Gaming/School build....help appreciated

D

diesel_man

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Jul 15, 2011
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Hey everyone my names Benji, and i'm looking to build/upgrade a computer of mine. I built this computer about 5 years ago when I was 15, and i've kinda been out of the tech game for awhile. I'm sure putting it together will be a breeze, but i'm unfamiliar with the hardware out. My computer finally crapped out; it was freezing at bios and then finally would no longer turn on, I believe the motherboard finally failed, I had for the past years dealt with a sporadic computer, i'm sure due to surges in the past. I'm going to use the same Nzxt Apollo case,hd, and cd drive. I have a corsair hx520 psu, but I think it's no longer stable enough. Basically this build is from scratch. I have a mouse,keyboard, 24 inch gateway monitor,speakers,hd, and cd drive. I'm looking to stay amd and to be able to play a few games here and there like sc2 on somewhat high settings and maybe Dragon Age 2. Of course budget is what you guys need to hear and my last system was a budget one that I overclocked on. I'm looking to overclock again a tad-bit and so i'm going to buy an aftermarket heatsink/cooler. Budget is $500-550. I need cpu,mobo,gpu,ram,psu,heatsink/cooler. Suggestions are appreciated, and here's what i've come up with so far

PSU -http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371016 $65
Mobo- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131647 $105
CPU- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103940 $90
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103652 $75
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103808 $120
GPU- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150506 $195
RAM-http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231428 $70
Heatsink/Cooler- http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5267687&CatId=499 $55
 
It would help if you broke up that long post into more understandable paragraphs or a list.

Additional questions:
3) Where do you live?
8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? eSATA? Onboard video? etc.
10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? 32bit or 64bit?

As for the build list you've provided, don't go with any of those parts as many of them are not good choices for the money.
 
 
This PSU will be $35 on the shell shocker today, I would pick one up if you are planning on a single graphics card-
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371030

One big thing is the OS- do you have one?

A quick thing before I find cpu/mobo/gpu:
If you want the H50, check your local best buy and see if they still have any on clearance, they were down to $40 at my store.
 
Motherboard: Gigabyte 990FX (Bulldozer ready) $160-
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128514

CPU: Phenom 955 BE $110-
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103808

Ram: Gskill 8GB 1333 + free flash drive $58
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231424

Power Supply: Antec Neo shell shocker today $35-
http://www.newegg.com/Special/ShellShocker.aspx?cm_sp=ShellShocker-_-17-371-030-_-07182011_2

Heatsink: Xiggy Gaia $30-
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233082

GPU: Sapphire 6870 $155 AR-
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102948

This puts you at $548 + tax and shipping. If you want to slim it down, I like this board-
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157262

I believe it is hte only 970 listed with 8x/8x support (all others are 16/4). So, this will give you the upgrade path to bulldozer, and shave off $55, while retaining the ability to crossfire later.


On the cpus you have listed- I would not go with the 925 due to the locked multi. The tri core is good, but if you are going 5 years in between builds, go for the quad core. The 955 is an excellent value, with newegg's $10 off today code (today is the last day) putting it at $110. My roommate runs his at 3.8 under air no problem.

That PSU has 40a on the single 12v rail. The 6870 has a TDP of 150w (12.5a).
 
Danny Bui said:
It would help if you broke up that long post into more understandable paragraphs or a list.

Additional questions:
3) Where do you live?
8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? eSATA? Onboard video? etc.
10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? 32bit or 64bit?

As for the build list you've provided, don't go with any of those parts as many of them are not good choices for the money.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry about the illiterate jumbled mess I previously wrote. It was late and I had a lot of things just brimming off the top of my head.
Anyways, I live in Houston,TX and I plan on buying parts at the start of August, and eventually finishing the build by mid August. I'm not against picking something up right now like a psu if the price is right, but i'd like to hold off on the cpu/mobo till i'm at the end. If I accomplish this time frame for the build it will give me a couple weeks before school starts to enjoy it :) haha. I work close to the tech department at my college, so they can give me a free license and I think they have 64 bit,I hope. If not I still have another license I can use to save me time before the 64 bit upgrade.I do not need crossfire/SLI, Raid, firewire, but I would like usb 3.0 and sata 6g.
Some questions I have are
1- What is wrong with the psu I linked, preferably I'd like modular cables as my case has a window and my hx520 was modular and I liked that a lot, but if it's too expensive I guess I can pass this time.
2- Do the number of phases matter on the board for overclocking, i've read that Asus boards fry the least do to more phases and better quality?
3- What would be the best budget cpu, and I should be looking for an unlocked multiplier to make it much easier?
 
Mr34727 said:
This PSU will be $35 on the shell shocker today, I would pick one up if you are planning on a single graphics card-
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371030

One big thing is the OS- do you have one?

A quick thing before I find cpu/mobo/gpu:
If you want the H50, check your local best buy and see if they still have any on clearance, they were down to $40 at my store.
Click to expand...

I'll swing by Best Buy soon to see if they have anything on clearance, I really appreciate all the input guys.
 
diesel_man said:
Some questions I have are
1- What is wrong with the psu I linked, preferably I'd like modular cables as my case has a window and my hx520 was modular and I liked that a lot, but if it's too expensive I guess I can pass this time.
Click to expand...
The Antec Basiq is not a good PSU in terms of quality or performance. It's a low-end PSU basically. If you want a modular PSU, this is the cheapest that I can recommend:
$102 - SeaSonic M12II 520 Bronze 520W Modular PSU

If you can't afford that, get the PSU deal that Mr34727 pointed out.
diesel_man said:
2- Do the number of phases matter on the board for overclocking, i've read that Asus boards fry the least do to more phases and better quality?
Click to expand...
Number of Phases do matter up to a certain point. I.e 16 phases isn't really that more helpful over 8 phases and such. However what you've read is completely false: Asus mobos fail just as often as any other motherboard manufacturer.
diesel_man said:
3- What would be the best budget cpu, and I should be looking for an unlocked multiplier to make it much easier?
Click to expand...
It's basically the Intel Core i3 2100 IMO right now. Costs $120 but outperforms many of AMD's $160 to $180 in video games. Even in games that scales well with quad-cores, it's been shown that AMD's more expensive quad-cores, even when OC'd, barely beats the Core i3 2100.

Now as for your purchase plans, come back after the first week of August and ask for advice on the CPU and mobo. Reason being is that we'll know what Newegg's August CPU + mobo combo deals will be by then. Those will save you quite a bit of money.
 
True, the i3 2100 is an excellent performer- I only recommended the 955 because you said you wanted to stay AMD. This site will help you compare easily-
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/88?vs=289

The only thing I would say, is keep in mind that non-K series intel chips can't overclock, so if you are planning to OC, a BE AMD chip might edge out the Intel competition.

About boards- most top tier manufacturers are going to give you similar reliability. The only boards that have ever gone out on me are Foxconn and Asus, but I will still buy either- it could happen to any manufacturer. For AMD chips, I would recommend getting the 8+2 power phase.

Both the Sandy Bridge and AM3/AM3+ use dual channel DDR3, so I would say you can go ahead and pick up ram and a PSU if a deal pops up. Looks like that 520w sold out, hopefully you got one- you won't find another deal like that for awhile.

About the H50- check online for in store availability.
 
diesel_man said:
What is wrong with the psu I linked, preferably I'd like modular cables as my case has a window and my hx520 was modular and I liked that a lot, but if it's too expensive I guess I can pass this time.
Click to expand...

The problem with the Basiq 550+ is that it should have cost no more than about $40 (based on its quality and performance). But it actually costs a whopping $63 shipped! At that price, there are better-performing and more powerful PSUs available. In other words, that PSU costs much more money than it's worth.
 
Danny Bui said:
The Antec Basiq is not a good PSU in terms of quality or performance. It's a low-end PSU basically. If you want a modular PSU, this is the cheapest that I can recommend:
$102 - SeaSonic M12II 520 Bronze 520W Modular PSU

If you can't afford that, get the PSU deal that Mr34727 pointed out.

Number of Phases do matter up to a certain point. I.e 16 phases isn't really that more helpful over 8 phases and such. However what you've read is completely false: Asus mobos fail just as often as any other motherboard manufacturer.

It's basically the Intel Core i3 2100 IMO right now. Costs $120 but outperforms many of AMD's $160 to $180 in video games. Even in games that scales well with quad-cores, it's been shown that AMD's more expensive quad-cores, even when OC'd, barely beats the Core i3 2100.

Now as for your purchase plans, come back after the first week of August and ask for advice on the CPU and mobo. Reason being is that we'll know what Newegg's August CPU + mobo combo deals will be by then. Those will save you quite a bit of money.
Click to expand...

PSU- okay i'm not quite understanding why the one I suggested is so lowly revered, it has a 5 star rating and is made by a reputable company. Maybe i'm missing something, but yes that is too much on the high end for me to get. Unfortunately, I missed the deal on that psu suggested, was weighing my options too long.

CPU/MOBO- Yeah I think that's good advice on when to buy, and i'll update or make a new post then. Thx for clearing up the phases, kinda what I thought, I guess it just depends on the quality of the phases.
I want to stay AMD, I'm a loyalist when it comes to that haha.
Ram-Psu /
I also asked the tech department at the school and they can hook me up with a 64 bit windows 7. I guess that means I should be going for 8 gigs of ram. I'm ready to buy the ram and psu . I guess I need to be guided in the right direction for good budget psu/ and ram.
 
diesel_man said:
PSU- okay i'm not quite understanding why the one I suggested is so lowly revered, it has a 5 star rating and is made by a reputable company. Maybe i'm missing something, but yes that is too much on the high end for me to get. Unfortunately, I missed the deal on that psu suggested, was weighing my options too long.
Click to expand...
Yes Antec is a reputable company but they still select/brand some crappy or low-end PSUs. Remember that Antec, like virtually every PSU company out there, don't actually make their own PSUs. They simply choose a design from a PSU OEM, maybe tweak, improve or leave it alone, and then have that PSU OEM make them.

Also note that Newegg reviews when it comes to PSUs should be taken with a grain of salt. Plenty of shitty and crappy PSUs have gotten 4 and 5 star ratings on Newegg.

Anyway as E4g1e pointed out, the Basiq's performance and quality makes it a $40 PSU. At $65, it's too expensive considering the quality of other PSUs in that very price range

I recommend this PSU as a result:
$70 - Antec NEO ECO 620C 620W PSU

It's of significantly better quality than the Antec Basiq, has more power, and is a much much better value than the Antec Basiq.
 
Danny Bui said:
Yes Antec is a reputable company but they still select/brand some crappy or low-end PSUs. Remember that Antec, like virtually every PSU company out there, don't actually make their own PSUs. They simply choose a design from a PSU OEM, maybe tweak, improve or leave it alone, and then have that PSU OEM make them.

Also note that Newegg reviews when it comes to PSUs should be taken with a grain of salt. Plenty of shitty and crappy PSUs have gotten 4 and 5 star ratings on Newegg.

Anyway as E4g1e pointed out, the Basiq's performance and quality makes it a $40 PSU. At $65, it's too expensive considering the quality of other PSUs in that very price range

I recommend this PSU as a result:
$70 - Antec NEO ECO 620C 620W PSU

It's of significantly better quality than the Antec Basiq, has more power, and is a much much better value than the Antec Basiq.
Click to expand...
Okay I really do appreciate all the help you're giving me. Since we've established i'll wait on the mobo/cpu till after the first week of August. What is it I should look at when comparing Psu's. I assume i'll be getting a AMD quad BE chip, using a 6870 ATI card, and using a 64 bit version of Windows, and running 2-3 drives.
Ram-
Also what ram should I be looking at as far as ddr3?
 
diesel_man said:
Okay I really do appreciate all the help you're giving me. Since we've established i'll wait on the mobo/cpu till after the first week of August. What is it I should look at when comparing Psu's. I assume i'll be getting a AMD quad BE chip, using a 6870 ATI card, and using a 64 bit version of Windows, and running 2-3 drives.
Click to expand...
At least 40A on the +12V rail. That basically means at least a 520W PSU or higher. Make sure it's branded by a good PSU company (Antec (not their Basiq series) , Corsair, Seasonic, XFX, Silverstone (not any of their FSP made PSUs), Thermaltake (Only their Toughpower line), Enermax (not their LEPA line), Kingwin (Only their Lazer Gold and Lazer series)).
diesel_man said:
Ram-
Also what ram should I be looking at as far as ddr3?
Click to expand...
The RAM that Mr34727 recommended is a good choice.
diesel_man said:
And I was wondering what you thought about this psu- http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256065 $80
Click to expand...
I personally don't trust it. It's FSP made which is the reason why I don't trust it due to FSP's past PSU quality.

EDIT: Also, with shipping that Silverstone PSU is $90 shipped. That's not a good buy considering that a higher quality and significantly more powerful PSU is the same price:
$90 - Corsair 650TX V2 650W PSU
 
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I guess FSP is the true maker of the supply and SIlverStone slaps their name on it?
Ram-
Do I not need to worry about a heatspreader on the ram? Also, since i'm going to get a aftermarket cooler and my case is a mid/ATX their's the possibility the first couple ram slots would be in the way, it's possible to just use the Dimm slots 3 and 4 (just making sure)?
 
diesel_man said:
I guess FSP is the true maker of the supply and SIlverStone slaps their name on it?
Click to expand...
Pretty much. Other examples: IIRC, Delta makes the Basiq PSU that you linked to earlier and Seasonic makes Corsair's 650TX and 650TV2 PSUs. The Seasonic I recommended earlier is actually made by Seasonic themselves. Seasonic also makes the Antec Neo Eco 520C and 620C power supplies as well.
diesel_man said:
Ram-
Do I not need to worry about a heatspreader on the ram? Also, since i'm going to get a aftermarket cooler and my case is a mid/ATX their's the possibility the first couple ram slots would be in the way, it's possible to just use the Dimm slots 3 and 4 (just making sure)?
Click to expand...
No need to worry about. Yes.
 
Mr34727 said:
For $80, I would rather have this one-
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139005
Click to expand...

That PSU is actually too expensive for its older and lower-quality design: I do not include rebates at all in the price because many if not most of the rebate requests have been declined even though the owner followed every requirement to the letter - and then, there is a decent chance that the rebate check or card gets permanently lost in the mail. Not only that, but that PSU actually costs $95, not $80, shipped.
 
Thx guys, I guess I'll keep looking for psu's, and i'll probably go ahead and buy that g.skill ram and get that out of the way.
 
Okay i've done some looking at psu's and I really would prefer modular, as with a mid-tower case with a window, cable management would be far easier with less cables.
my build will probably look like this

CPU- AMD x4 955 BE
MOBO- M488td-evo
RAM- G-Skill 2x4 g 1333
GPU- ATI 6870
DRIVES-2

I assume i'll need 500-600 watts....probably 600 is safer. Budget for psu I don't want to exceed 100 and that's pushing it. I know you guys are going to have your favorites, but if you think I could get away with one of the lesser ones....

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341018 80$ before rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817121065 90$
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817152043 120$ before rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171036 100$ before rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171037 120$ before rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341017 75$ before rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371020 90$
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817553007 100$ before rebate
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...AlsoView-_-17-139-012_1_sCB-_-1__17-171-052__ 120$ before rebate
NOT MODULAR-
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371031 figured if not modular this is probably best to settle with. BUT i'd rather modular
 
just a hint, for your 6870, it doesn't use up that much power... 500W should be enough, even if you are going to CF them(of course, to leave some leeway, 600W is nice)

if you can go near a Frys/Microcenter, a i3 build isn't that bad($120 mobo+cpu combo). at least 50W lower consumption, and a known upgrade path to i5 2500k. (microcenter has AMD combos as well)
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4083/...core-i7-2600k-i5-2500k-core-i3-2100-tested/21

Microcenter i3 2100 +mobo = $120. looks like it might be dead, but you could check
http://www.overclock.net/online-deals/990360-b-m-microcenter-intel-core-i3.html
EDIT: was able to add a $99 i3 and H61M-P23 for $20. can't overclock and no usb3.0/sata6, but at $120, its better than the amd

Microcenter AMD combos:
http://www.microcenter.com/specials/promotions/AMDbundlePROMO.html

Note: Don't try to OC on the cheaper mobo boards. They die too easily b/c of a crappy CPU power phase.
 
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The OCZ ModXStream Pro 600W and 700W are not that good for the price
The Kingwin Lazer is not that good of a choice on account of its relatively low efficiency and performance. Not to mention that it only has 46A on the +12V rail while being a 660W PSU. So not a good sign IMO.
The Raidmax is of very low quality
The Coolermaster Silent Pro 600W and 700W are overpriced for the amount +12V amperage you're getting and the performance you're getting.
The Antec Truepower New is both over-priced and only a semi-modular PSU.
The Cougar is ok from a quality standpoint but HEC/Cougar aren't exactly known for good customer support
The Corsair 650HX is the best out the entire lot. It actually has more power where it counts (52A the +12V rail) than most of the PSUs listed so far and is of significantly higher quality. Not to mention that it's backed by a five year warranty from a company that's well known on this forum for excellent customer support. In fact, there's actually a Corsair rep that roams this forum from time to time so you may get a more prompt response.
 
Alright guys I need help picking my processor mobo combo today. I have 305$ dollars left in my budget to spend. I wanted AMD before but now i'm open to suggestions. The promo on the intel i-3 and i-5 processors ends tomorrow and I live close enough to where microcenter is an option. The promo takes 40$ off your mobo when paired with a i-3 2100 or i5-2500k.

1. I live about 35 minutes away from a Microcenter and my car sips gas so it's not bad, and 35 minutes is not that far of a drive in Houston.

2. Budget 305$,

3. I'm pretty sure i've narrowed it down to Intel's i3-2100 and i5-2500k. How long of life before needing to upgrade to i-5-2500k for gaming, if I buy i-3?
4. I want a crossfire board, since I think that would save me money by adding another 6870 in a couple months. Would an i-3 2100 bottleneck 2 6870's in crossfire? Is that a viable option ?Also, Would 8x 8x crossfire be a bottleneck?

5. the boards i've looked at are the
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0356578 biostar TP67B+
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0358080 msi P67A-c43
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0358172 msi p67A-G43
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0364085 GIGabyte
Z68X-UD3H-B3
 
Couldnt tell you how long before you need it, but I have seen several site showing that for gaming there is no appreciable difference. For Metro 2033 there was only about 5fps difference between the i3 and the i7.
 
I know that's the problem, picking what boards and processor, I want crossfire, but I could get i5-2500k and the biostar single pcie board for 260 AR. Or I could get the i5-2500k with crossfire on the msi g-43 for about 285 AR. If I went i3-2100 i'd just go ahead and buy one of the crossfire boards I linked above. I just need to find this out so I can go when the store opens up today,which is in an hour.
 
3) There's already a difference now between the Core i3 2100 and Core i5 2500K in games that scales well with multiple cores.
4) A little. IMO, no. No, x8/x8 Crossfire is not a bottleneck
5) GO for the MSI P67A-G43 or the Gigabyte mobo you listed.
 
Danny Bui said:
3) There's already a difference now between the Core i3 2100 and Core i5 2500K in games that scales well with multiple cores.
4) A little. IMO, no. No, x8/x8 Crossfire is not a bottleneck
5) GO for the MSI P67A-G43 or the Gigabyte mobo you listed.
Click to expand...


I haven't opened anything yet, but I went ahead and bought the MSI P67A-G43 boards, I didn't see anything better about the GiGabyte board. PIcked up the i3-2100 with it as well.
Overall including gas I saved 35$ by purchasing the mobo/proc from MicroCenter rather than Newegg. If I had gone with the GIGabyte board it would've been 65$ hehe oh well.

Finalized Build/upgrade-
i3-2100/MSI P67A-G43 mobo/cpu - combo 211$ + 12$ gas ....223$- 208$ AR
Sapphire ATI 6870 GPU- 188$- 168$ AR
Cougar sx700 PSU- 100$- 80$ AR
CRUCIAL 2x4 gb 1333 RaM- 45$
Total upgrade price-501$ AR

Questions
3. I was trying to keep it as cheap as possible, Microcenter had an excellent deal for the i5-2500k which is why I considered. Do you think i'll be alright with games for at least a 1-2 yrs. If at least one I can upgrade to the 2500k next summer.
4. So an i3-2100 won't bottleneck two 6870's? Because my next upgrade would be to add another 6870. Crossfire just seemed like the best choice for mobo given my options, especially seeing as one 6970 can be had for no less than 320 AR, and in a couple months when the 7000 series drops i'm sure I can nab another 6870 for around 130$.
5. I went with the MSI G43

My goal was to upgrade the core of my pc to get good gaming performance on a budget, and to do it while leaving room for future expansion and upgrading. Considering what AMD had to offer, I would have ended up with a non upgradable board since MC specials did not include am3+ boards, so that wasn't an option.
The 2 cheapest AMD offerings from Newegg -
AMD 955 BE-110$
with GIGABYTE GA-990XA-UD3 AM3+ AMD 990X / totat 260$ .....
with ASRock 970 EXTREME4 AM3+ AMD 970 / total 222$ AR
Given what I had to choose from if I went with the GiG board and 955 BE I might as well have picked up the i5-2500k
And the ASROCK board is similiar in price, but from what i've been led to believe and what i've seen in most benchmarks i'd have to oc my BE to 4.0 ghz and it would still only edge out the i3-2100 in games.


All things considered I think I made the right decisions and thought everything through, and even though maybe the 955 BE oced could edge out the i3-2100 I have an upgrade path towards i5, and the only thing that could happen is Bulldozer is a boss and the i5 lowers in price :). Thx Danny Bui for all the help and everybody else, only thing I really need reassured is if the i3-2100 will bottleneck 2 6870's....sorry for long read lol
 
Thanks for those benches, that reassured me that crossfire should be fine. -Danny I think the i3 will hold up fine for me, ill just add another card and crossfire in a couple months, and eventually go i5. From what I've read I think it was a better choice and upgrade path than the 955 BE.
 
Well I had it all put together, and I got home from work today to transfer over files to an external hd and reformat the pc on win 7 64bit. As I was in the setup for it I heard a loud pop and a strong odor of burnt electronics......the cougar psu blew up......I hooked up my hx520 and the mobo/fans and everything turn on so that's a good sign. What plan of action do I take with the cougar psu? Do I contact Cougar or do I ask Newegg for an RMA?
 
Newegg first and then Cougar if Newegg doesn't help.
 
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