Finally over WoW, considering LOTRO

CodeX said:
Look, if you play a game for 100 hours and then say you hate it you are a hippocrite.
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I don't agree with this at all. WoW's end-game is artificially inflated to consume massive amounts of time, because Blizzard wants to keep you paying and because they can't produce content faster than people consume it. The PvP endgame is dire therefore they have to put lots of ways in to slow down the rate at which people consume content, and to prevent them from closing their accounts.

They suddenly turn 5-man instances into 40-man, because they take longer to organise and you have very little chance to get equipment and therefore advance your character. It's all maths but boils down to advancement/minute dropping to ridiculously low levels.

They employ a variable rate reinforcement schedule on their reward system (which is particularly resistant to decay) in order to keep people subscribed even when the reward/time dips dangerously low. Blizzard didn't invent this, they just copied the idea from Evercrack, which used a very basic, well known phenomenon from behaviour/addiction studies.

Just because someone does something, it doesn't mean they are particularly enjoying it or think that it's a worthwile activity.

EDIT: Hmm. Never mind. 100 hours is not enough to get you to the end-game anyway. It's not until the first instance where people become exposed to the % drop rates and tiers of loot, which is the main driving force behind the addiction that kicks in at the higher levels. I'll leave the post up anyway as it's food for thought about what keeps people playing.
 
Finkus said:
Did you read the bit where I said "If you are a MMORPG veteran".

i.e. You've played lots of MMORPGs and seen lots of end-games, therefore you can extrapolate based on some gameplay and a quick browse over a FAQ and a spin on a forum or two.

WoW in particular, since of all the all the MMORPGs available it has to be the least innovative and most derivate of any of them.
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It does not matter if you have played every MMO that was ever created.
The point still stands that the start of leveling and the end of leveling are two different aspects of the game, so you can be a "veteran," but it still takes actually game play to truly know how a game feels.
 
theDreamer said:
It does not matter if you have played every MMO that was ever created.
The point still stands that the start of leveling and the end of leveling are two different aspects of the game, so you can be a "veteran," but it still takes actually game play to truly know how a game feels.
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That's why I said 30 mins to an hour. I think that's a realistic amount of time to get a feel for the game engine, the level of polish, the standard of the writing and integration of lore into the play itself, the UI facilities, the player movement, animation and combat style and some rudimentary idea of character progression etc.

Then you mix that into your previous experiences and whatever info you have found from the official site and various message board topics and you can pretty much gauge what you're going to be spending your money on.

I only got to level 5 in LOTRO (a retail product) , got a feel for all of the things I listed above. Then made several other characters to see some combat animations/ability lists of other classes and to run around the starting areas for various races to get a better feel of the art style and zone designs for different regions.

Then I logged out and cancelled my account and uninstalled the game. I felt that I had played that game a hundred times already and that it wasn't looking so polished this time around and it definately wasn't for me. I doubt that minor distractions like monster play or musical compositions are going to change that opinion, even though they seem like novel ideas in themselves.

I knew within 10-30 minutes of logging into Vanguard beta that it was going to bomb horribly. You didn't need to be a MMORPG veteran to predict that though lol. I did actually pick it up at release because I thought that the world design was beautiful and wanted to spend some time running around it when it was a little bit more stable. I never once thought that I would play the game properly though but I'm glad I got to see some of the world they had created.

I knew within an hour of Auto Assault beta that it hadn't a chance in hell either, even though I loved that genre in single player games.

etc. etc. etc.
 
I really wish LOTRO had a demo. I almost bought it tonight but I dont want to pay $50 for a game I will hate
 
MrFace said:
I really wish LOTRO had a demo. I almost bought it tonight but I dont want to pay $50 for a game I will hate
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I'm guessing it will start haemorrhaging customers before long and they will be throwing around 14-day trial keys all over the place. Most MMORPGs do after the post-release buzz wears off.
 
Didn't realize my thread was still alive. I have decided to pass on LOTRO. It is actually a solid game but I think I just need time away from MMO's until Warhammer. I can now appreciate all the other PC games I missed and wipe the dust off my Xbox 360.
 
ressurecting this thread for some impressions..
I've been very disappointed at how the graphics look in this game. Outdoor environments so far are very poorly textured (settings are on high with 4xAA and 1600/1200 res), water looks hideous, etc.

Do other zones start to look better? Even the little touches were missing...footprints in the snow and such that seem standard nowadays.
 
I think the water looks great.

waterde3.jpg


Make sure Post-Processing Effects are enabled in the advanced option interface.
 
I'll give that a try thanks. Maybe it's the zones I'm in. The waterfalls particularly look like something out of a late 90s game.

That screenie looks great
 
I bought LOTR a month ago, played it for 3 hours and uninstalled it. Went right back to WoW (that I had been playing since release).

Just a few days ago, I reinstalled it, played it for about 12 hours total within a couple days and love it. The quests in it feel like they're actually contributing to the overall picture, I enjoy the realism and the subtle originalities such as playing instruments, and I find (matter of opinion of course) that it's refreshing to be able to get into a role-play setting without difficulty (in WoW don't you dare RP on a PvP server or you'll get a good talking-to from a 12yr old in the Barrens).

There was a little getting used to in order to get into the "groove" of the game, but once I was set, it's just a fun ride. I'm level 7 right now and can't put it down.

/bye WoW
 
Volume said:
I bought LOTR a month ago, played it for 3 hours and uninstalled it. Went right back to WoW (that I had been playing since release).

Just a few days ago, I reinstalled it, played it for about 12 hours total within a couple days and love it. The quests in it feel like they're actually contributing to the overall picture, I enjoy the realism and the subtle originalities such as playing instruments, and I find (matter of opinion of course) that it's refreshing to be able to get into a role-play setting without difficulty (in WoW don't you dare RP on a PvP server or you'll get a good talking-to from a 12yr old in the Barrens).

There was a little getting used to in order to get into the "groove" of the game, but once I was set, it's just a fun ride. I'm level 7 right now and can't put it down.

/bye WoW
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Hmm, I played it for about 5 hours too before uninstalling it, my time has now ran out. You think I shall reinstall and pay fora month? lol I am still quite happy with WoW though. However teh Fing horde is driving me nuts.
 
ivan_gromov said:
Hmm, I played it for about 5 hours too before uninstalling it, my time has now ran out. You think I shall reinstall and pay fora month? lol I am still quite happy with WoW though. However teh Fing horde is driving me nuts.
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What led me to uninstalling it at first was that it was an impulse buy and I was expecting a WoW-killer. If you realize that these two games CANNOT be directly compared, you will enjoy each for its strengths. For the time being LOTR seems to be the MMO for me to be playing.

I think it may be one of those moments where you need to be "in the mood" for a game and then you get more absorbed into it, and begin to appreciate its subtleties and overall gameplay. I appreciate it for the realism and storyline. You can't really compare it to WoW. I think it's more immersive and I enjoy the graphics. :)
 
Playing for only a few hours will only show you the basics of the game and isn't really indicative of the later game too much imho. The game gets better once you start getting into the upper teens and above.
That said, it will never be a WoW killer but it does have it's own niche and style of play so don't discount it just because it's not what you want it to be. I play it sparingly when i get bored with WoW and vice-versa so i get my fix either way..lol
I figure once LoTRO is out for a year or two, it will be a lot better with a few expansions, content added in. If not we can always see what the next-gen MMo's are like...:p
 
kamxam said:
Playing for only a few hours will only show you the basics of the game and isn't really indicative of the later game too much imho. The game gets better once you start getting into the upper teens and above.
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I agree with this. I beta tested LoTRO a while back and thought it was absolute garbage. Having been sick of WoW for the final time, I decided to give it another shot. A week later I'm playing a 22 burglar and I'm loving it. One of the quests I did last night was like a mini-raid. It was pretty difficult for it only being a lv 22 quest and we even had a lv 40 minstrel (healer). I also like how casual the game is. I can log in for an hour and actually get quite a bit done. Seems more MMOs are shifting to this and I love it.
 
phobic said:
I agree with this. I beta tested LoTRO a while back and thought it was absolute garbage. Having been sick of WoW for the final time, I decided to give it another shot. A week later I'm playing a 22 burglar and I'm loving it. One of the quests I did last night was like a mini-raid. It was pretty difficult for it only being a lv 22 quest and we even had a lv 40 minstrel (healer). I also like how casual the game is. I can log in for an hour and actually get quite a bit done. Seems more MMOs are shifting to this and I love it.
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The atmosphere just wasn't the same in LOTRO. I don't know, didn't feel great, to me at least. I love WoW right now, though I do not have much time to play at all.
 
As people have already stated, you cannot compare the two games, WoW is on a whole other level. But for what it is, it's not a bad game, I just wouldn't play it because I am too used to a much better game.
 
CodeX said:
I just wouldn't play it because I am too used to a much better game.
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How many times are you going to try to say that WoW is so much a better game. It is not. It might have different content, or a different atmosphere that you enjoy better, but that does not rank it above for others. They are slightly different games, neither of which is greater than the other. LOTRO has things that WoW does/can not have, and WoW has other aspects that out due LOTRO.
 
CodeX said:
As people have already stated, you cannot compare the two games, WoW is on a whole other level. But for what it is, it's not a bad game, I just wouldn't play it because I am too used to a much better game.
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I still do not get why you dissing on the game so much. i did not like it partially becasue i like WoW right now quite some, and I did not like how it felt in general. But, in no means it is a bad game. Look at what GW turned in to.
 
CodeX said:
Comprehend much?



10 million people say otherwise.
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So what...just because people play the game does not mean it is better. Yes that is technically contradictory with what people say about a game. More people = better game. Yet I am saying you keep interjecting that WoW is "SOOO awesome" when it in reality is a pretty mediocre game to begin with. The reason it does so well, is that when you being playing it becomes the ultimate time sink of a game, while other better games do not hold you as long, but are more in depth and over all more fulfilling.

Also, a time sink does not equal a good game, it just equals high amounts of customer base numbers. Meaning you can drag in large amounts of customers over a certain amount of time, while many other games lose players after so long since they beat the game or see no reward after playing for so long.
 
theDreamer said:
So what...just because people play the game does not mean it is better. Yes that is technically contradictory with what people say about a game. More people = better game. Yet I am saying you keep interjecting that WoW is "SOOO awesome" when it in reality is a pretty mediocre game to begin with. The reason it does so well, is that when you being playing it becomes the ultimate time sink of a game, while other better games do not hold you as long, but are more in depth and over all more fulfilling.

Also, a time sink does not equal a good game, it just equals high amounts of customer base numbers. Meaning you can drag in large amounts of customers over a certain amount of time, while many other games lose players after so long since they beat the game or see no reward after playing for so long.
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Hell, WoW has a ton of grinding, but I do not play it for that. It's purely fun, I pretty much enjoy every aspect of it, besides horde.
 
ivan_gromov said:
Hell, WoW has a ton of grinding, but I do not play it for that. It's purely fun, I pretty much enjoy every aspect of it, besides horde.
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WoW is 100% grinding, which is why it is the ultimate time sink, all aspects of the game revolve around grinding.
 
theDreamer said:
WoW is 100% grinding, which is why it is the ultimate time sink, all aspects of the game revolve around grinding.
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Define grinding? Every game has grinding, Every FPS has grinding, you kill the same old monster or the same old enemy a hundred times over, that is grinding. It is really no different than any other game. WoW, by far, is the LEAST dependant on grinding than any MMO I have ever played. You can do any of the over 40,000 quests and get to end game without grinding anything. Do a lot of these quests require you to kill a certain number of things? of course. Do levels in farcry require you to kill a certain number of things... :rolleyes:
 
CodeX said:
Define grinding? Every game has grinding, Every FPS has grinding, you kill the same old monster or the same old enemy a hundred times over, that is grinding. It is really no different than any other game. WoW, by far, is the LEAST dependant on grinding than any MMO I have ever played. You can do any of the over 40,000 quests and get to end game without grinding anything. Do a lot of these quests require you to kill a certain number of things? of course. Do levels in farcry require you to kill a certain number of things... :rolleyes:
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I am in reference to other MMOs.
WoW is always about grinding.
~You leveling is a grind.
~To get professions is a grind - in the point that you grind to get X amount to craft certain items.
~To get X item from a faction you must grind rep.
~Many times to enter an instance you need X rep to enter, grinding.
~PvP: you grind honor.
~Technically, doing a chain of quests is grinding for the end reward you get.
~Doing instances for X item that drops is grinding.

I know I am missing points here, but they still revolve around grinding in WoW.

You can not deny WoW is about grinding, and always was and will be, why? It is what keeps both casual and hardcore players in the game at the same time. It is the very point that actually makes an MMO work, but for that matter it does not make an MMO good/great just because it can gather large groups of players.
 
So, again, define grinding? The requirement to do certain things to achieve a goal is what it seems like you are referring to it as. In that case, give me one game where that is not a factor?

Why are we extending the term to such a broad array of activities. In my opinion grinding is doing the same (small) thing over and over again without direction and with the sole intent of progressing your character. The only time that happens in WoW is on certain quest where you have to kill x number of enemies. Getting rep is not grinding because there are many different ways to get it. PvP'ing is not grinding, it is simply PvP'ing, it is a game in and of itself... Doing instances is not grinding it is playing the freaking game, it is a dungeon in a RPG, how is it grinding? Your idea of what grinding is is fundamentally flawed.

Try to respond to what I said this time and not go off on a tangent like an ADD child.
 
grind verb, ground or (Rare ) grind•ed; grind•ing; noun –verb (used with object)

17. laborious, usually uninteresting work.

20. grind out,
a. to produce in a routine or mechanical way: to grind out levels/reputation/gear (see World of Warcraft)


Chortle.
 
Space_Coyote said:
grind verb, ground or (Rare ) grind•ed; grind•ing; noun –verb (used with object)

17. laborious, usually uninteresting work (see World of Warcraft)

Chortle.
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"Laborious" work? Thats one hell of a definition, try being literate next time you want to be witty.

The Burning Crusade sold 2.7 million copies the day it was released, making it the most anticipated and fastest selling game of all time. You can say what you want about it I am telling you what you call a grind is not any different than what you do in any other game and it is a ton of fun, the numbers speak for themselves, I feel bad for the people who are going to miss out on it because of their preconceived notions.
 
Doing the same instances or raids over and over, until you want to smash your head against a wall, just so you can get the rep/gear you think you need, seems to fit the description rather well. Learn2readmore?
 
CodeX said:
So, again, define grinding? The requirement to do certain things to achieve a goal is what it seems like you are referring to it as. In that case, give me one game where that is not a factor?

Why are we extending the term to such a broad array of activities. In my opinion grinding is doing the same (small) thing over and over again without direction and with the sole intent of progressing your character. The only time that happens in WoW is on certain quest where you have to kill x number of enemies. Getting rep is not grinding because there are many different ways to get it. PvP'ing is not grinding, it is simply PvP'ing, it is a game in and of itself... Doing instances is not grinding it is playing the freaking game, it is a dungeon in a RPG, how is it grinding? Your idea of what grinding is is fundamentally flawed.

Try to respond to what I said this time and not go off on a tangent like an ADD child.
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Please refrain from calling me a name, I was responding to your post exactly as you asked, I will try better this time for you I guess.

Grinding
~You do an instance you are grinding, you must repeat that instance how ever many times to get such item or quest done that you want.
~You are grinding in PvP as you are trying to achieve honor, grinding for armor or weapons in a repeated fashion in a similar state. Now PvP is something I always enjoyed and do not wish to call grinding as I actually liked it, but stepping back and looking it is grinding.
~Faction, is always a grind, now you have multiple ways to achieve this goal, but you are still set forth on reaching it in your grind.
~Professions, you must pick an item numerous times or mine, or create to increase your skill, this is a grind in getting the item, getting the material, making it, etc.


Again, we are strictly sticking to MMOs in this discussion. An FPS is a time sink in itself, but a different classification under different set of rules, still there is "grinding" or repeated tasks, but different genre of game.

Grinding - Grinding is a pejorative term used in computer gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay (more often than not, battles in RPGs) in order to gain access to other features within the game. The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content.

My idea of grinding is how it has been for many MMOs in the past, it is as defined above.
 
Space_Coyote said:
Doing the same instances or raids over and over, until you want to smash your head against a wall, just so you can get the rep/gear you think you need, seems to fit the description rather well. Learn2readmore?
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You dont have to do that... That is end game, after a hundred or more hours of enjoyment... Its like saying "If I play Half Life 2 straight through 30 times in a row I am going to be bored of it"... well you dont have to keep playing once you get to end game, just like you don't have to play half life 2 30 times in a row.
 
The Burning Crusade sold 2.7 million copies the day it was released, making it the most anticipated and fastest selling game of all time. You can say what you want about it I am telling you what you call a grind is not any different than what you do in any other game and it is a ton of fun, the numbers speak for themselves, I feel bad for the people who are going to miss out on it because of their preconceived notions.
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Yes, where are the other ~7 million copies that are considered customers?
Wait, that is right, they waited to see if WoW was even worth the time or effort to play past the expansion, and I was one of them. I bought the expansion about one week after it came out (actually because I was overseas & needed a US copy), and found out quickly that the game is, guess what, exactly the same as it was before BC. It is grinding, for faction, PvP, instances, or level. BC did not bring to the table anything that was completely new or different than what was laid before it. Great that they brought out new instances, new gear, and some new talents. Yet many of it is the same thing overlaid over similar aspects of the old game; just like many of the instances, new challenge though less people. That is great, but you are doing the same thing, mobs are the same with no new great additions to the game.
 
CodeX said:
You dont have to do that... That is end game, after a hundred or more hours of enjoyment... Its like saying "If I play Half Life 2 straight through 30 times in a row I am going to be bored of it"... well you dont have to keep playing once you get to end game, just like you don't have to play half life 2 30 times in a row.
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So you are saying once you are done leveling there is no point to the game? So after questing and doing all that grinding to 60 (70 now) I just quit? Why even play then?
 
theDreamer said:
Grinding
~You do an instance you are grinding, you must repeat that instance how ever many times to get such item or quest done that you want.
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If you have a quest to do it, you can do it the first time. No one says you have to keep doing it, if you are doing something you don't enjoy you are dumb. I like doing instances, when I get to the point that I am bored of them I will stop doing them.

theDreamer said:
~You are grinding in PvP as you are trying to achieve honor, grinding for armor or weapons in a repeated fashion in a similar state. Now PvP is something I always enjoyed and do not wish to call grinding as I actually liked it, but stepping back and looking it is grinding.
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There are whole games based on PvP'ing, it is simply playing the game. You don't have to do it until you get an item, the honor rewards and items are simply bonuses you can get. No one has a gun to your head. Again, if you don't want to do it any more, dont. If you continue doing it even though you are bored of it it is your own fault.

theDreamer said:
~Faction, is always a grind, now you have multiple ways to achieve this goal, but you are still set forth on reaching it in your grind.
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So again, you have to accomplish certain objectives to reach a certain goal... sounds like every other game I have ever played

theDreamer said:
~Professions, you must pick an item numerous times or mine, or create to increase your skill, this is a grind in getting the item, getting the material, making it, etc.
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Should they just give you full ability to begin with? leveling up your professions is a representation of gaining skill and experience as you would in the real world.

theDreamer said:
Grinding - Grinding is a pejorative term used in computer gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay (more often than not, battles in RPGs) in order to gain access to other features within the game. The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs, in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill monsters, using basically the same strategy over and over again, in order to advance their character level to be able to access newer content.
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Again, if it is not entertaining, don't do it. I happen to enjoy destroying mobs with my well geared level 70. If I stopped enjoying it I would stop playing it. By your definition it is not a grind for me, as it does not meet the qualification that it is "non-entertaining"
 
theDreamer said:
So you are saying once you are done leveling there is no point to the game? So after questing and doing all that grinding to 60 (70 now) I just quit? Why even play then?
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Some people (~10 million of them) ENJOY playing the game to level 70, and some people enjoy playing the game after that. However, if you continue playing the game once you stop enjoying it, you are an idiot.
 
theDreamer said:
Yes, where are the other ~7 million copies that are considered customers?
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I said the day it was released, I didnt say total. The figure is for box sales also, not including online purchases and downloads.

Using a mod called census+ I can show you how many players (at least) have the expansion compared to the total on my server, It is ~90%. The other 10% don't necessarily not have the expansion, they just aren't high enough level to use it yet.
 
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