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X-25m vs. C300
- Thread starter Seer37
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The C300 is the only SSD that I'd consider right now if I wanted to upgrade from my Intels, but it doesn't come cheap. The SandForce-based drives are nice, but I'm not convinced that they are that much better than the Intel drives and honestly after all of the Indilinx failures I'm hesitant to go with any non-Intel controller that doesn't have a proven track record.
You could also wait for the 3rd gen Intel drives coming out (supposedly) this Fall. They will be available in capacities greater than 160GB and by that time we'll get to see how the C300 fares in terms of long-term reliability. Not to mention it'll be cheaper. I say stick with your Intels for now unless you really have the upgrade itch; they are fantastic SSDs.
You could also wait for the 3rd gen Intel drives coming out (supposedly) this Fall. They will be available in capacities greater than 160GB and by that time we'll get to see how the C300 fares in terms of long-term reliability. Not to mention it'll be cheaper. I say stick with your Intels for now unless you really have the upgrade itch; they are fantastic SSDs.
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I'm not talking about the Intel firmware fiasco. I'm talking about the fact that I've seen way more reports of Indilinx drives randomly failing than Intel drives. It may have something to do with the 1.5 fw. Anyone that says they've seen more Intels fail hasn't done enough reading, or is just biased. There was a recent thread here that will support my argument, and a few other members such as sub.mesa have also questioned the reliability of the Indilinx drives...it's not just me.
Well i wouldn't want to call it a fiasco. It worked correctly, unless you set a BIOS password that also locks the drive apparently; which conflicted with TRIM. So they forgot one small part not used on 99.99% of all systems.
Still it is a firmware defect/bug/issue that can cause dataloss. And the fact that even Intel was affected shows that it can happen to other SSDs as well; especially the more complex SSD controllers. And Sandforce and Micron are certainly among this group.
Well, i do think an Indilinx/JMicron drive is more susceptible to firmware issues causing dataloss. But i don't have any factual data to support this; more like trust in Intel as they also serve business sector which requires stable and reliable products. Though i've been called an AMD fanboy in the past (when i argued the AMD was a much better buy in the area of Athlon XP vs P4+SDRAM), i generally feel Intel can't afford to rush their products and deliver a product that the end-user mistrusts.
Other than this trust, i read few about Intel SSD failures. Thought the recent thread in this forum also shows a user (Old Hippie) to fail two Intel SSDs. Though it may be caused by something outside of Intel's fault, it could also be that the SSDs available now are not as reliable as some of us - including me - think they are. Perhaps current products are vulnerable to voltage changes, more so than HDDs. Or obscure and yet undetected dataloss bricks only a small percentage of drivers over time, but not easy re-produceable and thus unnoticed/undetected/unsolved. Time will tell.
I would be very interested in statistics by large distributors that sell a couple hundred thousand Intel and Indilinx SSDs, and compare the RMA rate between the two. Unfortunately, these kind of statistics are very hard to get.
Either way, your data always shouldn't be in jeopardy. Backup everything you care about. There is no reason not to backup something given the low price per GB on high-capacity, low-rpm harddrives.
Why is it FUD? Are you saying there were no issues with the V1.5 firmware?
I don't own an Indilinx SSD myself, but i did scout forums and found most failed SSDs were either Indilinx or JMicron based, and many had to do with updating firmware; bricking the drive. Though i would personally never do such a thing without having a full backup, i do have much more trust in Intel.
That trust is not just FUD; Intel has proven that it had created a very advanced SSD controller; the first that uses NCQ to utilize multi channels to achieve high random I/O speeds (200MB/s+), good wear leveling, write remapping and very low write amplification in the right circumstances (enough free erase blocks). It is the only SSD fairly robust against misalignment (23% performance loss according to Anandtech), where Sandforce and Micron perform much worse when not properly aligned.
So all considering, we can say Intel has created a near-perfect controller very early in the game, and will continue to dominate for awhile, until better third party controller chips become available that can seriously rival Intel in both performance and reliability. The Sandforce and Micron controllers are still really in development; Intel has only needed to update their SSDs to add TRIM support; and the G1 was released quite some time ago.
It is also interesting to consider the Intel controller uses internal writeback buffers; while other SSDs use the external DRAM chip for this task. This is likely the reason Intel has such insanely low read/write access times (or: service times); as internal SRAM buffers are always faster than external DRAM chip.
The only real downsides of the Intel controller are low sequential write speeds (very high random write speeds however) and erase block fragmentation, an issue still under investigation by Intel, and likely to be addressed in future firmware/products.
I don't own an Indilinx SSD myself, but i did scout forums and found most failed SSDs were either Indilinx or JMicron based, and many had to do with updating firmware; bricking the drive. Though i would personally never do such a thing without having a full backup, i do have much more trust in Intel.
That trust is not just FUD; Intel has proven that it had created a very advanced SSD controller; the first that uses NCQ to utilize multi channels to achieve high random I/O speeds (200MB/s+), good wear leveling, write remapping and very low write amplification in the right circumstances (enough free erase blocks). It is the only SSD fairly robust against misalignment (23% performance loss according to Anandtech), where Sandforce and Micron perform much worse when not properly aligned.
So all considering, we can say Intel has created a near-perfect controller very early in the game, and will continue to dominate for awhile, until better third party controller chips become available that can seriously rival Intel in both performance and reliability. The Sandforce and Micron controllers are still really in development; Intel has only needed to update their SSDs to add TRIM support; and the G1 was released quite some time ago.
It is also interesting to consider the Intel controller uses internal writeback buffers; while other SSDs use the external DRAM chip for this task. This is likely the reason Intel has such insanely low read/write access times (or: service times); as internal SRAM buffers are always faster than external DRAM chip.
The only real downsides of the Intel controller are low sequential write speeds (very high random write speeds however) and erase block fragmentation, an issue still under investigation by Intel, and likely to be addressed in future firmware/products.
Adding to sub.mesa's points. I lost one of 5 Indilinx drives to the v1.5 fiasco and watched the drive fail making it less than FUD for me. Luckily, OCZ has pretty awesome support and I have enough storage lying around that it wasn't an issue. BTW, a lot of SSD manufacturers have issues with firmware. Marvell (C300), Indilinx, JMicron, and to some extent Intel all have had issues.
The plus side, of course, is that SSD's can get a lot of peformance from a firmware update.
The plus side, of course, is that SSD's can get a lot of peformance from a firmware update.
Old Hippie
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Let's try 3.......and I may have gotten two good ones this time!
there is a guy at another forum that had two x-25e's fail. in the same month! he is not happy LOL
i frequent OCZ as well, been hanging there forever it seems, and they have had issues, as all ssd makers have. this is a new and rapidly evolving tech. dont forget not even two months ago Aanandtech, one of the most respected SSD info sources out there, was cautioning people not ot buy c300 because of fatal firmware flaws on the original release! happens to everyone, and the bad thing is that when you judge by reading support forums,. it doesnt matter , they are SUPPORT forums, all you will read is bad news or problems LOL nothing of the millions of satisfied people. i can bet you money that iddilinx have sold at "least" 3 to 1 the amount that intel has because of more attractive price points (in the past)
moral of my rant:
it happens on all SSD, regardless of manufacturer, they all have a black eye in the past. this is a new and rapidly evolving tech, if you arent smart enough to back up, and tech savvy enough to stomach the issues and understand you are taking a risk, dont buy one.
i frequent OCZ as well, been hanging there forever it seems, and they have had issues, as all ssd makers have. this is a new and rapidly evolving tech. dont forget not even two months ago Aanandtech, one of the most respected SSD info sources out there, was cautioning people not ot buy c300 because of fatal firmware flaws on the original release! happens to everyone, and the bad thing is that when you judge by reading support forums,. it doesnt matter , they are SUPPORT forums, all you will read is bad news or problems LOL nothing of the millions of satisfied people. i can bet you money that iddilinx have sold at "least" 3 to 1 the amount that intel has because of more attractive price points (in the past)
moral of my rant:
it happens on all SSD, regardless of manufacturer, they all have a black eye in the past. this is a new and rapidly evolving tech, if you arent smart enough to back up, and tech savvy enough to stomach the issues and understand you are taking a risk, dont buy one.
Old Hippie
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I'll second this emotion and expand it to include all computer components regardless of some fanbois' opinions.
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Thank you, sub.mesa. Your posts are always relevant and informative, especially in threads whose topics concern data storage. I hoped Brahmzy's replies would contain more substance, but usually when someone resorts to name-calling the debate is dead anyway.
Like you pointed out, statistical data of this nature can be hard to obtain. I tend to make note of the drives that people are running in their sigs, and make it a point to read threads concerning SSDs to try to keep abreast of the recent developments and issues that arise. Reports of failures stand out, and though I can't say with certainty that the failure rate of Indilinx is n% higher than that of Intel, my own personal observation is that I have seen more mentions of Indilinx drives failing. There may be some merit to Computurd's theory of more failures due to more units sold, but again it is anyone's guess since we don't have hard data from the manufacturers. I would be very interested in seeing the actual failure rates of the various controllers, but figures like that would likely be extremely hard to obtain.
Rick, I'm not sure if that comment was directed at me but rest assured I am not a fanboy; I owned a Vertex 60GB and it performed without incident. I simply prefer Intel just like I tend to prefer nVidia but I will buy any product from any manufacturer as long as it satisfies my own personal requirements. Yes, most (if not all) SSDs have had problems in the past which isn't surprising considering the relative immaturity of the tech.
Like you pointed out, statistical data of this nature can be hard to obtain. I tend to make note of the drives that people are running in their sigs, and make it a point to read threads concerning SSDs to try to keep abreast of the recent developments and issues that arise. Reports of failures stand out, and though I can't say with certainty that the failure rate of Indilinx is n% higher than that of Intel, my own personal observation is that I have seen more mentions of Indilinx drives failing. There may be some merit to Computurd's theory of more failures due to more units sold, but again it is anyone's guess since we don't have hard data from the manufacturers. I would be very interested in seeing the actual failure rates of the various controllers, but figures like that would likely be extremely hard to obtain.
Rick, I'm not sure if that comment was directed at me but rest assured I am not a fanboy; I owned a Vertex 60GB and it performed without incident. I simply prefer Intel just like I tend to prefer nVidia but I will buy any product from any manufacturer as long as it satisfies my own personal requirements. Yes, most (if not all) SSDs have had problems in the past which isn't surprising considering the relative immaturity of the tech.
Is "Ameteurs" name calling?
Pardon me if I've just seen this crap year after year after year on this forum. It's is very amazing to watch. A few threads with no real data, mostly opinions, come up, and before you know it people have exaggerated whatever it was and then it becomes this large-scale issue. This has happened time and time again.
I use both SSDs on a daily basis and own, have owned and deployed well over 50 of the regular Indilinx Vertex drives without a single failure. They're all on multiple fw versions, the lowest being 1.3. I started this on release day 2 years ago or whenever it was.
I have actually had a few issues with the G2 80GB intel drives I've had - never had one brick on me, but they are not without their issues.
And all this is from my own personal experience. I have no brand loyalty to anyone except those who make good products, which could be anyone at one time or another. I just cannot stand watching these FUDathons unfold time and time again. I won't even go there on the RAID0 debates... SO many people talking out their asses with ZERO personal experience.. just repeating the FUD they've read here..
Anyway, it's almost Friday and that's a damn good thing.
Pardon me if I've just seen this crap year after year after year on this forum. It's is very amazing to watch. A few threads with no real data, mostly opinions, come up, and before you know it people have exaggerated whatever it was and then it becomes this large-scale issue. This has happened time and time again.
I use both SSDs on a daily basis and own, have owned and deployed well over 50 of the regular Indilinx Vertex drives without a single failure. They're all on multiple fw versions, the lowest being 1.3. I started this on release day 2 years ago or whenever it was.
I have actually had a few issues with the G2 80GB intel drives I've had - never had one brick on me, but they are not without their issues.
And all this is from my own personal experience. I have no brand loyalty to anyone except those who make good products, which could be anyone at one time or another. I just cannot stand watching these FUDathons unfold time and time again. I won't even go there on the RAID0 debates... SO many people talking out their asses with ZERO personal experience.. just repeating the FUD they've read here..
Anyway, it's almost Friday and that's a damn good thing.
Anyway, it's almost Friday and that's a damn good thing.
QFT
I think the Sandforce controllers still look interesting (reliability is unproven in either direction equally for the Micron and Sandforce.) The C300 has impressive performance, no doubt, the Sandforce is ahead in fewer benchmarks, but some important ones for me (random write in particular), is cheaper and I like the sound of the Durawrite technology.
Still more drawn to the C300 drives, but only by a tiny bit.
Still more drawn to the C300 drives, but only by a tiny bit.
Old Hippie
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I didn't even know what you're talking about 'till I reread the thread.
It wasn't directed at anyone in this thread, just a statement.
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Now that's more like it! Why couldn't you just say that in the first place?
I can respect your viewpoint and your experience. I saw in the "SSD fail" thread where you had worked with ~50 drives of various types, and I for one think it's great that you haven't had any failures. That's a bigger sample than many other users on this forum, so the fact that you haven't had any failures certainly bodes well for the reliability of SSDs. However, I stand by the fact that I have personally seen more SSD owners complain of failures of Indilinx drives...that may not mean a thing in the grand scheme of things, but these are actual failures reported directly by their owners, not rumors or here-say. It's not my intention to spread FUD, but if passing along my own personal observations constitutes as that then I apologize.
Brahmzy said:Anyway, it's almost Friday and that's a damn good thing.
Yes sir! /passes a beer
Old Hippie said:I didn't even know what you're talking about 'till I reread the thread.
It wasn't directed at anyone in this thread, just a statement.
No worries, man. I didn't think that was your style anyway. /passes another beer
Don't get too drunk before the weekend, boys! Heh.
Old Hippie
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Too Late!
[LYL]Homer
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Both are great drives. I'd go for the C300 based on bang for the buck.