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X800 using SM3.0 path in FarCry ?

@

@trapine

Gawd
Joined
Mar 2, 2003
Messages
775
After all of the hoopla that was being spread about how 6800 was gonna own when Farcrys 1.2 patch comes out and its shadermodel 3 is utilized.It looks like ATI and X800 is actually the big winner in the patch in the form of Shader model2.0b :eek:
They have got an intresting disscusion going on over at Beyond3D.Things just get more confusing all the time :confused:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14294

Warning no Doom3 Discusions We have 700 of them already ;)
 
Ah, so something else that ATi can "kind of" do. Reminds me of a certain thing called trilinear filtering...

I'll stick with my 6800 and take the REAL thing.
 
ffs can you children stop bashing each other
Click to expand...

:rolleyes: Can you please reread the thread topic and if you have nothing ontopic to post then no need to reply pretty damed simple isnt it? ;)
 
@trapine said:
:rolleyes: Can you please reread the thread topic and if you have nothing ontopic to post then no need to reply pretty damed simple isnt it? ;)
Click to expand...
that reply is on topic of the thread

children bashing each other
another person asking them to stop


whats off topic? :confused:
 
No they don't. You'll find out that these SM3.0 optimizations are really SM2.0 enchancements. SM2.0b is different.
 
I think you guys need to read some of the posts concerning this link on other forums. It will give you a better look on what ACTUALLY is going on here.

We will also have to wait till some other sites start finding these results because not everything that comes out of the Soviet Union is accurate lol. The 1.2 patch is still beta as well.

And as you can see from the front page it doesn't run worth a crap on alot of ATI cards. Everything from game crashes to missing textures.

FarCry 1.2 Patch Issues II:
In today’s second edition we talked about a number of ATi video card owners having issues after installing the FarCry 1.2 patch. Most people are reporting the game crashing to desktop when playing single or multi player games. As you know, this morning UbiSoft said they were aware of the issue and were working on identifying the problem. I just got off the phone with UbiSoft again at which time they told me that I should uninstall the game completely and then reinstall it to make the problem go away. So those of you who are having issues, try this out and then let me know if it works...I can't imagine how this would help, but give it a try.
Click to expand...

Here are a couple of the threads talking about this link.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=32754

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=32724

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33770947&page=1

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=329388#329388

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=330142#330142

ChrisRay said:
Well the lighting model is a 4 lights in one pass with static branching. Which exceeds the instruction Limits of the r300, 9700/9800) But the Nv3x and the X800 have 512 instruction limit and could be able to do this lighting system in

SM2.0A or SM2.0B, Which both have that 512 instruction limit.
Click to expand...

ChrisRay said:
Entirely dependent on whats being done. Keep in mind that SM 3.0 is "still" SM 3.0. Its compiled down in a SM 3.0 profile. Some shaders use 8 interpolators. Which isnt 2.0 compatible.

But I do agree with the factI dont believe the Far Cry 4 lights per pass optimisation is very indicative of what SM 3.0/2.0 is capable of. Since both can do it in a single pass.

But there are far more interesting things about SM 3.0. Most of those things happen to revolve around Nvidias Vertex Shader 3.0.
Click to expand...

Demirug said:
Dave, some of the pixel shaders need more than 8 float inputs from the vertexshader. This is not possible with 2.A/2.B. But you are right that it is possible with pack/unpack you can save some input register to make the shader fit in the 2.A/2.B limit.

The big problem with PS 2.0 ist the instruction limit. 64 arithmetic slots are not enough. IIRC it should be possible to fit every shader in 2 passes but many shaders will even fit in 1 pass. I am not sure if 3 lights will allways work with one pass but 2 lights should fine.

I am not sure why crytek did not implement the new lighting model for SM 2.X. I need only some hours to get it work on a GF FX. SM 2.0 is more complicated but I am believe that I close.
Click to expand...

There are alot of other important points made in those threads. Read through all of them and ignore the fanboy drivle, especially the Rage3D thread lmao. Just a bunch of ATI fanboys jerking each other off and posting a bunch of inaccurate information like how powerful the X800's are in the HL2 beta leak.

You know how you guys were slamming someone earlier here on Hard because of how they were saying the leak showed the 6800's and X800's to perform on par with one another? Well at Rage3D they think the HL2 leak is a sign that the X800's will perform better in the final release :p.

The Beyond3D posts will give you the most insight.

And lets not forget HDR which will be supported soley by the 6800's. If you have seen the HDR demo then you probably know i'd rather have HDR then a few more fps if this 2.0b path holds true and the 6800's aren't able to exploit the same path or SM 3.0 in another fashion for Far Cry.

FiringSquad: One new feature NVIDIA has added to GeForce 6800 is support for HDR. How does NVIDIA’s solution differ from ATI’s?

Cevat Yerli: It’s more about the FP16 versus FP32 format. We’re using it [FP32] for HDR, which is not supported by ATI. That is to deliver very high image quality. But, I have to tell you HDR isn’t officially going to be part of the 1.2 patch.

FiringSquad: Do you plan on adding high dynamic range lighting (HDR) in the future?

Cevat Yerli: Yes definitely. It’s going to be officially supported in 1.3. Which will be coming out hopefully soon. [laughs] The reason why it’s not enabled now is because there are quality issues we have to check, we have to go back and look at it because it's a content-specific application. The technology works but it requires the content to be adapted to it, otherwise you have overexposure, you have too many objects on the screen glowing and things like that. And while that looks cool on screenshots, when you’re playing that’s not as cool. So we need to tweak it and make sure it matches the content.

FiringSquad: So that’s what you guys are playing with right now, just tweaking it until it looks just right?

Cevat Yerli: Yes but we couldn’t do it in such a short amount of time, so we plan to launch it in the next patch. What will be part of patch 1.2 will be the performance gains.

FiringSquad: So basically your requirement for HDR is FP32?

Cevat Yerli: Yes FP32 blending.
Click to expand...
 
burningrave101 said:
I think you guys need to read some of the posts concerning this link on other forums. It will give you a better look on what ACTUALLY is going on here.

We will also have to wait till some other sites start finding these results because not everything that comes out of the Soviet Union is accurate lol. The 1.2 patch is still beta as well.

And as you can see from the front page it doesn't run worth a crap on alot of ATI cards. Everything from game crashes to missing textures.



Here are a couple of the threads talking about this link.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=32754

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=32724

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33770947&page=1

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=329388#329388

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=330142#330142







There are alot of other important points made in those threads. Read through all of them and ignore the fanboy drivle, especially the Rage3D thread lmao. Just a bunch of ATI fanboys jerking each other off and posting a bunch of inaccurate information like how powerful the X800's are in the HL2 beta leak.

You know how you guys were slamming someone earlier here on Hard because of how they were saying the leak showed the 6800's and X800's to perform on par with one another? Well at Rage3D they think the HL2 leak is a sign that the X800's will perform better in the final release :p.

The Beyond3D posts will give you the most insight.

And lets not forget HDR which will be supported soley by the 6800's. If you have seen the HDR demo then you probably know i'd rather have HDR then a few more fps if this 2.0b path holds true and the 6800's aren't able to exploit the same path or SM 3.0 in another fashion for Far Cry.
Click to expand...

If you post one more thing about HDR in FarCry I am going to scream. Not only can't you use AA with HDR, but HDR looks like ass and way overdone in FarCry. This may come to a surprise to you, but a lot of people don't like HDR in FarCry. You don't need to remind us about HDR, we just don't care. It's like you post the samething in every damn thread. Also, if you read the front news page you would have known to fix the ATi problems one simply just needs to reinstall the game. I'm sorry to tell you but ATi has the best performance in FarCry while having the same exact IQ as Nvidia. But I doubt you will ever agree, oh well...
 
Moofasa~ said:
If you post one more thing about HDR in FarCry I am going to scream. Not only can't you use AA with HDR, but HDR looks like ass and way overdone in FarCry. This may come to a surprise to you, but a lot of people don't like HDR in FarCry. You don't need to remind us about HDR, we just don't care. It's like you post the samething in every damn thread. Also, if you read the front news page you would have known to fix the ATi problems one simply just needs to reinstall the game. I'm sorry to tell you but ATi has the best performance in FarCry while having the same exact IQ as Nvidia. But I doubt you will ever agree, oh well...
Click to expand...

You've seen HDR in Far Cry? lol When? I'm taking it that you've actually seen it since you say you dont like HDR in Far Cry. I'd say HDR looked like ass too if my card didn't support it.

And regarding that fix for Far Cry....

I just got off the phone with UbiSoft again at which time they told me that I should uninstall the game completely and then reinstall it to make the problem go away. So those of you who are having issues, try this out and then let me know if it works...I can't imagine how this would help, but give it a try.
Click to expand...

Has there been confirmation of this fixing all the issues?
 
Moofasa~ said:
If you post one more thing about HDR in FarCry I am going to scream. Not only can't you use AA with HDR, but HDR looks like ass and way overdone in FarCry. This may come to a surprise to you, but a lot of people don't like HDR in FarCry. You don't need to remind us about HDR, we just don't care. It's like you post the samething in every damn thread. Also, if you read the front news page you would have known to fix the ATi problems one simply just needs to reinstall the game. I'm sorry to tell you but ATi has the best performance in FarCry while having the same exact IQ as Nvidia. But I doubt you will ever agree, oh well...
Click to expand...

Only screens of HDR that I have seen have been some beta shots where someone was messing with the settings. But it did seem to have potential to add realism. Let's wait until we get the real implementation into our hands before we down it, ok? Some people don't want HDR, some do, but I bet you can guess which ones do and which don't.
 
creedAMD said:
Only screens of HDR that I have seen have been some beta shots where someone was messing with the settings. But it did seem to have potential to add realism. Let's wait until we get the real implementation into our hands before we down it, ok? Some people don't want HDR, some do, but I bet you can guess which ones do and which don't.
Click to expand...

You can increase the intensity of HDR through the console. Those screenshots turned it way up so you could definitely see it in the pics. It will be different in-game.
 
Moofasa~ said:
If you post one more thing about HDR in FarCry I am going to scream. Not only can't you use AA with HDR, but HDR looks like ass and way overdone in FarCry. This may come to a surprise to you, but a lot of people don't like HDR in FarCry. You don't need to remind us about HDR, we just don't care. It's like you post the samething in every damn thread. Also, if you read the front news page you would have known to fix the ATi problems one simply just needs to reinstall the game. I'm sorry to tell you but ATi has the best performance in FarCry while having the same exact IQ as Nvidia. But I doubt you will ever agree, oh well...
Click to expand...

Well I think HDR is gonna be pretty cool in FarCry. Yeah ATi has great Farcry performance, everyone agrees with you. And yeah reinstalling is supposed to fix it, but everyone who has something besides an ATi card isn't reinstalling the game trying to get it to work right now, they are actually playing the game. Even if the problem is fixable it shouldn't have been there in the first place. It's probably CryTek's fault, but it still makes being an ATi user suck a little bit right now.

As a general rule, if you find yourself trying to speak for everyone else you are probably going to be wrong. Not in all cases obviously, but definitely in this one.
 
Wow, so you can hack FarCry to get unstable play on ATI cards with major graphical glitches with the new shaders.... But at least you can pretend you're using sm3.0! Sounds great! ;)

Maybe with the 1.3 patch someone will come up with a wrapper that jacks up the contrast and lowers the brightness and ATI owners can have pretend HDR too :D
 
There are alot of other important points made in those threads. Read through all of them and ignore the fanboy drivle, especially the Rage3D thread lmao. Just a bunch of ATI fanboys jerking each other off and posting a bunch of inaccurate information like how powerful the X800's are in the HL2 beta leak.
Click to expand...

Wow you weren't kidding. I feel unclean after reading that thread.

Either way it's the same thing. The XT-PE is a little faster...so what...you still can't buy the damned thing.

If the Ultra and XT-PE were available in mass quantities then I might consider the XT-PE, since it IS fast as hell. But neither is available, so it all comes down the the GT and the Pro.

This changes nothing, the GT is still the card to have.
 
The 6800 is the card to have for FarCry. You will be missing out on major eye candy with the X800 in the 1.3 patch. I don't buy a $400-$500 card just to miss out on major eye candy like HDR Lighting, which will be incredible once tweaked.

Plus, lets use common sense here. There are probably some major graphical issues attempting to run the new shaders on x800 cards. If a Russian website could do it, obvious CryTek could do it too.
 
@trapine said:
Looks like its doing a pretty damed impressive job getting an extra 18FPS from running SM2.0b ;) I hardly call that kinda doing?
http://www.ixbt.com/video2/images/fc12/pic3.png

And it actually tanks Nvidias SM3 while its at it :p

http://www.ixbt.com/video2/images/fc12/pic2.png
Click to expand...


Now I hate to try and stir up the pot, but am I the only one who noticed that out of these 4 benchmarks, 2 are won by the x800 and 2 are won by the 6800?

The wins on the x800 are more dramatic, yes, but lets atleast acknowledge that the x800 isn't always coming out on top in these benchmarks.
 
The way I understand it is that the x800 is pixel and vertex 2.0+, the + part standing for longer shader support than the baseline 2.0, but not quite 3.0.

I remember reading somewhere than ATi stopped right at 65,420 instructions or length on one item, when all they would have needed to to was have 65536 to meet PVS 3.0 for that particular spec. It seemed totally intentional to me, as if they were leaving the spec so the next chipset could officially have it, but having almost 99 percent of the ability anyways (marketing idea maybe, they did not want to overhype the X800?) So maybe on the scale of shaders, if you were to make an imaginary PVS (which would not be a good idea, but you get the idea) the X800 could be like Pixel and vertex shader 2.9?
 
ZenOps said:
I remember reading somewhere than ATi stopped right at 65,420 instructions or length on one item, when all they would have needed to to was have 65536 to meet PVS 3.0 for that particular spec. It seemed totally intentional to me, as if they were leaving the spec so the next chipset could officially have it, but having almost 99 percent of the ability anyways (marketing idea maybe, they did not want to overhype the X800?) So maybe on the scale of shaders, if you were to make an imaginary PVS (which would not be a good idea, but you get the idea) the X800 could be like Pixel and vertex shader 2.9?
Click to expand...

The X800 isn't even close to SM3.0 specs.
 
Please clarify with backup, I know that ATi is just under 3.0 specs in the vast majority of categories that matter.

The main limitation ATi cannot do is infinite loops though the pipes, which IMO if you are looping through more than a dozen times, you have to have the bloatiest code on the planet and you should not be making games to start with.
 
tranCendenZ said:
Wow, so you can hack FarCry to get unstable play on ATI cards with major graphical glitches with the new shaders.... But at least you can pretend you're using sm3.0! Sounds great! ;)

Maybe with the 1.3 patch someone will come up with a wrapper that jacks up the contrast and lowers the brightness and ATI owners can have pretend HDR too :D
Click to expand...


hey shaddup i'm an x800 owner untiL I sell mine on ebay :(. I don't trust it though but I don't know anyone else who will buy it. I fucking hate ATI drivers, I thought it would be nice to try it but now that I do I am NOT having an enjoyable experience. The drivers are bugged to hell even when they do happen to run okay I get this annoying gamma reset bug that plagues me and is annoying to no end. Bah screw you ATI. I can't stand this x800.

I will probably sell it after I beat doom since it is kind of playable on this card. The opengl performance is a sheer disappointment. Sad... This card just gets worse and worse. :mad:
 
ZenOps said:
Please clarify with backup, I know that ATi is just under 3.0 specs in the vast majority of categories that matter.

The main limitation ATi cannot do is infinite loops though the pipes, which IMO if you are looping through more than a dozen times, you have to have the bloatiest code on the planet and you should not be making games to start with.
Click to expand...

Heh ok according to the specs of 2.0b versus 3.0, here is where 2.0b is deficient
These are the real specs, not BS

Dependent Texture Limit
2.0b = 4
3.0 = No Limit

Position Register
2.0b = none
3.0 = Yes

Executed Instructions
2.0b = 512
3.0 = 65536

Interpolated Registers
2.0b = 2+8
3.0 = 10

Intstruction Predication
2.0b = none
3.0 = Yes

Indexed Input Registers
2.0b = none
3.0 = yes

Constant Registers
2.0b = 32
3.0 = 224

Arbitrary Swizzling
2.0b = none
3.0 = yes

Gradient Instructions
2.0b = none
3.0 = yes

Loop Count Register
2.0b = none
3.0 = yes

Face Register (2-sided lighting)
2.0b = none
3.0 = yes

Dynamic Flow Control Depth
2.0b = none
3.0 = 24

Minimum Shader Precision
2.0b = FP24 (96-bit)
3.0 = FP32 (128-bit)

And that is how the x800 isn't even close to 3.0 :) The only place 2.0b can match 3.0 is in texture instruction limit and temp registers, everywhere else it is lacking completely or falls short.
 
Now that Crytek has recalled the 1.2 patch, i bet the performance results are totally different in the next one they release lol.

There are rumors that ATI payed Crytek in the excess of $500,000 to hold off on the patch and implement new ATI features.

tranCendenZ said:
Wow, so you can hack FarCry to get unstable play on ATI cards with major graphical glitches with the new shaders.... But at least you can pretend you're using sm3.0! Sounds great! ;)

Maybe with the 1.3 patch someone will come up with a wrapper that jacks up the contrast and lowers the brightness and ATI owners can have pretend HDR too :D
Click to expand...

ROFL!!!
 
Yup, recalled patch... Oh well, guess it doesn't make much difference with Doom3 showing up anyways.

Who said the X800 was PVS 2.0b? As far as I know, it meets all the minimums for at least 2.0 and probably 2.0b and more (its just useful to use as a base platform) Like I mention, I'm pretty sure the X800 can do 64240 exected instructions, many of the other abilities seem to be there too, just slightly under 3.0

Honestly, I think SM 3.0 should have really been called 2.0c or 2.1 (there is not that much of a difference) Just like the corresponding DX is 9.0b to 9.0c

PS: When PVS 4.0 is released next year, probably along with the R500 and NV50, I think it should be named PVS 2.2. Its really bad for marketing, but thats more of what its like.
 
ZenOps said:
PS: When PVS 4.0 is released next year, probably along with the R500 and NV50, I think it should be named PVS 2.2. Its really bad for marketing, but thats more of what its like.
Click to expand...

Are you sure it will be next year? I'm hearing people say it wont be until the R600 and NV60 cores when Longhorn is released. That would probably mean a 2 year wait and that would mean SM 3.0 is going to be used alot more until then.
 
Now I hate to try and stir up the pot, but am I the only one who noticed that out of these 4 benchmarks, 2 are won by the x800 and 2 are won by the 6800?

The wins on the x800 are more dramatic, yes, but lets atleast acknowledge that the x800 isn't always coming out on top in these benchmarks
Click to expand...

The reason i brought this up, Is only last week people like burningrave and co were going on about how SM3 was gonna Rip the X800 a newone when patch 1.2 gets realised.But It looks quite the other way around.And one point to think about is other games are implimenting SM3 so will these also be a trend for these games?Now if 3Dc is then implimented and speeds things up more then the 6800 is gonna be the one getting owned.Not in doom3 of course :pTheres still plent of bite left in the X800 yet.And i think all this call about them getting stomped is pretty premature!
 
burningrave101 said:
Are you sure it will be next year? I'm hearing people say it wont be until the R600 and NV60 cores when Longhorn is released. That would probably mean a 2 year wait and that would mean SM 3.0 is going to be used alot more until then.
Click to expand...

yeah it will probably be part of DX10
 
Moofasa~ said:
Not only can't you use AA with HDR, but HDR looks like ass and way overdone in FarCry. This may come to a surprise to you, but a lot of people don't like HDR in FarCry. You don't need to remind us about HDR, we just don't care.
Click to expand...


That's an opinion about you thinking it "looks like ass" and of course you don't care about HDR in Far Cry because your card can't do it regardless. Might as well flame it since you can't use it :D
 
That's an opinion about you thinking it "looks like ass" and of course you don't care about HDR in Far Cry because your card can't do it regardless. Might as well flame it since you can't use it
Click to expand...

Yet another thing Nvidia tells you your card will be able to do in FarCry. But when like SM3 :p Next century?This game will have been thrashed an forgotten by the time we see any HDR :And for most other games ATI has HDR lighting support ;)
 
@trapine said:
Yet another thing Nvidia tells you your card will be able to do in FarCry. But when like SM3 :p Next century?This game will have been thrashed an forgotten by the time we see any HDR :And for most other games ATI has HDR lighting support ;)
Click to expand...

Personally I think buying a card that will get better as time goes on and newer features are taken advantage of is kind of cool.
 
If ATI can get performence increase using sm2.0b. Then there is no reason that Nvidia can not get the same boost from this. As far as I know SM2.0b is a reach to to try to get to SM3.0 as close as possible. As people are saying the 6800 can handle x amount of instructions and X800 can do [x (MINUS) whatever] amoung of instructions then there is no reason that the 6800 can not get a boost from this as well.
 
there is no reason that the 6800 can not get a boost from this as well.
Click to expand...

The 6800's do infact get a boost.But just no where near the Hyped 20%boost that some people were trying to say SM3 would bring?But SM2.0B with i think 3Dc utilized got one hell of a jump?
 
There might be something else going on.
SM 2.0b is suppose to do the things that SM 3.0 can do. How can it give a bigger boost than SM3.0?
 
3Dc should not give a significant performance boost. It only deals with textures which really aren't the chokehold of this generation's performance. I will be surprised if it gives more than a 1 or 2 fps gain, but it should increase IQ, ever so little but some.
 
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