ZeniMax Versus Oculus Heats Up

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Whoa, after months of hearing nothing about this lawsuit, a simple amendment just made things really interesting again. ZeniMax is now calling John Carmack a thief and, for good measure, the lawsuit also says Palmer Luckey is taking credit for ZeniMax's work.

“Instead of complying with his contract, during his last days at ZeniMax, he copied thousands of documents from a computer at ZeniMax to a USB storage device,” the amended filing (below) alleges. “He never returned those files or all copies of them after his employment with ZeniMax was terminated. In addition, after Carmack's employment with ZeniMax was terminated, he returned to ZeniMax's premises to take a customized tool for developing VR Technology belonging to ZeniMax that itself is part of ZeniMax's VR technology.”
 
Good grief! He was probably the one who made the tool in the first place. So what was the policy for copying files as an employee? Returning said files? If common practice and others routinely do those type of actions including massive replication or backup I see this going no where. If an individual is allowed to bring personal effects to work - the company can not just then take those items on a whim - they still belong to the individual - verbal agreement or policy as set out by history or precedent. If you are terminated from work that doesn't mean automatically all your private property is given up. Meaning you have a right to go get it or have the company deliver it to you. I hope John Carmack sues Zenimax and wins with this BS.
 
I dunno, it sounds like Carmack was using Zenimax time and resources for VR development. And if this 'customized tool', was a direct result of Carmack's work with Zenimax, I definitely see Zenimax's side of the issue.

Either way, I'm sure Zuckerberg could just unspool a few of his billion dollar toilet paper rolls and be done with Zenimax. Because the guy uses money to wipe his ass. Because he's so rich.
 
As much as I despise oculus, did these things really happen as stated? Seems like the timing is just too perfect.
 
noko said:
Good grief! He was probably the one who made the tool in the first place. So what was the policy for copying files as an employee? Returning said files? If common practice and others routinely do those type of actions including massive replication or backup I see this going no where. If an individual is allowed to bring personal effects to work - the company can not just then take those items on a whim - they still belong to the individual - verbal agreement or policy as set out by history or precedent. If you are terminated from work that doesn't mean automatically all your private property is given up. Meaning you have a right to go get it or have the company deliver it to you. I hope John Carmack sues Zenimax and wins with this BS.
Click to expand...

If he made the tool while employed at Zenimax then he doesn't own the tool unless he has a really unusual employment contract. In addition, if he copied Zenimax owned documents in his last days of work, that is also rather damning. Both of these are pretty standard don'ts in any knowledge company.
 
Here is what happened I'm guessing.

When Carmack was looking to sell the company / his stake and was putting the word on the street he was for sale, he did what any good business man would do, he talked his work up to potential buyers, his contribution ( namely his 3D engine ) his research and of course all his side projects. No doubt he mentioned VR during his talks.

So Zenimax buys the company, a ton of millions right? Soon after, Zenimax gets word that John Carmack has joined Lucky Palmer and they absolutely don't like that.

And, here we are today with a full blown lawsuit. But I think Carmack has already brushed them off and he sounds like he is pretty confident in that they have zero of a chance at anything but reimbursing his attony fees.
 
I've been following Oculus since the beginning, watching all the super early cardboard prototypes with exposed PCB's and everything, listening to Palmer discuss the issues that have held back VR, the key to having wide FOV lenses and low latency gyro's, and I feel confident that he indeed pioneered modern day VR. Is he a coder? No. Is he an architect? No. He had the idea and knew what needed to be done, and just stumbled upon the fact that those resources were currently available.

I also remember when carmack jumped on board, which I think he did precisely because he thought "it was neat". He then later began to recognize the potential and realized he can no longer win the 3d graphics engine race's anymore so he pivoted towards VR since it would give him something new to put his stamp on. Carmack likes to be a leader, not a follower. With the advent of Unreal Engine 3 and beyond, Unity engine, crytek's engines, etc he cant keep up against that competition anymore. I dont think he even wanted to, having felt that game engines have more or less reached a pinnacle of refinement that any imagination can be shared now. There are no limits. There's nothing you cant envision anymore. So he's completed his life's work in that department, time to move on.

Did he write code on Zenimax computers while bored and putting off other work duties? Yeah probably, but fuck Zenimax for thinking that entitles them to a piece of the pie. I dont care about the legal ramifications, it's unjust.
 
This isn't the first time Carmack (and company) have done this kind of thing. They famously 'borrowed' the computers from Softdisk when they were still working for them (Carmack, Hall and Romero) and developed what would become Id Software games with them. Back then, the culture was far less litigious, but did settle with an out-of-court agreement.

This is somewhat similar; he developed on Zenimax's time and on what are technically their systems and resources, thus everything he did was theirs. Legally, this would be binding and if it is so, he will lose. Is it just or fair? Probably not because as has been stated, he likely did develop everything he took, but legally, it wasn't his property. Maybe he had another agreement or some kind of personal patent thing going on, or just something to exclude his work from ownership by Zenimax, but this is unlikely. When Zenimax bought Id, Carmack's brain, ideas, reputation and past successes were likely the main reason.
 
What if he developed code/ideas etc. on his own laptop? Computer at home? How can Zenimax prove other wise? I am sure the precedent for Carmack since he owned the company prior to the sell was he had free reign. That understanding could very much been brought over and accepted when Zenimax bought the company. What was Carmack told? Agreed to etc.? Unless Zenimax has clear policies (WRITTEN, SIGNED, DELIVERED, DATED) on data use, storage, computer usage, personal work etc. they will not have a leg to stand on. The new policies would also need to have been enforced and clearly followed by others, better yet discipline used for those violating the policy. If not then ZeniMax can kiss Carmacks ass. You cannot just make up stuff after the fact and then claim foul. Of course there will be plenty of lawyers wanting to cash in saying other wise knowing full well how BS it is but always a chance even if slight for a big payoff prompts for some rather stupid lawsuits.

You know I have numerous projects I do at home which gets carried to work on my laptop when I bring it - that does not make it the companies and the theft would be the other way around if that work was stolen from me. Also Zenimax will probably need to prove they were actually developing VR in a substantial way. Since I don't know all the facts of the case this could indeed be Carmack stealing from Zenimax but also could be Zenimax trying to steal something from Oculus.
 
noko said:
What if he developed code/ideas etc. on his own laptop? Computer at home? How can Zenimax prove other wise? I am sure the precedent for Carmack since he owned the company prior to the sell was he had free reign. That understanding could very much been brought over and accepted when Zenimax bought the company. What was Carmack told? Agreed to etc.? Unless Zenimax has clear policies (WRITTEN, SIGNED, DELIVERED, DATED) on data use, storage, computer usage, personal work etc. they will not have a leg to stand on. The new policies would also need to have been enforced and clearly followed by others, better yet discipline used for those violating the policy. If not then ZeniMax can kiss Carmacks ass. You cannot just make up stuff after the fact and then claim foul. Of course there will be plenty of lawyers wanting to cash in saying other wise knowing full well how BS it is but always a chance even if slight for a big payoff prompts for some rather stupid lawsuits.

You know I have numerous projects I do at home which gets carried to work on my laptop when I bring it - that does not make it the companies and the theft would be the other way around if that work was stolen from me. Also Zenimax will probably need to prove they were actually developing VR in a substantial way. Since I don't know all the facts of the case this could indeed be Carmack stealing from Zenimax but also could be Zenimax trying to steal something from Oculus.
Click to expand...

The accusation says that he entered the building and copied off files from his computer - "he copied thousands of documents from a computer at ZeniMax to a USB storage device", so it doesn't look like it was his system or his time. I hope it works out for John and it does look suspicious (the timing), but Zenimax is a big company and buying Id was a big deal; I strongly doubt that much was left unsaid regarding who owns what. I am no lawyer and am not spekaing from experience or from having any insight, but I again doubt that Zenimax would push forward without some pretty good evidence. Time will tell I suppose.
 
My very first engineering boss did this. Left his old company and used tools off a USB stick at his new one. New company let him go, old company sued both the guy and the new company. Not sure what happened to the guy but the new company had to pay millions.

You create something on company time it's their IP. They own it.
 
From my experience (over 25 years in the bussiness) anything an employee develops on company resources (computers, time etc.) is theirs (the company). Also usually part of contracts is that anything being developed off hours are also typically owned by the company, there is an exemption most companies employ and that is if the tech one is working in isnt part of the companies core business but in that case that must be notified to the company and an approval must be made that its ok.

After all an employee has no idea where the leaders of the company are planning (usually) and it might even be that if the employee has a good idea that the company wants to run with it.

So in short if you are employed the company owns you and all you do and think, unless they say otherwise.
 
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