Interview With AMD About Mantle And New Radeon Cards

octoberasian said:
In other words, it's a popularity contest. Whoever is more popular and more used by the masses will be the more common API to use. The others will be second or third.
Think of DirectX as that sexy cheerleader winning Homecoming Queen and Prom Queen. She's popular, her dad's rich, and she drives a nice car and is friends with all the popular girls on campus. Every girl either envies her or despises her. Yet, she gets her way-- most of the time. Daddy's rich so she knows she can do whatever she wants. And, she's just about been with nearly every jock on campus.

OpenGL is that mousy haired geek with glasses sitting in the library getting 1400 to 1600 on the SAT I test. She gets the As and Bs in class but isn't popular with many of her classmates. Her dad isn't rich and she's open to new ideas and tries to come up with some herself. More brains than beauty in other words, but it doesn't get her the popular guys and she's more well known amongst the Gee Club, Chess Club, and the Computer Science class.

Then, Mantle comes along and she's the new kid in class. The outcast trying to fit in among the Jocks, the Greasers, the Geeks, and the Mean Girls but still trying to find her place among other people. She's into deathmetal, rock and roll, and some weird artsy stuff. She's trying to be unique, or trying too hard to. She's basically misunderstood and she's not doing it to get popular, she's trying to fit in. Or, so I think she is.​
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I'm sorry, but I have to ask ...are you developing some kind of weird API dating simulator?
 
Elios said:
with luck Mantle will be DOA be for AMD starts paying devs for Mantle only games
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You shouldn't be so scared for that. Developers wants to sell as much of their game as possible, so they are targeting many platforms to do so. That won't change.

What would change, is that Mantle can give MORE people a possibility to play the games without having to invest extremely much in hardware. If it becomes viable to game decently on a low-powered APU, as example, the PC gaming crowd will grow bigger. Without Mantle, many low-powered APU's might not have the omph to play several games or they have to turn off much eye-candy to do so.

Mantle is also designed, according to AMD, so that its not completely locked for other vendors:

Chris Hook, Head of PR - There aren't many companies of course... Because of GCN they don't have Mantle capable hardware today…

RK - But Johan said it clearly in his video that he's hoping that Mantle becomes a standard adopted by other companies which means, because game developers were involved in the design, there was feedback loop, … that it is not designed in such a way that it can only work on our architecture. It's a thin abstraction, it's low level. Still it kind of amazingly provides all the performance, all what can be allowed on our architecture.

http://www.hardware.fr/focus/89/amd-mantle-interview-raja-koduri.html
 
becouse NV is really going to make a GCN based card....
more likely they come up with there own API

and then get in war and you end up with some thing like Frostbite being AMD only and UE being NV only
THATS A GREAT out come
AMD can screw off
 
Elios said:
becouse NV is really going to make a GCN based card....
more likely they come up with there own API

and then get in war and you end up with some thing like Frostbite being AMD only and UE being NV only
THATS A GREAT out come
AMD can screw off
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Elios said:
becouse NV is really going to make a GCN based card....
more likely they come up with there own API

and then get in war and you end up with some thing like Frostbite being AMD only and UE being NV only
THATS A GREAT out come
AMD can screw off
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nvidia fumbled the ball on the 40 and AMD picked it up and they running with it.... the 20 the 10... Score!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AMD! ....AMD! ....AMD! ....AMD! ....AMD! ....AMD! ....AMD! ....AMD! ....AMD!
 
Elios said:
becouse NV is really going to make a GCN based card....
more likely they come up with there own API
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nVidia already do have their own API. What AMD is doing is not as amazing as their PR team are trying to make it.
 
Elios said:
becouse NV is really going to make a GCN based card....
more likely they come up with there own API

and then get in war and you end up with some thing like Frostbite being AMD only and UE being NV only
THATS A GREAT out come
AMD can screw off
Click to expand...

I don't think you understand what I highlighted for you in red: that it is not designed in such a way that it can only work on our architecture.

Its made so that it can work on other architectures in the future. For now its GCN only.

Later on, Intel might find it to be a good idea that their weak iGPUs gets some gaming love. AMD have already talked about releasing an SDK.
http://vr-zone.com/articles/mantling-alliances-ritchie-corpus-amd-interview/58215.html

Microsoft might find it to be a good idea to launch tablets with APU and somewhat gaming capabilities.

In the end, Nvidia might have to swallow their pride and submit to the new Mantle overlord :p
 
NVAPI is not an API, Mantle will be an API.

CUDA is closer to an API than NVAPI, and that one is really closed.

In any case, CHEERS FOR AMD! it was about time that someone would do an abstraction for graphics to go around the OS direct to the metal on PCs.
 
Elios is not interested in a logical conversation.
AMD = bad
Mantle = bad
narrow minded = fan boy
 
Elios said:
becouse NV is really going to make a GCN based card....
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He didn't suggest Nvidia build a GCN-based card...

He suggested that Mantle is designed so that it can be supported on more than just the GCN architecture (the endpoint being that it's possible to make the API compatible with Nvidia cards).

I have no doubt that AMD and Nvidia have almost full function equivalence (as far as instructions supported by the hardware go), meaning most of the work will simply be QA testing to make sure a supposedly equivalent function generates the same result on both Nvidia and AMD chips.
 
cptnjarhead said:
Elios is not interested in a logical conversation.
AMD = bad
Mantle = bad
narrow minded = fan boy
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let fix that
low level APIs =BAD

if NV tried the push the same shit id say the same thing
PhysX at the start was ok then NV bought them out and raged about that too

if AMD really wanted to kill DX they should made a new high level API but they picked a low level one since it locks in the hardware

wait for NV to counter with there only low level bullshit and watch PC gaming come crashing down
 
Unknown-One said:
He didn't suggest Nvidia build a GCN-based card...

He suggested that Mantle is designed so that it can be supported on more than just the GCN architecture (the endpoint being that it's possible to make the API compatible with Nvidia cards)
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Exactly. :) AMD has invested heavily in the vendor neutral HSA. I'm guessing this is going to be a part of it in the end.
 
Unknown-One said:
He didn't suggest Nvidia build a GCN-based card...

He suggested that Mantle is designed so that it can be supported on more than just the GCN architecture (the endpoint being that it's possible to make the API compatible with Nvidia cards)
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then its not low level
its low level or it can support more then one hardware set
you dont get both
if it could ever support more then GCN then they will be lucky to get 5% gains in which case AMD will look like tools for even trying this
if its really low level itll have gains in the 15% to 20% range and NV will likely tell AMD to piss off and make there own API

and one of the two will try to get a game locked to there hardware in NV comes out with there own API itll likely be them
you can bet AMD will follow quickly after that and its all down hill from there
 
Elios said:
let fix that
low level APIs =BAD

if NV tried the push the same shit id say the same thing
PhysX at the start was ok then NV bought them out and raged about that too

if AMD really wanted to kill DX they should made a new high level API but they picked a low level one since it locks in the hardware

wait for NV to counter with there only low level bullshit and watch PC gaming come crashing down
Click to expand...

 
Raja Koduri himself debunking the uneducated fanboy myth that Microsoft is or will be against Mantle. It seems Microsoft has known about it all along:

Scroll down the article, the Q&A is in full english: http://www.hardware.fr/focus/89/amd-mantle-interview-raja-koduri.html
What is Microsoft's reaction to the Mantle move? Some would guess they like it, some would guess they hate you for it...

RK - I can't obviously comment on Microsoft, but the thing I can say is we have a great relationship with Microsoft. We are one of the best partners they have in terms of moving DirectX forward. We move DirectX forward, we work with Microsoft on every version of DirectX and we will continue to do that and obviously we wouldn't surprise them with anything like Mantle so you can read between the lines.

Both us and Microsoft are committed to PC gaming and we want to do the right thing for game developers and end-users too. Right now this felt like the right answer, like the right solution to provide for what the game developers are asking during this transition and we are responding to that.

It is not about competition between APIs, we have ten times more resources working on DirectX than Mantle. We have twenty times more resources working on other standard APIs like OpenGL and OpenCL than on Mantle. To keep things in perspective, our support for industry standards hasn't diminished a bit; in fact if anything we'll be focusing more on that stuff. Mantle is solving this specific problem that specific several game developers have and we thought it's the right thing to help them.
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More and more it becomes pretty evident that the entire industry is behind and supports Mantle.
 
Elios said:
let fix that
low level APIs =BAD

if NV tried the push the same shit id say the same thing
PhysX at the start was ok then NV bought them out and raged about that too

if AMD really wanted to kill DX they should made a new high level API but they picked a low level one since it locks in the hardware

wait for NV to counter with there only low level bullshit and watch PC gaming come crashing down
Click to expand...

well, you should just join the doomsday castle right now then and call it quits.
have fun with that. While the rest of us enjoy the future and all the cool games that will come from AMD bringing more Console Developers to the PC table.
Turning you off now... bye bye :)
 
Elios said:
then its not low level
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Correct, it's not. Not in the "bare metal" sense anyway

Elios said:
its low level or it can support more then one hardware set
you dont get both
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Yes and no...

It's possible to be lower-level than Direct3D and OpenGL without being non-portable. Mantle is about as low as you can go and have portability still be an option.

Put simply, that lands you with a low-level API (relative to D3D / OGL) that is also portable.

Elios said:
if it could ever support more then GCN then they will be lucky to get 5% gains in which case AMD will look like tools for even trying this
if its really low level itll have gains in the 15% to 20% range and NV will likely tell AMD to piss off and make there own API
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You are pulling those numbers out of thin air, you have no idea how it will perform either way at this point.

Just because it's still semi-portable doesn't suddenly mean it comes with a gigantic performance hit. It's also in AMD's best interests to provide some modicum of portability, just in case they need to account for major architectural changes on their own cards in the future.
 
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Elios said:
because i like having to own 2 video cards so an play the games i want
how about NO
AMDs end game will be to lock out nvidia Mantle or nothing and dont think it hasnt crossed the minds of the management at AMD
that is the ONLY reason they green lighted this

and you also missed how AMD has now locked them selves in to GCN for the next for ever as well that worked out great for 3Dfx
im going to laugh when NV and Intel get MS to make major change in DX that would break Mantle by forcing AMD to drastically change there GPU
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Really? So with that thought process, PhysX can only run on the same chips that the original version of PhysX ran on.

It is called multiple code paths. The driver detects what is installed, and goes with the appropriate code path.

Pretty simple and it could be done on boot.
 
cptnjarhead said:
well, you should just join the doomsday castle right now then and call it quits.
have fun with that. While the rest of us enjoy the future and all the cool games that will come from AMD bringing more Console Developers to the PC table.
Turning you off now... bye bye :)
Click to expand...

more like all the PC devs AMD takes to consoles now the real story comes out
 
Lorien said:
Raja Koduri himself debunking the uneducated fanboy myth that Microsoft is or will be against Mantle. It seems Microsoft has known about it all along:

Scroll down the article, the Q&A is in full english: http://www.hardware.fr/focus/89/amd-mantle-interview-raja-koduri.html
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i dont believe that MS is all that behind PC gaming, unless its based on DX and even then, they seem to give us the cold shoulder. I dont think there will be much love for Mantle by MS, but maybe MS will embrace "Mantle" bridging the console gap for devs, but i doubt it.
If they dont, i see a separate partition with steam/OS/Mantle in my future, or maybe a custom box altogether ;)
 
Elios said:
pretty clear MS wants to scuttle PC gaming then
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MS have a model to unite PC, mobile and console. Mantle is advertised as a bridge between consoles and PC. That is a good thing. MS might even have a Mantle supported APU in the woodworks to increase their tablet sales. I would be surprised if they didn't, since it might help them in the tablet market and boost the X86 advantage MS have there.

Mantle also have the possibility to make Linux gaming more viable, if AMD chooses to create Linux support for it. Should increase the PC gaming base a bit.

Mantle might also give some gaming love to Mac users.

If you care about PC, care about all those with low-level specs that might actually get gaming capabilities with Mantle. Care about all those people who regains some of the lost performance due differences between consoles and PC. Getting console-like performance on a PC isn't bad for PC gamers ...

We don't know how Mantle will perform, but they went into much effort making it and are hinting about more AAA developers not revealed yet. It might be a big consumer win.

Many people buy low-level hardware and might not be able to game, Mantle might make all the difference. If you look beside the whole AMD and Nvidia, and think about the big picture, its a great thing for consumers.
 
Unknown-One said:
Correct, it's not. Not in the "bare metal" sense anyway


Yes and no...

It's possible to be lower-level than Direct3D and OpenGL without being non-portable. Mantle is about as low as you can go and have portability still be an option.

Put simply, that lands you with a low-level API (relative to D3D / OGL) that is also portable.


You are pulling those numbers out of thin air, you have no idea how it will perform either way at this point.

Just because it's still semi-portable doesn't suddenly mean it comes with a gigantic performance hit. It's also in AMD's best interests to provide some modicum of portability, just in case they need to account for major architectural changes on their own cards in the future.
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then why cant AMD make it work on there own non-GCN cards
maybe IT IS that low level and AMD is spining it to not confirm the fears yet
the cat will be out of the bag sooner or later
 
Tamlin_WSGF said:
MS have a model to unite PC, mobile and console. Mantle is advertised as a bridge between consoles and PC. That is a good thing. MS might even have a Mantle supported APU in the woodworks to increase their tablet sales. I would be surprised if they didn't, since it might help them in the tablet market and boost the X86 advantage MS have there.

Mantle also have the possibility to make Linux gaming more viable, if AMD chooses to create Linux support for it. Should increase the PC gaming base a bit.

Mantle might also give some gaming love to Mac users.

If you care about PC, care about all those with low-level specs that might actually get gaming capabilities with Mantle. Care about all those people who regains some of the lost performance due differences between consoles and PC. Getting console-like performance on a PC isn't bad for PC gamers ...

We don't know how Mantle will perform, but they went into much effort making it and are hinting about more AAA developers not revealed yet. It might be a big consumer win.

Many people buy low-level hardware and might not be able to game, Mantle might make all the difference. If you look beside the whole AMD and Nvidia, and think about the big picture, its a great thing for consumers.
Click to expand...

already have OpenGL dont need another API
AMD can again fuck right off
if AMD wanted to ditch DX they could fix there awful OpenGL drivers
 
Tamlin_WSGF said:
MS have a model to unite PC, mobile and console. Mantle is advertised as a bridge between consoles and PC. That is a good thing. MS might even have a Mantle supported APU in the woodworks to increase their tablet sales. I would be surprised if they didn't, since it might help them in the tablet market and boost the X86 advantage MS have there.

Mantle also have the possibility to make Linux gaming more viable, if AMD chooses to create Linux support for it. Should increase the PC gaming base a bit.

Mantle might also give some gaming love to Mac users.

If you care about PC, care about all those with low-level specs that might actually get gaming capabilities with Mantle. Care about all those people who regains some of the lost performance due differences between consoles and PC. Getting console-like performance on a PC isn't bad for PC gamers ...

We don't know how Mantle will perform, but they went into much effort making it and are hinting about more AAA developers not revealed yet. It might be a big consumer win.

Many people buy low-level hardware and might not be able to game, Mantle might make all the difference. If you look beside the whole AMD and Nvidia, and think about the big picture, its a great thing for consumers.
Click to expand...

true, think of all those farmville players that will be able to play BF5 :D
i totally agree though, AMD is opening the door for devs to bring their games to our platform, im excited as hell. instead of a market based on high-end desktops, they can expand to moderate to low end and laptops. Win Win!
 
Elios said:
already have OpenGL dont need another API
AMD can again fuck right off
if AMD wanted to ditch DX they could fix there awful OpenGL drivers
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Don't be a pottymouth...

If you don't need another API, stop complaining about not getting it.
 
Tamlin_WSGF said:
Don't be a pottymouth...

If you don't need another API, stop complaining about not getting it.
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because ether AMD or NV will at some point pay a dev to make a game that only works on there hardware
 
Elios said:
then why cant AMD make it work on there own non-GCN cards
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Because there's no money in it.

Releasing it for older cards costs them money in development time.
Releasing it for older cards costs them money in lost sales of newer cards.

They have zero incentive to support it on older cards.

Elios said:
maybe IT IS that low level and AMD is spining it to not confirm the fears yet
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Nah, it's not that low-level. It's pretty far from bare-metal.

Elios said:
already have OpenGL dont need another API
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There has actually already been talk of implementing Mantle extensions into OpenGL.

Code for OpenGL and you're done. Your renderer gets Mantle acceleration on computers with supported hardware, uses regular OpenGL on systems without supported hardware.

Write-once, run-anywhere. Welcome back to status-quo.
 
cptnjarhead said:
true, think of all those farmville players that will be able to play BF5 :D
i totally agree though, AMD is opening the door for devs to bring their games to our platform, im excited as hell. instead of a market based on high-end desktops, they can expand to moderate to low end and laptops. Win Win!
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I almost bought a Win8 pro tablet (have Ipad and tried streaming it windowed with Splashtop) just to be able to play Heroes of might and magic 3 on it. :p

Mantle has a potential to open doors for gamers. We don't know much about it yet, but it has promise considering the effort they sunk into it. Developers can target a much larger group besides the consoles. Now that China has lifted the console ban, we might need it. :)
 
Tamlin_WSGF said:
I almost bought a Win8 pro tablet (have Ipad and tried streaming it windowed with Splashtop) just to be able to play Heroes of might and magic 3 on it. :p

Mantle has a potential to open doors for gamers. We don't know much about it yet, but it has promise considering the effort they sunk into it. Developers can target a much larger group besides the consoles. Now that China has lifted the console ban, we might need it. :)
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agreed.
 
Unknown-One said:
Nah, it's not that low-level. It's pretty far from bare-metal.
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Please define "not that low-level" more specifically.

Unknown-One said:
There has actually already been talk of implementing Mantle extensions into OpenGL. Code for OpenGL and you're done. Your renderer gets Mantle acceleration on computers with supported hardware, uses regular OpenGL on systems without supported hardware.
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Unless those vendor-specific extensions are supported by every vendor (thereby becoming ubiquitous), offered as ARB extensions or integrated into the core profiles in a completely backwards-compatible way, no, it's not "code for OpenGL and you're done". Do you understand how the extension system works?
 
Elios said:
because ether AMD or NV will at some point pay a dev to make a game that only works on there hardware
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They won't. Its not cost effective and very little to be gained. There are a bucketload of developers and they want to sell their games. BF4 is a prime example of how Mantle will be implemented.

Nvidia and AMD will have superb DX 11 support from the Frostbite 3 engine games. AMD GCN owners will get a boost by selecting Mantle instead (in December). If the boost is good enough, AMD might get more vendors to support it.

AMD can't create support for other vendors on Mantle themselves, since they don't have the intimate knowledge of the hardware of the other vendors to do so.

I find Mantle to be a win for me as both an AMD AND a Nvidia consumer.
 
cptnjarhead said:
your wasting your time. Elios tried getting "free" Obama care and the site is down! :D
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:p Its entertaining though. Perhaps he'll see some of the benifits while we discuss. :)

Its a shame though they didn't agree upon the budget. My (sincere) sympathy for those that might get laid off from this.

On the bright side, Mantle might make it cheaper for them to get into gaming though. :D
 
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