Microsoft Announces Surface Book

[heatlesssun]

By 'industrial' you mean 'boring'?

By industrial design I mean industrial design. Solid metal chassis in laptops for instance. There's really not a lot you can do to improve or change the looks of those, they are what they are. It's the weight and durability and clean aesthetics that have made MacBooks a standard bearer. But there's nothing magical about it, it's just a design and process that work and no one has anything better currently.

So I give Apple credit for pushing this industrial design for laptops. But even though the looks are similar, the process of these designs is still very different as Apple uses aluminum as it's cheaper and easier to use this way and Microsoft uses magnesium alloy which is more expensive and difficult to use but is slightly lighter with equivalent strength.

 

[mi7chy]

So.. I mean that looks dead on like a macbook pro retina 13". I mean the similarities are uncanny. They made the keys are grey instead of black, but that touch pad, the lip for you to open the lid. The entire body style.

Get over it. Macbooks are a knock off of the 1999 Sony VAIO.

 

[krotch]

Apple's industrial design. AKA, metal version of what was available during then. Look at their first industrial design laptop. The titanium Powerbook G4 looked like a Dell. The aluminum Powerbook G4 looked like a Dell. It was just made of metal. Then take that design and keep making it thinner over the years.

Now you have what's out today. A metal thin version of an old Dell. My Dell Inspiron 5000e looks like a thicker black plastic version, that preceded them by a couple years. Do I care who came out with the design? Not really. As long as I don't have to see crap like the Powerbook G3s or iBook G3s ever again.

I would like to see something similar to the Luce Solar Panel Powered PC become a reality. That thing looks awesome, even though it's not real.

 

[Krolik]

skylake chip, glass touchpad (apple...), grey body, etc, screams MacBook pro to me.

then again, for the price you get two devices: a laptop and a surface as the thing undocks, that's pretty cool.

Are you suggesting that Apple is the only one who can use the color grey now? I know they patented the color white as if they invented it...just like all their other "inventions" lol. Same with Skylake chip, Apple didn't invent it.

The Surface book is 50% faster than the MacBook Pro...or so they say. I have no proof other than their words.

 

[heatlesssun]

Are you suggesting that Apple is the only one who can use the color grey now? I know they patented the color white as if they invented it...just like all their other "inventions" lol. Same with Skylake chip, Apple didn't invent it.

The Surface book is 50% faster than the MacBook Pro...or so they say. I have no proof other than their words.

Whatever they look like the Surface Book and MacBook Pro are radically different devices.

 

[ccman]

Whatever they look like the Surface Book and MacBook Pro are radically different devices.

I disagree with the term "radically" in "radically different devices." I also think that you've been downplaying the innovation of the device.

How "radically" different can the device be if it can be used for the same purposes, uses the same or similar hardware, is roughly the same size and shape, and can run the same programs and operating system? As a metaphor, you could call this Microsoft's iPhone to Apple's iPod Touch. The iPhone and iPod Touch are very similar devices, but the iPhone has more capabilities. You can run Windows 10 on both a Macbook Pro and a Surface Book. You could even conceivably run OS X on a Surface Book as a hackintosh.Conceivably they use the same processor, chipset, SSD, memory, and interfaces. One just lacks the ability to be used as a tablet with a pen and touch. I could see if one was integrated into a jumbo-tron and the other a compute stick with the same or similar hardware, but that's just not the case.

On the other hand, while you can point to other convertible devices and other devices that look the same, I don't think you can point to a device that it's copying. Aspects of the Surface Book are unique overall, and aspects of the Surface Book have been seen elsewhere but make the Surface Book unique from other offerings. I'm not sure if being able to switch between integrated graphics in tablet to discrete graphics in laptop, but it's the first I'd seen of it. The screen looks more like a tablet to me than a screen.

Maybe a more coherent argument would be to argue it's either completely ("radically") unique or completely derivative for this post.

Again, that being said, I don't picture myself buying one.To me, a desktop, a laptop, a tablet, and a phone are discrete devices. I don't want to connect my phone to a monitor, keyboard, and mouse and call it a computer a la continuum. I use my tablet as an entertainment device. I don't touch or write on my laptop screen. If I did, I would have to clean it. I don't seriously game on my phone, tablet or laptop, even though I may play casual games on them. I am open to the possibility that one day I may do everything from a convertible, 4-in-1 device (with softphone), but right now, I like having these (artificial though they may be) boundaries.

I could use my bed as a desk, for eating, couch, and bed. I prefer having separate things for those functions, if possible.

 

[Modred189]

I disagree with the term "radically" in "radically different devices." I also think that you've been downplaying the innovation of the device.

How "radically" different can the device be if it can be used for the same purposes, uses the same or similar hardware, is roughly the same size and shape, and can run the same programs and operating system?

You are vastly understating the differences.
Formfactor-
13"Macbook Pro:
Premium laptop with integrated graphics (albeit high end ones).

Surface book:
Premium laptop with dedicated graphics
Detachable screen for tablet use
Active stylus

Use Cases-
Macbook pro-
Laptop

Surface Book-
Laptop
Tablet

Essentially, the Surface Pro can do everything the Macbook pro can do, do it better, AND do everything an iPad Pro can do and do it better.

 

[ccman]

You are vastly understating the differences.
Formfactor-
13"Macbook Pro:
Premium laptop with integrated graphics (albeit high end ones).

Surface book:
Premium laptop with dedicated graphics
Detachable screen for tablet use
Active stylus

Use Cases-
Macbook pro-
Laptop

Surface Book-
Laptop
Tablet

Essentially, the Surface Pro can do everything the Macbook pro can do, do it better, AND do everything an iPad Pro can do and do it better.

Surface Pro?

 

[Modred189]

Surface Pro?

Oops, typo. Fixed! (thanks!)

 

[Modred189]

DAMNIT, no edit. I meant Surface Book there at the end.

 

[ScottSwing]

Is it quad core?

 

[ccman]

You are vastly understating the differences.
Formfactor-
13"Macbook Pro:
Premium laptop with integrated graphics (albeit high end ones).

Surface book:
Premium laptop with dedicated graphics
Detachable screen for tablet use
Active stylus

Use Cases-
Macbook pro-
Laptop

Surface Book-
Laptop
Tablet

Essentially, the Surface Pro can do everything the Macbook pro can do, do it better, AND do everything an iPad Pro can do and do it better.

I agree on a couple of points - more capabilities (I said so in my original post), different form factor. I disagree about "vastly" or "radically" different.

We're still talking about x86-64 hardware here. If you disassembled the two, you would not say, wow those are two vastly different devices. You would say the Surface Book was more useful and capable, but you would recognize many many similar design features.

The Surface Book cannot run iOS. The Surface Book cannot execute ARM instructions. Maybe it could emulate those things.

 

[heatlesssun]

I disagree with the term "radically" in "radically different devices." I also think that you've been downplaying the innovation of the device.

How "radically" different can the device be if it can be used for the same purposes, uses the same or similar hardware, is roughly the same size and shape, and can run the same programs and operating system? As a metaphor, you could call this Microsoft's iPhone to Apple's iPod Touch. The iPhone and iPod Touch are very similar devices, but the iPhone has more capabilities. You can run Windows 10 on both a Macbook Pro and a Surface Book. You could even conceivably run OS X on a Surface Book as a hackintosh.Conceivably they use the same processor, chipset, SSD, memory, and interfaces. One just lacks the ability to be used as a tablet with a pen and touch. I could see if one was integrated into a jumbo-tron and the other a compute stick with the same or similar hardware, but that's just not the case.

On the other hand, while you can point to other convertible devices and other devices that look the same, I don't think you can point to a device that it's copying. Aspects of the Surface Book are unique overall, and aspects of the Surface Book have been seen elsewhere but make the Surface Book unique from other offerings. I'm not sure if being able to switch between integrated graphics in tablet to discrete graphics in laptop, but it's the first I'd seen of it. The screen looks more like a tablet to me than a screen.

Maybe a more coherent argument would be to argue it's either completely ("radically") unique or completely derivative for this post.

Again, that being said, I don't picture myself buying one.To me, a desktop, a laptop, a tablet, and a phone are discrete devices. I don't want to connect my phone to a monitor, keyboard, and mouse and call it a computer a la continuum. I use my tablet as an entertainment device. I don't touch or write on my laptop screen. If I did, I would have to clean it. I don't seriously game on my phone, tablet or laptop, even though I may play casual games on them. I am open to the possibility that one day I may do everything from a convertible, 4-in-1 device (with softphone), but right now, I like having these (artificial though they may be) boundaries.

I could use my bed as a desk, for eating, couch, and bed. I prefer having separate things for those functions, if possible.

Maybe "radically" is too strong. Being a long time hybrid device user I will say they are at least "very" different. If a device like the Surface Book is the correct device for someone they will use it a significant amount of the time without a physical keyboard and mouse. There's no reason to pay the price premium otherwise. That's simply not the case with a MBP and requires a completely different device in the current Apple world.

I very much appreciate what Microsoft is doing here and the innovation. Of course it's not a new idea. I have a number of devices with the same idea gathering dust. The Surface Book at least from a high level seems to execute far better than the other attempts at a hybrid laptop I've tried in the past.

 

[Modred189]

I agree on a couple of points - more capabilities (I said so in my original post), different form factor. I disagree about "vastly" or "radically" different.

We're still talking about x86-64 hardware here. If you disassembled the two, you would not say, wow those are two vastly different devices. You would say the Surface Book was more useful and capable, but you would recognize many many similar design features.

The Surface Book cannot run iOS. The Surface Book cannot execute ARM instructions. Maybe it could emulate those things.

But it doesn't need to. The Windows software platform is so vast that it puts the Apple tablet App Store (which compared to Android is massive) to complete shame. ANYTHING you can do on the iPad, you can do better on a Surface Book. Period. Gaming? Drawing? Productivity? Web browsing? And you can do a lot you CAN'T on the iPad, from high end photo editing, video creation, more immersive PC games etc. An x86 device emulating ARM, or a Windows Device (or an OSX device for that matter) emulating iOS is like an M-1 Abrams pretending to be a John Deere. It can do it, but why? THe former are so much more capable by their very nature that it makes no sense.

And you're wrong: when you disassemble the two you're going to find structures in the Surface book that are entirely missing in the Macbook pro: dedicated graphics and an active digitizer for starters. I'll give a pass on the Sky Lake cpus, since the Macbooks pros aren't' there yet, iirc.

These are personal computing devices, as a result, their USE defines the device. Given that the Surface Book is so much more capable of the

 

[ccman]

Maybe "radically" is too strong. Being a long time hybrid device user I will say they are at least "very" different. If a device like the Surface Book is the correct device for someone they will use it a significant amount of the time without a physical keyboard and mouse. There's no reason to pay the price premium otherwise. That's simply not the case with a MBP and requires a completely different device in the current Apple world.

I very much appreciate what Microsoft is doing here and the innovation. Of course it's not a new idea. I have a number of devices with the same idea gathering dust. The Surface Book at least from a high level seems to execute far better than the other attempts at a hybrid laptop I've tried in the past.

I was wrong in saying they can be used for the same purposes though. If I tried to touch or multi touch the laptop screen, I would just end up with fingerprints (Macbook Pros are quite glossy, in my experience). If I tried to use a stylus, the system would be indifferent to my actions. If I tried to remove the screen from the keyboard, I would void my AppleCare warranty. It's portable, but less portable than the Surface Pro or the Surface Book. I would have trouble taking notes standing with the Macbook Pro. I couldn't as easily show people my work. I wouldn't get as much expandability (as Macbooks tend to have less ports). The price premium I would pay on a Macbook would get me an Apple logo, Apple operating system, and Apple software. The price premium I would pay for a Surface Book would give me a slicker device with more capabilities and the ability to do high end work (or gaming) requiring a more capable graphics processor in the laptop configuration. I understand and admit that.

 

[heatlesssun]

We're still talking about x86-64 hardware here. If you disassembled the two, you would not say, wow those are two vastly different devices. You would say the Surface Book was more useful and capable, but you would recognize many many similar design features.

There would be significant differences. The compute power being in the screen for instance.

The Surface Book cannot run iOS. The Surface Book cannot execute ARM instructions. Maybe it could emulate those things.

There are a number of Android emulators for x86 platforms. I use one call DuOS from AMI. It can run a plenty of Android apps sometimes faster than lower end Android devices.

 

[ccman]

But it doesn't need to. The Windows software platform is so vast that it puts the Apple tablet App Store (which compared to Android is massive) to complete shame. ANYTHING you can do on the iPad, you can do better on a Surface Book. Period. Gaming? Drawing? Productivity? Web browsing? And you can do a lot you CAN'T on the iPad, from high end photo editing, video creation, more immersive PC games etc. An x86 device emulating ARM, or a Windows Device (or an OSX device for that matter) emulating iOS is like an M-1 Abrams pretending to be a John Deere. It can do it, but why? THe former are so much more capable by their very nature that it makes no sense.

And you're wrong: when you disassemble the two you're going to find structures in the Surface book that are entirely missing in the Macbook pro: dedicated graphics and an active digitizer for starters. I'll give a pass on the Sky Lake cpus, since the Macbooks pros aren't' there yet, iirc.

These are personal computing devices, as a result, their USE defines the device. Given that the Surface Book is so much more capable of the

I disagree. If you want an iPad for what an iPad is, there is not a comparable Windows device for that. You're the one who said "USE defines the device", not me. An iPad is a much simpler device and a Windows device just isn't. You're not going to give a child or the elderly an M-1 Abrams tank. You might give them a hot wheels or RC version of one. No doubt a Microsoft Surface Pro or Surface Book is up to the tasks.

They are not that different or alien from each other. The difference between a Macbook and a Surface is not the same as the difference between a car and a book. One is vastly different from the other and the other just is not.

 

[ccman]

There would be significant differences. The compute power being in the screen for instance.

There are a number of Android emulators for x86 platforms. I use one call DuOS from AMI. It can run a plenty of Android apps sometimes faster than lower end Android devices.

I don't disagree with the second point. However, a house with the master bedroom upstairs is not significantly different than a house with the master bedroom downstairs. A mansion is not radically different from a house.

I do not own a Windows or Apple tablet. I believe most would find an Apple tablet to be a more entertaining and intuitive experience and a Windows tablet to be a more productive and useful experience. Does it have to be this way? No. Is it this way? You and Modred189 may disagree but many believe it is.

 

[RanceJustice]

They FINALLY have added a discrete GPU into the thing! I've been rather annoyed with the amount of $1500+ "premium" laptops that are stuck on Intel HD graphics. The real question is now what Nvidia GPU is residing in the highest end configurations? I really hope they weren't so castrated by the thought of the thing being a hair thicker or heavier that they jammed it with some low or mid-end GPU. If they did the smart thing and equipped it with a mid-high end GPU (ie like a GTX 970 or 980, both with a lot of VRAM) then it seriously goes on my list for looking into a laptop purchase. I hope microsoft looks into what companies like Razer , Asus, and MSI have done with "luxury, discrete GPU gaming touch-compatible laptops" recently.

I'll be keeping my eyes on the Surface Book, especially to see how its hardware is supported with Linux. At least this is a potential step in the right direction that will bring others along.

 

[heatlesssun]

I disagree. If you want an iPad for what an iPad is, there is not a comparable Windows device for that.

I've seen plenty of kids pick up a Windows 8.x/10 tablet and have no issues using just as easily an iPad. Granted x86 Windows devices are inherently complex. However if one lived just in Windows tablet mode, use only store apps and didn't use the file system the experience wouldn't be that more complex. The big difference between Windows tablets and iPads is the iPad's much larger tablet software ecosystem. That said, many of those apps are wrappers for web sites, school apps, etc. Purely on off and disposable things. That said, Windows still needs those kinds of apps.

 

[heatlesssun]

I don't disagree with the second point. However, a house with the master bedroom upstairs is not significantly different than a house with the master bedroom downstairs. A mansion is not radically different from a house.

Hybrid laptops are much more difficult to make than conventional clamshells and there are things, sometimes tiny that are big. Take for instance the hinge on the Surface Book. There's not a hinge in history that's gotten this much attention. Not that there haven't been very interesting hinges on hybrid laptops like Lenovo's Yoga line. But in two days I honestly can't think of a laptop hinge that's been talked about this much ever. That hinge is radically different from anything prior. You are correct in that's not a lot of fundamental differences in the guts of x86 compute hardware. But there are very significant differences the physical and mechanical engineering of good hybrid and conventional laptops due to the hybrid demands.

I do not own a Windows or Apple tablet. I believe most would find an Apple tablet to be a more entertaining and intuitive experience and a Windows tablet to be a more productive and useful experience. Does it have to be this way? No. Is it this way? You and Modred189 may disagree but many believe it is.

I agree. But the difference on the tablet entertainment side are due to the iPad's much better software ecosystem. It's just a matter of writing apps for Windows, there are no fundamental limitation in Windows to bring the vast majority of those apps over. I don't think iOS would be able to natively handle XCode or Visual Studio or a relational database, etc. without structural changes to the OS. Windows 10, for all of it's faults, is a kitchen sink OS. It can be the handle all types of mainstream computing scenarios natively.

 

[Ur_Mom]

I've seen plenty of kids pick up a Windows 8.x/10 tablet and have no issues using just as easily an iPad. Granted x86 Windows devices are inherently complex. However if one lived just in Windows tablet mode, use only store apps and didn't use the file system the experience wouldn't be that more complex. The big difference between Windows tablets and iPads is the iPad's much larger tablet software ecosystem. That said, many of those apps are wrappers for web sites, school apps, etc. Purely on off and disposable things. That said, Windows still needs those kinds of apps.

Windows 10, for all of it's faults, is a kitchen sink OS. It can be the handle all types of mainstream computing scenarios natively.

These two are huge. While a child can pick up and iPad or Windows device and use it fairly easily, the Windows device will allow an adult to grab it and do a TON more with it. An iPad is still limited to that tablet mode (which, admittedly has some great and powerful apps... Just nothing in comparison to a real desktop app).

That's the beef I have with my iPad. It's excellent. But, there is a brick wall with productivity. There comes a place where you just cannot do things. The Surface Pro (and other hybrids) allow you to do nearly everything you can do at a typical desktop.

With our sales team, we give them a laptop and an iPad. We are strongly pushing for a Surface Pro. They have good reason to have a tablet, but they need the desktop functionality of the laptop. 2 devices. The SP (and other hybrids) gives them a lot more with a single device.

Surface Book is similar. It's another hybrid system. It's a good replacement for someone carrying a laptop and a tablet and want that single device. A bit expensive for my blood, but it's pretty high quality, too.

 

[heatlesssun]

The real question is now what Nvidia GPU is residing in the highest end configurations?

I really hope they weren't so castrated by the thought of the thing being a hair thicker or heavier that they jammed it with some low or mid-end GPU. If they did the smart thing and equipped it with a mid-high end GPU (ie like a GTX 970 or 980, both with a lot of VRAM) then it seriously goes on my list for looking into a laptop purchase. I hope microsoft looks into what companies like Razer , Asus, and MSI have done with "luxury, discrete GPU gaming touch-compatible laptops" recently.

I was listening to Windows Weekly just now. Mary Jo Foley and Paul Thurrott get a lot of access to Microsoft and have good info generally. The GPU is a custom part and the stuff on the web had been indicating it's a 960m or possible 950m. But it looks like is more custom than that. It'll be interesting what Windows reports it as. As for being hair thicker or heavier. NO, NO and did I say NO! I know this is hardware performance enthusiast site but again, no! The thickness, weight and battery life on these kinds of devices is paramount and cutting back performance to do it is just what has to be done. And the reason is simple. It's easy to buy big bulky powerful laptops. They're everywhere in comparison to something like a Surface Book.

I'll be keeping my eyes on the Surface Book, especially to see how its hardware is supported with Linux. At least this is a potential step in the right direction that will bring others along.

Native Linux support? Yeah, not going to happen first party.

 

[ccman]

Let's just say I do not understand your (heatlesssun's) position on this issue. From your past posts, I am hearing that the Surface Book is quite similar to other Windows PC (tablet or convertible) devices of the past (to the point of being indistinguishable and nothing new) but radically, very significantly different to anything Apple, even though you think the iPad Pro will become (steal from, copy, whatever) the Microsoft Surface line in short order.

I think you would fail the field sobriety test with that version of walking a straight line. It's hard for me to distinguish this from simple Apple hatred.

You mentioned the ASUS Transformer. The ASUS Transformer line was not limited to Windows. It also ran Android.

In my mind, the days of Apple being significantly different than the "PC" (for lack of a better term) ecosystem is long gone.

 

[heatlesssun]

Let's just say I do not understand your (heatlesssun's) position on this issue. From your past posts, I am hearing that the Surface Book is quite similar to other Windows PC (tablet or convertible) devices of the past (to the point of being indistinguishable and nothing new) but radically, very significantly different to anything Apple, even though you think the iPad Pro will become (steal from, copy, whatever) the Microsoft Surface line in short order.

The Windows Tablet PC concept is nothing new, such devices have been on the market for 13 years and I've owned at least one continuously since I bought a Toshiba Portege M200 about 12 years ago IIRC. I'm not saying the Surface Book is innovative from an idea standpoint because it's clearly not. It's execution would seem to be off the charts from what I've heard this far. For this kind of device to get that kind of overwhelming positive review from sources that are normally at best "Meh" about Microsoft is why I preordered sight unseen. I may change my mind as more feedback comes but all indications are that this is the best hybrid laptop ever created by a large margin. That's an instant buy for me.

As far as Apple is concerned, do you recall the "Toaster-Refrigerator" comment by Tim Cook three years ago? http://appleinsider.com/articles/12...tyle_tablet_pc_convergence_wont_please_anyone. And Cook kind of stood by those comments last week, there's a thread about it that I think you participated in. The Surface Book is not only radical from an Apple perspective, but something they for now say is a bad idea and will never, ever do.

I think you would fail the field sobriety test with that version of walking a straight line. It's hard for me to distinguish this from simple Apple hatred.

I started a thread here back in January reporting the rumors of the iPad Pro with an optional stylus and several people accused me of the same thing.

You mentioned the ASUS Transformer. The ASUS Transformer line was not limited to Windows. It also ran Android.

Regardless these kinds of devices existed long before iOS and Android. You are correct in that the Transformer line actually started with Android devices and those seemed to flopped as they I don't think Asus sells hybrid Android devices anymore. They are selling a number of Windows based hybrids still. And my understanding is that the Windows based T100 series did well for them.

Hybrid devices have been around a long time. While Android may be the new Windows, it hasn't done well on hybrid devices or for that matter anything bigger than a phone or cheap tablet to date. Cramming a mobile OS on a device with a keyboard and sometimes trackpad is no better than the pre-Windows 8 devices that crammed a desktop only OS on tablets.

In my mind, the days of Apple being significantly different than the "PC" (for lack of a better term) ecosystem is long gone.

Considering the nature of the software and hardware that Windows supports today the Apple is very different. Apple's CEO even said just last week they have no plans to do a hybrid OS. Which would imply that they have no plans for now at least to do something like a Surface Book. Unless one considers an iPad Pro running iOS in a keyboard cover with no trackpad the same thing as a Surface Book. The drunk people you're talking about do however.

 

[RanceJustice]

I was listening to Windows Weekly just now. Mary Jo Foley and Paul Thurrott get a lot of access to Microsoft and have good info generally. The GPU is a custom part and the stuff on the web had been indicating it's a 960m or possible 950m. But it looks like is more custom than that. It'll be interesting what Windows reports it as. As for being hair thicker or heavier. NO, NO and did I say NO! I know this is hardware performance enthusiast site but again, no! The thickness, weight and battery life on these kinds of devices is paramount and cutting back performance to do it is just what has to be done. And the reason is simple. It's easy to buy big bulky powerful laptops. They're everywhere in comparison to something like a Surface Book.



Native Linux support? Yeah, not going to happen first party.

A custom GTX 960 w/4GB+ of RAM wouldn't be horrible, but a midding-grade "not really for gaming" GPU still would seem disappointing. I really think that we need hardware like this with better GPU power. As you say, there are tons of big bulky powerful laptops, I'll counter that there are tons of light and thin integrated graphics "ultrabooks/tablets etc.." - the problem for me anyway is I don't want either extreme. I want the best of both worlds and I'm willing to pay for it - luxury materials, build quality, and higher spec gaming capable hardware - some call this the "MacBook Pro" demographic, but thankfully it has expanded a bit in recent years. These days "luxury" laptops have come a long way in just about every element except the GPU, which I'd liek to see remedied.

! I'm not talking about turning it into an 18" behemoth, but simply maintaining good thermal design and if it requires a minor compromise in weight or some such to get proper cooling for a higher-end GPU, to make them. Maybe it can't cram in a GTX 980 Ti 8gb, okay, fine. However, 970 and certainly 960s should be no problem. Consider that the New Razer Blade is a "relatively thin and light" laptop of the "luxury gaming / MBP" type, yet contains a GTX 970! Asus and MSI have created 13-15" "thin and light, metal chassis, high spec all around, yet gaming-GPU" offerings as well, for instance. There still are comparatively few laptops of this type, but I think the Surface Book is actually the perfect design for putting as powerful a GPU (and other hardware) as possible because you have the option, if you care about battery life exclusively, to simply turn off the discrete GPU and/or detach it from the keyboard entirely! This gives the best of both worlds - they can bulk up the GPU, secondary battery etc.. and other elements in the "keyboard base/dock" which are segregated from the processor, motherboard, and other "core" components in the "tablet" part of it!

Oh, and with respect to Linux, I don't expect them to advertise "Hey, install Linux!", but rather if they use many standard components and chipsets, it should work out just fine. If they for one reason or another require some sort of proprietary software/firmware to get the most out of the hardware, that would be unfortunate and I'd probably pass up buying.

 

[heatlesssun]

As you say, there are tons of big bulky powerful laptops, I'll counter that there are tons of light and thin integrated graphics "ultrabooks/tablets etc.." - the problem for me anyway is I don't want either extreme.

Who doesn't want the best of both worlds. As I have said before I've been in the Windows hybrid space for a long time and while performance has been an issue for these kinds of devices, it's not nearly the issue it has been in the past. Aesthetics, build quality, weight, thickness, battery life, thermals and conversion are much bigger issues. Not that performance isn't an issue but how many people these days even on this forum say that years old technology is plenty fast for them and others around them. More performance is always great but it's simply not the driving force for phones, tablets or PCs these days.

I'm not talking about turning it into an 18" behemoth, but simply maintaining good thermal design and if it requires a minor compromise in weight or some such to get proper cooling for a higher-end GPU, to make them. Maybe it can't cram in a GTX 980 Ti 8gb, okay, fine. However, 970 and certainly 960s should be no problem.

If American football is a game of inches this is a one of millimeters.

Consider that the New Razer Blade is a "relatively thin and light" laptop of the "luxury gaming / MBP" type, yet contains a GTX 970!

It's a pound heavier. It's not a hybrid and what's the battery life? That's not to say it's a bad machine, looks pretty awesome. But it's in the same kind of price range as the Surface Book and that kind of device. It's something else. It's a gaming laptop, not a hybrid laptop.

Oh, and with respect to Linux, I don't expect them to advertise "Hey, install Linux!", but rather if they use many standard components and chipsets, it should work out just fine. If they for one reason or another require some sort of proprietary software/firmware to get the most out of the hardware, that would be unfortunate and I'd probably pass up buying.

There's lots not standard about the Surface Book. Where for instance would there be standard drivers for the screen release mechanism? If you're Microsoft why in the hell would you give a rats ass about desktop Linux? Windows phones are doing just about as well in the phone space and many consider them a lost cause. There's just not reason for Microsoft to support a group of folks that are always hostile to them when they represent a group from all estimates no larger than the phones they make that are considered a failure. Just pointing out the realities.

 

[krotch]

Reading different reviews of the Razer Blade and it's 4-5 hours average use. I wouldn't mind a more high end graphics card in the Surface Book, but it's also not a make/break deal for me. As I know what the Surface Book is designed to do. Standard laptop duties, not gaming.

Also the screen release mechanism can also be released manually. Don't have to do it through the software. Either way, I don't and wouldn't expect MS to care about anything Linux for their hardware.

 

[heatlesssun]

Also the screen release mechanism can also be released manually. Don't have to do it through the software. Either way, I don't and wouldn't expect MS to care about anything Linux for their hardware.

The button press is manual, but there's a several things going on with that process. The muscle wire and the GPU switching and notifications of apps that have it locked.

 

[krotch]

The button press is manual, but there's a several things going on with that process. The muscle wire and the GPU switching and notifications of apps that have it locked.

I would assume that would be required when Windows is up and running, but when the device is turned off, it'd simply just unlock. No need to tell the OS anything, as it's not turned on.

Which finds me as odd that no one seems to have tried undocking it while it's not turned on. I'd hate to have to turn it on just to undock it.

 

[heatlesssun]

I would assume that would be required when Windows is up and running, but when the device is turned off, it'd simply just unlock. No need to tell the OS anything, as it's not turned on.

Which finds me as odd that no one seems to have tried undocking it while it's not turned on. I'd hate to have to turn it on just to undock it.

My understanding is that the tablet section cannot be removed or plugged in to the base without power.

 

[krotch]

My understanding is that the tablet section cannot be removed or plugged in to the base without power.

Well, that's a pretty horrible design flaw. I was kind of expecting something to be wrong with it, since it's MS's 1st design. They tend to be flawed in some way. Eventually the 2nd or 3rd designs is the "must have".

For me, it'd be a deal breaker. I don't care about not being able to dock it while it's off, but I sure do want to be able to undock it while it's off. I do that all the time with my Surface Pro 3. I'm always randomly docking/undocking it from the dock or keyboard while it's on or off.

 

[heatlesssun]

Well, that's a pretty horrible design flaw. I was kind of expecting something to be wrong with it, since it's MS's 1st design. They tend to be flawed in some way. Eventually the 2nd or 3rd designs is the "must have".

While the Surface Book is a 1st gen product, hybrid hinges and docking mechanisms are a long standing design issue in the world of hybrid laptops. While I do wonder about the need for power I'm not sure how GPU switching would work well otherwise. From what I've seen about this solution, it's top notch. There have been complaints about the aesthetics and gap left when the device is closed but the actual conversion process and the weight balancing achieved by the hinge rolling out work very well from early reports.

For me, it'd be a deal breaker. I don't care about not being able to dock it while it's off, but I sure do want to be able to undock it while it's off. I do that all the time with my Surface Pro 3. I'm always randomly docking/undocking it from the dock or keyboard while it's on or off.

I have thought about this scenario. So you turn it on. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me and I may not even be correct about this. I'm pumped about this thing. It seems to address virtually all of the long standing issues with hybrid laptops and execute well. The proof will be in the pudding. I'll be putting this thing through the ringer when I get mine.

 

[krotch]

For me, it reminds me of things like the Alienware external graphics docks for their laptops. You dock up and turn on, starts using the external card, instead of the internal one. So I'm sure it's possible to do, just maybe not possible in a thin design like the Surface Book. That or MS simply doesn't know how to do it yet.

Many times I've just reached into my bag, disconnected the keyboard off my SP3 and only pulled the SP3 out of the bag, while the keyboard never exits the bag. Anytime I fly on a plane, I always do that. As I don't want to pull it out of the bag, disconnect the keyboard, then hunch back over to put the keyboard away.

That or when I leave the house, I yank the keyboard off and just stuff the tablet in my bag and roll. Cause I know I won't be using the keyboard. Other times, I'm getting in my car, pull out the tablet, yank off the keyboard, and put it on my mount, then fire it up. Probably 50% of the time, I'm pulling the keyboard off while it's turned off.

Well, hopefully some more intensive reviews start popping up with the full capabilities. Might just email MS about it or something.

 

[ccman]

Considering the nature of the software and hardware that Windows supports today the Apple is very different. Apple's CEO even said just last week they have no plans to do a hybrid OS. Which would imply that they have no plans for now at least to do something like a Surface Book. Unless one considers an iPad Pro running iOS in a keyboard cover with no trackpad the same thing as a Surface Book. The drunk people you're talking about do however.

I've got a few speculative questions. If there were no Apple iPhone and Apple iPad (and Google Android), would Windows 8 have been the same? If there were no Apple Macbook Air, would there have been an Intel Ultrabook?

My take was the Surface was a reverse "killer app" scenario. There was no "killer hardware" for Windows 8. Similarly important, a new market for tablets sprung up and was proven by other companies that didn't exist with Windows 8.

I don't know the numbers and couldn't find information in a cursory search. What market share do Windows tablets have compared to Android tablets and iOS tablets? What is the Windows tablets slice of the total tablet market? What slice of the Windows tablets market does Microsoft have as a hardware manufacturer (or designer)? How does Microsoft compare to Apple, Samsung, Google (Nexus), etc.? How does the tablet market compare to the portable computing market? What is the size of the Windows tablet market compared to the total Windows market? I'm interested in any information, be it speculative, estimated, or precise. In my mind, it's clearly a growth market, especially compared to desktops and traditional laptops. Also, how much of this is "next big thing" and how much is sustainable in the long term (are we in the iPad boom period and will catch up with where the iPad is now sometime)?

 

[heatlesssun]

I've got a few speculative questions. If there were no Apple iPhone and Apple iPad (and Google Android), would Windows 8 have been the same? If there were no Apple Macbook Air, would there have been an Intel Ultrabook?

My take was the Surface was a reverse "killer app" scenario. There was no "killer hardware" for Windows 8. Similarly important, a new market for tablets sprung up and was proven by other companies that didn't exist with Windows 8.

I don't know the numbers and couldn't find information in a cursory search. What market share do Windows tablets have compared to Android tablets and iOS tablets? What is the Windows tablets slice of the total tablet market? What slice of the Windows tablets market does Microsoft have as a hardware manufacturer (or designer)? How does Microsoft compare to Apple, Samsung, Google (Nexus), etc.? How does the tablet market compare to the portable computing market? What is the size of the Windows tablet market compared to the total Windows market? I'm interested in any information, be it speculative, estimated, or precise. In my mind, it's clearly a growth market, especially compared to desktops and traditional laptops. Also, how much of this is "next big thing" and how much is sustainable in the long term (are we in the iPad boom period and will catch up with where the iPad is now sometime)?

Ah, the ebb and flow of markets. The hybrid devices that we are seeing today in the Windows world have been there a long time and are directly descended from Windows XP Tablet PC Edition devices. But they've historically had all sorts of issues, one big one being that they were running a version of Windows that was only for the desktop. The enter the iPad that put a touch first OS on tablets and then many began to think that tablets would kill of Tablet PCs and furthermore laptops in general.

To some extent that has happened. PC sales are still in the toilet hitting dropping almost 8% this quarter compared to a year ago. But that's not all from the influence of tablets that are dropping as fast. Indeed a big problem with mobile OS tablets is that they haven't been particularly effective at being traditional productivity devices. And so we've come full circle on this and the old concept of the Tablet PC has taken off again because while tablets are great, a PC still does many thing it can't. Not a huge market but growing.

As for Windows tablets in general, I think there somewhere in the high single digits of total market, like 8% or so, of all tablet sales. Depends on how it get's counted. IDC and Gartner count tablets differently. Devices with detachable keyboards I think are counted as tablets by Gartner but not by IDC. I may have that backwards.

 

[ccman]

The Surface Book is getting good reviews so far:
Ars Technica - Surface Book review: The hybrid that really does replace your laptop
Yahoo - Surface Book takes on MacBook Pro — and wins

Caveats on Ars for Microsoft Surface Pro 4 - The tablet that still doesn’t quite replace your laptop
(Yahoo includes a similar caveat)

 

[krotch]

I'll wait to see how well the hinge lasts over time.

 

[heatlesssun]

So for from what I've seen in the reviews it looks like most people are impressed. There was a sort of review from Mary Jo Foley who's made a point of the Surface Pro line not being very "lapable" and she's saying the Surface Book doesn't work in her lap. The top heaviness seems to be the biggest issue and the wobbling from that for some. Others are saying it's not a problem.

It's also interesting to hear how many have said the Surface Book is heavy which is odd because it's pretty much the same weight as the rMBP 13" which I don't think I've ever heard called heavy. But it does seem the weight and size of the tablet section is impressing folks. It's almost the same weight as the iPad Pro with another .6" inches of diagonal screen size running up to a Core i7 and less than a 1 mm thicker. That's kind of amazing. Of course the battery life as a standalone tablet is just three to four hours. But it can be connected to power directly as a tablet. I wonder if the dock would work in the tablet section since it's the same power connector.

Very much looking forward to getting mine hopefully early next week.

 

[krotch]

Being "lapable" is subjective. I had a HP TM2T that I wouldn't consider lapable. I tend to lean a laptop monitor way back, so the thing would just tilt. I'd find a Surface Book to be even worse, as it's more top heavy. Course, unlike the TM2T, I'd just detach the keyboard and use it in tablet mode. Not like I need to or even would want to be typing a lot with a laptop on my lap.