Why doesn't the industry do anything about backlight bleeding?

[Namelessme]

Backtracking, already covered.


You are starting a different debate thats nothing to do with 4K.

I wasn't even aware I was debating anything. I simply posted that I didn't see that much benefit with 4K, when compared to something like OLED. I've even read reviews where current plasmas can beat 4K displays.

This article illustrates some of the issues: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_...-resolution-rumble-720p-plasma-vs-4k-led-lcd/

If you are excited about 4K displays, that's fine. I just think the market emphasis is in the wrong place.

 

[Nenu]

I wasn't even aware I was debating anything.

You answered my post.
Its either a debate or an argument, take your pick. I prefer debate

I simply posted that I didn't see that much benefit with 4K, when compared to something like OLED. I've even read reviews where current plasmas can beat 4K displays.

So get an OLED when they are viable.
Early adopters will get the 4K standard going, its very new and has a way to go yet.
If you have no need or dont have the cash etc, dont get one.
Denying its basic capabilities when you really want to talk about OLED is a bit strange.
Its not like OLED development is slowing.

This article illustrates some of the issues: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_...-resolution-rumble-720p-plasma-vs-4k-led-lcd/

If you are excited about 4K displays, that's fine. I just think the market emphasis is in the wrong place.

Already covered, the quality will improve.
The TV he chose must be particularly crap at interpolation, did you read the link I posted earlier?
Its not like all TVs will be this bad and that it wont improve.
What market emphasis are you referring to?

I'm not really excited about 4K displays, its a natural evolution that will be nice to have.
I wont be getting a 4K display for probably 4 years.
I'm opposed to it being put down because you want something else, unreasonable.
You will eventually have both.

 

[Megalith]

Why is it that VA panels tend to have little to no backlight bleed?

 

[Namelessme]

Already covered, the quality will improve.
The TV he chose must be particularly crap at interpolation, did you read the link I posted earlier?
Its not like all TVs will be this bad and that it wont improve.
What market emphasis are you referring to?

I'm not really excited about 4K displays, its a natural evolution that will be nice to have.
I wont be getting a 4K display for probably 4 years.
I'm opposed to it being put down because you want something else, unreasonable.
You will eventually have both.

In regard to market emphasis, there has been more of a manufacturer push towards 4K rather than OLED, at least generally speaking. I simply meant I'd much rather see all manufacturers get 1080p right, before even bothering with 4K. And yeah, I read the article you posted ... I never said there was no benefit to 4K. As for putting it down, myself and another poster simply mentioned the shortfalls to 4K... it won't be as big a deal for a lot of people, due to distance and size of their TVs. I just think there is more to gain if manufacturers focus on other aspects of a display, rather than just resolution.

I expect we will get both eventually. Hopefully it's not another 10 years until OLEDs are more mainstream.

@Megalith

And sorry for the derailing. As for VAs, I know one person here recently purchased a 27" AMVA and it had a lot of bleed. So I wouldn't say they are immune. Perhaps it's mentioned here less often simply because it's less popular than IPS.

 

[Spazturtle]

The annoying thing with resolutions is native vs max, you mainly get this with projectors but I am starting to see it with displays.

So you will see "1080p Full HD Display" and when you read the specs it will say 800x600 native.

I expect to see every projector being sold as 4K within the year despite being 240p.

 

[Nenu]

In regard to market emphasis, there has been more of a manufacturer push towards 4K rather than OLED, at least generally speaking. I simply meant I'd much rather see all manufacturers get 1080p right, before even bothering with 4K.

Its down to OLED not being reliable enough for long term use, its time isnt quite here.
4K TVs dont have this constraint.
Its not due to lack of focus, its that one is ready and the other isnt.
Holding up the introduction of 4K wont do anything to help OLED development.
If anything, it will hinder development if following your way of thinking.
Not capitalising on the hard work gone into 4K development will mean future tech will suffer.
Concentrating on just one element to the exclusion of others doesnt make sense when they are both on the verge of becoming mainstream.

And yeah, I read the article you posted ... I never said there was no benefit to 4K. As for putting it down, myself and another poster simply mentioned the shotfalls to 4K... it won't be as big a deal for a lot of people, due to distance and size of their TVs. I just think there is more to gain if manufacturers focus on other aspects of a display, rather than just resolution.

I expect we will get both eventually. Hopefully it's not another 10 years until OLEDs are more mainstream.

The value will be different for different people and will depend a lot on the quality of the TVs too.
I know some people who still use CRT TVs only. They dont begrudge others preferring decent 1080p TVs and can see the benefit, they just dont see the need for themselves. There is no denying that most of us prefer 1080p, so its not an illusion.
The law of diminishing returns definitely applies, but it doesnt mean there wont be an advantage if all the recommended viewing conditions arent met.

Now when 8K TVs arrive... lol.

ps I'm a big fan of OLED.

 

[Nenu]

The annoying thing with resolutions is native vs max, you mainly get this with projectors but I am starting to see it with displays.

So you will see "1080p Full HD Display" and when you read the specs it will say 800x600 native.

I expect to see every projector being sold as 4K within the year despite being 240p.

Full HD is 1080p/1080i (not 720p)
HD Ready means it can downscale 1080p to the default res which is less.

 

[Megalith]

I just can't get excited about 4K because it's not going to solve any problems. Increased resolution isn't going to fix what really matters, like black level, motion response, transfers that aren't noise-reduced to shit, etc.

It is amazing how OLED will usher in a golden-age of displays when it actually takes off.

 

[Spazturtle]

Full HD is 1080p/1080i (not 720p)
HD Ready means it can downscale 1080p to the default res which is less.

Yes but they advertise Full HD as it can take a Full HD input, its output could be VGA and they would still call it 1080p Full HD

 

[Nenu]

Yes but they advertise Full HD as it can take a Full HD input, its output could be VGA and they would still call it 1080p Full HD

I have never seen that happen.
The confusion has always been with people buying HD ready TVs thinking they are 1080 res.

HD Ready means it can take a full HD input and not display nothing.
It is ready for HD signals and will downscale them to the native res.

If someone is using Full HD to mean this, it is false advertising.
Its more likely you have confused the two.
Can you show us the advert?

 

[Nenu]

I just can't get excited about 4K because it's not going to solve any problems. Increased resolution isn't going to fix what really matters, like black level, motion response, transfers that aren't noise-reduced to shit, etc.

It is amazing how OLED will usher in a golden-age of displays when it actually takes off.

You would have thought Plasma would gobble up the TV market as it fulfils your criteria and is here now.
Not only that, they are much cheaper.
Yet they are being phased out before OLED is fully released.

 

[Spazturtle]

I have never seen that happen.
The confusion has always been with people buying HD ready TVs thinking they are 1080 res.

HD Ready means it can take a full HD input and not display nothing.
It is ready for HD signals and will downscale them to the native res.

If someone is using Full HD to mean this, it is false advertising.
Its more likely you have confused the two.
Can you show us the advert?

here are some for projectors on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Pro...82840182&sr=8-13&keywords=led+projector+1080p

http://www.amazon.co.uk/NATIVE-1080...382840182&sr=8-5&keywords=led+projector+1080p

http://www.amazon.co.uk/LED-1080P-3...82840182&sr=8-12&keywords=led+projector+1080p

I've seen similar bullshit in shops for TVs (looking at you currys*)

*once saw currys compare Monster Cables HDMI to normal HDMI, looked at the back and the normal HDMI was a SCART cable.




On Topic:

For years resolutions on monitors had stayed the same but now we are finally seeing high res monitors, we now have retina monitors so we don't need any more improvements to res, yay.

What I want to see improved is contrast ratio, I don't want to be able to tell the difference between the black of the bezel and the screen. I shouldn't be able to tell the difference between the monitor being off and it displaying a black image.

 

[Namelessme]

You would have thought Plasma would gobble up the TV market as it fulfils your criteria and is here now.
Not only that, they are much cheaper.
Yet they are being phased out before OLED is fully released.

Logically one would have thought plasma should have gobbled up a much larger market share than it did. I guess public perception plays a large role there, as early plasmas had a number of issues not found in LCDs. Marketing plays a big role there too, which falls in line more with what this thread is about... people, in general, aren't that discerning as to the actual display. There are plenty of people who choose a TV based on how thin it is, or the type of bezel, not the quality of the display.

And I am not sure they are entirely being phased out, just Panasonic is phasing them out. Last I heard, Samsung will still be in the plasma game (I hope).

As the poster above mentioned, it's really difficult for me to get excited over 4K. Both the Panasonic VT60 and Samsung F8500 are considered better than Sony's 4K display... now. And yeah, 4K LCDs will improve, but that is more reliant on general LCD improvements, not related to 4K itself.

 

[Nenu]

here are some for projectors on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Pro...82840182&sr=8-13&keywords=led+projector+1080p

http://www.amazon.co.uk/NATIVE-1080...382840182&sr=8-5&keywords=led+projector+1080p

http://www.amazon.co.uk/LED-1080P-3...82840182&sr=8-12&keywords=led+projector+1080p

I've seen similar bullshit in shops for TVs (looking at you currys*)

*once saw currys compare Monster Cables HDMI to normal HDMI, looked at the back and the normal HDMI was a SCART cable.




On Topic:

For years resolutions on monitors had stayed the same but now we are finally seeing high res monitors, we now have retina monitors so we don't need any more improvements to res, yay.

What I want to see improved is contrast ratio, I don't want to be able to tell the difference between the black of the bezel and the screen. I shouldn't be able to tell the difference between the monitor being off and it displaying a black image.

I take it back.
They need reporting!
I'm looking to see how to do it.

Currys are tossers.
When 1080p first emerged, I was looking at their TVs and they tried to sell me a 720p TV fully knowing what I wanted.


Yeah contrast ratio and larger colour range will be a big benefit.
Larger colour range has been available for years but is rarely used.
Plasma does what you need btw.

 

[Nenu]

Logically one would have thought plasma should have gobbled up a much larger market share than it did. I guess public perception plays a large role there, as early plasmas had a number of issues not found in LCDs. Marketing plays a big role there too, which falls in line more with what this thread is about... people, in general, aren't that discerning as to the actual display. There are plenty of people who choose a TV based on how thin it is, or the type of bezel, not the quality of the display.

Yeah public perception is key.
And agreed, lack of good marketing has been the biggest problem.

And I am not sure they are entirely being phased out, just Panasonic is phasing them out. Last I heard, Samsung will still be in the plasma game (I hope).

Pioneer quit production in 2008.
NEC quit in 2009.
Panasonic quit one of its lines in 2012 reducing production.
Its a slow withdrawal from the market as demand reduces.
Maybe they dont make as much profit so are reluctant to market them.
But they need to make them to keep their names as producers of the best technology?

As the poster above mentioned, it's really difficult for me to get excited over 4K. Both the Panasonic VT60 and Samsung F8500 are considered better than Sony's 4K display... now. And yeah, 4K LCDs will improve, but that is more reliant on general LCD improvements, not related to 4K itself.

Panel quality isnt directly a 4K issue, but they are related.
Its down to getting products on the market cheaply enough and in a competitive timescale.

Its fair enough saying your opinion online.
Expect others to post theirs too
Its good to bring up these kind of topics as it helps information to surface and throws out some false preconceptions.

 

[Nenu]

here are some for projectors on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Pro...82840182&sr=8-13&keywords=led+projector+1080p

http://www.amazon.co.uk/NATIVE-1080...382840182&sr=8-5&keywords=led+projector+1080p

http://www.amazon.co.uk/LED-1080P-3...82840182&sr=8-12&keywords=led+projector+1080p

I reported the first one, the others didnt say Full HD anywhere on the page.
(I sent an email using Amazons contact us option)

They replied

I'm sorry to hear that the item is not described accurately by "buyinsummer". We expect our Sellers to describe their items accurately and require Amazon Marketplace Sellers to maintain current contact information so I’ve forwarded your report to the appropriate team within Amazon.co.uk for follow up. If you wish to contact the seller directly regarding this matter, here is the contact details for the Marketplace seller.

Contact Method: Amazon Message or Call us at 02032898828.
Company Add.:

Angela Chen

201,C1 Buliding, No 8 Zaohekeng Industrial Area
Jixia Village, Buji Town, Longgang District
Shenzhen, China 518114

I've forwarded your message to our team who review Seller activities as part of any investigation in possible violations of our policies.

Although for account privacy reasons, we can't disclose the outcome of any investigation, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for your vigilance and for highlighting this. Information received from our customers performs a vital role in maintaining the integrity and security of our Marketplace platform.

I hope this helps. We look forward on seeing you again soon.

 

[kossair]

I just can't get excited about 4K because it's not going to solve any problems. Increased resolution isn't going to fix what really matters, like black level, motion response, transfers that aren't noise-reduced to shit, etc.

It is amazing how OLED will usher in a golden-age of displays when it actually takes off.

QFT. This so much. And I might add quality check too, since, apparently no one seems to care enough right now.

 

[Acer_Sheep]

Some people here dont understand that not everyone is staring to screen 24/7 and putting life values to it. There are things you dont care about too and others are chosing the finest quality in this respect.
e.g. hardcore computer nerd oftenly is not even following basic hygiene while having properly set up high quality PC and classy woman oftenly is happy with 10 yrl old PC with outdated 17" Lcd but wears expensive clothing and cismetics and spends most free time improving this. It's matter of lifestyle not knowledge or value. It's oftenly your problem that you have specific desires. Probem with the screens is that you dont fix them yourself.While you can modify your car, bike, clothes, house etc. So the nerds are in loss here and industry ignores them since its inception.

 

[Namelessme]

Some people here dont understand that not everyone is staring to screen 24/7 and putting life values to it. There are things you dont care about too and others are chosing the finest quality in this respect.
e.g. hardcore computer nerd oftenly is not even following basic hygiene while having properly set up high quality PC and classy woman oftenly is happy with 10 yrl old PC with outdated 17" Lcd but wears expensive clothing and cismetics and spends most free time improving this. It's matter of lifestyle not knowledge or value. It's oftenly your problem that you have specific desires. Probem with the screens is that you dont fix them yourself.While you can modify your car, bike, clothes, house etc. So the nerds are in loss here and industry ignores them since its inception.

That is somewhat bizarre justification for poor quality control, in my opinion. Because some 'nerds' don't bother with basic hygeine or 'classy' women are happy with older PCs + cosmetics, it's fine for manufacturers to make shoddy products?

The argument that the general public, in general, doesn't care as much about display quality is of course true. As is the previous argument by a different poster, that general office workers don't care as much, due to the fact they aren't paying themselves. However, defining anyone who cares about a decent monitor as a 'nerd' and it's their fault if they want proper quality control, doesn't make any sense to me. So I guess all graphics professionals who want a display without light blasting in from the sides due to bleed, should blame themselves for wanting a decent product?

 

[Chad_Thunder]

I just can't get excited about 4K because it's not going to solve any problems. Increased resolution isn't going to fix what really matters, like black level, motion response, transfers that aren't noise-reduced to shit, etc.

It is amazing how OLED will usher in a golden-age of displays when it actually takes off.

OLED still has motion blur at low frame rates, in order to eliminate the sample-and-hold affect contrast may actually fall well below plasma

The best solution is a user selectable "black period" and strobe frequency but we will have to wait and see how OLED brightness/efficiency pans out

 

[Acer_Sheep]

That is somewhat bizarre justification for poor quality control, in my opinion. Because some 'nerds' don't bother with basic hygeine or 'classy' women are happy with older PCs + cosmetics, it's fine for manufacturers to make shoddy products?

The argument that the general public, in general, doesn't care as much about display quality is of course true. As is the previous argument by a different poster, that general office workers don't care as much, due to the fact they aren't paying themselves. However, defining anyone who cares about a decent monitor as a 'nerd' and it's their fault if they want proper quality control, doesn't make any sense to me. So I guess all graphics professionals who want a display without light blasting in from the sides due to bleed, should blame themselves for wanting a decent product?

I ofc do not agree with this state of industry, I also dont know why they dont fix it and wjy they also use that heavy AG coating, but It's nowhere near bizzare. I mean, even expensive screens are mass produced and simply are sold to general public. Things that are highly specialized in any industry are hand made and custom made according to customer's requirements. It's not your intentional fault but demanding something that doesnt exist(even if it is possible to create it) cant be seen as a raw problem of industry but yours. So if you are graphics designer who aims this high you have only to either get CRT or be happy with best that ia available.

 

[sobol]

+1 for this thread.

Also just industry know. I've returned two monitors in last year based on terrible backlight bleed or uniformity. Shame on you.

 

[Ocellaris]

+1 for this thread.

Also just industry know. I've returned two monitors in last year based on terrible backlight bleed or uniformity. Shame on you.

I returned 4 HDTVs from three different manufacturers the last time I purchased one.

 

[Liggywuh]

I returned 4 HDTVs from three different manufacturers the last time I purchased one.

I would of done the same if it wasn't for the fact that the store (big store like best buy or whatever you have on your side of the pond) didn't want to know, I contacted them the day after I took delivery as it was already past closing time, they wanted to send Panasonic out the set directly to listen for the buzzing from the PSU. They said it was normal for them to buzz and would charge me if the engineer couldn't hear the fault. (I could hear the PSU board from about 4 meters away). I told them where to go. In the end the PSU seems to of quietened down, with age I guess, as it doesn't bother me anymore, can't hear anything but the relay now when it starts, before it sounded like a substation. (This was in Sweden, where we have a 2 year "guarantee", which is clearly worth less than what people think it is worth).

In future I will ask them to open the set there, and I can listen and look for myself, so many crap products roaming the streets, all to save a couple of dollars to make profit margin as high as possible.

 

[Nenu]

Thats why small claims courts exist.

I had to threaten court action to return an Epson projector.
Its bulbs were supposed to last 4000hrs, they died before 1000hrs.
Epson refused to assist other than supply bulbs, even that was hell to get them to do that.
Told Epson I dont want it as after the warranty has run out, it would be too expensive to run and I wouldnt be able to give it away let alone sell it, they told me to take a walk.
Asked the shop to take it back, they refused.
So explained that I would have no choice but to take them to court as it isnt fit for sale.
They agreed then, I will use them again.

Problem turned out that the bulbs get too hot and they melt, design flaw.
All the bulbs they supplied melted and sometimes exploded.
They put a fair amount of mercury vapour in the air when they expire!!
I wont buy Epson again.