• Some users have recently had their accounts hijacked. It seems that the now defunct EVGA forums might have compromised your password there and seems many are using the same PW here. We would suggest you UPDATE YOUR PASSWORD and TURN ON 2FA for your account here to further secure it. None of the compromised accounts had 2FA turned on.
    Once you have enabled 2FA, your account will be updated soon to show a badge, letting other members know that you use 2FA to protect your account. This should be beneficial for everyone that uses FSFT.

Microsoft Announces Surface Book

I'm one of those type that never use a laptop in my lap so it's not a concern for me but that still seems to be big issue for convertible devices. I think some just want Microsoft to make a conventional laptop. But there's no way this device would be as interesting if it were only a conventional laptop. I certainly wouldn't have bought it, not at the price I did.

But the mainstream laptop market is a lot bigger. I don't think Microsoft wants to go there just yet. A Surface Book conventional laptop couldn't possibly be anything OEMs want to see or Microsoft go into lower price categories. I think they could if the PC market deteriorates a lot more. But it's not easy to bring this kind of engineering to cheap stuff. For now Surface being a the Mac and iPad lines in the Windows space is probably the right way to go.
 
heatlesssun said:
So for from what I've seen in the reviews it looks like most people are impressed. There was a sort of review from Mary Jo Foley who's made a point of the Surface Pro line not being very "lapable" and she's saying the Surface Book doesn't work in her lap. The top heaviness seems to be the biggest issue and the wobbling from that for some. Others are saying it's not a problem.

It's also interesting to hear how many have said the Surface Book is heavy which is odd because it's pretty much the same weight as the rMBP 13" which I don't think I've ever heard called heavy. But it does seem the weight and size of the tablet section is impressing folks. It's almost the same weight as the iPad Pro with another .6" inches of diagonal screen size running up to a Core i7 and less than a 1 mm thicker. That's kind of amazing. Of course the battery life as a standalone tablet is just three to four hours. But it can be connected to power directly as a tablet. I wonder if the dock would work in the tablet section since it's the same power connector.

Very much looking forward to getting mine hopefully early next week.
Click to expand...

DO people like lugging an iPad Pro as a tablet? I know some people who go for the Mini, simply because the iPad Air (or whatever it's called) is too big for a tablet.

I need to go to the MS store and look at them, but if I buy a laptop, I'm leaning towards either the new XPS 15 or the Precision 15 (if dell ever puts them up on their site). I'm undecided on whether to get 4k or 2k. The latter has a lot better battery life and 15" is a small screen for 4k.
 
What do you think about this in regards to the Surface Pro 4?
Peter Bright of Ars Technica said:
Every previous time I've reviewed the Surface Pro, I've concluded with a kind of frustration. Microsoft keeps aiming the Surface Pro at laptops, and for the way I use laptops, it keeps falling short. Why, I have always asked, will they not simply build a real laptop?

But Microsoft now has a real laptop—the Surface Book. It still continues to promote the Surface Pro 4 as the tablet to replace your laptop, but there's now a clear acknowledgement that the tablet can't be the laptop replacement for everyone. The company recognizes some of us are still better served by laptops. While that positioning still strikes me as awkward, it doesn't bother me quite as much as it used to. The Surface Pro 3 proved that the basic design doesn't, in fact, have to be a laptop replacement to still be appealing and useful to a wide range of users.

Moving forward, I hope that Microsoft can promote the Surface Pro as its own kind of thing—a portable, versatile, powerful tablet-based computer—rather than explaining it as if it were a laptop.

After the reworking of the Surface Pro concept in the Pro 3, the Pro 4 is a solid refinement. It's easily the best implementation of the concept that Microsoft has put together so far; lighter, thinner, faster, with more storage, more memory, and a better screen, keyboard, and touchpad than it's ever had before.

The only complication preventing an unambiguous recommendation is that the Surface Pro 4 will imminently have some competition. The appeal of the Pro 3 seems to have stimulated Microsoft's OEM partners to step up and create their own comparable devices, and in the next few weeks, Lenovo (with the MIIX 7000), Dell (with the XPS 12), and HP (with the Spectre x2) will all have very similar devices of their own.

In some ways, this is what Microsoft wanted the Surface line to do—to push new form factors onto the market and coax OEMs into building better quality machines. With that now happening in earnest, however, it's not immediately obvious that the Surface Pro 4 is the machine to buy.

One thing we do know is that Microsoft intends to keep the Surface line as premium products. The Surface Pro 4 starts at $899 for the Core m3 with 4GB RAM and 128GB storage. That tops out at $2,699 for a Core i7, 16GB RAM, and 1TB storage. The pen is included, but as ever, the keyboard is not. You'll have to add $129.99 for a standard keyboard or $159.99 for the fingerprint version. The Dock is $199.99.

This leaves scope for Microsoft's partners to undercut it. The Surface Pro 4 is certainly a good machine, but is it going to be better, or a better value, than the competition? We'll have to wait a few weeks to find out.
Click to expand...
Link
 
It's been explained like this by some. The Surface Pro is the tablet that can replace a laptop and the Surface Book is a laptop that can replace a tablet. Of course such simple jingoism has many caveats and no product is for everyone especially at these price points but the concept has technical merit.
 
ccman said:
What do you think about this in regards to the Surface Pro 4?

Link
Click to expand...

heatlesssun said:
It's been explained like this by some. The Surface Pro is the tablet that can replace a laptop and the Surface Book is a laptop that can replace a tablet. Of course such simple jingoism has many caveats and no product is for everyone especially at these price points but the concept has technical merit.
Click to expand...

I think that is the line MS wants people to buy into, but I think the real function is what the Ars article points out: This hardware is an investment by MS into the ecosystem to push Windows and MS product sales. The rise of ultreabooks was nice, but it was growing stagnant, so MS put out the Surface line to get people excited about Windows Machines in new ways. This excitement, and the relative financial success of the Surface line, has spurred interest and innovation from OEMs. As a result we have some really great, new products like the gen1 Dell Venue 8 Pro (with its active stylus and finally good Atom cpu), the Lenovo Yoga Pro series and even some of the all in ones.

Despite MS's hokey marketing, reading around the web, more and more people are asking why Macbooks don't have touchscreens, and similar pressure has lead to the iPad Pro and its "pencil". But they're playing catch up.

The entire Surface idea... where interaction with a computer is not limited to a keybaord and mouse, is driving a new wave of MS products, and MS is riding that success.

The Surface Book is a one of a kind (for now) device. No other product combines an active stylus, convertible form factor and horsepower.
Consider the Surface Hub, HoloLense, Xbox One and even the Surface and Surface Pro lines of products.

No one is doing anything like this in one company, and the kicker is that MS is doing it NOT necessarily so you buy their hardware, but so that you buy into their ecosystem. They don't care if you buy a Surface or an HP or Dell, so long as you buy Windows, and Office 365, and pay for Xbox Live, and maybe subscribe to Groove Music (which I love btw).
And by spurring the industry on to innovate and create exciting, new, different products, they are driving that customer investment, emotionally AND financially, in a way that their competitors aren't.

Apple has become staid, and though they make great products, the only ecosystem they have is the iOS app store. They don't have a real email platform, search engine, and even their web browser is middle of the pack at best (consider their largely failed attempt at launching Safari for Windows). Their iPad line hasn't truly innovated in years, and their iPhones, though absolutely fantastic and successful, are steadily falling behind Android phones in sales. The only meaningful changes to their computer lineup has been the new 12" Macbook. You really have to go back to the launch of the original Mabook Air in 2008 to find a truly innovative move by them. (Honorable mention goes to the Mac pro, though it is more of a niche product than the Surface Book, it's not really innovative in terms of anything besides aesthetics).

Google is actually very similar to MS in that it is largely a software and services company with a few pieces of hardware running around (Nexus line of phones and tablets). But they aren't really innovating in the same way. Sure, Android is awesome, and I am nearly irreparably lodged within their ecosystem. But what are they really doing that is raising the bar? Android is iterative at best, and nothing being added to Marshmallow is really that big of a deal.

Think about it this way... when was the last time Google or Apple put out a product that caused a shift in an entire industry? Something that forced everyone else to follow suit? Something that wasn't iterative or inevitable (like screen resolution increases or switching to SSDs)?

Probably the Air in 2008.

And that's why MS is seeing itself as a "Services" company and not a "goods" company. It's easier to take risks on goods when that's not your business. Success will drive the rest of the industry to catch up, and that drives the sales of MS' services. Failures will be minimized in terms of costs, but even failures will often change the way people do things (well, sometimes, RIP Zune!).

So given the hype and the reviews and the coverage of the Surface Book even among the average joe/jane (hell the Surface Book was discussed for three days in a row on my local news station), it's already a success: People are drooling over a Windows PC again.
 
tl;dr-
MS doesn't care about hardware sales
MS wants to sell MS services
Spurring innovation is risky, but will pay off in services sales.
Part of me wants to leave Google for MS for the first time in 15 years.
 
nilepez said:
DO people like lugging an iPad Pro as a tablet? I know some people who go for the Mini, simply because the iPad Air (or whatever it's called) is too big for a tablet.

I need to go to the MS store and look at them, but if I buy a laptop, I'm leaning towards either the new XPS 15 or the Precision 15 (if dell ever puts them up on their site). I'm undecided on whether to get 4k or 2k. The latter has a lot better battery life and 15" is a small screen for 4k.
Click to expand...

In regards to the XPS lineup, from what I'm reading and being told (a co-worker has an XPS 13 with the 4K screen as well that I took a quick look at), the 4K screen on the 15 is very much worth it for the clarity, if you do any sort of reading/writing, image work, etc. Can only imagine it's just as good on the 15.
 
Laptops are woefully overpriced, I guess we picked up a bunch of Apple Refugees who want to make their laptop a spoken or unspoken financial/status bragging point. People used to do this with cars until they were regulated into appliances.
 
I love this new Surface book but, I have no need for one. :( Cannot really afford one either although they are worth the cost. (They are worth it at least considering what you are getting in them and the support you receive if you have a local Microsoft store like I do. :) ) jpm100, I am not really sure why you would consider these devices to be overpriced since the hardware that goes in them is not cheap.
 
BiH115 said:
In regards to the XPS lineup, from what I'm reading and being told (a co-worker has an XPS 13 with the 4K screen as well that I took a quick look at), the 4K screen on the 15 is very much worth it for the clarity, if you do any sort of reading/writing, image work, etc. Can only imagine it's just as good on the 15.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I've used the m3800, and the screen was nice, but I I know I had to magnify the screen by 25-50%. Hopefully W10 has improved scaling. Still want to see what configurations are available on the Precision. I'm not buying the laptop to do any serious gaming, so I could go either way.
 
jpm100 said:
Laptops are woefully overpriced, I guess we picked up a bunch of Apple Refugees who want to make their laptop a spoken or unspoken financial/status bragging point. People used to do this with cars until they were regulated into appliances.
Click to expand...

Huh? High end laptops are no more than they were in teh past and probably less (definitely less when adjusted for inflation).

It's a tool, and I know if I get one, that's why I'll get it. I couldn't care less if you (or anyone else) thinks it attractive or cool. And to be honest, I don't know many who buy them for that reason.
 
jpm100 said:
Laptops are woefully overpriced, I guess we picked up a bunch of Apple Refugees who want to make their laptop a spoken or unspoken financial/status bragging point. People used to do this with cars until they were regulated into appliances.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of cheap laptops out there. Good ones cost money.
 
heatlesssun said:
There are plenty of cheap laptops out there. Good ones cost money.
Click to expand...

They didn't use to cost the kind of money they do now.

They also use to let the better spec components filter down to near the low end and less advertised, less glamorous models for the people that knew better.

They also didnt' scalp people for double the RAM or a step up to a better CPU unless the CPU was at the top 1 or 2 position.
 
jpm100 said:
They didn't use to cost the kind of money they do now.
Click to expand...

I just don't see that. Laptops used to be a good deal more expensive. Devices like the Surface Book, which have been around for some time, the top end ones from companies like Motion Computing were WAY more than the Surface Book for top end specs.

The last laptop hybrid device I bought before the Surface Book was a fully speced out Lenovo x220 swivel hinge convertible. Core i7-2640M I believe, 8 GB, 320 GB 7200 RPM mechanical drive, around $2200 including tax. The i7/8 GB/ 256 GB Surface Book is $2099 for including tax in my area it would cost roughly the same in nominal dollars which when adjusted for inflation the Surface Book would actually end up a bit cheaper.

And in virtually single way the Surface Book is a far superior machine, at least from what I've read. Much faster, much better battery life, much better screen, thinner, better built, the whole shebang. The only thing the x220t might do better is work in the lap as it's swivel hinge that has all of the weight in the base.

The Surface Book for what it is priced within historical norms. But these kinds of devices have always been priced considerably higher than conventional laptops. But some are willing to pay the premium for the flexibility.

I think that's why a lot of people want Microsoft to just make a conventional clamshell laptop. That would reduce the cost for features that many that like the quality of the Surface Book don't want or need. It is an interesting point. But a conventional Surface Book in the price of range of OEM ultraportables would have to really piss them off. They'll stomach something low volume and high price like the Surface line.

jpm100 said:
They also didnt' scalp people for double the RAM or a step up to a better CPU unless the CPU was at the top 1 or 2 position.
Click to expand...

You've always paid a premium in upgrades. Maybe not like the Surface Book but hybrids were always worse in this. I guess at the end of the day many want something like a $500 Surface Book. Laptop quality has improved considerably over the years even in the lower range but you're never going to get top end state of the art designs for $500 in laptops. Or anything else.
 
jpm100 said:
They didn't use to cost the kind of money they do now.

They also use to let the better spec components filter down to near the low end and less advertised, less glamorous models for the people that knew better.

They also didnt' scalp people for double the RAM or a step up to a better CPU unless the CPU was at the top 1 or 2 position.
Click to expand...

Yes they did. When I was in college, my mother's laptops always cost over 2 grand. Laptops are cheaper than they once were. However, there are a lot of cheaper/mid priced options that weren't around 20 or 30 years ago.

You also pay a premium for these ultra portable devices. Is it worth it? I'd have to have a normal notebook and an ultra portable side by side to know for sure, but there are plenty of inexpensive laptops out there for those that want that. MS is trying to push better design out there in hopes that other companies will follow suit. And honestly, companies don't make much (if anything) on cheap hardware.
 
heatlesssun said:
I think that's why a lot of people want Microsoft to just make a conventional clamshell laptop. That would reduce the cost for features that many that like the quality of the Surface Book don't want or need. It is an interesting point. But a conventional Surface Book in the price of range of OEM ultraportables would have to really piss them off. They'll stomach something low volume and high price like the Surface line.
Click to expand...

If you want that, why not buy a Dell XPS 12 or 15 (or when it comes out the Precision 12/15 with "Infinity Edge"? I'm not sure why MS needs to put out something that already exists. The reviews I've read of the new XP/Precision laptops say it compares favorably to the Macs and MS worked with dell to nail the drivers for the new touch pad.

Those are the devices I'm leaning towards. To me, 12" is too small for a laptop and too big for a tablet.
 
nilepez said:
If you want that, why not buy a Dell XPS 12 or 15 (or when it comes out the Precision 12/15 with "Infinity Edge"? I'm not sure why MS needs to put out something that already exists. The reviews I've read of the new XP/Precision laptops say it compares favorably to the Macs and MS worked with dell to nail the drivers for the new touch pad.

Those are the devices I'm leaning towards. To me, 12" is too small for a laptop and too big for a tablet.
Click to expand...

From what I've perceived from Surface Book reviews, even ones that weren't very positive, is that the SB is just kick ass. Not that it's a new idea or flawless but that it pushes the boundaries, ones including Apple is not pushing at least in the x86 desktop OS space these days.

While the first two Surface Pros where meh, the SP3 and 4 and now the Surface Book are now darlings. Laptops are the most popular real productivity device and people simply want Microsoft to take the engineering chops it has shown lately into a pure conventional laptop.

Not saying they should, at this point it would be a bad idea. Personally I love that Microsoft is not putting so much effort into my favorite form factor, convertible devices. Fixed hinged devices are still pretty popular and it's best for Microsoft and its OEMs for Microsoft to stay out of that category for now.
 
I get what they're saying, but the reviews for the XPS and Precision devices are also very positive. I really don't care if MS gets in it or not, there are good devices out there.
 
nilepez said:
I get what they're saying, but the reviews for the XPS and Precision devices are also very positive. I really don't care if MS gets in it or not, there are good devices out there.
Click to expand...
I like the Dell XPS 13. The touchpad could be better in my opinion, otherwise it's great.
 
nilepez said:
Is that the new model? I read that it's good (though I've never used a touch pad that I liked).
Click to expand...
The last model based on Broadwell. And maybe it's just me, but as it doesn't have dedicated left and right mouse buttons, I find myself accidentally left-clicking when I meant to right-click and vice versa. Otherwise it's not bad.
 
ccman said:
The last model based on Broadwell. And maybe it's just me, but as it doesn't have dedicated left and right mouse buttons, I find myself accidentally left-clicking when I meant to right-click and vice versa. Otherwise it's not bad.
Click to expand...

Yeah I get that. I've used the M3800 and that happens. The new models are supposed to have a much improved touchpad that is almost as good as Apples (not that I've used there either).
 
ccman said:
The last model based on Broadwell. And maybe it's just me, but as it doesn't have dedicated left and right mouse buttons, I find myself accidentally left-clicking when I meant to right-click and vice versa. Otherwise it's not bad.
Click to expand...

Ya, I'm not a fan of these new single piece left/right click buttons. It's probably cheaper to produce, but I feel it's not going away.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top