Linus Torvalds 'Still Wants the Desktop'

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As much as I hate to say it, Torvalds has had over 20 years to win the war for the desktop and isn't any closer today than he was back then. We are definitely Linux supporters but something is seriously wrong when a free operating system can't compete with one that costs hundreds of dollars. :(

Linux kernel developer Greg Kroah-Hartman moderated the discussion and commented that Linux already runs everywhere. He asked Torvalds where he thinks Linux should go next. "I still want the desktop," Torvalds said as the audience erupted into boisterous applause. The challenge on the desktop is not a kernel problem, Torvalds said. "It's a whole infrastructure problem. I think we'll get there one day."
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The OS is fine now. Unfortunately until the software is there, it won't have a chance. Until there is native Office, Photoshop and same day AAA game releases, Linux doesn't have a chance.
 
Koolthulu said:
The OS is fine now. Unfortunately until the software is there, it won't have a chance. Until there is native Office, Photoshop and same day AAA game releases, Linux doesn't have a chance.
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*the software isn't there*
 
Software developers are in the business of making money and they are not going to hinge their futures on an OS who's claim to fame is it's free. They are not viewed as being in the same game.
 
Is RedHat Free?

Is RedHat the most well used Linux in the business world?

See the correlation?

RedHat isn't free, RedHat is doing business, so Businesses are paying for and using RedHat.
 
The problem I always run into with running Linux as my desktop is too much choice. Yes, the thing that makes Linux great is it's downfall to me. 20 applications to do one simple task all of which are in this flux of almost good enough, not quite there, no longer developed because someone forked it and it is now called something else.

It sucks, but the closed source apps that aren't open to everyone are the best apps on Linux and that is because they don't have people forking the hell out of it.

Some call it fragmentation I guess. Whatever you want to call it, it always annoys the hell out of me.
 
The real issue is MOST computer users are not computer enthusiasts with an interest in open source.
They know how to use apps a,b, and c and that's it, they have the minimum, don't change anything.
To introduce something new with a learning curve to deal with is a deal breaker.
Libre office may end up being as good or better than MS office xxxx, but if it is different, people will push back.
 
You all make fair points but are still missing the biggest reasons why Linux has no chance.

First is the attitude of Linux people. Apple people can't even begin to compete with the snobbish elitism evident in many places throughout the Linux community.

Second is usability. Sure there have been many improvements, there is no denying that. Step off the yellow brick road for one second though? You're fucked unless you are a seasoned Linux veteran. If grandma wants to download something new on Windows? She can probably get it done. On Linux? Good luck with compiling that source code grandma!

I could go on about the fragmented "my Linux is better than yours" mentality and divided resources but it all comes down to one thing. The Linux community is a bunch of disagreeable kids with ZERO chance.
 
I think it's the software plus the fragmentation.

Someone wants to go to Linux - it's complicated. Which distro? What is different between this one and that one? Which DE do you go for? What's the difference? How do I manage it? There are multiple answers to each, and you can ask 10 people and get 10 difference answers. Windows, it's easy - buy the newest version. MacOS is easier - it comes with the hardware (I just don't like MacOS).
 
Koolthulu said:
The OS is fine now. Unfortunately until the software is there, it won't have a chance. Until there is native Office, Photoshop and same day AAA game releases, Linux doesn't have a chance.
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Agreed.

Desktop Linux is great, except for a lot of software missing.

I'm sure it doesn't help that Linus Thorvalds has a childish personality and is prone to temper tantrums, insulting rants, etc. etc. when he doesn't get things his way.

I wouldn't be surprised if this drives away many organizations from wanting to work with him, or the linux community in general.

It would probably be better for the community if he were to extricate himself from it.
 
Ultima99 said:
You all make fair points but are still missing the biggest reasons why Linux has no chance.

First is the attitude of Linux people. Apple people can't even begin to compete with the snobbish elitism evident in many places throughout the Linux community.

Second is usability. Sure there have been many improvements, there is no denying that. Step off the yellow brick road for one second though? You're fucked unless you are a seasoned Linux veteran. If grandma wants to download something new on Windows? She can probably get it done. On Linux? Good luck with compiling that source code grandma!

I could go on about the fragmented "my Linux is better than yours" mentality and divided resources but it all comes down to one thing. The Linux community is a bunch of disagreeable kids with ZERO chance.
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I am sorry man, but I see all of this as immaterial. Let me explain why. The "Linux people" don't matter. They are a severe minority group that isn't populous enough to be worth marketing to when you are talking about an OS market, the PC market.

The markets that matter are business and average consumer markets. They make up the sales numbers that will or will not drive profit and that is all there is too it. Mom and pop don't need to recompile a kernel when their machine is store bought and has IT support from India. But if business can't see profit in switching to a new OS requiring some new training of even general staff, and dealing with tech support of a new order, it's not going to happen and they are never going to take the chance.

The business world, other then the IT services world, still mostly views IT as overhead, something that costs and doesn't do a whole lot for the bottom line except make it harder to keep in the black. They don't even like paying to keep it all up to date they sure don't like playing early adopter or stepping out on a limb without a really good reason.
 
People like choice...but not with umpteen UI's and ten thousand versions of the OS. Oh yeah and games.
 
Ultima99 said:
Second is usability. Sure there have been many improvements, there is no denying that. Step off the yellow brick road for one second though? You're fucked unless you are a seasoned Linux veteran. If grandma wants to download something new on Windows? She can probably get it done. On Linux? Good luck with compiling that source code grandma!
Click to expand...

Partially true.

I find these days modern linux distributions are actually EASIER than Windows to install and use. No searching for drivers, etc as there is with windows.

If you use software that is in the package manager it is also easier than Windows, with managed dependencies and centralized updates.

The problem is when you use some rare piece of hardware, or you need a very specific piece of software. This is when it can get tricky.

That being said, at lest the Debian/Ubuntu based distributions have a very large software offering in their default package managers now, and having to look for, manually compile and install software, is a relatively rare problem these days.

My Desktop and Laptop both run Linux Mint 17, and I have two Ubuntu Server edition servers, and I can't remember the last time I had to compile anything for them. Worst I've had to do is add a 3rd party PPA, but most people shouldn't have to do that either.

I DID have to compile a driver for FreeBSD not too long ago though, but that is FreeBSD, not Linux)
 
Zarathustra[H];1041039538 said:
Partially true.

I find these days modern linux distributions are actually EASIER than Windows to install and use. No searching for drivers, etc as there is with windows.

If you use software that is in the package manager it is also easier than Windows, with managed dependencies and centralized updates.

The problem is when you use some rare piece of hardware, or you need a very specific piece of software. This is when it can get tricky.

That being said, at lest the Debian/Ubuntu based distributions have a very large software offering in their default package managers now, and having to look for, manually compile and install software, is a relatively rare problem these days.

My Desktop and Laptop both run Linux Mint 17, and I have two Ubuntu Server edition servers, and I can't remember the last time I had to compile anything for them. Worst I've had to do is add a 3rd party PPA, but most people shouldn't have to do that either.

I DID have to compile a driver for FreeBSD not too long ago though, but that is FreeBSD, not Linux)
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Grandma wouldn't understand a word you said right after partially true. And try to get her to search though a package manager for software they want, like MS Office...worse they download software from the Internet and its not for linux nor even find where the hell they downloaded it.
 
pcjunkie said:
Grandma wouldn't understand a word you said right after partially true. And try to get her to search though a package manager for software they want, like MS Office...worse they download software from the Internet and its not for linux nor even find where the hell they downloaded it.
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You must have a more capable grandma than I do. Even my parents don't isntall their own software.

They use whatever is on the computer, Linux or Windows, and if anythign needs to be installed ask for assistance.


For them, Linux vs. Windows wouldn't make much of a difference.
 
Install wizards. It's as simple as that.

No one cares that you linux people think your built in package / software manager is better / easier. Until this happens linux will never go mainstream.
 
pcjunkie said:
Grandma wouldn't understand a word you said right after partially true. And try to get her to search though a package manager for software they want, like MS Office...worse they download software from the Internet and its not for linux nor even find where the hell they downloaded it.
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That and the developers also know this. It's not like you ahve to go into command line APT anymore.

You can , if you want to, but if you want something simpler there default link is for "Software Center" which you click, and can browse by category what software you want (or search for it in a dialogue box) and then click "install". Very "App store" like, except everything is free.

ubuntu-14.04-software-center.png


I agree though, if they need/want something that isn't in there, it will rapidly exceed most users capabilities.

When was the last time you used a recent Desktop Linux install?

I still find Unity on Ubuntu completely intolerable to use, but they have gone a long way to make it very usable by beginners, and as I mentioned before, it is in many cases much easier to use than Windows.

If you prefer a more traditional desktop UI, go with Cinnamon on Linux Mint. All the same useability tools are there, just with a more traditional desktop look.
 
You are unlikely to find a large Linux desktop in corporate America. I see Macs making more headway that Linux on the desktop. It is an unsupportable joke in a large environment with thousands of users with strict security policies and procedures.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041039538 said:
Partially true.

I find these days modern linux distributions are actually EASIER than Windows to install and use. No searching for drivers, etc as there is with windows.
Click to expand...

I totally agree, rather than having to search for drivers in Linux you just put up with the fact that there isn't a driver for that Dell wireless card and keep your laptop plugged into the LAN at all times.
 
Thuleman said:
I totally agree, rather than having to search for drivers in Linux you just put up with the fact that there isn't a driver for that Dell wireless card and keep your laptop plugged into the LAN at all times.
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Again, IMHO, mostly a historical issue.

I've installed Ubuntu or Linux Mint on many different laptops since ~2008 or so, and in every case they've just worked out of the box. Pop the disk in the drive, click install, reboot, all hardware works perfectly.

I haven't specifically looked for Linux friendly models either. They have been a mix of Dell and HP Enterprise models.
 
Thuleman said:
I totally agree, rather than having to search for drivers in Linux you just put up with the fact that there isn't a driver for that Dell wireless card and keep your laptop plugged into the LAN at all times.
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This made me lol. You are right, it's similar to saying windows 7 doesn't need drivers.... as long as your computer is 6+ years old it will auto detect most of them.
 
I don't see an issue with Linux remaining an enthusiast option.
Oh, my biggest gripe: stop trying to make the GUI look like iOS and go back to what works. :rolleyes:
 
Ultima99 said:
You all make fair points but are still missing the biggest reasons why Linux has no chance.

First is the attitude of Linux people. Apple people can't even begin to compete with the snobbish elitism evident in many places throughout the Linux community.

Second is usability. Sure there have been many improvements, there is no denying that. Step off the yellow brick road for one second though? You're fucked unless you are a seasoned Linux veteran. If grandma wants to download something new on Windows? She can probably get it done. On Linux? Good luck with compiling that source code grandma!

I could go on about the fragmented "my Linux is better than yours" mentality and divided resources but it all comes down to one thing. The Linux community is a bunch of disagreeable kids with ZERO chance.
Click to expand...


This is dead-on.
 
I might get flamed for saying this, but as someone who does a hell of a lot with his system in terms of multimedia (video, audio, image recording / editing / manipulation) and gaming and all kinds of misc. smaller things, in the past that I've tried using it, the biggest thing that always turned me away was the commandline. I used the commandline plenty back in the DOS days and was glad to see it go. Windows is at the point where I basically NEVER need to touch the CLI. It's been a while since I've used Linux, but I would like to be able this in Linux without having to learn and type in commands:
-install drivers
-install random obscure 3rd party programs I might need (not stuff in an official download center)
-configure variables for video encoding
-run and configure emulators for other OS software
-tweak my GUI far beyond whatever the standard theme is (choosing taskbar behavior, appearance, how menus open, what they contain, etc.)
-tweak lots of variables on my videocard (enable SGSSAA, specific AA flags, etc.)
-Do realtime screen capture and tweak lots of recording variables

If I can do all that without ever having to bust open the CLI, then I could seriously consider Linux. I realize the gaming support isn't nearly what Windows in, but that's a gargantuan problem, not a usability one. Now I'm not AGAINST people using the CLI, but I feel like a heavy user, yet non-programmer should be able to do just about anything they can do with Windows (barring specific software support) with Linux without the CLI if it seriously wants to court desktop users.
 
All these tasks people are claiming Linux is better at are tasks most people never need to do anymore. Install the OS, install drivers, pay for an os, etc. What applications are people installing on Windows that cause issues you wouldn't have ten fold on Linux.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041039538 said:
If you use software that is in the package manager it is also easier than Windows, with managed dependencies and centralized updates.
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Yeaaa...no, unfortunately that isn't a guarantee. This was my last experience with it:
Meeho said:
I've spent five hours yesterday trying to get qtcreator and cmake to run. Pulled my hair out and got nowhere in the end. First SimplyMEPIS failed to install them because of some unresolvable dependencies. Then I managed to install them on Mint 16 only to find out that a newer (and only available in repositories) qt has problems with cmake and wishes to configure some kits of which neither I nor Google new anything about. Then I somehow managed to install an older version manually, but multiple other errors started appearing because my cmake installation was missing some files that my friend's Linux had for some reason. Gave up in the end.
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I could've downloaded a Windows exe and be done in five minutes.
 
Every package manager I've tried to used with any Linux distro ever has been a cluster fuck of dependencies, error messages and CLI installations to resolve.
 
The more I read this thread the funnier it gets.
You guys are complaining about problems that was known linux across the board 8 or 10 years ago.
WHEN is the last time you download a modern distro and tried it??
 
Dr. Righteous said:
The more I read this thread the funnier it gets.
You guys are complaining about problems that was known linux across the board 8 or 10 years ago.
WHEN is the last time you download a modern distro and tried it??
Click to expand...

About a year ago. Although I never get tired of seeing the above quote, which seems to be posted every time a thread like this comes up going on 10-15 years now. Ten years from now I'll hear about how sloppy Linux was in 2014, but it's great now.
 
tetris42 said:
I might get flamed for saying this, but as someone who does a hell of a lot with his system in terms of multimedia (video, audio, image recording / editing / manipulation) and gaming and all kinds of misc. smaller things, in the past that I've tried using it, the biggest thing that always turned me away was the commandline. I used the commandline plenty back in the DOS days and was glad to see it go. Windows is at the point where I basically NEVER need to touch the CLI. It's been a while since I've used Linux, but I would like to be able this in Linux without having to learn and type in commands:
-install drivers
-install random obscure 3rd party programs I might need (not stuff in an official download center)
-configure variables for video encoding
-run and configure emulators for other OS software
-tweak my GUI far beyond whatever the standard theme is (choosing taskbar behavior, appearance, how menus open, what they contain, etc.)
-tweak lots of variables on my videocard (enable SGSSAA, specific AA flags, etc.)
-Do realtime screen capture and tweak lots of recording variables

If I can do all that without ever having to bust open the CLI, then I could seriously consider Linux. I realize the gaming support isn't nearly what Windows in, but that's a gargantuan problem, not a usability one. Now I'm not AGAINST people using the CLI, but I feel like a heavy user, yet non-programmer should be able to do just about anything they can do with Windows (barring specific software support) with Linux without the CLI if it seriously wants to court desktop users.
Click to expand...


Part of what you mention we all pretty much agree on. Insufficient software support. More native software is going to be necessary if it is going to take off. Every major commercial and consumer title as to work natively on Linux before it will become a popular platform.

As far as your reluctance to the CLI goes, while an issue tio the grandma types, to an enthusiast that shouldn't be a problem.

Heck, IMHO, in most cases a CLI is so much more efficient and easy to use than a GUI once you've learned to use it. The availability of a good shell is one of the reasons I keep coming back to Linux. it is so much easier to edit a searchable text file to configure things, than digging through multiple tabs trying to find the right check box to click on.

This is especially true on the server side, where IMHO, a GUI has no business existing at all.
 
As far as your reluctance to the CLI goes, while an issue tio the grandma types, to an enthusiast that shouldn't be a problem.
Click to expand...

Who's talking about enthusiast types? If we are talking enthusiast only, then Linus already has the desktop.
 
Dr. Righteous said:
The more I read this thread the funnier it gets.
You guys are complaining about problems that was known linux across the board 8 or 10 years ago.
WHEN is the last time you download a modern distro and tried it??
Click to expand...

About a month ago...
 
Taco said:
Who's talking about enthusiast types? If we are talking enthusiast only, then Linus already has the desktop.
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Members of these forums could be considered enthusiasts :p

What percentage of the hardforums do you think has Linux installed at all, let alone uses it on a regular basis? :p
 
Zarathustra[H];1041039924 said:
Members of these forums could be considered enthusiasts :p

What percentage of the hardforums do you think has Linux installed at all, let alone uses it on a regular basis? :p
Click to expand...

Yeah, but that's not the topic of this news bit. At all. I'm not arguing Linux will work for people with a registered [H] account.
 
Taco said:
About a year ago. Although I never get tired of seeing the above quote, which seems to be posted every time a thread like this comes up going on 10-15 years now. Ten years from now I'll hear about how sloppy Linux was in 2014, but it's great now.
Click to expand...

What was so unbelievably horrible that it was a deal breaker?

Did you try more than 1 distro?

I have run into issue where a certain say ATI card has poor support, solution, try a different distro or different card. But standard system resources, not had any of those unsupported in years. For those who complain they find it completely unworkable; what the hell are you doing??
 
Dr. Righteous said:
The more I read this thread the funnier it gets.
You guys are complaining about problems that was known linux across the board 8 or 10 years ago.
WHEN is the last time you download a modern distro and tried it??
Click to expand...

The thing is, who actually downloads and installs on OS on PC from scratch. There are plenty of Linux desktop distros that are easy to install and work well out of the box? So what if very few average users do this in the first place.

The issues with Linux adoption on the desktop aren't technical in nature. First and foremost, Linux distros HAVE to be preinstalled on not just a few PCs, but at the very least on option on most it not all of them. And there has to be something very compelling about the Linux option beyond a minor price reduction on the hardware. Without this, there's simply never going to be enough Linux market share to fix the next major issue of Linux desktop adoption, top tier 3rd party support.
 
I don't remember, was trying to install some app, it broke, googled for solutions which led to manual installation of dependies via CLI. It wasn't completely unworkable for me and I didn't personally mind doing it. It likely wouldn't be unworkable for most on this site.

It would be unworkable and laughably broken for pretty much anyone who walks into Best Buy, gets a Windows pre-loaded laptop and are happy with it. Which is what I assumed Linus was alluding to wanting to accomplish and what we are talking about.
 
Zarathustra[H];1041039924 said:
What percentage of the hardforums do you think has Linux installed at all, let alone uses it on a regular basis? :p
Click to expand...

I'd actually be curious to know this. I for one have been on these forums for 10+ years and never accessed it from a *nix device. I've installed and played with many, never stuck with it.

My only motivation to run any kind of *nix at home is for ZFS storage and boot disks.
 
Taco said:
I'm not arguing Linux will work for people with a registered [H] account.
Click to expand...

But don't a lot of people around even hear point out that Linux doesn't work for them, especially when it comes to gaming?
 
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