lostinseganet
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2008
- Messages
- 1,221
Too expensive needs to be $23,000 before I will buy. I also worry about the battery.
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Most people I know bought solar first, then went electric. Those panels still pollute less (in manufacturing) than fuel powered sources for the power generated. Pollution from manufacturing is better than a normal car, if you balance the difference between air pollution vs manufacturing polution, and is only getting cleaner as we get higher power density with battery design improvements. Any power they pump into the grid from solar during the day encourages power companies to size for evening consumption levels rather than daytime as they did in the past, while we wait for a viable power storage system. Some people live near hydroelectric or wind and are therefore greener. The important thing is Electric cars are progressively cleaner as our power sources improve. Considering so many cars are on the road over 10-15 years (at least in the US and 3rd world where we exempt old cars from pollution laws), this makes a difference.
False. States where most EVs are sold have most of their power grid on natural gas, but even if the grid is 100% coal it wouldn't make hydrogen FCVs greener since you put more carbon in the air generating and transporting the hydrogen fuel than if you had just charged a battery.* Hydrogen vehicles combine the disadvantages of EVs and gas cars, as they have less range and power than a gas car and need a whole new refueling infrastructure, they're just as expensive as EVs but you can't charge them at home so you still have to fill up regularly. As electric turbochargers, better hybrid tech, and other methods push MPG of gas hybrids above 60 MPG, hydrogen FCVs will be a fully redundant technology.
*The related claim that EVs are no more efficient or environmentally friendly than gas cars because of coal power is also false, mostly because states that buy lots of EVs mainly use natural gas power but also because even a 100% coal grid is still cleaner than thousands of tailpipes and EVs mostly charge at night when the power would have otherwise been wasted.
Yes, I'm aware of this. An electric car used in California has a smaller carbon footprint than an electric car used in Ohio. I'm suggesting that we diversify the research into all promising technologies as to not put all of our eggs into one basket. Why assume that hydrogen fuel would have to be transported by a car?
Anyways, the studies I know of that looked into this topic are below if anyone is curious. Good weekend reading:
EPRI | New EPRI-NRDC Report Finds Widespread Adoption of Electric Transportation Could Curb Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Improve Air Quality
http://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default...ctric-car-global-warming-emissions-report.pdf
Yea thing is...20% of the USA power capacity is about to disappear. All that capacity is in nuclear reactor cores that are at or beyond their rated design lifetime.
And there is precisely zero movement to make up that pending loss in capacity. Hell, I could cover my roof with solar panels, and I wouldn't generate enough power to keep my computer/monitor and the lights on in the room on during the day. Considering much of the USA is all but uninhabitable during the summer months without high electrical usage to run air conditioning...we're going to have problems with these wiz-bang electric cars, if they ever catch on.
Well said. Every new technology or idea gets treated this way. Criticized for every minor way in which it falls short of the established idea with no consideration for every aspect in which it is superior. It's been years since the last time I drove more than 200 miles in one trip, and even longer since I drove farther than 400. If a Model 3 were my only car, I would have had to rent a gas car to drive up the coast just once in the past decade, which would have been cheaper than driving my own gas car anyway due to the wear and tear. Meanwhile, most people spend an extra 15 mins each week driving to the gas station, filling up, and driving back even if they try to do it while running other errands. That's 13 wasted hours per year that you would get back by owning an EV. They are also much more pleasant to drive because they deliver a lot more torque at low speeds, have a low center of gravity due to the battery under the floor, and are much quieter. EV's are not for everyone, of course, and won't compete on an even playing field for another ~10 years, but that's no reason to listen to the FUD that keeps getting repeated even though it's been conclusively debunked since 2011 when people started buying EVs en masse.
Problem is "widespread".
Even the most ubiquitous of greener-vehicles, the Toyota Prius, that has been around for 20 years now....has a market penetration of barely 2% nationwide among car owners.
Most of these greener and green vehicles are too expensive for most consumers outright. And further are greatly uneconomical compared to old ICE tech with break-even points on costs of a decade or more (i.e. beyond the life of the vehicle in all likelihood).
I think my entire home including 2 PCs and a 8 U server running is under 3kw, and that's less than 10 panels for me, though it would be much higher if we didn't have good insulation, IR blocking window films and the solar panels themselves which reduced the roof temperature significantly since they block all that heat and provides an air gap, and had to rely on A/C, most of the insulation work paid itself off in no time. I've been tempted to paint the dark roof white to further reduce the heat generation, but i'll wait until the current roof needs replacement and go with light colored shingles since the paint apparently doesn't stick well to our kind of roof.
Depends on where you live...and the time of year...even before factoring in weather. Also depends on the kind of panels you are using. As you live farther north, the solar radiation amounts plummets.
I'm skeptical of your math....but let's say you live in Tulsa, OK (somewhere not too far north or south). Now your computer array needs 3kW you say. so there are 24 hours per day and 30 days a month....so your computers need 2160 kWhrs per month (3*24*30). SO you assume a 15% panel efficiency, and use 200W panels...that requires 71 panels. Now just looking on EBayyou can get 250W panels with 18% efficiency for $7,000USD for 40 panels.
The Hands-Free Solar Panel Estimator Based On Your IP address
No sure you can spend (a lot) more money for much more efficient panels....but a solar array is already financially not going to ROI even with low-end panels to home owners in a reasonable time frame. And remember I picked 36N Latitude, a fairly small distance from the equator.
I stood in line to reserve one yesterday... I figure if I can put $250 on a pretend Star Citizen space ship, I can put $1000 on this.
You should see what the trunk access looks like. Not a good grocery getter.
People need to realize that the 215 mile Model 3 is probably not a $35k car.
The $35k is the starting price before all options.
Keep in mind the pricing on the Model S lineup (non signature) ranges from $71,000 for the entry level 60 kWh car to $81,000 for the standard 85 kWh version and another $10,000 for the P85 (85 kWh Performance Edition).
You're probably looking at least at another $10k to get to the 215 miles. Then add the other costs like the $2k supercharger.
There is a reason why Tesla provided so little details about the car today. Pull in a lot of preorders (me included), get $200M in cash, use that to fund development, mainly based on the huge interest Tesla will make on that cash (and assume 50% of the people keep the preorders), then after it has paid to finish your development release the rest of the details and lose the other half of the preorders from people who realizes this is a $35k very basic base model cost with minimal range.
It was pretty clear at the reveal, 215miles was the expected range of the base model, RWD, 6 seconds 0-60. Additional range and performance is an add-on, probably requiring the second AWD motor so it starts getting expensive like on the Model S (70kwh base, I think it was an extra 15k to get the 90kwh upgrade).
They have a trunk in the front and back (no engine in front)
It was pretty clear at the reveal, 215miles was the expected range of the base model, RWD, 6 seconds 0-60. Additional range and performance is an add-on, probably requiring the second AWD motor so it starts getting expensive like on the Model S (70kwh base, I think it was an extra 15k to get the 90kwh upgrade).
i just want a larger battery. I hope I can just get a pure "base" model with upgraded battery size to get near 300 miles range. single motor is fine. 0-60 in 6 seconds is plenty fast. But like the model S seems like they will make you pay for "tech package" which is almost necessity.
Actually, he said at least an EPA rating of 215 miles per charge, and these are the minimum numbers, but they hope to exceed them, so they may come out with 250+ range for the base model. We'll just have to wait and see.
Well, production is scheduled to start late 2017 so they have almost a year and half to work stuff out, so we'll see.From what I have read, everything presented were simply design goals, not actual promised specs. Given what has happened in the past, Elon Musk will probably delay release until design goals are met.
I hate to pick nits, but there's no way you can drive to the nearest gas station, be guaranteed a spot at the pump without having to wait, get out and pay, fill the tank, and get back home in 5 minutes. 10 maybe, but for every person who can do it in 10 there is someone who needs 20-30, so 15 is a fair estimate.That's great for you. It's been a few weeks since I drove 400 miles (800 round trip) and I'll do that 2x this week and again a week or 2 after that. That's far more than normal, but doing that every 6 weeks is not. As for 15 minutes to get gas, I'm not sure where you live, but it'd take me maybe 5 minutes.
I don't think any but the most extreme EV advocates would argue that EVs are suitable for 100% of the US market. Clearly your situation is not compatible with an EV, so your greenest vehicle option would be a diesel, hybrid, or plug-in hybrid like the Volt.The nearest supercharger is 60 miles away (an hour from me) and not in a direction I'd drive to go most of the time (and there's zero charging stations along my 400 mile route). You live on one of the coasts, so charging stations are everywhere. I live in TX and Tesla's are not practical...and trust me, I'd love it if it'd work, but it doesn't. What's more, the III is priced where apartment dwellers might want it, but few (if any) apartments have a way for occupants to charge their car.
Say what you want, but it's not going to take over until it can cover more ground. God help you if you needed to get from L.A. to San Antonio. You'll need a tow for several hundred miles.
The problem is capacity, usage peaks during the day while people are at work and is a minimum at night. Car chargers could be or will be on timers to utilize electricity when rates are cheapest, that will be overnight. A more even utilization of the grid allows the equipment to pay for itself better making regulatory unnaffordable power plants to become affordable.Yea thing is...20% of the USA power capacity is about to disappear. All that capacity is in nuclear reactor cores that are at or beyond their rated design lifetime.
And there is precisely zero movement to make up that pending loss in capacity. Hell, I could cover my roof with solar panels, and I wouldn't generate enough power to keep my computer/monitor and the lights on in the room on during the day. Considering much of the USA is all but uninhabitable during the summer months without high electrical usage to run air conditioning...we're going to have problems with these wiz-bang electric cars, if they ever catch on.
Actually, he said at least an EPA rating of 215 miles per charge, and these are the minimum numbers, but they hope to exceed them, so they may come out with 250+ range for the base model. We'll just have to wait and see.
It nees to be $4000 for me before I'll buy it. but who cares? Certainly not tesla. At the current price point it's certainly the first usable electric car not attainable only by the rich, who have no monetary incentive to care about fuel consumption anyway.Too expensive needs to be $23,000 before I will buy. I also worry about the battery.
The deposits are refundable, but presuming they turn into sales, Tesla can look forward to at least $8.1 billion in revenue on its first mass-market vehicle.
Customers gave Tesla what is effectively a $232 million interest-free loan to fund its goal of selling 500,000 new Model 3s by the end of the decade
Depends on where you live...and the time of year...even before factoring in weather. Also depends on the kind of panels you are using. As you live farther north, the solar radiation amounts plummets.
I'm skeptical of your math....but let's say you live in Tulsa, OK (somewhere not too far north or south). Now your computer array needs 3kW you say. so there are 24 hours per day and 30 days a month....so your computers need 2160 kWhrs per month (3*24*30). SO you assume a 15% panel efficiency, and use 200W panels...that requires 71 panels. Now just looking on EBayyou can get 250W panels with 18% efficiency for $7,000USD for 40 panels.
The Hands-Free Solar Panel Estimator Based On Your IP address
No sure you can spend (a lot) more money for much more efficient panels....but a solar array is already financially not going to ROI even with low-end panels to home owners in a reasonable time frame. And remember I picked 36N Latitude, a fairly small distance from the equator.
I agree, but the problem is that Tesla's network of chargers pretty much skips the entire south. It's insane that there's no efficient way to drive from L.A. to the East coast (or even Houston) or that I-20 has no chargers on it until you get to Atlanta!....correction, they have one in Jackson Mississippi. Unfortunately, you can't go anywhere other than New Orleans or Baton Rouge (but probably not in a Model III)I hate to pick nits, but there's no way you can drive to the nearest gas station, be guaranteed a spot at the pump without having to wait, get out and pay, fill the tank, and get back home in 5 minutes. 10 maybe, but for every person who can do it in 10 there is someone who needs 20-30, so 15 is a fair estimate.
I don't think any but the most extreme EV advocates would argue that EVs are suitable for 100% of the US market. Clearly your situation is not compatible with an EV, so your greenest vehicle option would be a diesel, hybrid, or plug-in hybrid like the Volt.
That's really not an issue. If you're worried about total cost, then EV isn't the way to go...at least not until gas prices double or triple. OTOH, the wealthy person that's concerned about the environment may get one anyway. They also might go for it because of the semi autopilot or other tech that tesla has. Hell, they might go for an S to get insane mode.It nees to be $4000 for me before I'll buy it. but who cares? Certainly not tesla. At the current price point it's certainly the first usable electric car not attainable only by the rich, who have no monetary incentive to care about fuel consumption anyway.
I agree, but the problem is that Tesla's network of chargers pretty much skips the entire south. It's insane that there's no efficient way to drive from L.A. to the East coast (or even Houston) or that I-20 has no chargers on it until you get to Atlanta!....correction, they have one in Jackson Mississippi. Unfortunately, you can't go anywhere other than New Orleans or Baton Rouge (but probably not in a Model III).
Who needs to drive coast to coast? Do you do that regularly? Ever? I've never done that and never will.
More realistically people drive North and South on the coasts, rather that East, West between them.
The network can't spring up overnight, it takes time and money, so some places of lower priority have to wait...
People have been waiting for fueling infrastructure for anything beyond gasoline and diesel for 40 years. It still hasn't happened. Maybe in another 40 it might happen.
Then again considering that the one eccentric billionaire pushing this isn't found to live forever... I'd not count on it
It's kind of a chicken and egg problem. To get mass sales of alternative fuel cars, you need infrastructure. To get infrastructure, you need demand from having cars requiring ir.People have been waiting for fueling infrastructure for anything beyond gasoline and diesel for 40 years. It still hasn't happened. Maybe in another 40 it might happen.
Hmm, price is a bit higher than I usually go for - by about 10k - but I went ahead and reserved one. I'm in the market for a new car in a couple years so figured why not.
Plus no dealership hassle, major plus for me - usually I buy used just so I can avoid dealing with them.
Will probably go for dual motors for winter traction, and I figure not needing an oil change etc should be a really nice convenience, less time and money burned.
The performance even at base should be fun as well, my only concern is if I can stay close to 35k final price after rebates. We'll see...
Considering that most people couldn't even buy an EV before 2010, 12000 charging stations in 6 years is pretty damn good:
Alternative Fuels Data Center: Alternative Fueling Station Locator[]=none&ev_levels[]=1&ev_levels[]=2&ev_levels[]=dc_fast&ev_connectors[]=none&ev_connectors[]=NEMA1450&ev_connectors[]=NEMA515&ev_connectors[]=NEMA520&ev_connectors[]=J1772&ev_connectors[]=CHADEMO&ev_connectors[]=J1772COMBO&ev_connectors[]=TESLA&ev_connectors[]=all&ev_networks[]=none&ev_networks[]=AeroVironment+Network&ev_networks[]=Blink+Network&ev_networks[]=ChargePoint+Network&ev_networks[]=EV+Connect&ev_networks[]=eVgo+Network&ev_networks[]=GE+WattStation&ev_networks[]=Greenlots&ev_networks[]=OpConnect&ev_networks[]=SemaCharge+Network&ev_networks[]=Tesla&ev_networks[]=all
It's kind of a chicken and egg problem. To get mass sales of alternative fuel cars, you need infrastructure. To get infrastructure, you need demand from having cars requiring ir.
Even if you assume it comes from a coal burning plant, the proponents of electric vehicles will tell you that it is easier to scrub the emissions of one power plant then it is 100,000 individual tail pipes. And I think that is a fair statement.
Looks like I need to start saving for 2018 (not going to pre-order, would rather wait to see what actually gets produced).. and I live in TX. This would be for a daily commute car (46 mile commute each way). While I would love more miles per charge, as a family of 4 we have more than one car anyways and use the van for any long distance trips. There is no way I could do a road trip with two kids in a Honda Accord/Civic sized car With 215 miles and two supercharger stations on I-45 I can drive from Houston to Dallas without too much inconvience. Heck, I could even make it to my Tulsa, OK to visit family without worrying much about it. Just requires more planning on my part to eat, use the restroom, etc. at those stops. Personally, I would like them to partner with the state and road systems to put them at rest stops, which would be the ideal stops for me.
Of course, that is if I'm making a trip by myself, otherwise I would always fall back on a minivan or SUV for comfort when traveling with the family.