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Dealing with none technical IT Managers
- Thread starter Jay_2
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I have been in IT for almost 15 years. It happens all the time. These dumbass managers make very good money. They all have talent in Bullshitting techniques.
I had a manager once, who read about this "new" product coming out, in a magazine he was reading while on his flight. He came to me and said, "we are implementing this solution, and I need to done right away!!"
I said "a solution to what problem?" He got pissed because I asked why. So anyways, I installed this so called "solution", and it was complete crap. It was a waste of time, energy, and money.
And he probably B.S'd he way to his manager. LOL
Welcome to corporate IT folks...
I had a manager once, who read about this "new" product coming out, in a magazine he was reading while on his flight. He came to me and said, "we are implementing this solution, and I need to done right away!!"
I said "a solution to what problem?" He got pissed because I asked why. So anyways, I installed this so called "solution", and it was complete crap. It was a waste of time, energy, and money.
And he probably B.S'd he way to his manager. LOL
Welcome to corporate IT folks...
I just tend to throw in some buzzwords (like XML, Ethernet token, deep inside the mainframe) and it works out. They're more impressed with it than the actual terminology.
"Yeah, I was working on that issue, but then the XML database got locked into an Ethernet token ring and I had to dig it out from deep inside the mainframe."
"Oh, uh, good work."
"Yeah, I was working on that issue, but then the XML database got locked into an Ethernet token ring and I had to dig it out from deep inside the mainframe."
"Oh, uh, good work."
Or the head chef at a steakhouse who's a vegan...
and cant cook
In my experience these people got to where they are because
1: They are excellent business managers (by excellent I don't mean that they are really good at managing people / departments, they are really good at keeping things in line with the companies goals) and when a promotion came up IT was the department that needed a manager.
2: They are that manager that no other department wants, and therefore they are given to IT where it is assumed they can't really do any damage because the sysadmins take care of everything anyway.
3: They are just the most senior IT person (not the one who knows the most, just the one who has been there the longest) and therefore fell into the job even though they aren't qualified to even deploy a printer.
4: "Back in the days of VAX I was king" Guys who used to know a lot and climbed the ladder quickly, but have stagnated as they fill their day with micromanagement instead of keeping current with technology, and forgetting a lot of what they knew.
I usually deal with these people the same way I deal with end users who think they know what they are doing. If things break give them super detailed technical breakdowns of root cause and restore process. If I am trying to buy something new I need put it in the simplest terms I can, and make them understand how this is going to make their life better (regardless of what it does to mine). If they come to me with a really stupid idea, or something that is going to make my life a pain in the ass I respond by giving them a very business oriented explanation on why what they want is dumb (IE bringing up TCO of their new product / service vs what we have now, Man hours required for implementation and upkeep, what benefit this will give to the end user etc).
Now usually these steps get them to back off and give me my way because I am speaking to them with terms they can understand. However every once in a while you get someone who is really dumb and or stubborn and that is the point at which you go over their head. If you are trying to bu say a new backup solution and you are getting lots of pushback for no reason and you put it up the ladder sometimes the higher ups will see that they don't understand the technical side, but understand the business justification and will approve it for you. If this happens more then a few times they may make changes to the management of the IT department.
Just remember folks, managers are not there to do or understand they are just there to manage.
1: They are excellent business managers (by excellent I don't mean that they are really good at managing people / departments, they are really good at keeping things in line with the companies goals) and when a promotion came up IT was the department that needed a manager.
2: They are that manager that no other department wants, and therefore they are given to IT where it is assumed they can't really do any damage because the sysadmins take care of everything anyway.
3: They are just the most senior IT person (not the one who knows the most, just the one who has been there the longest) and therefore fell into the job even though they aren't qualified to even deploy a printer.
4: "Back in the days of VAX I was king" Guys who used to know a lot and climbed the ladder quickly, but have stagnated as they fill their day with micromanagement instead of keeping current with technology, and forgetting a lot of what they knew.
I usually deal with these people the same way I deal with end users who think they know what they are doing. If things break give them super detailed technical breakdowns of root cause and restore process. If I am trying to buy something new I need put it in the simplest terms I can, and make them understand how this is going to make their life better (regardless of what it does to mine). If they come to me with a really stupid idea, or something that is going to make my life a pain in the ass I respond by giving them a very business oriented explanation on why what they want is dumb (IE bringing up TCO of their new product / service vs what we have now, Man hours required for implementation and upkeep, what benefit this will give to the end user etc).
Now usually these steps get them to back off and give me my way because I am speaking to them with terms they can understand. However every once in a while you get someone who is really dumb and or stubborn and that is the point at which you go over their head. If you are trying to bu say a new backup solution and you are getting lots of pushback for no reason and you put it up the ladder sometimes the higher ups will see that they don't understand the technical side, but understand the business justification and will approve it for you. If this happens more then a few times they may make changes to the management of the IT department.
Just remember folks, managers are not there to do or understand they are just there to manage.
exchange keys
Limp Gawd
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- Feb 18, 2009
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- 339
It was probably due to their credentials. However, I've met some managers/directors/VPs of IT who knew the fundamentals and were overall smart people. Unfortunately, because their role is to mainly operate/delegate tasks and do project management, they tend lose their technical edge/contemporary knowledge. Which is why, sometimes, you see that 10-20 year old IT veteran still managing his/her department like it was the mid-90s.
This was my last manager. He wasn't bad, he definitely understood the fundamentals and the general workflow... so he wasn't a pain to work with. He might not be 100% up to date on how everything is exactly done, but he didn't expect the impossible from people and he wasn't easily fooled on tech.
I've had managers though that have NO real IT experience, and *THAT* is a pain. They just don't understand how things work.
There's a difference between idiotic managers, in Motley's example, and managers who manage and delegate tasks without a lot of IT experience.
There's not much you can do with the former, but for the latter just work with them, not against them, answer their questions simply but thoroughly without a "because I said so" or "it's obvious why!" attitude.
Heck there's a lot to managing that makes a difference when it's done well that we may not want to do ourselves.
There's not much you can do with the former, but for the latter just work with them, not against them, answer their questions simply but thoroughly without a "because I said so" or "it's obvious why!" attitude.
Heck there's a lot to managing that makes a difference when it's done well that we may not want to do ourselves.
You all missed another type. The one who thinks they know and tries to help.
This one will rearrange your patch panel while you're out with the flu.
Vlans? What Vlans?
Why is the T1 plugged into the switch? /run outside to puke and shiver, stagger back inside, what the... there isn't anything even punched down on this panel.
You will also hear things like :
" I deleted xxxxx out of the registry and now..."
" What's the root password to X?"
" Why don't I have Domain Admin rights?"
And this one was my fault for not cleaning up after myself after a 4 am Duct Tape special.
" When I came in I saw that XX Domain controller was off, I saw the note that said corrupted, but I turned it on anyway. Oh, by the way these users can't log on..."
This one will rearrange your patch panel while you're out with the flu.
Vlans? What Vlans?
Why is the T1 plugged into the switch? /run outside to puke and shiver, stagger back inside, what the... there isn't anything even punched down on this panel.
You will also hear things like :
" I deleted xxxxx out of the registry and now..."
" What's the root password to X?"
" Why don't I have Domain Admin rights?"
And this one was my fault for not cleaning up after myself after a 4 am Duct Tape special.
" When I came in I saw that XX Domain controller was off, I saw the note that said corrupted, but I turned it on anyway. Oh, by the way these users can't log on..."
Trepidati0n
[H]F Junkie
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- Oct 26, 2004
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- 9,269
The managers that know nothing but have people skills are fine. You just need to come to an agreement that is mutually beneficial. If you do it right, they will take you on their way to the top and you get to keep geeking out.
Personally I don't mind them much. They almost always just take my word for whatever I say. Though I don't deal with those kind anymore now that I'm not at a big company.
It's the arrogant, yet terrible network engineers I deal with from vendors that I absolutely cannot stand. Unfortunately the story below actually happened last week.
them: "Something is clearly wrong with your network, we have no reported issues."
me: "I have a sniffer plugged in and it shows packets leaving my interface, hitting your router, and then your router sends back an ICMP unreachable to me .. do you have your ACLs set properly?"
them: "That can't be true. i don't see anything in the log. your network isnt sending it."
me: "CAN I SPEAK TO A REAL NETWORK ENGINEER PLEASE? Or do I have to play redial roulette until I find someone who knows what they're doing?"
It's the arrogant, yet terrible network engineers I deal with from vendors that I absolutely cannot stand. Unfortunately the story below actually happened last week.
them: "Something is clearly wrong with your network, we have no reported issues."
me: "I have a sniffer plugged in and it shows packets leaving my interface, hitting your router, and then your router sends back an ICMP unreachable to me .. do you have your ACLs set properly?"
them: "That can't be true. i don't see anything in the log. your network isnt sending it."
me: "CAN I SPEAK TO A REAL NETWORK ENGINEER PLEASE? Or do I have to play redial roulette until I find someone who knows what they're doing?"
Vito_Corleone
[H]ard|Gawd
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- Dec 17, 2006
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- 1,730
One doesn't have to be technical to be a good IT/engineering manager. I've had good technical managers and good non-technical managers.
Honestly, I'm 50/50 about it. It's nice to have a manager who can identify with you during outages and other high-stress situations. But it's also nice when your manager doesn't know wtf you're talking about and, therefore, doesn't second-guess you constantly.
Honestly, I'm 50/50 about it. It's nice to have a manager who can identify with you during outages and other high-stress situations. But it's also nice when your manager doesn't know wtf you're talking about and, therefore, doesn't second-guess you constantly.
I don't mind the managers who don't know anything and KNOW that they don't know much, so they delegate tasks or ASK the people under them for a solution/suggestion.
It's the managers who don't know, but thin they know, that cause the most problems.
I can live with either (I prefer the former) but one thing I absolutely CANNOT stand is a micro-manager. Let me do my job, if you don't trust me to do it why am I even here?
It's the managers who don't know, but thin they know, that cause the most problems.
I can live with either (I prefer the former) but one thing I absolutely CANNOT stand is a micro-manager. Let me do my job, if you don't trust me to do it why am I even here?
Mine insists winzip is better than 7zip or winrar.
Of course she also prints out emails for me to look at and asks me to respond to them.
Mine insists winzip is better than 7zip or winrar.
Of course she also prints out emails for me to look at and asks me to respond to them.
7zip > all.
1 - You have to work on your skills to appeal to their non-technical sensibilities instead of trying to "out-tech" them.
2 - You need to make their life easier - that is the life-goal of the "manager species" - to do absolutely nothing productive and get all the credit and pay.
3 - You should be aware that they're catching a shit-storm anytime you fuck up too - whether or not you hear about it.
4 - Don't put too much energy into arguing technical points with them (back to point # 1). You being right or having facts or evidence on your side has nothing to do with the way they see a problem. Spend your time understanding their point and build upon it with your correct solution instead of trying to sandbag their bad idea off the bat.
5 - Remember that you're their employee - good or bad. You can either work within the framework that creates, or get another job (or spend a lot of effort on trying to get them fired, I suppose). If you find a way to turn their management style to your advantage, a non-technical manager can be a great thing for your independence and professional autonomy.
It'll force you to work on your schmoozing and BSing skills - which unfortunately is the entire foundation upon which 99% of business is built.
2 - You need to make their life easier - that is the life-goal of the "manager species" - to do absolutely nothing productive and get all the credit and pay.
3 - You should be aware that they're catching a shit-storm anytime you fuck up too - whether or not you hear about it.
4 - Don't put too much energy into arguing technical points with them (back to point # 1). You being right or having facts or evidence on your side has nothing to do with the way they see a problem. Spend your time understanding their point and build upon it with your correct solution instead of trying to sandbag their bad idea off the bat.
5 - Remember that you're their employee - good or bad. You can either work within the framework that creates, or get another job (or spend a lot of effort on trying to get them fired, I suppose). If you find a way to turn their management style to your advantage, a non-technical manager can be a great thing for your independence and professional autonomy.
It'll force you to work on your schmoozing and BSing skills - which unfortunately is the entire foundation upon which 99% of business is built.
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QFT. Some people hate politics and selling, but they're something a fact of life, especially as the stakes increase.
Will add the caveat that one should watch out for the managers that got their position through ruthlessness and / or double-dealing. Some environments are more prone to this type than others depending on the organization's culture. You don't want to be thrown under the bus without cause or be held back because you're not getting a share of the credit for the wins you help bring to your manager. You want to be in a situation where you share in the victories and back each other up in the tough situations.
Corollary to the above, managers should watch out for any of the employees that would exaggerate their contributions to the organization, especially at the expense of the rest of the team or the manager himself. Ruthless managers in the making, assuming they don't alienate everyone in the process. Worse yet are those that blame their incompetence on others.
Managers should be skilled enough to know what their team needs and to deliver these things or provide good reasons why they can't be provided, offer alternatives, etc, and be skilled enough in the industry / field as needed to direct the team, or recognize those with good judgement and skill to back them up, and then above all maintain good working relationships and rise up together.
Managers should be skilled enough to know what their team needs and to deliver these things or provide good reasons why they can't be provided, offer alternatives, etc, and be skilled enough in the industry / field as needed to direct the team, or recognize those with good judgement and skill to back them up, and then above all maintain good working relationships and rise up together.
You just SSH into the router matrix and add a new sub interface for the leased line on the parent port, then replicate the changes through the network topology and then write the running config to the startup config.
Pretty easy yo!
It is a new line, not an upgrade or migrate. I have 0 connectivity to the site until the router is in place
I will have them post it to me and will config it here and post it back.
Call someone there on a cel phone. Have them hold the phone close to the router. Yell loudly at it.
Tell the boss that the voice interface must be broken, they better send it back.
Just_Visiting
Weaksauce
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- Feb 3, 2008
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- 77
My fiancee works for an IT manager like that. He's been talking about vmware for about 3 years now. Been to all kinds of seminars and training, but yet, he's only done the bare metal install of the hypervisor. Not a single vm implemented yet. He has a system admin that works for him that he won't give admin privileges to on some systems. Total douche. Same thing for their AD rollout. Lots of training, but nothing implemented. I work as a technology manager. I have a sys admin/network admin, a couple of techs that support mac/pc and av events. A manager's role can keep them removed from staying current on some technologies, but a good manager knows how to hire, motivate, and guide their employees to be successful. A good manager should be able to fill in for any of their employees. That's where documentation comes into play.
How about getting 90% through a project only to be pulled off it to start another one, while also having other projects at different stages of completion.
Oh and then in about 2 months you get a call I need you to go to XYZ to finish that project you have 24 hours.
Or when they make a decision based on knowledge and experience they think they have but they just don't.
I have met IT managers that have had about 2 years hands on 10 years + ago implementing the company network when it was one server 1 site 5 offices and as the business has grown they have employed tech people below them to do more and more of the work. Now they are top of the tree still with only the experience they gained 10 years ago on that small office network. They still try to convince people (mainly their bosses) that they are still in the loop but also know deep down they don’t know enough to do first line. These are the danger managers, the people who make decisions they know they shouldn’t but have to to bolster their image. The defensive, secretive, non communication, doors shut managers who, due to their need to justify their position make snap decisions without consulting the real people who run the department, the help desk manager and third line guys.
Oh and then in about 2 months you get a call I need you to go to XYZ to finish that project you have 24 hours.
Or when they make a decision based on knowledge and experience they think they have but they just don't.
I have met IT managers that have had about 2 years hands on 10 years + ago implementing the company network when it was one server 1 site 5 offices and as the business has grown they have employed tech people below them to do more and more of the work. Now they are top of the tree still with only the experience they gained 10 years ago on that small office network. They still try to convince people (mainly their bosses) that they are still in the loop but also know deep down they don’t know enough to do first line. These are the danger managers, the people who make decisions they know they shouldn’t but have to to bolster their image. The defensive, secretive, non communication, doors shut managers who, due to their need to justify their position make snap decisions without consulting the real people who run the department, the help desk manager and third line guys.
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RESTfulADI
2[H]4U
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- 2,218
These people can be your best friend or your worst enemy, I have been under both kinds. The good ones know that giving the engineers a hard time will not help them either or make them look any better.
Trepidati0n
[H]F Junkie
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People who end up never getting into management spend lots of time thinking about how awesome they are compared to their managers and bitcing about how they are being repressed by the man.
I lold
I love it when none tech tell you how long it should take, I always ask myself what do they base this on? It actually happened to me recently.
or woman. in my case
If you have none technical IT managers who's role is deemed by the people at the top as a technical role it puts lots of pressure on 3rd line, too much pressure. Its ok to have a none tech IT manager if their role is a people managers role, because the business will then put someone close under this person who has the final word on technical and who the manager should never over rule. These two people have to work together as a unit to make it work but should have very clearly defined roles in the business.
I have had none tech IT managers who where just there to manage the people and the work load, that is fine, it works very well.
I have no time for none tech people in high up tech roles who just palm off the resposability to the most senior 3rd line tech, its unfair. In my eyes a manager should be there to remove obstacals from getting the job done they should never actually be the obstacal.
Here is an example of how these people get in the way....
They go to all preliminary meetings on a new project, take no one with them, view demos and get to play with new technology for the project etc then when it gets to actually starting the project they hand it over to 3rd line for them to sort out, expecting they arrange contracts, prices, time scales etc. 3rd line never got a chance to ask the questions or see the tech in action and the manager has no idea what they looked at and didn't have a clue on what to ask..... normally asking questions of 3rd line such as "do we use vlans?" when they question they really wanted to ask is "what is a vlan?"
I love it when none tech tell you how long it should take, I always ask myself what do they base this on? It actually happened to me recently.
or woman.
in my caseIf you have none technical IT managers who's role is deemed by the people at the top as a technical role it puts lots of pressure on 3rd line, too much pressure. Its ok to have a none tech IT manager if their role is a people managers role, because the business will then put someone close under this person who has the final word on technical and who the manager should never over rule. These two people have to work together as a unit to make it work but should have very clearly defined roles in the business.
I have had none tech IT managers who where just there to manage the people and the work load, that is fine, it works very well.
I have no time for none tech people in high up tech roles who just palm off the resposability to the most senior 3rd line tech, its unfair. In my eyes a manager should be there to remove obstacals from getting the job done they should never actually be the obstacal.
Here is an example of how these people get in the way....
They go to all preliminary meetings on a new project, take no one with them, view demos and get to play with new technology for the project etc then when it gets to actually starting the project they hand it over to 3rd line for them to sort out, expecting they arrange contracts, prices, time scales etc. 3rd line never got a chance to ask the questions or see the tech in action and the manager has no idea what they looked at and didn't have a clue on what to ask..... normally asking questions of 3rd line such as "do we use vlans?" when they question they really wanted to ask is "what is a vlan?"
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Starbucks I.T manager: So, how would You configure a remote location PC to accept DHCP?
Me: Is there a Router over there?
Starbucks I.T manager: No.
Me: Input manually address, since there is no terminal device.
Starbucks I.T manager: The CORRECT answer is - configure HQ Router to achieve X amount of Hop counts to remote location.
Me: But, I thought you said there is no Router on remote location.....?
*face-palm* Myself, everytime I think about that Phone-interview.
Me: Is there a Router over there?
Starbucks I.T manager: No.
Me: Input manually address, since there is no terminal device.
Starbucks I.T manager: The CORRECT answer is - configure HQ Router to achieve X amount of Hop counts to remote location.
Me: But, I thought you said there is no Router on remote location.....?
*face-palm* Myself, everytime I think about that Phone-interview.
Sounds like my manager/administrator. Those snap decisions are made all the time and it scares me. Its crazy how quick of a decision she will make on something that she has absolutely no understanding of and then I am left helping with implementing something that I know is going to fail before I even start the project.