your table. Don't be envious of others. Envy is a sin.
As my dad taught me, "If your employer ask you to clean toilets, you clean toilets. And if you don't like that, don't complain. Get a new job."
No thanks, I work to play the social game so I can make more money. Being complacent in life gets you nowhere and if I wasn't envious of people making more money than me then I would never see a pay raise. If I have valid complaints to raise then I will raise them. A good employer knows how to keep its employees happy and knows the value of its best workers. No, everyone does not matter, some workers exist to fill seats and diversity roles. If you're just going to work like a cog then yes you are replaceable. Don't be a cog.
I spent nearly 6 years as a government contractor without a raise. I thought just being happy for what I was making was enough. But slowly I saw so many people undeserving of where they are or what they make. Incompetent staff quickly working their way up the ladder based on nothing but social engineering and favoritism. It really jaded my view of the American workplace. In the last 2 years I doubled my pay by making myself heard, not by complaining(no one likes a complainer) but by stating my worth and it worked. It's always good to make yourself heard and not just be another face in a cubicle. In my position the worst they can say is no.
A decision is made by considering all relevant data. If excessive taxation and regulations makes doing business in the United States "difficult" than decisions will be made to move offshore. Conversely if taxes and regulations are reduced to more business friendly levels than it becomes more probable that businesses will decide to remain or return.Who do you think make the offshoring decisions?
The businessmen.
No, in Government contracting you are not likely going to see many decent raises. Each job position has a price range, once you get close to the top of that price range you won't get much more. If you start there then that's just all there is. The only way from there to get a raise is look for a contract that has a better pay range and jump contracts, or move to a new job category that has a better pay range.
For instance, by working my way into storage related positions I'll be able to swing a change from standard sysadmin pay ranges to storage engineer pay ranges. That's as far as I care to take it, I'm 57 in March, I plan to retire at 62, I have 5 years left and then it's adios mutherfuckers, I'm popping smoke and making room for a new guy.