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XSNiper said:
so you are telling me you have never upgraded before and used something from your old systemMeanieMan said:
First off, AGP1x is double the PCI bus. Don't believe me? What's 2.1GB/s divided by 8? This would play a HUGE role in the performance difference between PCI and AGP1x, probably larger than the addition of GART- although you are right, GART is a very significant technology.lithium726 said:
Regarding two independent busses, the chipset is incapable of driving two independent busses- the only way to do that would be to have an auxiliary chip for a PCI-X type controller, and I don't believe any of the boards have that onboard.lithium726 said:
lithium726 said:
.although not as significant as the loss of GART, you better believe going from 2.1gbps to 133mbps is going to matter a hell of a lot - the PCI bus becomes overloaded with HD content and Gb-e, what do think is going to happen to it when doom3 is put on it?
while i realize this, going from 2.1gbps (or even teh 1gbps of 4x) to 133mbps is going to hurt performance considerablymavalpha said:
although the bottleneck is less, with games with large textures like doom or far cry, the bottleneck still exists, and anyone who is moving to PCIe at this moment will be wanting to play this stuff (well, the majority of people at least, some willa ctualy want it for its more important merits
) and their performance will be killed wtih this "XGP" garbage, especially with no GART. yeah, i know.. im one of those few people on this board taht know that PCIe isnt a move for graphics cards (at least not primarily), and that all the extra bandwidth doesnt do shit for games
yeah, seeing as how intel and AMD are having quite a bit of trouble scaling more, im very much looking forward to taht... best thing about graphics cards is they have no set architecture to adhere too, like intel and AMD do to x86...
yeah, i know, but the fact taht GbE does saturate is what i was getting at - i know that nvidia's chipsets bypass this with the HT link, and i dont even know what intel's do
(those are the only two i care about right now - via sucks and ATI's are in their infancy, although i would suspect they do it the same way is nvidia's... and they put the GbE on the PCIe bus for the intel platform.. i might be wrong though.
XSNiper said:
pstang said:
MeanieMan said:
incorrect, agp 1x is 66Mhz, and segregated from the pci bus, although is pci-sometimes bridged. the reviews cannot explain through benchmarking the benefits that the other modes provide, specially 8x. although, those that do graphic work do realize the benefit of a octal clocked fast write transfer of a large texture. there are other benefits to 8x such as, iscohronous transfers, better power standards and preventors of cross talk with compensation through dbi, sba ratification, etc.
pci's bandwidth is 133MBs, thats megabytes a second, not bits. mavalpha, is correct with this information. there is more to the pci bus, than saying it is just "a shared bus." one of the major contraints is due to the fact that it is a parallel bus. it is difficult, and costly to increase its speed due to cross talk, increased traces, and layering. serial is slower but it can be clocked higher to compensate this. decreases in traces due to point to point topology. since it has less traces it does not need as many layers of pcb. add layered packet schemes with qos abilities, priority tagging and you have a managed more efficient ability than pci. there are other benefits to pci express than this.
everything is shared with the computer. the difference is the contention is at a different point. contention on the pci starts with the device and goes up. with pcie contention starts with the pcie switch, not at the device as with pci. the packets are managed in a similar manner to ethernet beyond that. think as pci architecture is hub based and pci express is switched based, if you are familiar with ethernet, and osi layers.
incorrect, most GibE is over pci-x, pci-66. the recent solutions were provided more to non-enterprise consumers, such as csa.
meatycheesyboy said:
so you are saying people who want a budget system are stupid? some times its not a matter of poeple dont want to save up, maybe they dont want to spend a large amount of money on a systemMeanieMan said:
yeah, but we arent talking about graphics work here = we're talking about gaming and this "XGP" crap. i have already been corrected on teh AGP 1x thing, BTWshaihulud said:
the 266mbs was referring to my theory that it was in fact two indepedent PCI busses going into that XGP slot (in fact, im not sure an AGP8x card would like being run at 33mhz - something else to think about...) - i know that regular PCI is 133. i also know about the less traces, being cheaper, ect ect - but that wasnt the topic of this conversation. sorry about teh abbriviation confusion - ive been doing alot of networking talk lately and got my appriviations mixed up
yes i am familiar with ethernet - my point was that the bandwidth going to those slots on the PCIe bus are not shared with other slots on the board - each slot gets its own bandwidth while teh bandwidth that the chipset can provide is limited to the number of lanes it supports, no?
yeah, but not mainstream PCI - which is what i think he was getting at. we're talking about mainstream parts here, not server.
yeah - but PCIe is freeing up much from the PCI days, and we really arent going to feel a big hurt from saturating the bus for a long while.
then get something that will fully support your stuff, or sell your stuff and get something of an equal performance level for a small invetment. XGP is not worth its cost in plastic. of course, if you are still running a 440MX (UGH!) itll work - but the majority of people wanting to upgrade to PCIe have higher end cards, and the simple fact that boards still exist wtih AGP and all teh support for the latest processors - while keeping in mind that PCIe does absolutly nothing for games right now - i think the descision is quite simple. it was for me, i had an AGP 6800GT. i didnt want to sell it and go through all that hassle, so i got a neo2. very happy wtih it.pstang said:
pstang said:
pstang said:
i know what the post subject is, and we are talking about graphic work. it does not matter if it is computer aided design or games, it is graphic work. which is all relative to the interfaces that is used.
this is disconcerting-as you have pointed out teh-you can do all you want, but there is a difference to mbs and MBs.
i would not speculate, i would consult documentation on the core logic, if any.
correct, it is not shared with other devices "on the pci bus," as i have said. however, at the pci express switch there is contention. in other words, there is always a bottleneck somewhere.
mainstream is enterprise! not us home end users.
it is, from the device to the pci switch, but from switch and up it does not and is close to saturation. some pci express graphics (peg) are even placed in a physically different level of the core logic (q.v via's flex pci express http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/chipsets/flex-express/ )this is why hyper transport is such an awesome complementary technology. you should also note the bandwith that is is needed for the devices! as i said, contention is everywhere on the computer.
i havent been able to find any, linkage?