The next NCASE project: a Steam Machine-style case (indeterminate)

PlayfulPhoenix said:
All that matters is how many actual interested buyers want the feature. Nothing else matters. Not the reason they want ODD support, not how justifiable that feature is, not how popular ODD support in other cases is, nothing. All other inquiries and justifications are conjecture that don't contribute anything to a rational decision-making process.

This is true of every feature or consideration for the case, to be clear. ODD drive support, graphics support, 3.5'' storage support, and so on. Nothing escapes the goal of maximizing utility for everyone.
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Does anyone disagree with this - with the idea that what we should really be considering is what's best only for those who would be buying the case, as a group? I ask because nobody ever did disagree when I said this two weeks ago, and yet no comments since then really speak to this consideration.

All everyone is doing right now is pulling from personal preference and experience, and extrapolating that to a theoretical population, in order to support their argument. Everyone makes good points, and has persuasive arguments, but nobody is debasing from their position because nobody is listening to anyone else - you're all just trying to convince the others that you must be right.

If the objective here is to try to convince other people that you're correct and they aren't, that clearly isn't going to happen at this point. And if you're wanting to arrive at consensus about whether or not an ODD should be supported, what you're doing now will never achieve that. So I'd suggest instituting a systematic approach of deciding this - or, at least, a change of direction in the current discussion.
 
OK, so I'll explain again.

Note that, the population of kickstarter/indiegogo users is somehow different than of this forum.
You want optimal product for feasible price within reasonable time.
That isn't true for the most of people pledging in crowdfunding campaigns.
They want the fastest, slimmest, best looking, coolest and most powerful stuff and they usually pay more than normally for something like that, that's not optimal to live the dream the best thing to possess.
They are not like you or me. So not taking current trends in consideration and just counting the forum population could be a suicide.

From my experience of 8 years of technical support for 10+ mechanical engineers and friends during school and university, 4 years of game developer work in two 60+ people studies, I think I know quite big slice of pie on how different people are using computers nowadays.

I can say that:
1) People who will want to buy this thing at first are mostly gamers and the machine is strictly for gaming or the ones with too much money to spend on crowdfunding new stuff.
2) People that watch a lot of movies will generally go to cinema or, sadly, pirate those movies and keep them on their hard drives
3) People who watch movies from dvd's and blu-ray disks, stockpiling those are mostly using dedicated idiot-proof stand-alone players
4) People who watch series will watch them online or download them from the network rather than wait for new seasons to be bundled into a blu-ray disk.
5) People who play games in front of TV probably already have one of the current generation consoles connected and play BD's on them.


So In general: People who will buy this either won't care if there's ODD or they'll already have the dedicated player. The only thing there is left to convince them that this decision was good and they do not need the ODD :)
 
PlayfulPhoenix said:
Does anyone disagree with this - with the idea that what we should really be considering is what's best only for those who would be buying the case, as a group? I ask because nobody ever did disagree when I said this two weeks ago, and yet no comments since then really speak to this consideration.
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Well, yeah. I disagree, kind of.

If I were the designer of a case, I would design it with simplicity in mind and consider the forward looking perspective of the viability of ODD. For that reason, I would rather prefer to exclude ODD entirely or make it without as default, IF profitable.

So yeah, it basically comes down to what is profitable or viable, but if I were a case designer I would definitely have my own preferences count as well. I would make the best product I could image for myself. Viability is an important, but second concern in my eyes. But maybe I'm just being idealistic.

But now, I'm not the one designing the case, so there's that...
 
SaperPL said:
2) People that watch a lot of movies will generally go to cinema or, sadly, pirate those movies and keep them on their hard drives
3) People who watch movies from dvd's and blu-ray disks, stockpiling those are mostly using dedicated idiot-proof stand-alone players
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Bullhockey! As a 'person who watches a lot of movies' and a 'person who hordes BDs' , I invariably avoid Cinemas (due to the demise of Projectionist as a profession, most cinemas are woefully out of calibration, outright have sound channels failed, etc) as they aren't worth bothering with. And even when fettered with PowerDVD or TMT or the like rather than playing the .ts directly from the disc (preferable), a PC will run a disc faster (in the case of BD-J menus, or instantly for direct play) with better picture quality than a standalone BD player.
Streaming is not to be touched with a bargepole, with bitrates topping out at 4-5mbps.

Per Necere, adding the option for a ODD means that the USB mounts move down reducing the max length for monstrously oversized cards. For recommended blower cards, there are not currently any longer than 10.5". The only cards I can find that would not fit are custom OEM design dual-GPU cards.
For the frontpanel, having a no-ODD version may or may not require total retooling (depending on the specific punch design, and/or if the other cuttings are being performed by CNC), but would require an extra process path to split the SKUs. A blanking plate may be an option, but would be tricky to mount for such a slim slot (but not impossible).
Removing the front USB ports would allow for oversized GPUs to still be fitted.
Assuming the internal design has not since changed.
 
EdZ - thats why I said "generally", meaning there are some people that will want to wait to watch movies in 4K at home, and those who will listen only to flac music, but that's not the whole population.

The problem is we can't talk about it like why you do or don't need to ODD, but what will appeal to the target audience. And that depends whether the target is a gamer or someone who just wants to watch play movies from PC. I believe this case is for gamers, while there is a lot of htpc cases out there to choose from for the second group.

And apart from that, as I said before - fitting each another thing inside is a real pain to make in something so compact to make it properly.
 
IVEST said:
I'm just trying to point out that there are people out there without "fiber to the curb" who require an optical drive for their gaming and video activities.
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Yes, and there are literally thousands of cases for them. Get those instead, leave ruining this case alone.

Games, movies and computer programs still come on optical discs you know.
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I haven't bought a game, application, or operating system on optical media for years. I don't even install operating systems from optical media anymore.

Ever heard of Blu-ray? Beats streaming by a mile and a half. People with slow or no internet connections can't download this stuff.
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I own hundreds of Blu-rays. I use a PS3 and an Oppo standalone player for viewing them in my living room and home office. The ODD in my PC is an LG Blu-ray/HD-DVD combo drive that I've had for years. The software available for watching them on my PC is beyond terrible, every last player out there. The headache isn't worth it and I'd rather watch them on my 65" plasma anyway. The last time I watched a BR on my PC was 2009. Its useless as far as I'm concerned.

More importantly, most people who watch movies on PC do it streamed on Netflix these days. This comes from someone who literally owns hundreds of Blu-rays, has a calibrated plasma, etc etc.

What's your definition of a "full size GPU"? An ASUS GeForce GTX Titan Z 12GB, or will something a bit smaller do?
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11" tops, standard for a big GPU. Should be able to fit a GTX 980.

The Valve Steam Machine is still a work in progress as far as I can tell. Who knows what the final product will look like.
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Gabe Newell has gone on record to say that no optical media drive was done on purpose to set an example, and to his frustration nobody has followed up on it. Do you really think they went out of their way to make something that custom "just because"?

Don't expect it to happen anytime.

Either way, I'd love to see ONE compact PC case out there that doesn't have its size compromised by the inclusion of an ODD. Seriously, you have thousands of cases with ODDs. Don't ruin this one.
 
MostComfortable said:
Either way, I'd love to see ONE compact PC case out there that doesn't have its size compromised by the inclusion of an ODD. Seriously, you have thousands of cases with ODDs. Don't ruin this one.
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So if the overall size of the NCASE LRPC isn't affected one bit by the inclusion of a slim slot-load ODD mount, then you'd be perfectly fine with the option? No?

If the LRPC can be built to accommodate a slim ODD *only* by letting the end-user utilize the current internal space differently (by selecting a short 750 to 970 GPU, or sacrificing HDD/SSD space), then I really don't see why any of you guys should even give two shits about the issue. And if you still do, then just be honest and admit it's because you don't like how the slot on the front panel looks (even though a no-ODD panel was proposed).

I really don't think any of the guys wanting an ODD option for this box are willing to accept a size increase to make this happen. If the external dimensions remain the same, and the case can still accommodate a reference 980/Titan blower (at least for those not using an ODD), then who the fuck cares if you watch Netflix, have a stand-alone, or simply loathe old-tech, since this issue doesn't effect you at all.

I honestly don't care either way, but I do agree with this..

PlayfulPhoenix said:
Nothing escapes the goal of maximizing utility for everyone.
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;)
 
But this is the best HTPC case ever !!! All it needs is ODD support, 3,5" HDD support and IR-support so we HTPC enthusiasts finally have a case for our needs. Who plays games anyway, what's Steam ? Trololol.
 
You forgot the tape streamer for database backup and rails for rack mounting bro.
 
AFD said:
If the LRPC can be built to accommodate a slim ODD *only* by letting the end-user utilize the current internal space differently (by selecting a short 750 to 970 GPU, or sacrificing HDD/SSD space), then I really don't see why any of you guys should even give two shits about the issue. And if you still do, then just be honest and admit it's because you don't like how the slot on the front panel looks (even though a no-ODD panel was proposed).
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Well, yeah, size seems like it wouldn't be an issue in accommodating an ODD. For me though there are real concerns in accommodating an ODD - a) A slot on the front would look shit. Really shit. Although a 'no-ODD' panel option would solve that. Which brings me neatly to... b) It's more work. More work for a project that is already on hiatus. More work for a design that was originally conceived as a Steambox with no ODD, and therefore no consideration of trying to fit in an ODD in the original design. A Steambox - as a in a console sized box to be used for downloading and playing games from Steam*, no ODD required. (*Disclaimer - Other Game Download Services May Be Available In Your Area.:p)
So, unless it can be done for no extra time, effort and/or cost then I say screw ODD. If any one wants it then as other people have pointed out numerous times go buy one of the other bazillion cases out there (that perhaps isn't a Steambox? Just a thought) or buy an external drive, and leave this beautiful Steambox with a better chance of soon being in all of our living rooms.
 
Phuncz said:
But this is the best HTPC case ever !!! All it needs is ODD support
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Yup.
3,5" HDD support
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Not needed. External NAS. Storing encoded content is feasible, storing raw BD images is not, particularly for "I just got this disc, I want to watch it rather than waiting for it to rip and transfer". Keeping the spinning rust out of the Pc also keeps noise down to a minimum (idle fan noise only) during movie watching.
and IR-support
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Not needed. HDMI CEC covers interaction and control with other AV equipment though any other remote control, and more fine-grained control can be done with dedicated bluetooth remotes, or with a phone or tablet on the same network.


Aesthetic and manufacturing process arguments make sense, and I can see why those who see this as a dedicated Steam box rather than a 'do-everything' living room box do not want an extra slot on the front panel.
 
Phuncz said:
But this is the best HTPC case ever !!! All it needs is ODD support, 3,5" HDD support and IR-support so we HTPC enthusiasts finally have a case for our needs. Who plays games anyway, what's Steam ? Trololol.
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No, no.. it doesn't need ODD support. Apparently everyone that watches movies already has Netflix and a stand-alone bluray player for doing that. Therefore, this box doesn't even need to accommodate a discrete GPU card at all, since everyone that games in their living room already has some board games and a video game console for such things.

:p
 
EdZ said:
Not needed. External NAS.
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Nah I don't want to use that.

EdZ said:
Not needed. HDMI CEC...
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No I need my old Logitech Harmony to work with it.

EdZ said:
Aesthetic and manufacturing process arguments make sense, and I can see why those who see this as a dedicated Steam box rather than a 'do-everything' living room box do not want an extra slot on the front panel.
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But this case must be everything because not everybody can get broadband internet or can be bothered with playing BluRay on a standalone device. And because of these very important factors that cannot be compromised in ANY way, this case needs to be a very compact HTPC. I don't care about Steambox, I need this case to allow my needs for watching BluRay on a PC.

If not obvious, I'm super trolling because I'm so amazed how people can demand this case to be different because it doesn't allow their specific and irrelevant use-case to perfectly fit the original premise of the design.
 
Phuncz said:
If not obvious, I'm super trolling because I'm so amazed how people can demand this case to be different because it doesn't allow their specific and irrelevant use-case to perfectly fit the original premise of the design.
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Who's to say (other than Necere and W360) that supporting over-long GPUs is not an' irrelevant use-case' and not fitting the original premise of a Living Room PC? Trolling is the exact opposite way of getting your point across.
 
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Because I'm not the one challenging the original design for some fringe use-case that has already been catered for over a decade.
 
don't be ridiculous guys, eight track and betamax are 30 years outdated. this case needs an optical drive, therefore I demand laserdisc support. otherwise I refuse to buy this case.
 
I hope the guys decide to nix 2.5" legacy drive support for this case, since M.2/mSATA is current tech and takes up a fraction of the space. :D
 
I agree that LaserDisc is much more in tune with today's age, since it's excellent for... ah no nevermind.
 
Not sure if it was mentioned but an HTPC doesn't need a dedicated high end video card. If in the absence of a card there can be a bracket of some kind that can hold two or three 2.5" SSD drivers or one or two 3.5" drives the case could fill the needs of those wanting an HTPC.

As far as IR, it would be nice but not required since there is a plethora of external IR, RF and Bluetooth solutions that can be leveraged depending on the application.

ODD would be fantastic. If it means adding a few cm's of thickness it would be welcome for a lot of people. Optical discs still carry the majority of content despite digital downloads. Also, having the ability to record onto discs can be important to some.

With that said, this can still be primarily a steam box but with a little extra ingenuity like the kind put into the N1 this could easily meet multiple needs even if it costs extra for the bracket I mentioned.
 
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The Lurker said:
Not sure if it was mentioned but an HTPC doesn't need a dedicated high end video card. If in the absence of a card there can be a bracket of some kind that can hold two or three 2.5" sata drivers or one or two 3.5" drives the case could fill the needs of those wanting an HTPC.
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I think slots for 3.5" drive hot swapping would be great. Just like the new small form factor Zalman M1, which has obviously taken a lot of inspiration from its namesake in terms of compact design.
 
andgo said:
Well, yeah. I disagree, kind of.

...If I were the designer of a case, I would design it with simplicity in mind and consider the forward looking perspective of the viability of ODD... if I were a case designer I would definitely have my own preferences count as well. I would make the best product I could image for myself. Viability is an important, but second concern in my eyes.
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You're right, but that's true with whatever strategy that the group decides to implement for the sake of reaching consensus. Necere is making the case, we're just providing feedback, and he makes the ultimate choice... But what, then, is the best method with which to provide that feedback, and enlighten our (and Necere's) decision making?

That's the question I fear nobody is asking. And I am terribly disappointed in how devolved the discussion has gotten on this thread, at least more recently (and I don't remove myself from having contributed to that). There's just pages of (mostly) arguing, all of which has the sole accomplishment of getting everyone riled up. If anything, it has made the end goal of reaching an optimal design even more elusive, because of how divisive and aggressive everyone in the thread has gotten. Nobody is winning right now.

As I said earlier, I feel that, for a project like this, nothing escapes the the goal of maximizing utility for everyone - where "everyone" means "everyone who is an interested buyer". Since I don't think the topic of ODD support will be dropped, then let me at least suggest a method for thinking about it:

  1. Determine the net utility of including the feature - benefits minus costs. How hurt are people who want the feature if they don't get it, and how hurt are people who don't want the feature if they do?
  2. Determine what proportion of interested buyers want the feature.
  3. Come to a consensus around whether or not including ODD support is better or worse for everyone as a whole.
It's obviously a challenge to quantify something that's subjective, but this is what real companies and product designers and engineers think about every day - how the decisions made about design address the needs and desires of the market they cater to. You don't arrive at good design decisions by deciding what you want or think is best, only to yell at everyone who did the same thing and came to a different conclusion. That's the antithesis of an informed process. It's just bad design work. And it doesn't do the promise of the case any justice.
 
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Wow, these renders look amazing.
Can't wait to get a hands-on as soon as these ship :) I love my M1, but I'd definitely look for a HTPC form-factor. Keep up the good work!
 
Aibohphobia said:
Does not compute :p

It's 43.8L
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vipz said:
3.5" hotswap would probably require a good amount of compromise, but for 2.5" hotswap there's already a solution: http://www.amazon.com/Syba-Mount-Mobile-2-5-Inch-SY-MRA25023/dp/B0080V73RE
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The Lurker said:
I think hotswap is overkill for a system like this. Also, 2.5" drives sadly have a max size limit right now. 2tb I think? If a bracket held at least one 3.5" drive that allows the HTPC to have at least 6tb of space, which IMHO will be more than enough for 99% of use cases.
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Screes said:
if you need that sort of storage you can get a NAS enclosure.
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Fished in! :p

Wotryp said:
look nice !
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postcount++ ;)
 
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I just read a review of teh Azza Z Mini ITX Gaming Case: http://www.hardwareasylum.com/reviews/cases/azza-z

It has a volume of 16.8 L and a layout similar to what's been discussed here. Azza is using a flexible PCI-E riser. Pretty gaudy with the green mesh, but I understand that they are trying to make the necessary ventilation into a accent feature.
 
Yeh, though I'm not a PC DIY guy I still have great expectation on this project. Is there any update drawings to surprise us? TKS
 
It's on hold, pretty much until I either come up with something I like better, or I keep the design as-is. Committing to a specific design is not an easy decision, because once you do, you can't go back and make any major changes.

Honestly, the slim-style layout has never been all that intriguing to me, and that's largely due to how limited it is. One of my biggest problems with it is the inability to set up well defined airflow, with filtered intakes and positive pressure. The design as-is attempts some approximation of it, but to do properly (i.e., using dedicated intake fans) just isn't viable at this size.
 
Here's a question for you guys: how big a deal is it for GPU height to be limited to roughly reference size? I'm thinking potentially even more limited than the M1.
 
Necere said:
Here's a question for you guys: how big a deal is it for GPU height to be limited to roughly reference size? I'm thinking potentially even more limited than the M1.
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I would probably want it to at least fit the slightly taller ITX-style cards (with enough room for the PCI power cable, of course), but only if using a shorter card also allowed room for something else (maybe additional 2.5" drives). Otherwise, there would really be no benefit to using one, and a reference 980 would be a better choice. Really don't understand the desire for huge 3-fan Windforce coolers in a SFF case.

Just my random opinion.. don't think I'm exactly the type of consumer that this project was going after. Think a fairly smallish gaming PC like this is an awesome idea, but I'm honestly more interested in a tiny living room computer (media consumption, web browsing on TV) with gaming being a secondary function. Ie, my opinion probably shouldn't matter too much ;)
 
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Necere said:
Here's a question for you guys: how big a deal is it for GPU height to be limited to roughly reference size? I'm thinking potentially even more limited than the M1.
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Well, for me at least, it is a big deal. I currently have a small PC in the living room with the M1 and upgrading the video card is difficult given that most of the cards are very wide and don't fit. Also, the limitation of using just a blower type cooler really limits your options if you want a silent PC (ok, using a blower style cooler can be quieter than an open airflow one given that the other components don't cook themselves anymore and drive all the fans to maximum).

It would be nice to devise a small case that would be able to accommodate a larger variety of graphic cards (given that a steam style case would be used primarily for gaming), which can be both wider and non-blower. I'm not sure how feasible something like this is though.

If gaming is not a priority then I believe the case could limit support to even miniITX style cards, given that the 970 punches a lot of ooomph in a very small package.
 
Necere said:
One of my biggest problems with it is the inability to set up well defined airflow, with filtered intakes and positive pressure. The design as-is attempts some approximation of it, but to do properly (i.e., using dedicated intake fans) just isn't viable at this size.
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With an unusually high level of trust in the end-user, ducting of component fans solves this nicely, particularly for GPU blowers, without requiring additional fans. It does put the burden on whoever is assembling the system not to go picking components that assume a certain quantity of passive airflow (e.g. 'gaming' motherboards with overzealous power delivery systems).
 
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