Toshiba Ends Format War

I can understand the argument that you physically can bring a DVR/recorder box to watch the shows at a friends house.....but how practical is this? I mean, who's going to unhook their PVR and bring it to a friends because they want to watch a show there? It's even more complicated if you have it wired into a sound system, wall mounted plasma, etc....

The portability argument of PVR/recorder boxes is ridiculous.
 
As well, if you hook up the PVR at a new location, it will need to download its boot image or startup software, which it likely won't be able to do unless your friend has the exact same service....even then, unlikely.
 
I don't really understand why people are upset about Sony being big on $$$. Of course they are, every big business is. Toshiba was in it for the money as well. They just didn't happen to get the backing of the movie industry. It could be because Sony is huge in the movie industry. Sony is huge, it has a lot of weight behind it. What did Toshiba have for it besides the format? It makes perfect logical sense why, even if HD-DVD was the better format, Bluray still won. Sony has a lot more clout, a lot more power and a lot more influence. The only way Toshiba could have one is if it wooed the movie industry to it's side, which it failed to do. Once the movie industry started to go Blurary only, Toshiba realized they lost. End of story. No pay-offs, no conspiracy theory.

As for people who hate Sony. I hate Sony as well. But, you got to respect (from a business standpoint) what they do. They try to lock people into their own formats. It's almost what Apple does to a certain extent. Apple products work with Apple products and generally have limited access to other products. Think if iTunes with a Zune or an iPod with Rhapsody. Sony makes you buy UMD's and makes you guy Bluray because they're trying to lock you into a particular format, the Sony format.
 
Oh well, at least there will be really cheap HD-DVDs pretty soon. I've owned the PS3 and 360 HD-DVD attachment ever since they were released but I generally prefer HD-DVD due to their slightly lower prices and better extra features (picture-in-picture modes, etc). Hopefully Blu Ray players will come down in price significantly. Now that they are the only HD game in town the real fight has begun: converting people who only buy DVDs. With expensive players that will be difficult.

I was afraid that with HD-DVD out of the picture that there would be no motivation to drop the price on BR players as fast as they had before, but hopefully the competition from DVD will drive them to continue doing that.
 
EQTakeOffense said:
As for people who hate Sony. I hate Sony as well. But, you got to respect (from a business standpoint) what they do. They try to lock people into their own formats. It's almost what Apple does to a certain extent. Apple products work with Apple products and generally have limited access to other products. Think if iTunes with a Zune or an iPod with Rhapsody. Sony makes you buy UMD's and makes you guy Bluray because they're trying to lock you into a particular format, the Sony format.
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The Zune and iPod both use standard formats like mp3 and AAC. Until recently Sony required that you convert your existing library to ATRAC. Apple uses open standards like h.264 and AAC while Microsoft's WM formats are widely supported. This is very different from Sony's extremely proprietary formats. Yes, companies try to keep customers within their own product families as much as possible, but what Sony does goes far beyond what Apple or Microsoft do right now.
 
Serpico said:
The Zune and iPod both use standard formats like mp3 and AAC. Until recently Sony required that you convert your existing library to ATRAC. Apple uses open standards like h.264 and AAC while Microsoft's WM formats are widely supported. This is very different from Sony's extremely proprietary formats. Yes, companies try to keep customers within their own product families as much as possible, but what Sony does goes far beyond what Apple or Microsoft do right now.
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...You can replace your battery in your Sony product....

That is all I am saying :p
 
I think in another year, we will all be using Blu-ray and fighting over how Microsofts version is better than the one in the PS3 :p haha

ps: damn Steve 38 years, thats same [H] dedication :p
 
Ockie said:
Now you are talking about replaying offline recorded video. Nice. Keep grabbing the straws.
*snip* blah blah blah I'm smarter than you blah blah blah can't think of anything better than 'i know you are but what am i' replies blah blah blah *snip*
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Nope, I have in fact been talking about this all along. I went back through to make sure and nowhere did I talk only about the TV service and nothing about digital downloads. You guys have been going off on a (tunnel vision) tangent talking about the TV service. The title of this thread is Toshiba dropping out - nothing about the FUD that snowbunny is trying to start. A digital download doesn't necessarily mean it's in real-time. :rolleyes:

If you are going to talk about TV service, this is a whole different ball of wax. This was originally talking about total bandwidth, which again has nothing to do with physical media... :rolleyes:

Zizzer said:
I can understand the argument that you physically can bring a DVR/recorder box to watch the shows at a friends house.....but how practical is this? I mean, who's going to unhook their PVR and bring it to a friends because they want to watch a show there? It's even more complicated if you have it wired into a sound system, wall mounted plasma, etc....

The portability argument of PVR/recorder boxes is ridiculous.
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I do take my DVR box on occasion, and may be ridiculous to you but not to me. A power cable and a HDMI cable. Wow, that is so hard. :) And if they don't have HDMI? It has optical out, rca audio out, composite out, component out, svideo out, and coax out. I guess if it's too hard to take your console game system to somebody else's house then you won't be doing this either. Let alone a laptop.

How ridiculous? You mean that it's smaller than a console game system? It's near the size of a laptop, and since when was a laptop not portable in the last 10 years? You sound like one of the people who cry that they need a wheel cart for their 2lb laptop. lol. I'm surprised you have the strength to push the keys down on your keyboard. There must be somebody typing this for you.

Zizzer said:
As well, if you hook up the PVR at a new location, it will need to download its boot image or startup software, which it likely won't be able to do unless your friend has the exact same service....even then, unlikely.
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boot image? startup software? it's all internal and doesn't need to be online. where did this come from? Is it a fact you found? do you even have a U-Verse box to state this as fact? "likely" "unlikely" no comment :rolleyes: Like I said before, I can take it anywhere and watch the recordings on any TV.

Don't try and make arguments if you don't know how the U-Verse DVR works or how easy it is to move.

Is everybody still trying to argue that people don't have hi-bandwidth connections (50mb+ according to snowbunny's requirements) anywhere? You know Japan has 100/100 FIOS? And soon (less than "10+ years") it will be here in the US. http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/fat-pipe...anhattan-japan+like-uber+bandwidth-321154.php

So I'm going to forget snowbunny even made a post and drop the whole conversation because it's going nowhere. Wish I could say I've learned something useful today. I have better things to do now. Thanks for an amusing day. :D
 
Well, Ockie you mis-understood Shagnwagn from the start. From the start he was talking about playing offline flicks and you lost sight of that in the anxiousness of your rebuttal. I do however, generally agree with Ockie on the overall points yous were discussing, it is a pain to carry over your setop box, unless you plan on watching like 4 movies or something.
 
I'm actually working in a call center, right now, taking calls from Toshiba customers about this whole issue.
Fun stuff. :)
 
I own both.

55ish HD DVD titles (several imports only available in the US on BluDisc)
2 BluRay titles

360 addon and PS3 80GB
 
ShagnWagn said:
How ridiculous? You mean that it's smaller than a console game system? It's near the size of a laptop, and since when was a laptop not portable in the last 10 years? You sound like one of the people who cry that they need a wheel cart for their 2lb laptop. lol. I'm surprised you have the strength to push the keys down on your keyboard. There must be somebody typing this for you.
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I like the way my comment turned into a personal attack on me, really shows what sort of character you have.

I'm merely stating the obvious, that most people are likely to rent a blu-ray than disconnect their PVR and bring it to a friends house. I work in tech support for an IPTV telecommunications service, and 90% of the people who call in don't understand what a RCA or HDMI cable is and would never think about disconnecting their box to bring to a friends house.

You take for granted that you have knowledge of the equipment and processes we're discussing. I'm taking the view of the general public who is not going to be unhooking their equipment every time they want to watch a program at a friends house.
 
1: BluRay will be dead soon too, replaced by HD downloads FUD:

Reality: this is not happening anytime soon. So far you can get a rental download that they Call HD, but in reality is no better DVD quality. Call your ISP and ask when you are getting fiber optics runto your house for some real high speed. Now in some future world (10years+ for any but a small minority) where I have 50Mb+/s bandwidth and I can finally think about HD downloads for real. I might do rentals this way, but I still wouldn't buy content this way. Think about what you get with downloads as far as extras. Think about how easy it is to take your download to a friends house and watch it (impossible). Downloads are much more restrictive than any physical format.
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Internet Speeds right now are gaining into the 12Mbit - 15Mbit with Fiber becoming a reality for many folks. Even on a 7Mbit connection, HD movies are very doable. Services like Apple's iTunes is already making big strides. A more modern approach to this is for the Movie Studios to let you download, make backup's and play the content on any device you wish as long as you aren't breaking the law and within your rights to view the movie.

2: "its not profile whatever compatible and is now a fancy paper weight": The incompatible profile FUD.

Reality: All profiles play all movies. This is pure nonsense FUD. Let's be crystal clear what each profile gives you:

1.0: All Movies and all standard extras similar to DVD.
1.1: (AKA Final standard profile) Adds extras with Picture in Picture. I would probably buy a 1.1 at this point, but I wouldn't upgrade if I had a 1.0.
2.0: (Optional profile BTW) Add internet connectivity for downloading lame crap. How many people want to connect their player to the internet. I know I don't. I really don't want this feature and will never use it.
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What this tells me is that the profile is still not complete. Is Sony going to introduce a 3.0 Profile that has more features? Also, you are only looking at this from your Point of View and not others. Such as, what if those people want to use the Internet functionality, or what if the Movie Studio puts content on the disc that can only be accessed by the disc when it goes out to a website.

3: Now we will face high prices forever with no competition FUD.

Reality: You mean like with CD players/DVD? Someone must be out of touch to state this. CD and DVD machines were both over $500 when they came out. I paid $500 for a VCR after the format war and I guess prices must have stayed there since. I paid $300 for my first CD player. I also remember movies for $70 on VHS.

The truth is Blu Ray is following the normal downward price cure for consumer electronics and there is plenty of competition with multiple manufacturers. Toshiba players where cheaper only because they were selling at a loss trying to fight alone in a losing batle against the rest of the CE industry which is backing Bluray. There is plenty of competition to build BD players and prices are falling at standard CE rates, which is quite fast.
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Not really, because a lot of those free movie deals will now go away and you'll be left to spend $300 to $400 on a player. Remember, that the PS3 is out at $400 and anything that goes below that is cutting into sales of the PS3 which is what Sony doesn't want. Also with there only being one version of a film, they can charge what they want for it. Hope you enjoyed your $24 movies because they will jack those up to 34-40 with what I call the HD Tax, that you wouldn't get the full movie experiance without paying those types of prices.

4: Upscaled DVD is all I need it looks great FUD.

Reality: This one is really funny coming from HD-DVD fans. Maybe this is why their format failed, after buying the players they all decided DVD was all they stopped buying HD-DVD disks. If you actually compared the two you would know the difference is extremely blatant.
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The only thing I would agree with is the Upscaling part. As for the rest, most of the folks that purchased HD-DVD players bought them so they watch ether or. If they had the movie, great, it would work nicely as an upscaler that would give them a better picture than a standard DVD player would have.

5: The bluray associationg paid off/bribed Warner (or netflix, walmart etc...) otherwise HD-DVD would have won FUD.

Reality: There is Zero evidence that Warner or other recent movers was paid anything, just one HD-DVD fan blog started this rumor. If you look at the stats Bluray was outselling everywhere and something missed in all the uproar was that in the weeks before CES and Warner announce, HD DVD was losing on sales of standalone players. It's one and only previous bright spot. No the end was near before Warner accellerated the end game and sided with the obvious winner. You don't need to pay someone to side with the winner.
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It wasn't cash but most likely licensing and other benefits that Sony gave to Warner to side with them.

6: I won't buy Bluray because it is a Sony product, and Sony destroys all life as we know it (insert random Sony hater line here)....

Reality. Bluray is not Sony, Sony does not control Bluray and they could dissapear tomorrow and Bluray would continue. But if you want to indulge your Sony hatred, don't stop there. Get rid of CD player, your DVD player, anything with a s/pdif (sony/philips) digital interface for starters, because they all had just as much/more Sony involvement. Remember PS/2 with DVD pushing the DVD standard. Sony pushes new standards. It is what they do, it doesn't meant they own the standard.

There are 18 companies listed in the Bluray patent pool at MPEG LA. The license is non-discriminatory and anyone can build a player with equal terms. If you want to avoid all product sony touched, by all means pout in the corner with your 8 track.
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Blu-ray was indeed developed by Sony and they do control it. The association is really just a membership that you can get for paying a yearly fee so you can vote on things, get products rolling and get inside information on the developement of Blu-ray. Sony controls this format the same like they did with the Mini-disc, UMD and Betamax. If Sony were to disappear, the Blu-ray format would disappear pretty quickly.

As for your non-sense with the other formats, here is the history behind them.

CD - Joint Developement by Phillips and Sony with Phillips doing the majority of the developement.

DVD - Sony and Phillips had developed the MultiMedia Compact Disc and Toshiba had developed the Super Density Disc which had more backers. Sony and Phillips abandoned the MMCD and went along with the Super Density Disc on one the condition that the Modulation that the disc is encoded with be changed to something that would more scratch and finger print proof which was agreed upon.

Oh and if you didn't think Sony made an 8 Track player, think again.
http://houston.craigslist.org/ele/578541398.html
 
This is very different from Sony's extremely proprietary formats. Yes, companies try to keep customers within their own product families as much as possible, but what Sony does goes far beyond what Apple or Microsoft do right now.
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I completely agree with you. Although, I am quite tempted to buy a PS3 now.
 
So what about HD porn? I thought I read an article late last year that said that sony doesn't support pornography and we wouldn't have any blue ray porn.
 
Also with there only being one version of a film, they can charge what they want for it. Hope you enjoyed your $24 movies because they will jack those up to 34-40 with what I call the HD Tax, that you wouldn't get the full movie experiance without paying those types of prices.
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I don't really understand that logic.
 
Movies that cost $24 will go up in price. They'll re-release them to take advantage of having no competition. This new price will be $34-40 depending on the movie. I call the Markup the HD-Tax, No HD-DVD means they can do what they want now instead of having to compete.
 
soulman901 said:
Movies that cost $24 will go up in price. They'll re-release them to take advantage of having no competition. This new price will be $34-40 depending on the movie. I call the Markup the HD-Tax, No HD-DVD means they can do what they want now instead of having to compete.
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Where are you people getting this information, and have none of you taken a basic economics or business class ever?
 
Becuase I can go to the store anytime look at what Sony sells their crap for and see what other people sell their crap for. Sony always has a Markup of about 10-30% for practically the same device.

Also on a quick note, Sony and Toshisba are 1:1 right now Victory wise.
Toshisba won the DVD battle and Sony won the High Definition battle. What will the next format fight be?
 
soulman901 said:
Becuase I can go to the store anytime look at what Sony sells their crap for and see what other people sell their crap for. Sony always has a Markup of about 10-30% for practically the same device.

Also on a quick note, Sony and Toshisba are 1:1 right now Victory wise.
Toshisba won the DVD battle and Sony won the High Definition battle. What will the next format fight be?
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Blu-ray =/= Sony, will people please learn this. Yes, Sony put a lot of money into this format, but they are not the only ones who gain or lose from this. Sony also does not set 100% of the prices, studios sell the media at what it cost them to produce it, ship, etc, plus profit. On the players, it is up to each company who is investing into Blu-ray technology to set the price of their player.

If Sony's Blu-ray is to high price then buy another brand.
 
soulman901 said:
Becuase I can go to the store anytime look at what Sony sells their crap for and see what other people sell their crap for. Sony always has a Markup of about 10-30% for practically the same device.

Also on a quick note, Sony and Toshisba are 1:1 right now Victory wise.
Toshisba won the DVD battle and Sony won the High Definition battle. What will the next format fight be?
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Sony is one studio. You are not buying movies from Sony Electronics. Warner and all the other studios decide what their MSRP is. The Blu-Ray association is not one big happy family. They are competing companies. Does anyone stop to think for a second before posting? Seriously?

Toshiba was HD DVD (with a little MS sprinkled in). BDA is much bigger than Sony. As for Toshiba and Sony being 1:1. Well you must have forgotten about CD. That was Sony Phillips. And Sony willingly dropped their version of DVD back then, when faced with the bigger backing of Toshiba. Toshiba had a chance to do the same with Blu-Ray, but didn't.

You guys hate on Sony, but they are very innovative. I am sensitive to price even though I make enough money to buy Sony I don't. I'd rather save that money and get another toy for my room. However, I'm not dumb enough to think their products are sometimes better, and their hardware is top notch. If you tihnk anyone makes a better LCD you are fooling yourself to make yourself feel better for the fact you can't/won't afford their LCD and price premium.
 
soulman901 said:
Movies that cost $24 will go up in price. They'll re-release them to take advantage of having no competition. This new price will be $34-40 depending on the movie. I call the Markup the HD-Tax, No HD-DVD means they can do what they want now instead of having to compete.
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That makes no sense. Movies don't compete based on what media they're on. By your logic, DVD's should cost twice as much as they do now. Movies compete on, well, the quality of the movie. Think about those $1 DVD's in the bargin bin at the dollar store, they're on the same media as those $15 movies at Target. If movies competed on what format they were printed on, then that would not happen.

So again, I don't understand your logic.
 
EQTakeOffense said:
That makes no sense. Movies don't compete based on what media they're on. By your logic, DVD's should cost twice as much as they do now. Movies compete on, well, the quality of the movie. Think about those $1 DVD's in the bargin bin at the dollar store, they're on the same media as those $15 movies at Target. If movies competed on what format they were printed on, then that would not happen.

So again, I don't understand your logic.
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No, because DVD burners are now mainstream and because they were fighting with VHS for 3x the time blu-ray and hd-dvd are.
 
deeznuts said:
You guys hate on Sony, but they are very innovative. I am sensitive to price even though I make enough money to buy Sony I don't. I'd rather save that money and get another toy for my room. However, I'm not dumb enough to think their products are sometimes better, and their hardware is top notch. If you think anyone makes a better LCD you are fooling yourself to make yourself feel better for the fact you can't/won't afford their LCD and price premium.
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Now you're sounding a bit fanboyish. Sony does not make LCDs, period. They contract out to AUO, CMO, and Samsung. So unless you're talking about the frame and the controls (who cares about those?), there's no reason to buy specifically Sony there. Another company that uses the same panel from the same OEM will look exactly the same; you just have to research the models well to make sure. It's like power supplies in that regard.

My Thermaltake Toughpower 750W is basically the same as the Corsair TX750, with very minor differences; both CWT-made to nearly the same specifications.
 
EQTakeOffense said:
What does any of that have to do with price of the movies?
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Because people could burn DVDs (which is why they have to stay competitive) and they were still fighting VHS. That's why DVD is so low. We have very little in the way of Blu-Rayburners so they can chharge $40 for a movie and they will.
 
L33t Masta said:
Because people could burn DVDs (which is why they have to stay competitive) and they were still fighting VHS. That's why DVD is so low. We have very little in the way of Blu-Rayburners so they can chharge $40 for a movie and they will.
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Why would the movie companies care about people owning DVD burners? To stay competitive to keep people from pirating movies? I highly doubt any movie studio prices movies based on piracy. I'll bet that they look to protect their investment through a new type of media (Bluray) rather then price to avoid piracy. To say that piracy is the main reason DVD's are low in price is not logical in any sense.
 
I still think HD-DVD can get a good foothold on the industry and cause at least one shakeup on its way out.

Release HD-DVD burners for computers.

I don't think it would save them, but it most certainly would stir something up. We need larger backup mediums than DVD's plain and simple. Not everyone wants to use hard drives.
 
To the people trying to argue with "L33t Masta:" Don't bother. For one thing, I think he was attempting to play devil's advocate. If you've seen any of his other posts, you'll know that he is absolutely incapable of anything other than undying love and admiration for Vista, and he just managed to bring that into this thread on a tiny, insignificant tangent.

But yeah, Blu-Ray is pretty damn expensive right now. $35 for a new movie at Best Buy is just slightly off the wall, especially considering the recession and the strength of the dollar these days. $25 is reasonable territory, but 35-40 is obscene.

I say this having already purchased 13 Blu-Ray movies, btw.
 
soulman901 said:
Movies that cost $24 will go up in price. They'll re-release them to take advantage of having no competition. This new price will be $34-40 depending on the movie. I call the Markup the HD-Tax, No HD-DVD means they can do what they want now instead of having to compete.
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Your logic is flawed. The other movies still have to compete with other titles, they are just competing on a more limited release. Besides with movie companies already signing exclusivity deals, we were already losing format choices. While the price might be a little higher, it will still fall under the same pressures of supply and demand, and it will still have to compete with similar movies being released at the same time.
 
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