X-FI: Headphone surround emulation..

[hek1]

Does this only work in certain games? is it something you choose like EAX or is it like a mode that works with whatever you do on the comp?

 

[Chastity]

It works with any multichannel source, be it game or otherwise. To set it up, have Windows configured for 5.1, and the Creative Speaker Settings set to Headphones, and have CMSS-3D enabled. Games will get the speaker settings from Windows, and output 5.1 audio, and then CMSS-3D will virtualize it. (Make sure you have "Sync with Windows" disabled)

 

[_Durandal_]

Interesting. I have a friend who uses headphones with the X-Fi and he hates CMSS3D. According to him, it makes it very difficult to discern where sounds are coming from. For example, in BF2, sometimes he says it sounds like the guy is behind him when in fact he's actually to the left or right of him.

Would turning off "Sync with Windows Control Panel" make a difference (as you suggested)? Oh, and why would that make a difference. If you could explain it I would really appreciate it. I'm still learning all the features of this soundcard .

 

[hek1]

Can somebody confirm this works in games like cstrike 1.6 without support for 5.1 speaker mode?

 

[Chastity]

If you are Sync'd, then when you switch to headphones, the game will too, and only output stereo. YOu need to the 5.1 output to get the best simulation.

 

[hek1]

so having set 5.1 in sound options in windows + sync, it will work alright EVEN tho the game doesnt have an option for 5.1?

 

[_Durandal_]

If you are Sync'd, then when you switch to headphones, the game will too, and only output stereo. YOu need to the 5.1 output to get the best simulation.

Ok, so just to clarify...

He needs to set Windows to say 5.1 speakers (even though he only has headphones) and set the Creative Labs mixer to headphones with CMSS3D. This will force emulation over the headphones and make it sound like 5.1 surround?

I hope I read that right. Thanks again, I'll wait to hear back from ya! Oh, and Happy New Year early !

 

[Chastity]

Correctamundo!

 

[Firecrotch]

Wait when you say turn off the sync with windows is that the "sync with control panel" option?

 

[hek1]

Wait when you say turn off the sync with windows is that the "sync with control panel" option?

yes

 

[hek1]

Thanks for the help guys

 

[bitgod]

Crikey, I didn't know about the telling windows you're using 5.1 part, pfft. Guess I'll have to try it.

That reminds me, I think someone asked this once, but I wasn't paying attention. If I have it faking the surround in headphones, will it do that to audio that I pipe into the panel and have it come back out the headphones? My old DVD player had a nice fake surround on it, but I've since replaced that with an Oppo upconverting DVD player. Sometimes I like using headphones, and had a weird thought about outputting the audio into the xfi and have the xfi fake the surround in the headphones.

 

[Chastity]

Yep.

 

[thomase]

If you are Sync'd, then when you switch to headphones, the game will too, and only output stereo. YOu need to the 5.1 output to get the best simulation.

Hate to confuse things further, but this is not entirely true.

If the game is DirectSound3D or OpenAL, the Creative speaker setting is used. You don't have to configure the game to output 5.1. If you select Headphones in the Creative setting you will be fine. If the game also has a speaker settings, it is only there as an interface to change the Windows speaker setting, which if not synched to the Creative settings, will have no effect because it doesn't actually change the Creative settings.

Now, if the game does not use hardware 3D audio (DirectSound3D or OpenAL), things are different. In this case (HL2 and the original Doom 3 are the only examples I know of), you must unsych the speaker settings, configure the game to output 5.1, and configure the Creative settings for Headphones.

 

[hek1]

Hate to confuse things further, but this is not entirely true.

If the game is DirectSound3D or OpenAL, the Creative speaker setting is used. You don't have to configure the game to output 5.1. If you select Headphones in the Creative setting you will be fine. If the game also has a speaker settings, it is only there as an interface to change the Windows speaker setting, which if not synched to the Creative settings, will have no effect because it doesn't actually change the Creative settings.

Now, if the game does not use hardware 3D audio (DirectSound3D or OpenAL), things are different. In this case (HL2 and the original Doom 3 are the only examples I know of), you must unsych the speaker settings, configure the game to output 5.1, and configure the Creative settings for Headphones.

thats pretty clear to me. Thanks

 

[0V3RC10CK3D]

Interesting. I have a friend who uses headphones with the X-Fi and he hates CMSS3D. According to him, it makes it very difficult to discern where sounds are coming from. For example, in BF2, sometimes he says it sounds like the guy is behind him when in fact he's actually to the left or right of him.

Would turning off "Sync with Windows Control Panel" make a difference (as you suggested)? Oh, and why would that make a difference. If you could explain it I would really appreciate it. I'm still learning all the features of this soundcard .

If you have quality headphones, then CMSS3D and the 24-bit crystalizer and all the junk makes stuff worse, the selling point of the card is that it makes underbudget hardware supposidly sound better, but if you have some quality headphones like the HD-555's or higher from sennheiser or the like then it makes it sound much much worse

 

[Nomikal]

let me try this.

 

[Malignant Kid]

If you have quality headphones, then CMSS3D and the 24-bit crystalizer and all the junk makes stuff worse, the selling point of the card is that it makes underbudget hardware supposidly sound better, but if you have some quality headphones like the HD-555's or higher from sennheiser or the like then it makes it sound much much worse

I don't quite understand that. I've trolled the headfi forums and I haven't read that opinion before. Is this based from personal experience? I just got a set of DT-770's and I will be buying a X-FI for my rig I'm building. But if this is the case I could put more money into my video cards...

 

[bitgod]

Some people say it's crap, some love it. Basically, use what sounds good to you. I like the crystalizer from my 2.1 and my Senns, but I don't like the surround sound in the headphones, not when listening to music anyway, makes it too muddled for me. But I use it in game mode. Thank god this saves the settings for all the variations. Guess I'll have to pop in a DVD into my system and try out the sound in the headphones.

 

[dderidex]

Some people say it's crap, some love it. Basically, use what sounds good to you. I like the crystalizer from my 2.1 and my Senns, but I don't like the surround sound in the headphones, not when listening to music anyway, makes it too muddled for me. But I use it in game mode. Thank god this saves the settings for all the variations. Guess I'll have to pop in a DVD into my system and try out the sound in the headphones.

It's important to note the things you use the card FOR. And that CMSS does two things - it virtualizes a stereo source to surround output, and it can virtualize a surround source to headphone output.

Music is stereo, you'll recall. Stereo is stereo, period. You don't *want* to virtualize a surround-sound environment with music, as you are distorting the original source in doing so. So the stereo -> surround feature of CMSS is bad. Ditto the '24-bit crapilizer'. Again, you are distorting the original source. This is Always A Bad Thing (tm) for music.

For *games*, on the other hand - you've got a surround-sound source, and virtualizing THAT to a headphone output (surround -> headphone) actually works very good, and can do a TERRIFIC job of approximating a field of sound surrounding you. This is A Good Thing.

Personally, I don't find the 24-bit chunkilizer any use at all.

 

[Worminater]

just going to say thankyou for this post. Unsynching actually made a noticeable difference in CSS for me; well worth the reboot required. As for the usefulness of the 24bit crapalizer, if your listening to crap it improves it; but when listening to flac or decent 192kbps mp3 it doesnt improve it at all. Its a nice feature to have if you have some crappy rips you dont have access to reripping or getting in higher quality easily. not a deal breaker on buying though by any means (cmss3d justifies purchase imo though, at least in my position)

 

[Chastity]

Music is stereo, you'll recall. Stereo is stereo, period. You don't *want* to virtualize a surround-sound environment with music, as you are distorting the original source in doing so.

Mirroring the fronts to rears, and having a blended center doesn't destroy the stereo imaging, and overall can be quite enjoyable. This is what CMSS-3D "Surround" does, esp at the 50% setting.

Again, you are distorting the original source. This is Always A Bad Thing (tm) for music.

By that token, then using a tube preamp is bad, since you are distorting the original source.

 

[Chastity]

just going to say thankyou for this post. Unsynching actually made a noticeable difference in CSS for me; well worth the reboot required.

You're very welcome. Have fun slaughtering someone online for me!

 

[thomase]

just going to say thankyou for this post. Unsynching actually made a noticeable difference in CSS for me

Check out this thread for a more detailed discussion of using CMSS3D-Headphone with HL2.

 

[dderidex]

If you are Sync'd, then when you switch to headphones, the game will too, and only output stereo. YOu need to the 5.1 output to get the best simulation.

Thinking about that some....why 5.1? Wouldn't "quadraphonic" (4.0) in the Windows control panel provide an easier 'source' to virtualize from?

Or, if it can take any kind of surround environment to process down to headphones...would adding *more* speakers to the 'source' that CMSS is working from help? (IE., using the "7.1 Home Theater Speakers" option?)

Thoughts?

EDIT: Indeed, this entire thread appears to maintain that ANYTHING other than quadraphonic - 5.1 or up - does not have functioning HRTF. I, personally, find this very difficult to believe as the positional audio *definitely* works in headphone mode....but it certainly opens up questions regarding the topic.

 

[bitgod]

just going to say thankyou for this post. Unsynching actually made a noticeable difference in CSS for me; well worth the reboot required. As for the usefulness of the 24bit crapalizer, if your listening to crap it improves it; but when listening to flac or decent 192kbps mp3 it doesnt improve it at all. Its a nice feature to have if you have some crappy rips you dont have access to reripping or getting in higher quality easily. not a deal breaker on buying though by any means (cmss3d justifies purchase imo though, at least in my position)

Actually, that's maybe why I like the crystalizer, more than anything I'm listening to XFM streaming off the net.

 

[thomase]

Thinking about that some....why 5.1? Wouldn't "quadraphonic" (4.0) in the Windows control panel provide an easier 'source' to virtualize from?

Or, if it can take any kind of surround environment to process down to headphones...would adding *more* speakers to the 'source' that CMSS is working from help? (IE., using the "7.1 Home Theater Speakers" option?)

These issues only apply for games which do not use OpenAL/DirectSound3D. When Headphones are selected for an OpenAL/DirectSound3D game, you'll get virtual positioning from ALL directions, including above and below if ElevationFilter is on.

Furthermore, the only game that I that I routinely play that DOESN'T use OpenAL/DirectSound3D is HL2, at least not in a way that positions sources from ALL directions. HL2 never will use more than 5/5.1 discrete positions, even when 7.1 is selected. When 7.1 is selected, DirectSound3D is used to "upmix" 5 to 7 channels. The point is, at least in the case of HL2, the 5.1/7.1 question is moot.

EDIT: Indeed, this entire thread appears to maintain that ANYTHING other than quadraphonic - 5.1 or up - does not have functioning HRTF. I, personally, find this very difficult to believe as the positional audio *definitely* works in headphone mode....but it certainly opens up questions regarding the topic.

That is not what that thread is about. The same technology that is used to virtualize surround for headphones is used to virtualize surround for 2 speaker or 4 speaker setups. The issue talked about in that thread is that the technology is NOT used for 5.1 or higher setups.

I can't count the number of times I've gone through this time and time again on this board. Maybe I should collect my previous posts and make some kind of sticky thread about CMSS3D on the X-Fi.

In summary:

N-channel = sound source outputs N discrete channels
3D audio = Each sound sample has a set of 3D coordinates. No channel/speaker is specified. The X-Fi maps this 3D sound to headphones, 2, or 4 speakers using HRTF, OR to 5.1 or greater using multi-channel panning (no ElevationFilter or MacroFX).

CMSS3D-Headphone = virtualize multi-channel or 3D audio for headphones (uses HRTF)
CMSS3D-Virtual = virtualize mutli-channel for 2-speaker OR 3D audio for 2-speaker AND 4-speaker (uses HRTF with crosstalk cancelation)
CMSS3D-Surround = "upmix" 2-channel to 4, 5, and 7 speakers

 

[dderidex]

Alright, well, the question is - what is the best way to configure the control panel(s) then?

I have them unsynched at the moment, and had always set the X-Fi to 'Headphone' when using headphones, and simply left the control panel set to 5.1.

From my understanding of what you are saying, that's what you should do with HL2 - and no other games care, since they see the X-Fi's headphone mode and properly position everything in 3d space?

What about DVDs, then? I'm using nVidia's Purevideo decoder, and do not have any speaker configuration set in the DVD-watching application...instead just set to use "S/PDIF output" to "A receiver". Which the X-Fi intercepts, of course, and decodes itself. What I've been doing is using the X-Fi in headphone mode (with the CMSS-Headphone enabled) and setting the movie's options to use 5.1 when available. This sound right?

 

[thomase]

Alright, well, the question is - what is the best way to configure the control panel(s) then?

I have them unsynched at the moment, and had always set the X-Fi to 'Headphone' when using headphones, and simply left the control panel set to 5.1.

From my understanding of what you are saying, that's what you should do with HL2 - and no other games care, since they see the X-Fi's headphone mode and properly position everything in 3d space?

Yup. I would qualify that by saying that we are talking mostly about FPS-type games. Obviously, RTS or other non-3D games may be a different situation.

What about DVDs, then? I'm using nVidia's Purevideo decoder, and do not have any speaker configuration set in the DVD-watching application...instead just set to use "S/PDIF output" to "A receiver". Which the X-Fi intercepts, of course, and decodes itself. What I've been doing is using the X-Fi in headphone mode (with the CMSS-Headphone enabled) and setting the movie's options to use 5.1 when available. This sound right?

Not familiar with your particular application, but that seems right. Do whatever you have to do to get the app to output 5.1 channels. Then if you set the X-Fi to headphone mode, it will intercept that and virtualize it for headphones.

Note that with DVD movies, you might like the CMSS3D-Headphone effect better in Entertainment mode.

 

[dderidex]

Note that with DVD movies, you might like the CMSS3D-Headphone effect better in Entertainment mode.

LOL - now that's a point worth addressing.

None of the games I play supports EAX3 or better, so I've always just left the thing in 'Entertainment' mode all the time.

For others gaming in EAX3+...or in general...does the 'Gaming' mode CMSS3D-Headphone effect do much different from the 'Entertainment' mode? IE., is leaving it on 'Entertainment' all the time losing anything other than the advanced EAX versions?

 

[thomase]

LOL - now that's a point worth addressing.

None of the games I play supports EAX3 or better, so I've always just left the thing in 'Entertainment' mode all the time.

For others gaming in EAX3+...or in general...does the 'Gaming' mode CMSS3D-Headphone effect do much different from the 'Entertainment' mode? IE., is leaving it on 'Entertainment' all the time losing anything other than the advanced EAX versions?

You can only use ElevationFilter or MacroFX in Game mode.