AMD Radeon HD 7950 Video Card Review @ [H]

SonDa5 said:
You pay for the high FPS. Not a good value but a good performing video card.
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That's sort of the way it works, though... Higher performing cards tend to be far pricier.

The 7950/GTX580/7970 don't compete against the low-end or mid range cards but rather against themselves in the upper tier. As was noted already, those perf-per-dollar charts don't say anything by themselves. Unless benchmarked at various games/resolutions and then tiered, they're absolutely useless.

As far as pricing goes, it's been uttered but it needs repeating:

Blame Nvidia, not AMD. Until the GTX580 is lower in price AMD won't and shouldn't budge. The card that performs worse should be the card that's cheaper and currently Nvidia is being stubborn. AMD hasn't ever made real money on their graphics cards, finishing some years in the red. Now with good market share, great reputation for performance and low power consumption they're looking to make $$. Justifiably so, they have the better cards.
 
pelo said:
As far as pricing goes, it's been uttered but it needs repeating:

Blame Nvidia, not AMD. Until the GTX580 is lower in price AMD won't and shouldn't budge. The card that performs worse should be the card that's cheaper and currently Nvidia is being stubborn.
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At this point is nVidia even making 500s anymore? My guess is that they have no interest in the pricing of 500s and never indeed to compete with the 7000s using the 500s.
 
heatlesssun said:
At this point is nVidia even making 500s anymore? My guess is that they have no interest in the pricing of 500s and never indeed to compete with the 7000s using the 500s.
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Until Kepler's high end is finally released it's competition and at the moment it's getting spanked. You'd figure they should care. AMD certainly does. They've price-matched both cards according to Nvidia's prices to maximize profit and can carry the recommendations. At this point, who the hell would buy a GTX580? Nobody. Mind you, Nvidia's last gen wasn't exactly great in the mid and low range of the market where AMD was very very strong. Nvidia has done well in the high end. If you look at the entire 4xx/5xx 6xxx/7xxx series videocards, it's difficult to recommend a single nvidia card. Maybe the GTX460. Outside PhysX and better multi-GPU support, they're too expensive and use too much power. Nvidia is definitely worried. They can't sell their flagship card anymore at its current price and they're getting squeezed out by Intel and AMD both on the IGP end. Within a couple of years there will be no low end or mid range market for discrete GPUs so all the money will have to come from the mid/upper and upper segment of the market.

As far as graphics goes, Nvidia is in a very rough spot. Trust me, they're worried.
 
LOL @ that fan boys pointing out that the 7950/7970's are overpriced (perf/value) when all you have to do is look at the 580's.....jeeeezzz what a stretch. They've been overpriced for over a year!
 
pelo said:
Until Kepler's high end is finally released it's competition and at the moment it's getting spanked. You'd figure they should care.

...

As far as graphics goes, Nvidia is in a very rough spot. Trust me, they're worried.
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Two high end parts that comprise very little in real sales that have been out for less than a month and still don't have production drivers. If Kepler sucks then sure nVidia's probably worried. Seriously I just don't get all of this nonsense until we KNOW the what and when of Kepler.
 
Two high end parts that comprise very little in real sales that have been out for less than a month and still don't have production drivers.
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And yet they still can't stay in stock anywhere.....
 
heatlesssun said:
Two high end parts that comprise very little in real sales that have been out for less than a month and still don't have production drivers. If Kepler sucks then sure nVidia's probably worried. Seriously I just don't get all of this nonsense until we KNOW the what and when of Kepler.
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AMD is cannibalizing their own market with APUs on the low end (granted, Intel is a common enemy for Nvidia/AMD both there and doing better than AMD), and with AMD's fantastic mid-range cards it's difficult for Nvidia. That's what I mean by Nvidia being in a rough spot. There aren't many [H]ers around anymore who spend a pretty penny on premium discrete GPUs. There's the whole console and mobile thing; this isn't 2004.

The Kepler alternative won't be here for at least a couple more months if it's not delayed again so Nvidia will HAVE to decrease its price on the GTX580, otherwise they won't be selling them at all.
 
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fps4ever said:
LOL @ that fan boys pointing out that the 7950/7970's are overpriced (perf/value) when all you have to do is look at the 580's.....jeeeezzz what a stretch. They've been overpriced for over a year!
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we know the gtx580 has been a relatively poor value ever since it came out. that's the very reason that the 7970/7950 prices do not look good for next gen card. let me be more clear for you...prices only look good because they are being compared to a gtx580 which is now a last gen card that was already a poor value. :rolleyes:
 
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cannondale06 said:
we know the gtx580 has been a relatively poor value ever since it came out. that's the very reason that the 7970/7950 prices do not look good for next gen card. let me be more clear for you...prices only look good because they are being compared to a gtx580 which was is now a last gen card that was already a poor value. :rolleyes:
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I'd believe if it weren't for the guy above who bought 3 of them. He clearly had a reason to spend that much and at the time it made sense. People will feel much the same way about the 7970/7950 even if they never drop in price. You've gotta keep in mind that prices fluctuate. AMD is looking to maximize their profit by pricing their cards cheaper than the GTX580 alternative and until that 580 drops in price the 7970/7950 are good deals. First question you should ask yourself is how much I want to spend, not why the card you want is so expensive. NV/AMD both are out to make money, not do us any favors. If you can't afford it then wait it out. If you can't afford it ever then buy something else. They'll get the point. That's how I got my 5870 =P
 
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pelo said:
AMD is cannibalizing their own market with APUs on the low end (granted, Intel is a common enemy for Nvidia/AMD both there and doing better than AMD), and with AMD's fantastic mid-range cards it's difficult for Nvidia. That's what I mean by Nvidia being in a rough spot. There aren't many [H]ers around anymore who spend a pretty penny on premium discrete GPUs. There's the whole console and mobile thing; this isn't 2004.

The Kepler alternative won't be here for at least a couple more months if it's not delayed again so Nvidia will HAVE to decrease its price on the GTX580, otherwise they won't be selling them at all.
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High end cards like the 7000s and 500s have NEVER been a big part of the market, 2004 or no. nVidia is in the mobile market with Tegra. There's no reason to believe that low and mid range Keplers won't be out be out in the next couple of months and they my very well be what replaces the 580 with high end Keplers in a whole other leauge. Again, we do not know enough to say how this will play out but if nVidia plans on the 500s being the long term competition to the 7000s, beyond a couple of months, I would agree that 500s will have to come done, but nVidia doesn't seem to be doing that now and I think is an indication that the 500s are not going to be going against the 7000s much longer.

But like everything on this subject for now, its all guess work on my part, just like you.
 
pelo said:
Until Kepler's high end is finally released it's competition and at the moment it's getting spanked. You'd figure they should care. AMD certainly does. They've price-matched both cards according to Nvidia's prices to maximize profit and can carry the recommendations. At this point, who the hell would buy a GTX580? Nobody. Mind you, Nvidia's last gen wasn't exactly great in the mid and low range of the market where AMD was very very strong. Nvidia has done well in the high end. If you look at the entire 4xx/5xx 6xxx/7xxx series videocards, it's difficult to recommend a single nvidia card. Maybe the GTX460. Outside PhysX and better multi-GPU support, they're too expensive and use too much power. Nvidia is definitely worried. They can't sell their flagship card anymore at its current price and they're getting squeezed out by Intel and AMD both on the IGP end. Within a couple of years there will be no low end or mid range market for discrete GPUs so all the money will have to come from the mid/upper and upper segment of the market.

As far as graphics goes, Nvidia is in a very rough spot. Trust me, they're worried.
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Have you compared Nvidia and AMD financials lately? Nvidia is killing AMD in profitability, to the tune of something like triple AMD's profits. I really don't think Nvidia is terribly worried just because AMD currently has the ultra-high-end performance lead. People will always pay a premium for the very fastest card, so having low stock availability on the 7970 isn't exactly shocking. Heck, people paid $800 for 8800 Ultras back in the day, but the real money is made on the low-mid range, and it seems like Nvidia is pretty comfortable with where they are at there (unless Kepler gets delayed).

Edit: In 3Q, AMD had a profit of $97M on total revenues of $1.69B including both CPU and GPU (GPU was $12M profit on revenues of $403M). Nvidia had profits of $178M on revenues of $1.06B.
 
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I'm not guessing. They are competing...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102962
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133360

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130655
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161399

They have to lower their prices. Why am I so sure? Because I'm pretty certain Nvidia wants to sell those (shocker, i know) regardless of Kepler coming out this year. Kepler is an X, a variable that shouldn't even enter the current discussion. We know nothing about it, not even a concrete release date.

And as far as Nvidia being squeezed out of the GPU race, I'm certain as well.

“GPU sales unit declines in May are reported at -40% to -45% month-on-month versus expectations for -10% to -15% month-on-month. The low-end of Nvidia’s GPUs are hurt by Intel’s integrated graphics capability accompanying its “Sandy Bridge” microprocessor systems.
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http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphi...s_of_Discrete_GPUs_Dramatically_Analysts.html

Unlike AMD, Nvidia doesn't have a horse in this race, at least for x86. AMD is leagues ahead of Intel in the GPU department, so it's just a matter of catching up in the CPU department. Nvidia was smart and already entered the mobile race with their ARM license and their tegra chips, which are fantastic but they're SoCs and completely different markets, mobile vs. desktop. AMD will soon be offering mid range GPU performance on an APU, thus the reason I said the high end is so important. It'll be the last one (if ever) to get swallowed up. Nvidia will be needing GPUs like the 580 to do well, because that's the one thing they have on Intel with no x86 license.
 
cannondale06 said:
we know the gtx580 has been a relatively poor value ever since it came out. that's the very reason that the 7970/7950 prices do not look good for next gen card. let me be more clear for you...prices only look good because they are being compared to a gtx580 which was is now a last gen card that was already a poor value. :rolleyes:
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Prices look good compared to other cards as well. At $550, the 7970 is cheaper than 6970 CF, but when overclocked offers the similar performance (yes, even when the 6970's are overclocked too). The 7970 has excellent price/performance over previous, much more so than the 6xxx series offered over previous. People just complain because they can't afford a $550 card, it's as simple as that.
 
Mr. K6 said:
Prices look good compared to other cards as well. At $550, the 7970 is cheaper than 6970 CF, but when overclocked offers the similar performance (yes, even when the 6970's are overclocked too). The 7970 has excellent price/performance over previous, much more so than the 6xxx series offered over previous. People just complain because they can't afford a $550 card, it's as simple as that.
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whatever you need to tell yourself to justify your purchase. I could pay 1000 bucks but that does not mean I would. 550 bucks is silly for a next gen 28nm card card IMO. why would I pay over twice what the now last gen gtx570 cost me to get 45-50% more performance from a next gen 28nm card? that is completely backwards as I would expect much more performance per dollar from a next gen card then my now last gen gtx570. instead it is WAY less and the 7950 is no better off either costing 450 bucks. not to mention there are even a couple of games where the 7950 and 7970 cant even soundly beat the gtx580.
 
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pelo said:
Mind you, Nvidia's last gen wasn't exactly great in the mid and low range of the market where AMD was very very strong. Nvidia has done well in the high end. If you look at the entire 4xx/5xx 6xxx/7xxx series videocards, it's difficult to recommend a single nvidia card. Maybe the GTX460.
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This is a point I have seen in my own shopping experiences. I stick with nVidia products for a variety of reasons, but when you look at number of stream processors, memory type/speed/bandwidth/size, etc., their lineup hasn't been balanced very well in the 4 and 5 series. My last upgrade was from an 8800GT (bang-for-buck king in the day) to a 260GTX-216. It was priced too rich for my blood early on, but I scored a deal late in its life-cycle.

Now I look around for a performance bump comparable to that one, and what do I see? A logjam of cards with a dizzying variety of model numbers that all offer pretty much the same specs (240-430-440 etc.) then a handful that offer more power but still less than my 260 (250/450/550), and at last the 460/560 models that are a little too high for my budget. I know some have scored deals on those, but I haven't had the right timing. To get that real kick-in-the-pants I-can-crank-the-latest-games boost, it sure looks like you have to go with 570/580, and I just can't.

All that to say that in the 8000-9000 days nVidia had a great spread with some real bargain sleepers, and now it all seems to be either too little or too much.
 
fps4ever said:
Awesome, thanks for the heads up! I'll be picking up a couple of these bad boys today...I'm glad AMD ramped up production to meet demand!
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Near-Pass 7970 parts ;) You're the reason I had to get a Gigabyte 7970 instead of an XFX Black ye bastard ;)


pelo said:
AMD is cannibalizing their own market with APUs on the low end (granted, Intel is a common enemy for Nvidia/AMD both there and doing better than AMD), and with AMD's fantastic mid-range cards it's difficult for Nvidia. That's what I mean by Nvidia being in a rough spot. There aren't many [H]ers around anymore who spend a pretty penny on premium discrete GPUs. There's the whole console and mobile thing; this isn't 2004.

The Kepler alternative won't be here for at least a couple more months if it's not delayed again so Nvidia will HAVE to decrease its price on the GTX580, otherwise they won't be selling them at all.
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What the heck do you mean there aren't many [H]ers around spending our shiny pennies on premium video cards? My 7970 showed up yesterday and I'm QUITE happy with it.
 
pelo said:
They have to lower their prices. Why am I so sure? Because I'm pretty certain Nvidia wants to sell those (shocker, i know) regardless of Kepler coming out this year. Kepler is an X, a variable that shouldn't even enter the current discussion. We know nothing about it, not even a concrete release date.
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How can Kepler not be part of the discussion if it'll be out in 60 days? nVidia isn't making 500s right now anyway. At this point the price of the 500s is irrelevant, few are going to buy them right now with the 7000s out and Kepler's release probably 60 days away unless they sell at steep discounts and since nVidia is going to lose money on the deal what's the rush? They can do the steep discounts at any point and they'd probably sell better anyway when people know more about Kepler.
 
I just went back for another review of the article. I have to agree, the last page is well written and thought out.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/01/30/amd_radeon_hd_7950_video_card_review/15

The comparisons to what sit on the market are very beneficial and only demonstrate the bad pricing of the 7950 compared to both last generation cards, and the 7970. The only point I think is that the price should be closer to $350 vs. the $400 which is recommended.

The 7970 price is possibly almost justifiable (well compared to the 580 anyway), but the 7950 is supposed to be replacing the 6950 (sub $300) and instead is almost the price of the 7970, this doesn't sit well with the market and last generation card holders. How can you justify almost 2x the price of e.g. the 6950 for 1.5 times the performance... The people with 6950/6970, 560/570 have little to no motivation to go 7950, for half the price you can go sli/crossfire and get better performance.

I have a dilemma and will definitely sit on the fence on this one and wait for the market to settle, amd to come back to earth, or nvidia to release something. The only other option would be to spring for the 7970, but I will definitely not be buying the hd 7950 as it sits today (nearly $500).

Anyways, most comments have already pointed these facts out, but great article anyway! The bottom line says it all. (although you could have told the new ceo to quit trying to increase his benefits package/bonus so quickly and adjust to a decent price)
 
wand3r3r said:
The 7970 price is possibly almost justifiable (well compared to the 580 anyway), but the 7950 is supposed to be replacing the 6950 (sub $300) and instead is almost the price of the 7970, this doesn't sit well with the market and last generation card holders.
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none of that matters.

the simple fact of the matter is that cards are priced relative to their performance compared to what is currently available. because the 7950 is so close to a 580 GTX, it will be priced close to it as well.

the fact it has a "50" in the name, does not mean it "replaces" the previous 50-level card. just that it's AMD's second fastest offering behind the 70.
 
cannondale06 said:
whatever you need to tell yourself to justify your purchase. I could pay 1000 bucks but that does not mean I would. 550 bucks is silly for a next gen 28nm card card IMO. why would I pay over twice what the now last gen gtx570 cost me to get 45-50% more performance from a next gen 28nm card? that is completely backwards as I would expect much more performance per dollar from a next gen card then my now last gen gtx570. instead it is WAY less and the 7950 is no better off either costing 450 bucks. not to mention there are even a couple of games where the 7950 and 7970 cant even soundly beat the gtx580.
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See, that's exactly the kind of ad hominem that just proves my point - people complaining about the price are just upset they can't shell out $550 for the 7970. As I said, there's plenty of life in these cards if you overclock them. [H]'s review touched upon that, showing that an overclocked 7970 is 50-70% faster than an overclocked GTX 580. That's the highest margin AMD has ever had over NVIDIA. Furthermore, these cards can do even more. Mine already is hitting 1340/1750, and I'm just waiting for confirmation of safe voltages before I push it further. This is the highest margin an AMD card has ever had, and the price/performance is still there; complaining about it just shows that people are upset they can't afford the entry fee.
 
heatlesssun said:
How can Kepler not be part of the discussion if it'll be out in 60 days? nVidia isn't making 500s right now anyway. At this point the price of the 500s is irrelevant, few are going to buy them right now with the 7000s out and Kepler's release probably 60 days away unless they sell at steep discounts and since nVidia is going to lose money on the deal what's the rush? They can do the steep discounts at any point and they'd probably sell better anyway when people know more about Kepler.
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If you can install a Kepler card into your gaming box today, you can feel free to include it in the discussion.
 
Mr. K6 said:
See, that's exactly the kind of ad hominem that just proves my point - people complaining about the price are just upset they can't shell out $550 for the 7970. As I said, there's plenty of life in these cards if you overclock them. [H]'s review touched upon that, showing that an overclocked 7970 is 50-70% faster than an overclocked GTX 580. That's the highest margin AMD has ever had over NVIDIA. Furthermore, these cards can do even more. Mine already is hitting 1340/1750, and I'm just waiting for confirmation of safe voltages before I push it further. This is the highest margin an AMD card has ever had, and the price/performance is still there; complaining about it just shows that people are upset they can't afford the entry fee.
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so you just read what you want to? I can and do spend thousands of dollars on my hobbies and I can most certainly afford a $550 video card. I personally do NOT think its worth 550 bucks though and I thought I made that perfectly clear with my earlier explanation.
 
notarat said:
If you can install a Kepler card into your gaming box today, you can feel free to include it in the discussion.
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wait... maybe that's what kepler actually is!!!! some sort of device that transforms optimistic phrases like heatlesssun's "Kepler's release probably 60 days away" into actual 3D acceleration! you just hook it up into the back of your neck matrix-style and you're golden!!!
 
cannondale06 said:
so you just read what you want to? I can and do spend thousands of dollars on my hobbies and I can most certainly afford a $550 video card. I personally do NOT think its worth 550 bucks though and I thought I made that perfectly clear with my earlier explanation.
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But you have yet to deliver a logical argument as to why you wouldn't. It's more efficient, better price/performance, and has great features (this is subjective, of course). If money is no object, why would you argue against getting a 7970?
That's_Corporate said:
1340?!?! holy crap, bro!
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That's nothing, with more voltage I can hit over 1400MHz, I'm just nervous to leave it there without knowing what the maximum safe voltages are :eek:
 
Mr. K6 said:
But you have yet to deliver a logical argument as to why you wouldn't. It's more efficient, better price/performance, and has great features (this is subjective, of course). If money is no object, why would you argue against getting a 7970?

That's nothing, with more voltage I can hit over 1400MHz, I'm just nervous to leave it there without knowing what the maximum safe voltages are :eek:
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I already explained why earlier so there is no point in copying an pasting the same answer if you did not care about it the first time.

lol, dont blow your new card up now. I prefer not to mess with voltage on gpus myself.
 
cannondale06 said:
so you just read what you want to? I can and do spend thousands of dollars on my hobbies and I can most certainly afford a $550 video card. I personally do NOT think its worth 550 bucks though and I thought I made that perfectly clear with my earlier explanation.
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Just look at your rig: 2500K instead of 2600K
570 instead of 580
MSI board instead of ASUS or EVGA


There's apparently a lot of things you don't consider worth the $$$. :)
 
That's_Corporate said:
oft|Forum may be more your speed
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yeah because anybody that does not push their systems to within an inch of damaging it is not worthy of being here. :rolleyes:

I do oc but I do not like to push my hardware to the limits. when I sell my stuff, I like to know that the next person will also get plenty of use and enjoyment out of it. but if you want to push your stuff to the limits then knock yourself out.
 
notarat said:
If you can install a Kepler card into your gaming box today, you can feel free to include it in the discussion.
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The conversation had to do with nVidia lowering the prices on the 500s. I'm saying that at this point the 500s are of no concern to nVidia and they aren't trying to drive any sales or revenue from them. The 500s aren't competitive with the 7000s and nVidia isn't trying to make the 500s competitive with pricing because that's the point of Kepler.
 
cannondale06 said:
yeah because anybody that does not push their systems to within an inch of damaging it is not worthy of being here. :rolleyes:
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yes

at least, that's what [H] USED to be...

and your misguided altruistic mother theresa-esque "i like to know that the next person will also get plenty of use and enjoyment out of it" is the biggest load of BS i've read in a long time
 
cannondale06 said:
I already explained why earlier so there is no point in copying an pasting the same answer if you did not care about it the first time
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But you made incorrect arguments based on logical fallacies. Flagship models always carry a price premium and always will. The fact that you use indirect comparisons of rare fire sale prices (GTX 570) vs. MSRP's (7970) to dictate your argument shows how completely disconnected you are from the reality of hardware. Your original point was:
cannondale06 said:
we know the gtx580 has been a relatively poor value ever since it came out. that's the very reason that the 7970/7950 prices do not look good for next gen card. let me be more clear for you...prices only look good because they are being compared to a gtx580 which is now a last gen card that was already a poor value. :rolleyes:
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Which is wrong. Just looking at Newegg, the cheapest GTX 570 AR is $310, the cheapest 6950 2GB is $250. Even compared to these cards in CF/SLI, the 7970 still offers similar price performance, without the drawbacks of multi-GPU, and has more vRAM, is more efficient, etc. You then changed your argument to say you personally wouldn't buy a 7970 because you got a GTX 570 so cheap earlier. Which is fine, but that's not what any of us were discussing, and changing the argument to something irrelevant doesn't add to the discussion. Furthermore, I don't think anyone here would use last generation sale prices to compare to a brand new flagship part, that's ridiculous, so why are you doing it?
cannondale06 said:
lol, dont blow your new card up now. I prefer not to mess with voltage on gpus myself.
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Your loss.
 
cannondale06 said:
yeah because anybody that does not push their systems to within an inch of damaging it is not worthy of being here. :rolleyes:

I do oc but I do not like to push my hardware to the limits. when I sell my stuff, I like to know that the next person will also get plenty of use and enjoyment out of it. but if you want to push your stuff to the limits then knock yourself out.
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Because you lack the knowledge or experience to safely and properly overclock hardware does not mean everyone else here does as well.
 
That's_Corporate said:
yes

at least, that's what [H] USED to be...

and your misguided altruistic mother theresa-esque "i like to know that the next person will also get plenty of use and enjoyment out of it" is the biggest load of BS i've read in a long time
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how is that BS? that's exactly how I feel. I take care of ALL my stuff including bikes and cars and the next owner gets something that can get enjoyment out of. you are an idiot if you cant understand that some people do not like to trash their stuff. people like you are the reason that I do not ever buy anything used though.
 
cannondale06 said:
how is that BS? that's exactly how I feel. I take care of ALL my stuff including bikes and cars and the next owner gets something that can get enjoyment out of. you are an idiot if you cant understand that some people do not like to trash their stuff. people like you are the reason that I do not ever buy anything used though.
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yes, some people do not like to trash their stuff for their own selfish reasons of wanting to have nice things in nice condition.

but to suggest that someone would take good care of their own car not for themselves, but for the benefit of the next owner, is like not screwing your girlfriend so she's in good condition for her next boyfriend.

no human exists that is as altruistic as you suggest. simple fact is, you're lying about how important the next owner is to you.
 
That's_Corporate said:
yes, some people do not like to trash their stuff for their own selfish reasons of wanting to have nice things in nice condition.

but to suggest that someone would take good care of their own car not for themselves, but for the benefit of the next owner, is like not screwing your girlfriend so she's in good condition for her next boyfriend.

no human exists that is as altruistic as you suggest. simple fact is, you're lying about how important the next owner is to you.
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I think it's just a deflection from the real point - lack of knowledge or experience to do it properly. This is a childish stance to take: "since I can't do this, it is therefore bad and anyone who does it is also bad in some way."
 
That's_Corporate said:
yes, some people do not like to trash their stuff for their own selfish reasons of wanting to have nice things in nice condition.

but to suggest that someone would take good care of their own car not for themselves, but for the benefit of the next owner, is like not screwing your girlfriend so she's in good condition for her next boyfriend.

no human exists that is as altruistic as you suggest. simple fact is, you're lying about how important the next owner is to you.
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wtf would I lie about that for? I most certainly think about that stuff. just because you have no regard for stuff like that does not mean others don't. the girlfriend analogy just shows what an idiot you are though.
 
Mr. K6 said:
I think it's just a deflection from the real point - lack of knowledge or experience to do it properly. This is a childish stance to take: "since I can't do this, it is therefore bad and anyone who does it is also bad in some way."
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couldn't agree more - validates their own inabilities
 
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