How is keyboard and mouse better vs. controller?

Analogue sticks have a limited turn speed so your speed and accuracy are inherently much worse. it takes time to get used to both control systems but ultimately the mouse and keyboard combination is better for almost everything.

Watching console players trying to play FPS games on analogue sticks is both hilarious and infuriating at exactly the same time.
 
ZodaEX said:
In a game of Street Fighter 4, if I had a 360 pad, and you were using a keyboard there's no way you'd ever stand a chance. The reason you did well on that youtube video is so obvious to me. That's Marvel VS. Capcom. It's a button masher fighting game. I can beat that game so easy just randomly mashing the pad. It's a bad example of a fighting game. You should try SVC: Chaos and Capcom VS. SNK. Those game actually require a tangible about of skill, and you can't just pull off every special move by accident.
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Than you should go play people in SFA3 etc, online through GGPO. There are keyboard warriors out there that can play just as good as any other on pad or stick.
 
I've seen some pretty sick console fps players, it's all about getting used to the controls really.
 
i2abid said:
I've seen some pretty sick console fps players, it's all about getting used to the controls really.
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Yeah but try comparing the aim of the best CSS players to the best Halo players.

You can't tell me anyone on a console shoots anything like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQJS37Vtzaw

or, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otbKZkXEiUE

The precision of a mouse > controllers by far. I used to have a 3.16 kpd on my cod4 account for 360 but I still thought my aim was crap, it was just because everyone else sucked that I sucked less. Almost every top CSS gamer has a bigass mousepad that they use and a lower sensitivity than the average gamer. To do a 270 spin, I have to move my mouse across my entire QCK+.
 
different strokes for different folks

I know people that are deadly accurate with a controller and likewise with a keyboard and mouse (and for that matter, I know people that cannot hit the broadside of a barn with either control setup). To say that one is better than the other is completely subjective.

just because one person sucks with a keyboard/mouse (or controller) doesn't mean that everyone does :)
 
i always put it like this to my friends

how hard is it to move your mouse to a link on a web page with a mouse?

how hard is it to do that same task with a analog stick?

could you do it faster with a stick or a mouse?
 
This ^^^

More responsive and precise movements.


A Console player would have no chance against a adept Counterstrike player or Quake Player for that matter.
 
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illybang said:
as stated by ZodaEX, definitely depends on the types of games you are playing.

platformers, fighting games, racing simulations, arcade style games, and even puzzle games, i gotta say that console controllers are the way to go.

HOWEVER, FPS/Shooters have got to be played on keyboard and mouse.

my personal opinions of course.
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A pc with a usb controller has you covered on both fronts.:p
 
For FPS and RTS mouse+kb all the way.

For 3rd person action adventure games that were ported from consoles, a controller usually works better, hence why I purchased a 360 controller even though I dont own a 360 ;)
 
ZodaEX said:
Try reading the post I quoted again. I was responding to the comment: "Any genres are fine on either system" Fighting games are a genre are they not? By saying the term "any genre" that includes fighting games!
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I did read it, and you quoted the post ending with FPS and than saying BS, so based on your original quote, you made it appears you were calling BS to FPS games, not fighting games.
 
Mouse/ Keyboard combo is quicker in FPS games. 360 controller is much preferred in Racing games due to the analog stick and pressure sensitive trigger buttons. Just depends on the game really.
 
edifyingkarma said:
:confused:

/facepalm
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Are you or your fanboi buddy going to say something else? KB/M controls are more unrealistic, period. That's one of the many facts between the two. No one has or can dispute that. Therefore, if you want more realistic controls, play with a gamepad.
 
Okay, i don't bind any special super keys for unrealistic combos/..

but your telling me that .. aiming a gun with your thumb, is somehow more realistic then aiming a gun with your entire hand (mouse)?

Controllers give you a delayed control for certain games, i can play any game on PC, except fighting games, those the controller is great, but even then an arcade stick can beat out a controller, again cause you use your entire hand to do motions vs just a single finger.
 
refraxion said:
Than you should go play people in SFA3 etc, online through GGPO. There are keyboard warriors out there that can play just as good as any other on pad or stick.
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Ok i'll give it a try, sounds like a lot of fun.
 
Dreaz said:
Therefore, if you want more realistic controls, play with a gamepad.
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And if you prefer a dramatically less painful and less frustrating gaming experience, choose KB/M.

I genuinely don't understand what role "realism" serves. My gaming experience is rarely defined by the degree of "realism". Strict simulators are the obvious exception.
 
Yea, it seems odd to be talking about how controllers are more realistic. Except that 99% of all console games are so ridiculously unrealistic anyways it does matter (well 99% of ALL games).

So I can play with something that's more accurate and doesn't have auto aim, or I can use something with autoaim and some joysticks. What a hard decision.
Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy quite a few games with controller because some games just don't work with mouse and keyboard.
 
Dreaz said:
Are you or your fanboi buddy going to say something else? KB/M controls are more unrealistic, period. That's one of the many facts between the two. No one has or can dispute that. Therefore, if you want more realistic controls, play with a gamepad.
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You're right, it is more realistic to drive a car with a gamepad. :rolleyes:

Also the debate was never about realism, so go troll elsewhere.
 
Amazing how people can defend a gamepad over KB/M on anything other than sidescrollers/classic rpgs.
 
Dreaz said:
Therefore, if you want more realistic controls, play with a gamepad.
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You're not really making any damn sense here, I would quit while you're ahead. I don't get how a kb/m help you move faster in a game than you could in "reality" with a controller, and I don't think anyone else here does either. My controller has just as many buttons on it as I normally map in for gaming with a kb/m.

I don't think either one is superior to the other, they're just suited to different tasks. I can think of a few games like Grand Theft Auto and Mirrors Edge, where I flat out couldn't stand using a KB/M to play them. The sidescroll levels in Batman were retarded with kb/m so I switched to the controller for those. Then there are the racing games like Grid, Dirt, NFS...they're horrid on a KB/M, and only mildly better on a controller compared to a good wheel setup.

Playing something like HL, Stalker, L4D, Crysis, etc...would all suck hardcore on a controller. Heck, the day MS or Sony release a lapboard/mouse that can be used in-game, I'll be first in line.

My personal opinion, is anyone who says one or the other is superior in all circumstances, isn't being honest.
 
tricky0502 said:
i always put it like this to my friends

how hard is it to move your mouse to a link on a web page with a mouse?

how hard is it to do that same task with a analog stick?

could you do it faster with a stick or a mouse?
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The only legit way to look at it in my opinion when talking about FPS and RTS. When your talking about games that require perfect accuracy then the kbm/mouse is the perfect solution.

If Halo was cross compatible for PC and 360 and you had the top teams from both systems compete (taking out all variables like lag and what not) the console players would get slaughtered. That basically sums it up.

On any other games I would probably play with a controller though.
 
I'm perfectly content playing third person games on the PC. It tends to be that the bad ones (I'm looking at you, AC2) are poorly done console ports where the mouse acceleration is enormous and nothing can be done about it. AC1 and Arkham Asylum both had good mouse control of the camera which more than makes up for the fact that you can only move in four directions with WASD. I also vastly prefer being able to easily control the camera while sprinting in these games. You have to hold down X (PS3) to sprint in these games, which precludes you from easily using the right thumbstick to look around while running. Not so in the PC versions.
 
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Whenever I have someone tell me a controller is better for FPS, I ask them if it would be easier to click icons on a computer with a mouse or a joystick?
 
Krenum said:
A Console player would have no chance against a adept Counterstrike player or Quake Player for that matter.
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This is exactly why we dont see cross platform FPS games, it's not because of any of the lame reasons developers quote like trying to keep the games patched in sync, that stuff is manageable, it's because literally no console gamer would be able ot play online and enjoy it, they'd get completely rolled.
 
Oldie said:
Playing something like HL, Stalker, L4D, Crysis, etc...would all suck hardcore on a controller.
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Truer words were never spoken. Can you imagine playing STALKER: SoC with a controller (and I don't mean with auto aiming,talk about unrealistic)? With that game,it's headshots or die.
 
While i was looking up Shadowrun, i came across this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBzcxisbbco

I thought when they said autoaim, they were referring to the bullets changing direction mid flight towards the enemy. I've seen this on halo. I actually aim it away to get the bullet around obstacles (especially the shields)

I didn't know the game also automatically turns you!

Krenum said:
This ^^^

More responsive and precise movements.


A Console player would have no chance against a adept Counterstrike player or Quake Player for that matter.
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You know what would rock? A control pad on your left and a light gun on your right. That's the only way you can get a controller to keep up with a KB/M.
 
Sly said:
You know what would rock? A control pad on your left and a light gun on your right. That's the only way you can get a controller to keep up with a KB/M.
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I think a Nunchuk would be the ideal left-hand controller for a mouse. Full motion controls, too. Tilt to lean, flick to jump, hold a trigger and flick forward to throw a grenade, etc.
 
ihira said:
This whole posts reeks of misinformation and scrubbyness but I must ask, what keys do you use for playing fighting games?
wasd for directions? Or arrow keys?

I don't doubt its possible to play fighting games on a KB but the nature of fighting games based on 8 direction input must be akward / difficult to manage on 4 keys. Even you said so, and this *does* matter to play properly.
Unless you can execute 360s, qcfqcf with KB flawlessly...and that still doesn't matter because its not an advantage over controller/arcade stick.
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Err... dude, i've opened up the arcade sticks and they only have FOUR switches. There's no switch for any of the diagonals (BTW, those things are TOUGH, you can throw them at the wall stick first, and they'll still work perfectly!). They use the same four keys as the controller and keyboard.

As for the layout. Keys are QWE for the punches, ASD for the kicks, R for all three punches, F for all three kicks. Arrow keys (Not the numpad) are for movement. Attack keys on my left, movement keys on my right.

I'm not familiar with terminologies but if by QCFQCF you mean, Back, DownBack, Down, DownFront, Front, Back, DownBack, Down, DownFront, Front. That's the easiest to do on the keyboard. You know the way you tap four fingers on the table when you're bored? Do that twice, and you've got your QCFQCF. Do that REALLY fast (as in almost simultaneously) and it'll still register. On the controller you still have to slide your thumb back, and on the arcade stick, you have to move your entire hand back and overcome inertia. Front Down Front, and Front Back Front are faster on the keyboard since your fingers never leave the keys. The Up/Down handicap may be a hindrance on a really fast 360, but it won't stop you from doing a super jump and a midair helicopter kick on the way up.

If the arrowkeys were indeed awkward, then i shouldn't be able to do the continious midair dashes in the video i posted ;) Or if you'd notice when i was fighting zangief and the hulk, it was sufficiently fast enough that you can do a kick, land, jump and kick him on the way up, and it will still be counted as part of the combo ;)

Curiously tho, where do you find the 360 an advantage? I'm not a hardcore player so i'm not intimately familiar with all the characters.
 
kumquat said:
I think a Nunchuk would be the ideal left-hand controller for a mouse. Full motion controls, too. Tilt to lean, flick to jump, hold a trigger and flick forward to throw a grenade, etc.
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The nunchuck was the first controller i've seen that would make Command & Conquer on the console actually playable. A friend of mine has a 40" LCD in his living room attached to a Wii and i can totally imagine him playing command and conquer on that thing.

Did they actually release a game on the wii that does what i described? :confused:
 
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I gotta throw in my $.02 on Dreaz' trolling as well (nothing personal, bro)... using mouse-look literally simulates the movement of your eyes - if you have it set up correctly, it becomes an extension of your mind, and you are only limited by how fast you can see and mentally react to a situation. So any game that requires looking and aiming is going to be played better with a mouse. I've fired plenty of real firearms, and I know that marksmanship is largely dependant on being able to see your target properly, plus a lot of muscle memory functions that really can't be simulated with kb or controller buttons, so I'm not going to try and argue on those lines. I don't personally have a built-in delay on the movement of my eyes or hands, so you're not going to convince me that thumb-sticks are a more realistic simulation of any functions related to shooting.

IMO, analog control-sticks are only useful in games where a built-in delay is actually desirable - ie, driving games. A car steering wheel, and most other vehicle controls, don't react at the speed of my mind's will to move them, they react at the speed of the mechanical function of the vehicle, so controls that turn the vehicle too quickly are very hard to use properly. Thumb-sticks are better for driving vehicles, but I generally prefer being able to look to being able to drive, so I still like my mouse in games like GTA... probably not quite optimal, but oh well.

And of course, there are button-mashing games like fighters where all you need is a few buttons - there's no use at all for a mouse in those, so it just comes down to what controller has the best ergonomics and the buttons that are most fun to push - unless you have a killer keyboard that you're extremely comfortable with, a gamepad wins pretty easily.
 
Oldie said:
Playing something like HL, Stalker, L4D, Crysis, etc...would all suck hardcore on a controller. Heck, the day MS or Sony release a lapboard/mouse that can be used in-game, I'll be first in line.
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Ps2 and 3 both have usb ports. Unreal tournament allowed you to use a keyboard mouse in the ports (you could use it as a third player if you wanted) as a controller, same as PC. But its unreal tournament. Still theres nothing stopping other people doing it (LBP2 is keyboard and mouse!). Quake II on the PS had mouse support (left hand d pad, right hand mouse) so I think Quake III was too.

There is always this thing...

But the biggest problem with a keyboard and mouse on a console, is that your not at a desk. So you end up using the mouse on your leg (its what I do). Computer players sit at desks, console players sit on a sofa. Unless you have a little mouse desk...Maybe thats a buisness for some crazy person. But anyway, the horse controller on those arcade games isn't the most practical but it fits its situation.

Some PC games have auto aim...Just cause, Bioshock, HALF LIFE 2. And with most games you can turn it off, or it turns itself off on difficult settings. Killzone 2 doesn't even have a crosshair or auto aim on whatever the hardest setting is called.
 
Mouse/KB being better than a controller for FPS games isn't an opinion; it's a simple fact.

Hypothetically, (since this can't actually happen) if you put the worldwide "best controller FPS player" up against the worldwide "best Mouse/KB FPS player" in the same game that they both played for 5 years, removed all other variables, and told them to go at it?

The controller player would get owned. Hard. Repeatedly. The only remaining topic up for debate in this scenario is just how completely unbalanced the ratio would be. 3 to 1? 5 to 1? 10 to 1?

There is simply no compensating for the fact that on a controller your movements are mapped to a constant "turn speed" as opposed to a direct translation of your movements. Aiming with a controller analog stick is closely related to aiming with your keyboard's arrow keys back in 1994.

Meanwhile, a Mouse has the ability to let you move as fast or as slowly as you want, instantly, without losing any precision.

It's simply not debatable. The only people on the controller side are die hard console kids who've never played a PC FPS with a mouse. They refuse to entertain the notion of trying it either. They believe that they're great FPS players because they own other people on XBox live and that their opinion is therefor valid... but you can dominate your high school football league too and it certainly doesn't mean you stand a chance playing pro football. You may still "prefer" to play on gamepad, but the question of which is "better" isn't even a question.

I used to have this discussion in college.
 
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PrincessFrosty said:
This is exactly why we dont see cross platform FPS games, it's not because of any of the lame reasons developers quote like trying to keep the games patched in sync, that stuff is manageable, it's because literally no console gamer would be able ot play online and enjoy it, they'd get completely rolled.
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There were 2 cross-platform FPS: Halo2 & Shadowrun.

Shadowrun had auto-aim for console players and it was disabled for the PC players. This was documented by the devs before they were "re-assigned/laid off" by MS soon after the game's release.

I'm not sure if the auto-aim "feature" was the same for Halo2 when it came to PC vs Console users.
 
tuksonrider said:
Shadowrun had auto-aim for console players and it was disabled for the PC players.
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They also reduced the accuracy temporarily when PC users would turn real fast with their mouse, since it wasn't possible to do the same on a controller. Also, I remember reading an article or seeing a video of a tournament that was pitting the top console players vs the top PC players of some FPS, but I don't remember which, I WANT to say Halo, but I'm not positive if that was it. Needless to say the console gamers got rolled as expected.

Going to be more specific than my last post, here's something most people could agree on, not including wheels / arcade sticks:


Controller:
Racing games
Sidescrollers
Fighting games
Classic RPG's (like Final Fantasy style)

Keyboard / Mouse
FPS
RTS
MMORPG
 
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tuksonrider said:
There were 2 cross-platform FPS: Halo2 & Shadowrun.

Shadowrun had auto-aim for console players and it was disabled for the PC players. This was documented by the devs before they were "re-assigned/laid off" by MS soon after the game's release.

I'm not sure if the auto-aim "feature" was the same for Halo2 when it came to PC vs Console users.
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Also Q3 for the dreamcast.
 
Since this is a largely PC audience you will see a lot more in the KBM than the controller. And I am no exception, KBM hands down.

Dreaz said:
KB/M really gives you the most unrealistic play out of the two. Aiming happens faster than anyone can move in real life, and keybinding allows for some spider-hand sorcery that again makes it seem like your character lives outside the realm of physics.

Gamepads don't give the flighty sense that KB/M gives, and you're limited by the tools you have which forces you to work with and around them. KB/M can literal be pushed to superhuman speeds. Also gamepads give more feedback to the user than KB/M.

So yeah, your friend is right.
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Dreaz said:
Are you or your fanboi buddy going to say something else? KB/M controls are more unrealistic, period. That's one of the many facts between the two. No one has or can dispute that. Therefore, if you want more realistic controls, play with a gamepad.
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So your logic is that the mouse and keyboard being the fastest and most efficient, makes it the worst? Also if I may ask, if you're so concerned with realism on your console games, what games are you playing? Call of Duty? :confused:
 
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