First Look At Windows 8.1

TechLarry said:
Alright ! They've fully integrated the Windows 3.0 non-overlapping multi-window interface!

Most excellent!
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For productivity purposes, side by side non-overlapping windows are very useful. The part of the demo where an attachment was automatically opened side by side in the image editor with the email to the side, that's much more elegant than a window popping up on top of the email client.
 
heatlesssun said:
For productivity purposes, side by side non-overlapping windows are very useful. The part of the demo where an attachment was automatically opened side by side in the image editor with the email to the side, that's much more elegant than a window popping up on top of the email client.
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I don't think anyone will argue that SBS isn't productive, because it really is (Love Aero-Snap in 7, use it all the time). However, the flexibility to have floating windows on top on one another is just as useful at times
 
NKDietrich said:
You missed my point entirely. I'm not comparing the Start Menu in Windows 7 with the Start Menu in Metro. They are both intended to be intuitive but not fast ways of navigating your programs. In short, they are for people who are slow and aren't held back by the design. Which one is better? I can't say, because I stopped using the Start menu about the same time I left Windows XP behind, and have no interest in spending more than a half a second with some menu covering any portion of my screen.

I'm comparing using the start menu as a mouse-driven way to navigate your programs to using the much more efficient keyboard approach which minimizes the amount of time you spend with anything popped up on your screen at all.
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Most power users only really use the start menu for pinned items. I'd be surprised if those clamoring for it's return would care if you yanked the all programs section off of it, I would think most already use search run for rare usage items.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Yep, it has taken a leap in improving power users' productivity. Forum warriors whining about their missing "start button" icon, not so much...
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Given that we haven't been talking about the start button at any point being a factor, either keep up with the conversation or troll someone else. Be snide all you want with the continued power users comments I really don't care.
 
looks interesting. I like that they added more personalization options...beyond that though I doubt I'll be using much of the changes in the video.
 
Some of the new options, boot to desktop, etc.
20130606_175104_416.jpg


Overall I think much of what all but the die hard classic UI Metro off switch folks want is in this release. One thing that I've seen referenced in Microsoft presentations but no mention of is "staying on the desktop" which I think refers to application defaults. If there is some sort of option to set default applications to desktop only that would take care of that part. And the search seems to vastly improved and it doesn't go to full screen by default.

And as far as search is concerned, that "Search Hero" I think it's called, looks pretty impressive.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Given that we haven't been talking about the start button at any point being a factor, either keep up with the conversation or troll someone else. Be snide all you want with the continued power users comments I really don't care.
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You knew what I was referring to: "start button" as a blanket term for start menu/start screen whining.
 
And, believe me, I'm a power user by probably anyone's standards ;)... that's being said to explain where I'm coming from with my remarks.
 
GoldenTiger said:
You knew what I was referring to: "start button" as a blanket term for start menu/start screen whining.
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Of course he knew that, but whenever someone schools him, he like to pretend he was talking about something else or that you didn't read his post correctly. It's very amusing. :eek:

I used Hyper-V in 8 Pro last night to do some testing on an SBS 2003 VHD file. Was really nice to not have to rebuild my test server and install Hyper-V from scratch. I'm looking forward to 8.1...can't wait to see everything that's under the hood beyond the UI stuff.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Actually, no you can't. Sure if you are just using those few programs pinned. However the second you have to do anything else on the computer, Metro gets thrown in your face and you have to dance around that stupid mess.

The thing is, If you like it..more power too you. I really do not give a damn if you like that UI. The fact of the matter is a large percentage of users DON'T and there is no valid argument as to why those in a non touch environment needed that crap made mandatory and not optional. You can make up arguments all you want about it being more efficient and blah blah blah which all boils down to bullshit. You like it, fine but it isn't efficient on any level, unless you are one of those people who has to see 50 things going on your display at any given point. Then I suppose it might be. For the rest of us it is just an eyesore.
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Actually, you can. I now have 6 home computers with Windows 8 and metro sees the light of day maybe 5% of the time on any of them with the exception of the HTPC which runs metro 100% of the time. But hey what do I know, I just use the damn OS every day.

As far as not being efficient? It is obvious you haven't used it otherwise you would know that after the initial learning curve Windows 8 is far superior for day to day use than Windows 7 ever was, at least for me. Keep in mind this isn't a corporate environment, just everyday regular home use.
 
GoldenTiger said:
You knew what I was referring to: "start button" as a blanket term for start menu/start screen whining.
Click to expand...

No you didn't, and you and most of the rest who have followed this thread know it. You don't get to try and back peddle with a lame excuse like that. Try again.

Eradan said:
Of course he knew that, but whenever someone schools him, he like to pretend he was talking about something else or that you didn't read his post correctly. It's very amusing. :eek:

I used Hyper-V in 8 Pro last night to do some testing on an SBS 2003 VHD file. Was really nice to not have to rebuild my test server and install Hyper-V from scratch. I'm looking forward to 8.1...can't wait to see everything that's under the hood beyond the UI stuff.
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That would be cute if it were true. Unfortunately it isn't and makes you look just as guilty as him on trying to back peddle off a bs argument.

Climber said:
Actually, you can. I now have 6 home computers with Windows 8 and metro sees the light of day maybe 5% of the time on any of them with the exception of the HTPC which runs metro 100% of the time. But hey what do I know, I just use the damn OS every day.

As far as not being efficient? It is obvious you haven't used it otherwise you would know that after the initial learning curve Windows 8 is far superior for day to day use than Windows 7 ever was, at least for me. Keep in mind this isn't a corporate environment, just everyday regular home use.
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A normal home user and you have 6 computers all with win 8. Uh huh..sure tell me another one. Actually I have used it, quite extensively in fact. If you want you can search my posts and see I was actively posting on Win 8 all during Dev preview as I was actively running it then through launch. Sorry, but I am not your average "I hate win 8 because it looks different" idiot some of you wish I was. I used it extensively, I exposed it to hundreds of people at numerous levels of ability as I was a technical trainer at that time, and I beat on it every way possible in a home and corporate environment. I likewise have used it on a tablet and you will also find I like it just fine on that. Another thing you will find is that my argument has been concise from the very beginning about advocating the option to use Both UI's on non touch devices while Defaulting to the standard Aero on non touch. Unfortunately for the lot of you, my opinion isn't uninformed and quite the contrary is far more informed then likely the three of you put together. At present Heatless is about the only one who can mount a decent argument, likely because he is the only other one who has actually used Win 8 in multiple environments, on a multitude of platforms and around other people. While he and I disagree and have gotten into some heated debates, both of us have remained very consistent in our stances and have more than proven our knowledge of Win 8. I am one of those users who has bought every single version of windows on launch day since Win 95. Win 8 was the first one to break that pattern and it wasn't just because I don't like change. I like change, change is good so long as it is change that improves things. Change for the sake of change, I dislike and metro in a non touch environment doesn't improve things.

I only dip in and out of the various threads that pop up from time to time due to the nature of my job. I travel quite a bit and don't usually have time to constantly post. That is why my activity dropped down somewhat for a few months. I have been active this week because I have been in a cisco class all week and lecture bores the crap out of me. Especially lecture from someone who is monotone over material I already know. However despite being long ready to take the exam, the company requires I sit through the course first, so sit through it I do. So now you know why I suddenly had a flurry of posting, not because I was some random hater who decided to suddenly spew Win 8 vitriol.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
At present Heatless is about the only one who can mount a decent argument, likely because he is the only other one who has actually used Win 8 in multiple environments, on a multitude of platforms and around other people. While he and I disagree and have gotten into some heated debates, both of us have remained very consistent in our stances and have more than proven our knowledge of Win 8.
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Thanks for the kind words and I do respect your opinion and actually even agree with it to the extent that having a Metro off switch would make a lot of people happy. I simply believe that tablet and touch and hybrid computing are critical to the future of Windows. Traditional desktop and keyboard and mouse computing isn't going away anytime soon, it's just now there is a different paradigm in tablets that's competing with traditional computers for the imagination and dollars of not consumers but even businesses now. Incremental improvements to the desktop simply aren't enough and falling back on classic keyboard and mouse operation is targeting a very stagnant growth crowd.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
No you didn't, and you and most of the rest who have followed this thread know it. You don't get to try and back peddle with a lame excuse like that. Try again.



That would be cute if it were true. Unfortunately it isn't and makes you look just as guilty as him on trying to back peddle off a bs argument.



A normal home user and you have 6 computers all with win 8. Uh huh..sure tell me another one. Actually I have used it, quite extensively in fact. If you want you can search my posts and see I was actively posting on Win 8 all during Dev preview as I was actively running it then through launch. Sorry, but I am not your average "I hate win 8 because it looks different" idiot some of you wish I was. I used it extensively, I exposed it to hundreds of people at numerous levels of ability as I was a technical trainer at that time, and I beat on it every way possible in a home and corporate environment. I likewise have used it on a tablet and you will also find I like it just fine on that. Another thing you will find is that my argument has been concise from the very beginning about advocating the option to use Both UI's on non touch devices while Defaulting to the standard Aero on non touch. Unfortunately for the lot of you, my opinion isn't uninformed and quite the contrary is far more informed then likely the three of you put together. At present Heatless is about the only one who can mount a decent argument, likely because he is the only other one who has actually used Win 8 in multiple environments, on a multitude of platforms and around other people. While he and I disagree and have gotten into some heated debates, both of us have remained very consistent in our stances and have more than proven our knowledge of Win 8. I am one of those users who has bought every single version of windows on launch day since Win 95. Win 8 was the first one to break that pattern and it wasn't just because I don't like change. I like change, change is good so long as it is change that improves things. Change for the sake of change, I dislike and metro in a non touch environment doesn't improve things.

I only dip in and out of the various threads that pop up from time to time due to the nature of my job. I travel quite a bit and don't usually have time to constantly post. That is why my activity dropped down somewhat for a few months. I have been active this week because I have been in a cisco class all week and lecture bores the crap out of me. Especially lecture from someone who is monotone over material I already know. However despite being long ready to take the exam, the company requires I sit through the course first, so sit through it I do. So now you know why I suddenly had a flurry of posting, not because I was some random hater who decided to suddenly spew Win 8 vitriol.
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Then I apologize for being a dick. Some of your early posts in this thread included these statements...

It is the fact that the start screen is utterly horrible. I don't need giant pastel colored icons that look like something designed around an 80's prom taking up my entire screen

How is a screen with gigantic icons taking up completely unnecessary space and requiring more clicks to perform common tasks designed for power users?

Gee I dunno, I guess my hatred of metro and "love for the menu" stems from the fact that I don't need something taking up my entire 27" monitor. I rather like having nice backgrounds..not terribly colored icons full of useless shit.

...which mirrors some of the snarky, uninformed crap I hear almost daily from people whose actual exposure to the OS consists of screenshots and thousands of hate posts on some website. When I hear that stuff, it goes right up my ass.

Otherwise, my personal and professional experience with Windows (and Windows 8 in particular) is similar to your own. I just happen to be more sympathetic to Microsoft where Windows 8 is concerned. I think 8 was born out of a desire to compete with the mobile market, which appears to be where the future of personal computing is headed (with exceptions of course).

Good luck with your Cisco exam. :)
 
The groups thing was already there, maybe they made it easier to do.
They should make the groups collapsible, with the ability to create collapsible groups within groups/collapsible groups. You know, kinda like folders on the desktop. ;)
Just give them a slightly different look to differentiate them from non-collapsible groups, and do the same when they're collapsed into tiles. Voilà!, a much more useable Start Page! :D
 
heatlesssun said:
Thanks for the kind words and I do respect your opinion and actually even agree with it to the extent that having a Metro off switch would make a lot of people happy. I simply believe that tablet and touch and hybrid computing are critical to the future of Windows. Traditional desktop and keyboard and mouse computing isn't going away anytime soon, it's just now there is a different paradigm in tablets that's competing with traditional computers for the imagination and dollars of not consumers but even businesses now. Incremental improvements to the desktop simply aren't enough and falling back on classic keyboard and mouse operation is targeting a very stagnant growth crowd.
Click to expand...

No problem man, and the same from me on yours.

I as well see the same shift coming and I have taken the time to think on where things are going and how things are going to look 5-10 years down the road. Of course much like popular mechanics, that is challenging to be accurate on but nonetheless.

I see low end tablets like your android continuing to be around indefinitely. Let's be honest, some people are cheap and just want a toy. Of course those make excellent learner devices for kids as well.

Ipad will remain in its own demographic for the foreseeable future, I don't believe this needs explaining.

Non full windows tablets above the price of the iPad, i honestly see disappearing in the next 5 years. I feel that people will hit a point where they go "If I am spending this much, why would I buy a handicapped os?" So that leads me to believe that in the $500-$1000 range, full windows Tablets/Hybrids/Ultrabooks will dominate. Now to the question of which will dominate? That is a little tougher to answer. There are times where a straight up tablet is nice, there are times where a clamshell design is nice, there are times where you need more power than a flat tablet can offer but not quite a high end laptop. I can see standard ultrabooks eventually losing to hybrid devices which while they don't detach, have a screen that flips down to operate like a tablet. But I can't see having a permanent clamshell completely going away as there are definitely drawbacks to that giant glass screen on a tablet. Sure the flex covers are nice, but they aren't perfect.

Speaking of laptops, I honestly see the sub $600 range of laptops just flatly disappearing. In this instance, the price/weight/performance ratio just makes them look unattractive. While I am sure there will be a small demographic that want them, there is also a small demographic that want Pacman arcade machines and those aren't sold either obviously. High end laptops, aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Being blunt about it, tablets can't and likely never will be able to replace those. I could be wrong on the never, but just like laptops could never fully replace desktops due to size limitations for hardware, I see the same thing here.

On to desktops and what their future looks like. I would agree fully that the low end budget "Consumer" version will pretty much disappear. However it will continue to exist in corporate environments as a client machine and corporations consume the vast majority of that market anyhow. I don't see this changing simply because mobile hardware deployed on a large scale in a corporation tends to grow legs if you get my meaning. Your higher end desktops will continue, for the same reasons high end laptops will. There are simply too many things that can't be done on lower end hardware to even consider the notion that they would. Now as to how large of a market segment that turns out to be? That is tough to say. However for those saying it is extremely niche, i point to the fact that there are companies built exclusively around supporting that "Niche" market and are doing extremely well. So I suspect that market isn't quite as small as everyone wants to believe.

It is because of this last aspect that I have continued to argue for the option of being in a standard desktop environment. While I can fully agree that Win 8 can and probably will dominate the mobile space and while it does offer some benefits to the desktop environment, it isn't perfect. Nor was the previous iteration either for that matter. I am not against MS throwing new Ideas out there and seeing how they work. I am simply against them throwing those ideas out there without giving its paying customers a means to back out if it doesn't work quite as well as they hoped.

Eradan said:
Then I apologize for being a dick. Some of your early posts in this thread included these statements...

It is the fact that the start screen is utterly horrible. I don't need giant pastel colored icons that look like something designed around an 80's prom taking up my entire screen

How is a screen with gigantic icons taking up completely unnecessary space and requiring more clicks to perform common tasks designed for power users?

Gee I dunno, I guess my hatred of metro and "love for the menu" stems from the fact that I don't need something taking up my entire 27" monitor. I rather like having nice backgrounds..not terribly colored icons full of useless shit.

...which mirrors some of the snarky, uninformed crap I hear almost daily from people whose actual exposure to the OS consists of screenshots and thousands of hate posts on some website. When I hear that stuff, it goes right up my ass.

Otherwise, my personal and professional experience with Windows (and Windows 8 in particular) is similar to your own. I just happen to be more sympathetic to Microsoft where Windows 8 is concerned. I think 8 was born out of a desire to compete with the mobile market, which appears to be where the future of personal computing is headed (with exceptions of course).

Good luck with your Cisco exam. :)
Click to expand...

Bear in mind that from my perspective I keep reading a small handful of people laud win 8 like it is the greatest thing mankind ever invented and they are just as utterly opposed to people having a choice as some of the idiots on my side of the fence. Let's dub them with a new term (FanTrolls). So yes I do fall into the trap from time to time of just assuming this latest person is just a casual user who doesn't use his computer for much beyond playing games and posting on facebook and as such as an irrelevant opinion. As such you end up with statements out of me that come across as snide and jaded because well, I get jaded and snide sometimes too. :D

Anyhow, Thanks. Once this is out of the way I get the lovely joy of reupping my mcse...Oh Goodie! I just love long lectures on Active Directory.:(
 
Dekoth-E- said:
No problem man, and the same from me on yours.

I as well see the same shift coming and I have taken the time to think on where things are going and how things are going to look 5-10 years down the road. Of course much like popular mechanics, that is challenging to be accurate on but nonetheless.

I see low end tablets like your android continuing to be around indefinitely. Let's be honest, some people are cheap and just want a toy. Of course those make excellent learner devices for kids as well.

Ipad will remain in its own demographic for the foreseeable future, I don't believe this needs explaining.

Non full windows tablets above the price of the iPad, i honestly see disappearing in the next 5 years. I feel that people will hit a point where they go "If I am spending this much, why would I buy a handicapped os?" So that leads me to believe that in the $500-$1000 range, full windows Tablets/Hybrids/Ultrabooks will dominate. Now to the question of which will dominate? That is a little tougher to answer. There are times where a straight up tablet is nice, there are times where a clamshell design is nice, there are times where you need more power than a flat tablet can offer but not quite a high end laptop. I can see standard ultrabooks eventually losing to hybrid devices which while they don't detach, have a screen that flips down to operate like a tablet. But I can't see having a permanent clamshell completely going away as there are definitely drawbacks to that giant glass screen on a tablet. Sure the flex covers are nice, but they aren't perfect.

Speaking of laptops, I honestly see the sub $600 range of laptops just flatly disappearing. In this instance, the price/weight/performance ratio just makes them look unattractive. While I am sure there will be a small demographic that want them, there is also a small demographic that want Pacman arcade machines and those aren't sold either obviously. High end laptops, aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Being blunt about it, tablets can't and likely never will be able to replace those. I could be wrong on the never, but just like laptops could never fully replace desktops due to size limitations for hardware, I see the same thing here.

On to desktops and what their future looks like. I would agree fully that the low end budget "Consumer" version will pretty much disappear. However it will continue to exist in corporate environments as a client machine and corporations consume the vast majority of that market anyhow. I don't see this changing simply because mobile hardware deployed on a large scale in a corporation tends to grow legs if you get my meaning. Your higher end desktops will continue, for the same reasons high end laptops will. There are simply too many things that can't be done on lower end hardware to even consider the notion that they would. Now as to how large of a market segment that turns out to be? That is tough to say. However for those saying it is extremely niche, i point to the fact that there are companies built exclusively around supporting that "Niche" market and are doing extremely well. So I suspect that market isn't quite as small as everyone wants to believe.

It is because of this last aspect that I have continued to argue for the option of being in a standard desktop environment. While I can fully agree that Win 8 can and probably will dominate the mobile space and while it does offer some benefits to the desktop environment, it isn't perfect. Nor was the previous iteration either for that matter. I am not against MS throwing new Ideas out there and seeing how they work. I am simply against them throwing those ideas out there without giving its paying customers a means to back out if it doesn't work quite as well as they hoped.
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I pretty much agree with all of this. I think your analysis of the tablet market and how Google, Apple and Microsoft will fit into it is spot on. Android tablets will mostly relegated to the $200 and under 7" category, iOS in the middle and Windows x86 in the middle to upper end. So Microsoft will be the Apple in the tablet space with the most expensive tablets running Windows x86. Windows RT is going to be Microsoft's attempt I think to compete with Android at the low end but that will be tough. In the middle Microsoft should be able to do better with low cost x86 devices as those do offer a lot of options, assuming that Bay Trail can offer solid desktop performance.

But yes, no Metro off switch will continue to be an issue, even when it may not affect some people as much as they protest. With the ability to lock down the Start Screen, options with the hot corner, boot to the desktop, desktop background used on the Start Screen and All Apps Screen, etc., the transition for a lot of desktop folks is going to be easier if not pretty simple especially in the enterprise where this stuff will all be configured for users. For home users, the options themselves to present a learning curve but with the right options in place depending on preference, again I think a lot people that had issues with the desktop in 8 will have a lot less or little in 8.1.

There's still more to be done, but as long as Microsoft does work on the problem, I think in time this is going to turn out to be like the ribbon in Office that was met with much resistance at first, then some improvements were made and now Office is doing better than ever. We shall see.
 
For those who have windows 8, with a simple start bar mod it really helps. I guess they figured it out this time.
 
Eradan said:
Then I apologize for being a dick. Some of your early posts in this thread included these statements... ... ...which mirrors some of the snarky, uninformed crap I hear almost daily from people whose actual exposure to the OS consists of screenshots and thousands of hate posts on some website. When I hear that stuff, it goes right up my ass. ... :)
Click to expand...

I don't know about you, but I usually like to keep my ass a one-way street (out), no matter the content.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

;)
 
xX_Jack_Carver_Xx said:
27 years later, you still can't do something you could do on an AtariST.... write notes and such on the desktop, like you can with an actual desktop in real life, a blotter, doodles, etc. :eek::cool:

Maybe in the 22nd century. :rolleyes::p
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That is asking WAY too much.
This is Microsoft we're talking about... so maybe in the 25th century. :D
 
Red Falcon said:
That is asking WAY too much.
This is Microsoft we're talking about... so maybe in the 25th century. :D
Click to expand...

There's actually a few note taking apps for the Modern UI thing that you can download for freebies from the Store. I just saw one today when I was looking around inside it.
 
CreepyUncleGoogle said:
There's actually a few note taking apps for the Modern UI thing that you can download for freebies from the Store. I just saw one today when I was looking around inside it.
Click to expand...

OneNote, comes in both Metro and desktop versions and is widely acclaimed as one of the best note taking applications ever, at least the desktop version. When it comes to actually taking notes on the desktop, there are a number of tools, past and present. One that is included with Windows for a decade and still in Windows 8 is Sticky Notes that sits on the desktop.
 
NKDietrich said:
Am I the only one who doesn't understand this undying love for the Start menu?

The start button was designed to be intuitive and easy for your grandma, not fast or efficient. Learn to use fast Windows Key searches to launch your less used apps, and keep your most used ones pinned on the taskbar. You won't miss the Start Menu after a few days.
Grandma has reason to be upset about Start Menu being gone. We don't.
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YUp, since i went to windows 8 i use the windows key / search and i never dd this before, now i do it on all my systems and computers i use with windows 7...it made me realize how much faster it is than manually looking for a program. the other items i pin to the task bar
 
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