Valve throws it's weight behind Vulkan.

[Deleted member 83233]

How is that not impressive anyway? Games are great, and why a lot of us come here, but this is cool because it includes AND goes beyond games. (while still having a lot of very attractive features for gaming devs, and other types as well)

The list of companies on board in itself is still impressive. Even as far as these types of consortiums usually go. It doesn't guarantee success in all areas, but it's still a very large list of very influential (and high-end in many cases) companies that have a lot to offer something like this. The fact that they have processor companies, programmable logic companies, high end audio IC companies, network companies, graphics, high-end animation studios, and game companies cooperating is pretty big, if it's being managed well, and the involvement of these companies is more than just sticking their name on a list. I guess we'll see. I'm still impressed.

 

[Semantics]

I've just been saying in relation to this thread and the futures of games DirectX is here to stay. Vulkan does alot but it's not a replacement for making games especially on windows.

 

[Deleted member 83233]

I've just been saying in relation to this thread and the futures of games DirectX is here to stay. Vulkan does alot but it's not a replacement for making games especially on windows.

Well, you're correct there. It's a tool. It has to be used effectively by devs. There's nothing to stop someone from making a good game with it, (provided it doesn't suck ) I don't think it's going to necessarily hurt Microsoft either, but it will be another tool available to those who want or need to use it. For multi-platform devs, or devs pushing out into new territory, new controllers, new headsets, etc. this could be huge. For a typical AAA dev that's set in their traditions, maybe DX is more their speed. (then you have all its other potential uses too, which will make it more relevant, and keep things moving, assuming the best of course)

Game developers used to offer a selection of renderers/apis to the user too in the past, that they could select based on the hardware they ran. Unreal for example worked with Glide, DX, and OpenGL. Each API ran better on different hardware, even though technically all of the above would work on most hardware at the time. It would be nice to unify everything, but that's always an option. Say for example, (this is totally arbitrary) AMD worked better on Vulkan while Nvidia worked better on DX12. (that's probably backwards, but... ) choose the API in the game, be done with it. More work for devs though I guess. Screw those guys anyway

You know, I could see this being pretty useful to Nintendo (though I don't see them on the list...) Due to their atypical hardware choices, this could be leveraged quite successfully for them. I'd be willing to bet that at least 5 companies for that list are relevant to Nintendo's current devices if not more.

Edit: On closer inspection, I use products from 5 of those companies for my own projects.

 

[haste.]

Not sure if trolling or serious. I am not sure you know the point of steamos. It's not going to be heavily marketed towards pc gamers, and steambox and controllers have Not been released yet. Why would pc gamers greatly adopt something that already runs on their pc, but with less functionality and still in beta? Also I am sure that vulkan will be on windows. If it is, there is no point in developing for both vulkan and dx12 especially if you have to pay license fees to distribute dx12 games. And also, with the ability to be used on the ps4, that will give developers more insentive reason to not support Xbox. If I can release a game with no real effort for ps4, pc, and steambox while it take more effort, which cost money, and have to pay more To release on Xbox because of licensing... Why would I have any thing to do with Xbox?

Warning: TLR

A tiny bit of trolling, but a lot of it is how markets work, history, and logic. A lot of what you posted is difficult to dechiper, but I will elaborate much further in an effort to answer your questions.

To the trolling, "SteamOS failure" - SteamOS has been released in beta for nearly 2 years, devices are being sold, and it has nearly no following. The concept was great, but there are competitors that do it better (consoles), lack of compelling software, lack of compelling "Steamboxes"/preconfig hardware that is much more expensive than a console with lesser specs/multiple specs that will confuse the average consumer... releasing a controller that is getting mixed reception likely will not change all that. On top of that Linux graphics drivers have never been optimized and Valve in all their wisdom should have been dumping funds to create a software infrastructure to benefit their OS... I guess they figured it said Steam so they used the Field of Dreams theory, "If you build it they will come." Saying it's in beta is a misnomer as it likely be in beta for a very long time.

Regarding the PS4 there have been a lot of "shoulds" and "possibly coulds" but I have not seen any definitive evidence that Vulkan will be supported on the PS4. It actually sounds like Sony's API is lower level and it would reduce performance and increase complexity *see link. Although I have limited sources for that.

This reminds me a lot of Mantle. The API to kill off DX. People that don't like the business strategies of MS hop on the new API bandwagon and truly believe it will happen - please don't take that as that I support MS's business model as I often don't, it's just a common trend. Vulkan will certainly be on Windows but there is only one game announced for it even though it's been available for over a year, not ironically it's a Valve game.

I do know that successful market disruptors are few and far between and there will have to be a tangible profit motivation to move. Another post mentioned the "1,000" games that have been ported or built for Linux/OpenGL. Unfortunately there are few AAA titles in that list and most of those that are supported have been ported after DX sales start to slow in an effort to maximize profits in a new market; usually at a reduced price tag. Linux, where Vulkan will shine, is wonderful for small indie studios and those consumers that are price conscious, but the big time devs get their bread buttered by people using Windows or consoles. Large studios deciding to migrate from DX and build for only Vulkan would be like a manufacturing industry leader focusing solely on emerging markets. While focusing on the emerging market they are also ignoring the ease of porting between the current console generation (at least XBone) and PC.

Also remember there is always a counterpoint, for example wccftech commenting on the holes in Valve's promotion:
http://wccftech.com/vulkan-reason-create-dx12-backend-valves-ginsburg/

Or the chances of PS4 supporting Vulkan?
http://wccftech.com/brad-wardell-ps4-support-vulkan/

All that said I honestly don't really care who wins. As long as it works, is efficient and continues to progress software past hardware the name of the API is insignificant. Valve's opinion should not matter as it has a highly vested interest in this succeeding. It's also unlikely Vulkan will overtake DX12 for all the reasons listed.

 

[haste.]

Support discontinuing for Windows 7 in 2020 isn't going to force people onto Windows 10 anymore than all those XP users were "forced" to go Windows 7 or 8. That said, a lot can change in five years, and not necessarily in Microsoft's favor. A paradigm shift in cross-platform graphics API is a little bigger than simply "a few people switching to Linux".



Newsflash: SteamOS hasn't launched yet. Because by that logic, Xbox One and PS4 were also massive failures before they launched. It's development is simply happening more transparently than when developers were given early access to Xbox One & PS4 devkits under NDA. You're right that devs will go where the money is, which is why Vulkan makes more sense. If you're a developer, do you choose an API that supports Windows 10 (75-100mil) and Xbox One (14mil), or one that supports not only Windows 10 (75-100mil), but adds Windows 7, Windows 8, Linux, MacOSX (hundreds of millions collectively) plus potentially PS4 (26+ million), and Android (BILLIONS)?

You're also right that Vulkan isn't the first API to challenge DirectX, but it is the first with this much industry muscle and enthusiasm behind it, involving heavyweights too big and too numerous for Microsoft to simply bully or pay off again:

Lol - read my previous post. BTW where are you getting your XBone numbers? MS doesn't publicly post them...

Mantle had a lot of industry backing as well.

Edit: My point about sunset on Windows 7 in comparison to XP is that the market will be upgrading off 7 prior to sunset. Only the most diehard XP fans or computer illiterate users are still on XP since the sunset unless it is business related. If you are using statistics, a significant number of XP "users" are corporate entities that have essential systems that haven't been regression tested past XP so they are putting together patchwork security until they can upgrade their OS infrastructure.

 

[Deleted member 83233]

Warning: TLR

A tiny bit of trolling, but a lot of it is how markets work, history, and logic. A lot of what you posted is difficult to dechiper, but I will elaborate much further in an effort to answer your questions.

To the trolling, "SteamOS failure" - SteamOS has been released in beta for nearly 2 years, devices are being sold, and it has nearly no following. The concept was great, but there are competitors that do it better (consoles), lack of compelling software, lack of compelling "Steamboxes"/preconfig hardware that is much more expensive than a console with lesser specs/multiple specs that will confuse the average consumer... releasing a controller that is getting mixed reception likely will not change all that. On top of that Linux graphics drivers have never been optimized and Valve in all their wisdom should have been dumping funds to create a software infrastructure to benefit their OS... I guess they figured it said Steam so they used the Field of Dreams theory, "If you build it they will come." Saying it's in beta is a misnomer as it likely be in beta for a very long time.

Regarding the PS4 there have been a lot of "shoulds" and "possibly coulds" but I have not seen any definitive evidence that Vulkan will be supported on the PS4. It actually sounds like Sony's API is lower level and it would reduce performance and increase complexity *see link. Although I have limited sources for that.

This reminds me a lot of Mantle. The API to kill off DX. People that don't like the business strategies of MS hop on the new API bandwagon and truly believe it will happen - please don't take that as that I support MS's business model as I often don't, it's just a common trend. Vulkan will certainly be on Windows but there is only one game announced for it even though it's been available for over a year, not ironically it's a Valve game.

I do know that successful market disruptors are few and far between and there will have to be a tangible profit motivation to move. Another post mentioned the "1,000" games that have been ported or built for Linux/OpenGL. Unfortunately there are few AAA titles in that list and most of those that are supported have been ported after DX sales start to slow in an effort to maximize profits in a new market; usually at a reduced price tag. Linux, where Vulkan will shine, is wonderful for small indie studios and those consumers that are price conscious, but the big time devs get their bread buttered by people using Windows or consoles. Large studios deciding to migrate from DX and build for only Vulkan would be like a manufacturing industry leader focusing solely on emerging markets. While focusing on the emerging market they are also ignoring the ease of porting between the current console generation (at least XBone) and PC.

Also remember there is always a counterpoint, for example wccftech commenting on the holes in Valve's promotion:
http://wccftech.com/vulkan-reason-create-dx12-backend-valves-ginsburg/

Or the chances of PS4 supporting Vulkan?
http://wccftech.com/brad-wardell-ps4-support-vulkan/

All that said I honestly don't really care who wins. As long as it works, is efficient and continues to progress software past hardware the name of the API is insignificant. Valve's opinion should not matter as it has a highly vested interest in this succeeding. It's also unlikely Vulkan will overtake DX12 for all the reasons listed.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong as nearly all of what you said has yet to be seen. However, when you can't officially own the products on Valve's site yet because all that's available to the general populace is pre-orders, I don't see how you can draw any of the conclusions you've made yet. You can make educated guesses, but the results of that will be colored by your own perception. Yes, Steam hardware is very much in a wait and see phase, but since nobody in the general public owns their gear in an officially released capacity yet, I guess we'll need to wait to draw wide-reaching conclusions.

Mantle was made by, backed, and pushed by one company. It's hardly the same thing.

Also, on Valve's opinion, as with ALL opinions, the holder typically has a vested interest in some capacity. Opinion and objectivity rarely go hand in hand. They are a hugely influential company, and currently provide the back-bone of PC gaming for most PC players out there (give or take a few.) Their opinion DOES matter, and the fact that they're pushing the industry forward (or at least outward) in many ways matters a great deal. Whether they succeed with their latest ventures, nobody knows yet, but at least someone is doing it. I've heard a TON of people talk about buying this or that item from their upcoming hardware lineup. (even on this site)

Anyway, we'll see I suppose.

 

[DPI]

You know, I could see this being pretty useful to Nintendo (though I don't see them on the list...) Due to their atypical hardware choices, this could be leveraged quite successfully for them. I'd be willing to bet that at least 5 companies for that list are relevant to Nintendo's current devices if not more.

Funny you mention. Lo and behold, Nintendo actually joined recently, as a "contributing member". https://www.khronos.org/members/contributors/nintendo-co.-ltd

Perhaps we'll see Vulkan in the upcoming Nintendo NX devices (rumored Linux powered)

Updated member chart

 

[haste.]

I'm not saying you're right or wrong as nearly all of what you said has yet to be seen. However, when you can't officially own the products on Valve's site yet because all that's available to the general populace is pre-orders, I don't see how you can draw any of the conclusions you've made yet. You can make educated guesses, but the results of that will be colored by your own perception. Yes, Steam hardware is very much in a wait and see phase, but since nobody in the general public owns their gear in an officially released capacity yet, I guess we'll need to wait to draw wide-reaching conclusions.

Mantle was made by, backed, and pushed by one company. It's hardly the same thing.

Also, on Valve's opinion, as with ALL opinions, the holder typically has a vested interest in some capacity. Opinion and objectivity rarely go hand in hand. They are a hugely influential company, and currently provide the back-bone of PC gaming for most PC players out there (give or take a few.) Their opinion DOES matter, and the fact that they're pushing the industry forward (or at least outward) in many ways matters a great deal. Whether they succeed with their latest ventures, nobody knows yet, but at least someone is doing it. I've heard a TON of people talk about buying this or that item from their upcoming hardware lineup. (even on this site)

Anyway, we'll see I suppose.

All very valid points.

Valve's branded hardware has not been released yet. We do have a number of Steam "branded" PC's in the wild and they are not entirely competitive.

Mantle did not have the hardware support that Vulkan is getting, but AMD was able to get support from industry leaders in gaming software albeit with very limited long term success. The back and forth has been largely focused on gaming, and I'll admit I'm not well versed in Vulkan's alternative applications.

Valve has a very captive audience (evidence from this thread). If they say jump many jump. Most don't even consider their software DRM. It's a different world from when I was sitting popping in CD after CD installing Half Life many years ago. The real question will be how much influence do they have on the AAA studios. I believe, nothing but an opinion like you are pointing out, that these studios likely have deeper roots, familiarity, and confidence with MS - I may be wrong, certainly wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Anarchist4000]

Mantle did not have the hardware support that Vulkan is getting, but AMD was able to get support from industry leaders in gaming software albeit with very limited long term success.
...
I believe, nothing but an opinion like you are pointing out, that these studios likely have deeper roots, familiarity, and confidence with MS - I may be wrong, certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Considering Vulkan is OpenMantle it's hard to fault Mantle for limited hardware support. The proof of concept was created and opening it up was the next step. That seems to be where we are now. It wasn't just AMD pushing Mantle. It was the handful of game developers that wanted something different than DirectX or OpenGL.

Google adopted Vulkan for Android, Valve is pushing if for SteamOS(Linux), and other platforms are still unknown, but should be capable. The fastest growing market in gaming is handhelds, and any company with a clue should be looking to the future, not the status quo. It shouldn't be a stretch to think all of the studios pushing Mantle will be backing Vulkan either.

 

[haste.]

J3RK I can actually give a little insight for my reasoning in relation to my industry.

We are in the process of looking for a new core service/data processor. In financial services 96% of all institutions are using a product from 4 companies (this would be DX in my analogy). These 4 providers all have "updated" products but there is one that completely rebuilt a system from the ground up instead of tacking on updates on top of 20 year old software. The company that built from ground up would be DX12.

There is also a dark horse in the running. 2 industry experts, who actually founded and wrote the software that built leading products for 2 of the aforementioned companies, have created a core system that is as good if not better than the "DX12" core system. They have backing from some of the biggest names in the industry and experts I have talked to praise the design (this is Vulkan). They also have no current clients, although have at least 15 conversions scheduled in the next year. They also are MUCH less expensive to convert and run over 10 years than the "DX12" core system.

The "DX12" core system is absolutely going to provide what I need to ensure future revenue generation. The "Vulkan" core system could possibly be better, but the uncertainty of delivery and as a result the uncertainty of revenue generation is there and as of today I cannot commit funds to it. Although I'm in a different industry (and I did work in tech for a few years), I'll tell you my experiences with management is that we have universal group thought no matter the industry. There will be a few that take the dive in hopes of being an early adapter, but it's not likely they will be the large "institutions." The "Vulkan" core system has a $1B Credit Union converting as their first customer... while not Valve in comparison to my industry which would be a $100B+ bank (if not $1T+) it is still a major player in the Credit Union world. They also have a few big time players promoting them, including one of the most profitable/largest asset service companies for community banks and Credit Unions.

Consider me CD Projekt Red. Smaller company, but still there. We can't take the risk on an emerging product. We will stick with the "DX12" product, pay the premium, and have confidence that we made the right choice. If the group thought which I believe is there, other institutions will make the same decision when comparing the products.

That said, if it, "Vulkan," works those early adapters look like visionaries and have a leg up on competition. I've just seen it fail too many times.

The analogy is flawed, because the software dev's can react faster to market, but it has some similarities.

 

[haste.]

Considering Vulkan is OpenMantle it's hard to fault Mantle for limited hardware support. The proof of concept was created and opening it up was the next step. That seems to be where we are now. It wasn't just AMD pushing Mantle. It was the handful of game developers that wanted something different than DirectX or OpenGL.

Google adopted Vulkan for Android, Valve is pushing if for SteamOS(Linux), and other platforms are still unknown, but should be capable. The fastest growing market in gaming is handhelds, and any company with a clue should be looking to the future, not the status quo. It shouldn't be a stretch to think all of the studios pushing Mantle will be backing Vulkan either.

I actually wasn't faulting Mantle for limited hardware support. I was just replying to J3RK in his comment on my comparison of Mantle to Vulkan.

 

[Semantics]

Vulkan isn't Mantle adoption rate for games will be much slower, AMD isn't paying people to get it going this is going to be self driven to support games with it.

 

[jwcalla]

It's a misnomer to say there aren't OpenGL games. There are like 2,000 on Steam and who knows how many on Android and iOS. The next iteration of that will just be Vulkan.

Yeah the dinosaurs that live on inertia (EA / DICE) will still be DX only, but who cares.

 

[haste.]

It's a misnomer to say there aren't OpenGL games. There are like 2,000 on Steam and who knows how many on Android and iOS. The next iteration of that will just be Vulkan.

Yeah the dinosaurs that live on inertia (EA / DICE) will still be DX only, but who cares.

There are many games on Android, iOS, and Steam that are not DX. Nearly all of them are casual Angry Bird clones.

It's also pretty easy to go on Steam and see that there are 2936 pieces of software compatible with Linux/SteamOS. Unfortunately ~2900 of them are either casual, DLC, or tools.

You guys are funny. I don't have a problem with Vulkan, I am just trying to bring in the irrationality that is being spewed after a single Valve comment. If it is a better product bring it to market and everyone will migrate. Such blind faith is nothing more than fanboyism of a product not released (even in beta for the SteamOS defenders).

 

[DPI]

Valve's branded hardware has not been released yet. We do have a number of Steam "branded" PC's in the wild and they are not entirely competitive.

This is very valid. Valve's lack of focus on the Steambox hardware side of things has been bizarre, given how laser focused they've been in so many other aspects - the controller, the streaming device, partnering with HTC for the VR hardware, funding the Vulkan SDK, creating debugging tools that devs have asked them for. I don't understand why they haven't partnered with NVIDIA or AMD or an OEM with supply chain expertise to custom fab an official Steambox and chiseling the price to $499, without necessarily cutting out third parties and boutique builders from the party.

 

[DPI]

Vulkan isn't Mantle adoption rate for games will be much slower, AMD isn't paying people to get it going this is going to be self driven to support games with it.

Thats a bit Apple v. Oranges. Consider Mantle was AMD-only and they had less than 20% of the dGPU market. That's why they had to fund EA taking an interest. The main brain at EA that helped with Mantle was Johan Andersson, head of the Frostbite team, he helped develop the spec and get it into BF4 initially, and then later other Frostbite games.

Vulkan on the other hand is an all-hardware, all-platforms API, including coverage for 100% of the dGPU market (Nvidia, AMD, Intel all on board). If anything, adoption should be faster for all the reasons Mantle adoption wasn't. Coincidentally the same guy - Johan Andersson - is once again involved in getting Vulkan (and DX12) into "Holiday 2016" Frostbite based games, including presumably the next Battlefield title.

Also worth noting, the developers working with the preliminary Vulkan SDK and drivers are under NDA (that's the only way you get access, example if you wanted NVIDIA's beta Vulkan driver), and thus they're not blasting out press releases about the fact frenetically like Microsoft & friends are about DX12 on the Windows 10 publicity wave.

 

[Nobu]

It's also pretty easy to go on Steam and see that there are 2936 pieces of software compatible with Linux/SteamOS. Unfortunately ~2900 of them are either casual, DLC, or tools.

It's pretty easy to filter the results on steampowered.com--you don't need to make numbers up. There are 1526 games compatible with SteamOS/Linux, not DLC or tools.
Edit: only 138 are tagged "Casual", but that term is rather subjective. I know some people who are pretty hardcore Clash of Clans players, and I consider that a casual game.

 

[haste.]

It's pretty easy to filter the results on steampowered.com--you don't need to make numbers up. There are 1526 games compatible with SteamOS/Linux, not DLC or tools.
Edit: only 138 are tagged "Casual", but that term is rather subjective. I know some people who are pretty hardcore Clash of Clans players, and I consider that a casual game.

It was an exaggeration to make a point. But to say that over 1200 of them are more than casual games is an exaggeration beyond rationality. Again, if you don't understand, Valve has a vested interest in all this software being considered core. I challenge you to list more than 100 games on Steam's list that are considered core gamers (not "hardcore" gamers which terminology I hate either way) would have interest in. And listing a shit ton of indie titles that us nerds/geeks/techies know about don't count - legit titles that will draw interest from the average Joe...

 

[jwcalla]

It was an exaggeration to make a point. But to say that over 1200 of them are more than casual games is an exaggeration beyond rationality.

You didn't make any point. There are over 2,000 OpenGL games on Steam, and no, they're not all Angry Birds clones.

And nobody gives a shit about Battlefield 4 and all that other over-marketed crap. If that floats your boat then fine, but far more people are not interested in that crap than are.

 

[crusty_juggler]

Gamers are itching for more side-scrolling artistic retro $4.99 indie Linux games, no one gives a shit about Battlefield 4.

These Steam Machine threads are always hilarious.

 

[haste.]

You didn't make any point. There are over 2,000 OpenGL games on Steam, and no, they're not all Angry Birds clones.

And nobody gives a shit about Battlefield 4 and all that other over-marketed crap. If that floats your boat then fine, but far more people are not interested in that crap than are.

You answered nothing and then contradicted yourself. You previously said there were 1526 games on Steam, but now it is 2,000. You take a BF4 shot, which has no effect in this debate other than make you less credible.

I presented a challenge of 100 games that the core consumer with purchasing power (will pay $50/game) would consider purchasing that is available on SteamOS/Linux. Without that core consumer base it is not a viable business model and all you did is go on the defense and attack with inaccurate information instead of build an argument.

 

[DPI]

A virtual hat vendor and niche hardware creator has thrown it's "weight" behind Vulkan?Meh.

Man, I am shocked that AMD and Intel don't bother to devote resources to that surefire money-making venture known as Linux gaming.

Gamers are itching for more side-scrolling artistic retro $4.99 indie Linux games, no one gives a shit about Battlefield 4.
These Steam Machine threads are always hilarious.

Whats hilarious is the same troll that can always be found in every one of those threads weeping about what a nonstarter and nonfactor it is. Frantic, nervous, heavy flow. Why so worried?

 

[flu!d]

Whats hilarious is the same troll that can always be found in every one of those thread weeping about what a nonstarter and nonfactor it is. Frantic, nervous, heavy flow. Why so worried?

It's quite amusing, I'm sure he feels safe and warm in his familiar Windows based computing world....

 

[DPI]

It's quite amusing, I'm sure he feels safe and warm in his familiar Windows based computing world....

What's remarkable is how upset you'll see casual observers get that Vulkan is somehow an attack on Windows gaming, when Vulkan will support Windows gaming. The other thing you hear is "Valve is trying to kill Windoze and take over my PEE CEE with Linux". And again, Vulkan is not exclusive to Linux, and will work on Windows too (7, 8 and 10).

Unless you're a closet MS employee or MSFT shareholder, getting upset over what amounts to one more way developers can create games for your platform of choice is a little absurd.

If you're a fan of DX12? Vulkan is the competition to light a fire under Microsoft's ass to advance D3D12. The proof will be in the benches. If Vulkan runs the same game faster than DX12, it'll pressure Microsoft to improve. If DX12 is faster, Vulkan will have to improve. Competition = innovation, consumers win, graphics advancement is no longer tied to just whenever Microsoft decides to ship a new version of Windows.

 

[Nobu]

It was an exaggeration to make a point. But to say that over 1200 of them are more than casual games is an exaggeration beyond rationality. Again, if you don't understand, Valve has a vested interest in all this software being considered core. I challenge you to list more than 100 games on Steam's list that are considered core gamers (not "hardcore" gamers which terminology I hate either way) would have interest in. And listing a shit ton of indie titles that us nerds/geeks/techies know about don't count - legit titles that will draw interest from the average Joe...

Here's what I came up with, sorry if there are any duplicates--if you can't be bothered to look for yourself, I can't be bothered to remove duplicates. Anyway, some games I didn't include because I thought they weren't great, others I did because I thought they were okay, you should look for yourself if you want to know if there are games that you like.

Counter-Strike
Counter-Strike:GO
DOTA 2
Team Fortress 2
Borderlands 2
Borderlands Pre-Sequel
Dying Light
Garry's Mod
Civilization V
Civilization: Beyond Earth
Left 4 Dead 2
Portal 2
Half-Life: 1/2/Episode (1/2)/Lost Coast/Opposing Force, + deathmatch/ricochet/etc.
Europa Universalis IV
Bioshock Infinite
Wasteland 2
Star Wars KOTOR II
Guns of Icarus
Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor
Day of Defeat: Source
Baldur's Gate: *
The Witcher 2/Assassins of Kings Enhanced Ed.
Metro: Last Light Redux
Postal 2
Penumbra: Black Plague Gold Edition
Icewind Dale: EE
Metro 2033
Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut
Shadowrun Returns
Serious Sam 3: BFE
Tropico 5
Shadowrun Chronicles
Planetary Annihilation/TITANS
Cities: Skylines
Dying Light
Jagged Alliance 1: GE
Company of Heros 2
Bioshock Infinite
Crusader Kings II
Killing Floor

And some others I thought were interesting, or was surprised to see...
Rust
F19 Stealth Fighter
F117A Nighthawk Stealth Fighter 2.0
Pajama Sam*
Frozen Synapse

Obviously, there aren't a lot of Popular/AAA titles--Linux/SteamOS is just picking up steam...pun intended. Consoles start with only a few Meh or "Awesome" games before they pick up steam, should be no surprise to see that happening here, either.

And, a couple of the favorites in my library:
Ark: Survival
The Binding of Issac: Rebirth
Evoland
Kerbal Space Program
Mark of the Ninja
Portal
Rogue Legacy
VVVVVV

 

[haste.]

Here's what I came up with, sorry if there are any duplicates--if you can't be bothered to look for yourself, I can't be bothered to remove duplicates. Anyway, some games I didn't include because I thought they weren't great, others I did because I thought they were okay, you should look for yourself if you want to know if there are games that you like.

Counter-Strike
Counter-Strike:GO
DOTA 2
Team Fortress 2
Borderlands 2
Borderlands Pre-Sequel
Dying Light
Garry's Mod
Civilization V
Civilization: Beyond Earth
Left 4 Dead 2
Portal 2
Half-Life: 1/2/Episode (1/2)/Lost Coast/Opposing Force, + deathmatch/ricochet/etc.
Europa Universalis IV
Bioshock Infinite
Wasteland 2
Star Wars KOTOR II
Guns of Icarus
Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor
Day of Defeat: Source
Baldur's Gate: *
The Witcher 2/Assassins of Kings Enhanced Ed.
Metro: Last Light Redux
Postal 2
Penumbra: Black Plague Gold Edition
Icewind Dale: EE
Metro 2033
Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut
Shadowrun Returns
Serious Sam 3: BFE
Tropico 5
Shadowrun Chronicles
Planetary Annihilation/TITANS
Cities: Skylines
Dying Light
Jagged Alliance 1: GE
Company of Heros 2
Bioshock Infinite
Crusader Kings II
Killing Floor

And some others I thought were interesting, or was surprised to see...
Rust
F19 Stealth Fighter
F117A Nighthawk Stealth Fighter 2.0
Pajama Sam*
Frozen Synapse

Obviously, there aren't a lot of Popular/AAA titles--Linux/SteamOS is just picking up steam...pun intended. Consoles start with only a few Meh or "Awesome" games before they pick up steam, should be no surprise to see that happening here, either.

And, a couple of the favorites in my library:
Ark: Survival
The Binding of Issac: Rebirth
Evoland
Kerbal Space Program
Mark of the Ninja
Portal
Rogue Legacy
VVVVVV

I honestly don't intend this to come off like I'm being a troll or a dick - almost everything you listed is an Indie title or years old AAA titles to maximize profits like I was saying (see an earlier post).

I don't know if we missed the point of my earlier post, but you actually verified everything I was saying...

 

[Flogger23m]

Valve still hasn't REALLY caught on to what gamers want.

What we WANT is an API to make Linux or other platforms viable for high-end gaming.

If Valve could put half a dozen AAA titles that everyone plays under the Vulcan API, make damn sure it works under super easy under SteamOS and several of the most common Linux distros and then incentivize the hell out of it for a little while (nearly free) to get gamers to actually try it... they would have a full on revolution on their hands.

I'm a Windows guy. I like Windows. I don't like some stuff MS does but for the most part they make things easier than any other option including and especially any flavor of Linux.

If Valve could just get SteamOS and Vulcan together with some big games cheap as a proof of concept then MS would finally have competition in the OS market again.

Windows 10 is doing fine. My new system is a beast. But I would not mind having a SteamOS / Vulcan API alternative for serious gaming. Less bloat. Less privacy issues. Less is more on a gaming system.

Come on Valve. Get it going. We want it.

The main issue is getting Valve to develop a platform which rivals Windows and OSX, which I just don't see happening. If I can't run my programs on it then it is a glorified console OS only useful as a game launcher. Or at best, it will come with a couple of phone inspired apps.

If I'm going to need a separate PC to make mods, run all my software ect. on then there really is little reason to get SteamOS.

Vulkan itself seems a lot more interesting, and if it gets the funding/development to become a real competitive API that doesn't provide issues for devs then that is great.

 

[flu!d]

The main issue is getting Valve to develop a platform which rivals Windows and OSX, which I just don't see happening. If I can't run my programs on it then it is a glorified console OS only useful as a game launcher. Or at best, it will come with a couple of phone inspired apps.

If I'm going to need a separate PC to make mods, run all my software ect. on then there really is little reason to get SteamOS.

Anything that runs on SteamOS will also run on regular distros of Linux, if you think modern Linux distros are in someway inferior to Windows or OSX you're terribly mistaken.

 

[Flogger23m]

Anything that runs on SteamOS will also run on regular distros of Linux, if you think modern Linux distros are in someway inferior to Windows or OSX you're terribly mistaken.

Can I natively run Photoshop on it? Sony Vegas? No? Then I'm probably not interested. Why jump through more hoops when I can use them natively in Windows?

 

[Nobu]

I honestly don't intend this to come off like I'm being a troll or a dick - almost everything you listed is an Indie title or years old AAA titles to maximize profits like I was saying (see an earlier post).

I don't know if we missed the point of my earlier post, but you actually verified everything I was saying...

I don't care if they're old titles if they're fun to play. Honestly, I don't have most of those games, but I have a lot of older games that I probably wouldn't have bought if they weren't available on Linux, because support for old games on Windows is pretty abysmal. There are a lot of games I thought were good that I didn't include because you said core gamers (which I took to mean, the gamers they'd be getting most of their profits from), not nerd/techi/etc. (which I would categorize myself as), and a lot of games that I did include for the same reason. Like I said, look for yourself if you're curious. I went through all 60-ish pages to make that list, it took about 20-30 minutes.

Edit: And, to be clear, I never said there were 1k+ awesome games on steam, just that there were that many games period. I don't feel like it was necessary to exaggerate that much--you could have simply said what you had said in your reply to me. Anyway, the waters are still being tested with Steam/OS--we'll see in a year or so whether adoption picks up, since Vulkan adoption will begin to rise at that point and SteamOS will have been on retail hardware for close to a year or more. Until then, it's just a testing ground for Indies and big studios who are considering it in the future (it's easier and less expensive to port an older game than to make a new one from scratch and then fix all the bugs and release it on a new platform--especially if you're already using OpenGL on that title, which not all games are).

 

[DPI]

The main issue is getting Valve to develop a platform which rivals Windows and OSX, which I just don't see happening. If I can't run my programs on it then it is a glorified console OS only useful as a game launcher. Or at best, it will come with a couple of phone inspired apps.

If I'm going to need a separate PC to make mods, run all my software ect. on then there really is little reason to get SteamOS.

Main issue for you maybe, not main issue for Valve. They're trying to break into the livingroom/couch-gaming console space. That's all SteamOS is targeting right now, not trying to replace Windows desktop. But you already knew that.

 

[flu!d]

Can I natively run Photoshop on it? Sony Vegas? No? Then I'm probably not interested. Why jump through more hoops when I can use them natively in Windows?

I used to be hell bent on using Photoshop on the Windows platform, then I forced myself to try alternatives after becoming frustrated with Windows, now I find Photoshop a little backwards and a little expensive.

There's always alternatives, but if you're not willing to change and adapt then stick with what you're comfortable with. However, none of this has anything to do with the merits of the base operating system.

 

[atom]

I used to be hell bent on using Photoshop on the Windows platform, then I forced myself to try alternatives after becoming frustrated with Windows, now I find Photoshop a little backwards and a little expensive.

There's always alternatives, but if you're not willing to change and adapt then stick with what you're comfortable with. However, none of this has anything to do with the merits of the base operating system.

Please don't be one of these guys to claim GIMP is just as good or better than Photoshop.

Anyways, It is very likely that Indies will embrace Vulkan even more than they do OpenGL, especially if SDL is updated to wrap around it. I would say Valve titles would definitely use it if Valve was still a game developer. One thing that would let Vulkan take off is if Unreal Engine supported it. I still see Direct X as being very very dominant.

 

[Flogger23m]

Main issue for you maybe, not main issue for Valve. They're trying to break into the livingroom/couch-gaming console space. That's all SteamOS is targeting right now, not trying to replace Windows desktop. But you already knew that.

One post its a PC to take on Windows gaming, another post its simply a console. Probably the most amusing part of these discussions. Then why is the OS even emphasized if it is intended to be the "couch-gaming console space"? That demographic doesn't give two damns about the OS their console runs, and couldn't name the OS or APIs the PS/Xbox/Wii uses.

Vulkan seems like it has potential though. The thought of not being tied to new Windows versions (within reason, I don't expect them to go back to 4-5 OS versions) is certainly a good one.

However, none of this has anything to do with the merits of the base operating system.

It actually does. If the OS doesn't run what people demand and use, then there is no point in using it.

 

[Nobu]

One post its a PC to take on Windows gaming, another post its simply a console. Probably the most amusing part of these discussions. Then why is the OS even emphasized if it is intended to be the "couch-gaming console space"? That demographic doesn't give two damns about the OS their console runs, and couldn't name the OS or APIs the PS/Xbox/Wii uses.

Well, in this case, the OS is equivalent to the Console--since there is no "SteamBox 540" or whatever you want to call it, the OS is the only real constant.

 

[flu!d]

Please don't be one of these guys to claim GIMP is just as good or better than Photoshop.

I prefer gimp. If you prefer Photoshop, if you prefer Windows and all the issues that come with Windows then use whatever your comfortable with.

As stated, I've got a very capable Windows machine here, the only thing it gets used for these days is playing games. So the idea of a cross platform API appeals to me as it would be good to give it the heave ho once and for all.

Coming from an era where segrigation was plentyful with the Amiga's, the Atari ST's, the Apples and everything else, there isn't a single negative to breaking free of manufacturer specific API's in favour of a cross platform solution.

 

[atom]

I prefer gimp. If you prefer Photoshop, if you prefer Windows and all the issues that come with Windows then use whatever your comfortable with.

As stated, I've got a very capable Windows machine here, the only thing it gets used for these days is playing games. So the idea of a cross platform API appeals to me as it would be good to give it the heave ho once and for all.

Coming from an era where segrigation was plentyful with the Amiga's, the Atari ST's, the Apples and everything else, there isn't a single negative to breaking free of manufacturer specific API's in favour of a cross platform solution.

Couldn't agree more. I draw the line though where we think free and open solutions are going to be higher quality than a company/group/person doing it for profit.

 

[flu!d]

Couldn't agree more. I draw the line though where we think free and open solutions are going to be higher quality than a company/group/person doing it for profit.

While it might be difficult for you to adjust to a new platform, and that's perfectly understandable, generalizing and assuming that quality suffers without the incentive of monetary gain is just flat out incorrect.

There's bigger players behind the development of Linux than simply Microsoft behind Windows, and the big players are backed up by a diverse enthusiastic community of supporters that are passionate about what they do - I'd trust that kind of enthusiasm and passion before I'd trust Microsoft monopolizing with propitiatory API's and dealings under the table with Adobe any day.

But, I know what suits me and I'm not here to convince you otherwise. If you prefer Windows all the best to you, but don't treat Linux like a second class citizen just because it isn't pre installed on literally every brand name desktop and laptop sold, as this is what gets MS it's numbers. You say you agree with me re: an open platform API, remember, the segregation of the 80's and early 90's starved to death at the knees of the open platform PC - There's nothing to say it won't happen again, especially when it benefits the consumer.

However, keep buying Microsoft operating systems as the plethora of infection related issues make me good money.

 

[Revdarian]

. One thing that would let Vulkan take off is if Unreal Engine supported it. I still see Direct X as being very very dominant.

https://www.khronos.org/members/promoters

Just saying.

 

[R3MF]

Didn't read through all the replies here. But while it is always nice to have options, the problem with the comment there is that Vulkan (like OpenGL) is not competing against DirectX. You still need sound, you still need input... OpenGL books and tutorials used to always point you to use DirectX for everything except for the graphics and leave that part to OpenGL. The problem is that in doing so you area left with something that can't be ported outside of Windows as you are still using that for everything else. Here you will have a similar issue. So you use Vulkan for graphics. What about everything else? Do you code your own API for sound, input and everything else or do you find a different cross platform API for those that will give you the same level of flexibility.

So looking at that by itself, I don't know if I would say that you shouldn't use DX12 as your back end, but like was the case for awhile you have another option for replacing Direct3D

very good post.

a better technical mind than mine will be needed to answer this question; how far does the combination of Vulcan/OpenAL/SDL go towards replacing those components of DX necessary to produce a AAA title?