World of Warcraft Patch 3.3.0 Released

For all of you people that have trouble with HoR, just have the whole group go stand in one of the little rooms behind the bosses and hide in a corner. This will put you out of LoS of all the mobs, so they will all run directly to you (making it much easier for the tank to pick up everything).
 
I found that the run went smoothest when we reverted to pre-tankeverything at once mentality and just trapped one, shackled/repented one, and then the dps could focus w/o everyone taking lots of aoe damage.

I brute forced it with a warrior tank with 50k hp as well, but it was much messier.
 
bpizzle1 said:
For all of you people that have trouble with HoR, just have the whole group go stand in one of the little rooms behind the bosses and hide in a corner. This will put you out of LoS of all the mobs, so they will all run directly to you (making it much easier for the tank to pick up everything).
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So basically everyone except tank stays in time out corner and DPS aoe dot?
I am still partial noob so forgive me.
 
ocellaris said:
The tank stays in the corner too
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ok, that explains it.
Last night the Tank is yelling at everyone to get in the corner, but he stays out and takes aggro. I am in the corner asking myself, why am I here?

Looks like HE didn't get the point. Ultimately I came out and dps and we made it through that barely with me dead once.

All in all though, the pugs have been pretty good and the emblems are stacking up.

between that and cooking/fishing dailies I am happy for now.
 
I noticed the odd numbers from dmgmeter the other day, I was posting at 700's dps but had 48% of the groups dmg output where the top dps was in the 1100's range and only did 15% of groups dmg. This is for a 70ish group in Nexus(7 times in a row?!).
 
tuaarita said:
Is it just me or are enhancement shamans horrible in PvE?
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Just you. I am always in the top 5 dps for our guilds 25 man raids, competing with hunter's and rogues.

edit: To the post above mine, I believe recount is a bit bugged when dealing with players from other realms.
 
can you add players from other realms to your friends list and chat with them? is there a way to play with the same person from another realm twice?
 
Gabe3 said:
can you add players from other realms to your friends list and chat with them? is there a way to play with the same person from another realm twice?
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I tried that, and it does not work or allow it ? I think that would be very cool, to save them to your friends list
 
I've had trouble with HoR pugs. I think its heavily reliant on the tank and heals for the wave portion, and it really separates the bad healers from the good ones. The healers I've ran with often stood there casting nothing while us dps are took a lot of damage, and sometimes when the tank is taking a real beating too. I don't know if it's because they're getting panic attacks, or were so used to facerolling the other heroics that they find themselves overwhelmed.

zoobaby said:
2. There are a few types of tanks out there:
a. The over geared tank that stops for nothing. Often pulls three packs at once. These are my favorites.
b. The over geared tank that is overly cautious.
c. The under geared tank that thinks he can smash through everything like a geared tank. (Irritating but always interesting runs)
d. The new tank in blues, that knows how to play...I find it fun to heal these for some reason.
e. The bad tanks, come in all gear get ups. Example: The pally tank that wont use consecrate...these are the worst...and one was a guild member...(Can I tell him he sucks and needs to learn to tank?)
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I like tank "A" too but sometimes they're not mindful of casters that can and do go oom, especially when its before a boss and im almost oom with my mana-regen abilities on CD :D.
 
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Yoshiyuki Blade said:
I've had trouble with HoR pugs. I think its heavily reliant on the tank and heals for the wave portion, and it really separates the bad healers from the good ones. The healers I've ran with often stood there casting nothing while us dps are took a lot of damage, and sometimes when the tank is taking a real beating too. I don't know if it's because they're getting panic attacks, or were so used to facerolling the other heroics that they find themselves overwhelmed.
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if you go back to wow classic and some of bc, crowd control was used on almost every pull. heck, the primary functions of the mage class were to sheep mobs, make food, and remove curses. now its almost 100 percent aoe tanking and facerolling. I like these hor pulls, its one of the few places in the game were cc can be used in pve.
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ocellaris said:
if you go back to wow classic and some of bc, crowd control was used on almost every pull. heck, the primary functions of the mage class were to sheep mobs, make food, and remove curses. now its almost 100 percent aoe tanking and facerolling. I like these hor pulls, its one of the few places in the game were cc can be used in pve.
Posted via [H] Mobile Device
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Ah yeah. I remember those days, ugggh. :p

Though I haven't tried it myself, I don't think I could sheep the adds on HoR since they're undead. They could have been humanoid, but I assumed otherwise and didn't check. If that's the case, you'd have to luck out on getting the proper CC classes for these situations. I think that's what Blizzard is trying to avoid though, since it would be unfair to need CC in areas where you may not always have the appropriate CCers available. Especially with random players.
 
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H HoR is pretty fun and intense to heal/tank, especially when everyone does the corner strat and therefore gets nuked at the same time by the mage's flamestrike, adding to the insane healing required. Once you heal/tank it a few times, it adds a refreshing feel to the game and makes you that much better a player, and the drops that much more rewarding.
 
Nanan said:
I noticed the odd numbers from dmgmeter the other day, I was posting at 700's dps but had 48% of the groups dmg output where the top dps was in the 1100's range and only did 15% of groups dmg. This is for a 70ish group in Nexus(7 times in a row?!).
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Top DPS is not always top damage done. If a person does not attack a mob at all, they are not counted as in combat with the mob according to mods like recount, so their dps does not change. Also, if a person dies early, recount (assuming you use this mod for meters since it's the most common) will freeze their dps for the duration of combat. So basically, they could have been doing 1000 dps, died after 30 seconds, and recount will show them as top dps, but their overall dmg will be low.

Generally, I've noticed a distinct lack of good dps in the pugs I've done since 3.3 launched. In nearly every single one, my DK does at least 40%+ of the group's total damage for an instance (including bosses). Granted, my DK is way overgeared for heroics, but I've run into far too many players that barely break 1000 dps (I had a mage in my group yesterday that was pulling a massive 800 dps....wearing all epics including some tier 9 level stuff). There is simply no excuse for numbers like that, period. When I hit level 80, my DK could pull nearly 2K dps in greens, so there is no reason that people wearing the countless free epics that are basically handed out shouldn't be able to break the at least the 3k barrier in a heroic. On the other hand, I've been generally pretty lucky with tanks and healers. I can only recall one healer that couldn't keep up with healing due to lack of gear, and I don't think I've had any issues with tanks yet.
 
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Yoshiyuki Blade said:
The healers I've ran with often stood there casting nothing while us dps are took a lot of damage, and sometimes when the tank is taking a real beating too. I don't know if it's because they're getting panic attacks, or were so used to facerolling the other heroics that they find themselves overwhelmed.
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The footmen have a shield slam that blocks out spells for a few seconds, thats why healers may just be standing around while people die. They were probably mid-heal when they got shut down.
 
bpizzle1 said:
Top DPS is not always top damage done. If a person does not attack a mob at all, they are not counted as in combat with the mob according to mods like recount, so their dps does not change. Also, if a person dies early, recount (assuming you use this mod for meters since it's the most common) will freeze their dps for the duration of combat. So basically, they could have been doing 1000 dps, died after 30 seconds, and recount will show them as top dps, but their overall dmg will be low.
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Thank god someone gets it. Everyone asks "what's your DPS?" as if DPS matters... really, it doesn't; damage does.
 
bpizzle1 said:
Granted, my DK is way overgeared for heroics, but I've run into far too many players that barely break 1000 dps (I had a mage in my group yesterday that was pulling a massive 800 dps....wearing all epics including some tier 9 level stuff). There is simply no excuse for numbers like that, period. When I hit level 80, my DK could pull nearly 2K dps in greens, so there is no reason that people wearing the countless free epics that are basically handed out shouldn't be able to break the at least the 3k barrier in a heroic. On the other hand, I've been generally pretty lucky with tanks and healers. I can only recall one healer that couldn't keep up with healing due to lack of gear, and I don't think I've had any issues with tanks yet.
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Prime example of why damage meters are bad right here. Damage meters have been broken since 3.3 launched, especially for ranged classes in random PUGs. And here you are knocking on someone else for being bad based on a mod. This has been discussed in this thread already.

Recount released two updates yesterday that *might* fix the issue.
 
I play a resto sham, and the new heroics are really a test of how good your healing is. There's so much aoe damage that the healer has to keep up with. H HoR doesn't really allow for much error. If your tank doesn't have aggro on everything very quickly, the dps get crushed. I much prefer the CC method of doing it rather than trying to brute force it in one of the alcoves. The biggest issue you run into there is that you have the melee mobs on top of the healers and they will shield bash mid heal for a nice 10 second lockout. Couple that with the fear the priest/mage seems to cast on me all the time, or the hunters trap shot, and it's easy to get behind on heals when the tank has 4 of the elites on him. Also, if you're a pally or a priest, do the group a favor and dispel the 3k a tick shadow word pains that seem to get on everyone. It's really helpful to the healer to not need to spot heal because someone just took 15k damage when we need to be spam healing the tank with 4 mobs on him.

Otherwise, it's a fun instance that requires a lot of healing power and stellar dps to make everything die quick and a tank who's capable of picking up everything quickly.

Kudos to blizz for making something difficult enough to require CC again.
 
Just came back after taking a break for a while.

Can someone give me the rundown of "normal" progression in Northrend once you finish the "regular/normal" instances (and hit 80, of course). I'm assuming heroics come next, followed by Naxx?
 
Gambit said:
Thank god someone gets it. Everyone asks "what's your DPS?" as if DPS matters... really, it doesn't; damage does.
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DPS is important as well however. Damage can be "padded" by AOE damage to multiple mobs. If a person thinks he is awesome because he can load up a ton of damage on trash before the boss but can only DPS 800 on the boss he will not be a very good group member. Both are important for different reasons.
 
Actuary said:
Just came back after taking a break for a while.

Can someone give me the rundown of "normal" progression in Northrend once you finish the "regular/normal" instances (and hit 80, of course). I'm assuming heroics come next, followed by Naxx?
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You "can" go this way. I just recently geared up a fairly new 80 and I went a different route. Dinged 80 and started with regular TOC then on to H TOC. After H TOC you can be pretty geared up and able to start getting into some of the raids.
 
I wouldn't even bother with Naxx or Ulduar. Just run a bunch of heroics for Triumph badges and get a full set of t9 gear.
 
ocellaris said:
Prime example of why damage meters are bad right here. Damage meters have been broken since 3.3 launched, especially for ranged classes in random PUGs. And here you are knocking on someone else for being bad based on a mod. This has been discussed in this thread already.

Recount released two updates yesterday that *might* fix the issue.
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I wasn't knocking on anyone about a mod, I just explained how people with high dps on meters can be low on damage done since someone was confused about it. I'm also unaware of recount being broken since 3.3. They are accurate for the raids I have been on, and since all it really does is parse combat logs and add numbers together I don't really know how it would be broken just in random PUGs. If they are somehow broken for that specific case, then hopefully the update will fix the issue so people don't look like they aren't even trying.
 
bpizzle1 said:
I wasn't knocking on anyone about a mod, I just explained how people with high dps on meters can be low on damage done since someone was confused about it. I'm also unaware of recount being broken since 3.3. They are accurate for the raids I have been on, and since all it really does is parse combat logs and add numbers together I don't really know how it would be broken just in random PUGs. If they are somehow broken for that specific case, then hopefully the update will fix the issue so people don't look like they aren't even trying.
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Recount parases data out of the add on channel that is not available to users by default. The data going through this channel is not getting handled correctly for cross realm PUGs. Since the data is not in the add on channel, Recount tries to get it from the combat log. However the combat log is moderately limited in that it only reports things happening close to you, its not a full log. So if you are in melee range and a hunter is at max distance, it will not pick up his damage using the combat log, and it will not be getting it correctly out of the add on channel either, so the end result is usually a meager <1000 DPS.

Since raids are not cross realm, they work fine.
 
Space_Coyote said:
I was just going to suggest that. Any gear you might get will be upgrades to quest blues as well.
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Yeah, I just wasn't sure at what point I could jump into raids, never having done them before.

I'd imagine that I'd want to get a piece or two from heroics (especially weapons, I'm a rogue) before starting in Naxx.
 
Tempted to go back and run around in my Armani War Bear for a few more times and kill Lich king. My times would suck though. Guess I will wait til the next expansion before starting back up too late now.
 
Ahh caught me on that one, Still kinda said I always called it that and no one would correct me in-game since they day I got it. :p
 
ocellaris said:
Recount parases data out of the add on channel that is not available to users by default. The data going through this channel is not getting handled correctly for cross realm PUGs. Since the data is not in the add on channel, Recount tries to get it from the combat log. However the combat log is moderately limited in that it only reports things happening close to you, its not a full log. So if you are in melee range and a hunter is at max distance, it will not pick up his damage using the combat log, and it will not be getting it correctly out of the add on channel either, so the end result is usually a meager <1000 DPS.

Since raids are not cross realm, they work fine.
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Recount works perfectly fine for me in cross-realm PUGs. If it shows someone is doing 800DPS, and I watch them attack a mob, they are actually doing complete crap for damage, and therefore crap DPS. Its not possible to do crap damage and have strong DPS, seeing as how if you can only manage to do 1000 damage a hit every second, you cant possibly do over 1k DPS ;) Obviously that doesnt apply to AOE, but anyone who looks at AOE damage/DPS as anything serious is doing it wrong. I can do 15k+ DPS when I AOE on my warlock and mage with large packs of stuff. :p
I would say probably 90% of the people I get tossed in groups with do perfectly fine, the other 10% are just bad players - Not just in DPS/Damage, but in skill usage, etc.

Recount also doesnt have a short range, you should be recording anyone within ~100-120yds. Beyond that, it doesnt work well. If you're thinking you are not getting data from far off, perhaps you messed with something else. And if you have people 120+yds away DPSing the same target, theres something seriously wrong.
 
Justinimcool2001 said:
DPS is important as well however. Damage can be "padded" by AOE damage to multiple mobs. If a person thinks he is awesome because he can load up a ton of damage on trash before the boss but can only DPS 800 on the boss he will not be a very good group member. Both are important for different reasons.
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Damage still trumps it IMO, even when AOE is involved. I look at damage (as far as damage is concerned) as how much someone has "contributed". For instance, if you have a rogue that single targets 100k damage vs a mage that AoE's 100k damage... what's the *real* difference in what they've done? They've both inflicted the same amount of damage. Yeah, the mage probably did it *easier* by just casting Blizzard over the mob, but the same amount of damage was done. Everyone has a job (or should), just because one's job is AoE'ing a pack down, doesn't mean their damage should be ignored.

Now look at DPS... say I run in and hit something hard once for a 5k crit and immediately fall over dead. It'll record my DPS as 5k... even though I only *did* 5k damage throughout the entire fight.

Obviously the examples I've given are rough and intended to show the difference between the two. If you're worried about trash "padding" the numbers before a boss fight, then either clear the log first or look at just the single boss fight and get better numbers.
 
FighterAce124 said:
Recount works perfectly fine for me in cross-realm PUGs. If it shows someone is doing 800DPS, and I watch them attack a mob, they are actually doing complete crap for damage, and therefore crap DPS. Its not possible to do crap damage and have strong DPS, seeing as how if you can only manage to do 1000 damage a hit every second, you cant possibly do over 1k DPS ;) Obviously that doesnt apply to AOE, but anyone who looks at AOE damage/DPS as anything serious is doing it wrong. I can do 15k+ DPS when I AOE on my warlock and mage with large packs of stuff. :p
I would say probably 90% of the people I get tossed in groups with do perfectly fine, the other 10% are just bad players - Not just in DPS/Damage, but in skill usage, etc.

Recount also doesnt have a short range, you should be recording anyone within ~100-120yds. Beyond that, it doesnt work well. If you're thinking you are not getting data from far off, perhaps you messed with something else. And if you have people 120+yds away DPSing the same target, theres something seriously wrong.
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Ok seriously got read some threads on the WoW forms, Elitest Jerks, or the comments sections for the Recount development pages. www.wow.com has a few articles that mention this as well with links. It was not working correctly. I've seen a hunter in full T9.5 post up a 638 on Recount while dropping bombs on mobs the entire instance. That is what got me looking into this, just Autoshot for that level of gear is way above 1000. Plus you could add up the "Damage Done" and it was totalling less than the bosses HP totals when this was happening.

Recount did not update for 3.3 because it didn't actually work correctly. They left it considered an out of data addon so people would not use it (and everyone did anyway...). Yesterday they finally updated it and then patched it. I believe it might work now.
 
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Gambit said:
Thank god someone gets it. Everyone asks "what's your DPS?" as if DPS matters... really, it doesn't; damage does.
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I think it is assumed that you're not a moron and everyone will have maximized time on boss - therefore DPS would essentially be the equivalent to total damage done.
 
Ritorix said:
The footmen have a shield slam that blocks out spells for a few seconds, thats why healers may just be standing around while people die. They were probably mid-heal when they got shut down.
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Ah, that suddenly makes sense of everything.
 
Gambit said:
Damage still trumps it IMO, even when AOE is involved. I look at damage (as far as damage is concerned) as how much someone has "contributed". For instance, if you have a rogue that single targets 100k damage vs a mage that AoE's 100k damage... what's the *real* difference in what they've done? They've both inflicted the same amount of damage. Yeah, the mage probably did it *easier* by just casting Blizzard over the mob, but the same amount of damage was done. Everyone has a job (or should), just because one's job is AoE'ing a pack down, doesn't mean their damage should be ignored.

Now look at DPS... say I run in and hit something hard once for a 5k crit and immediately fall over dead. It'll record my DPS as 5k... even though I only *did* 5k damage throughout the entire fight.

Obviously the examples I've given are rough and intended to show the difference between the two. If you're worried about trash "padding" the numbers before a boss fight, then either clear the log first or look at just the single boss fight and get better numbers.
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That all makes sense to me but the big difference for me is that trash is easy to get through, bosses are hard. If someone can get tons of damage on the trash but can barely do any single target he isn't worth his weight to me cause we will wipe from the enrage timer or something (poor example but I hope my point came across)
 
Actuary said:
Understandable, but I'd probably want to go through them at least once to see them.
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The awesome thing about 3.3 is that you can queue for random heroics which means eventually, you should see every instance.

From my observations, I would guess that at least 75% of players I see are waaay overgeared for the "old" heroics and most groups will faceroll them in short order.

This means that if something drops that you need, chances are, other players won't, because they are running the instance for badges, not loot.

And speaking of badges, you can earn a TON in a short amount of time, simply by running heroics. If you have a toon that can heal, I would highly suggest speccing heals for the random heroics. There's almost no wait time for groups, whereas dps can take several minutes to get groups.

Tanks also get groups almost instantly, but groups are not inclined to put up with an undergeared tank. It's not as bad as an undergeared healer because you'll be healing overgeared tanks who will be taking little damage.

These quick groups will allow you to accumulate a lot of badges quickly, which will in turn give you access to much better gear to catch up.

Good luck!
 
Cintirich said:
The awesome thing about 3.3 is that you can queue for random heroics which means eventually, you should see every instance.

From my observations, I would guess that at least 75% of players I see are waaay overgeared for the "old" heroics and most groups will faceroll them in short order.

This means that if something drops that you need, chances are, other players won't, because they are running the instance for badges, not loot.

And speaking of badges, you can earn a TON in a short amount of time, simply by running heroics. If you have a toon that can heal, I would highly suggest speccing heals for the random heroics. There's almost no wait time for groups, whereas dps can take several minutes to get groups.

Tanks also get groups almost instantly, but groups are not inclined to put up with an undergeared tank. It's not as bad as an undergeared healer because you'll be healing overgeared tanks who will be taking little damage.

These quick groups will allow you to accumulate a lot of badges quickly, which will in turn give you access to much better gear to catch up.

Good luck!
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This is exactly what I did. In less than a week I now have full Tier 9 gear and 2600 healing on my shaman. I started at around 1900 healing and graduated to all epics in a week super farming heroics. The new dungeons have excellent gear as well, heroic and non.
 
H HoR is easy...but, not if you do it the traditional "pull the pack and kill it mentality". The biggest thing people do is not CC, target key mobs first, and stand close to the tank. It just makes it chaotic.
 
Gambit said:
Damage still trumps it IMO, even when AOE is involved. I look at damage (as far as damage is concerned) as how much someone has "contributed". For instance, if you have a rogue that single targets 100k damage vs a mage that AoE's 100k damage... what's the *real* difference in what they've done? They've both inflicted the same amount of damage. Yeah, the mage probably did it *easier* by just casting Blizzard over the mob, but the same amount of damage was done. Everyone has a job (or should), just because one's job is AoE'ing a pack down, doesn't mean their damage should be ignored.

Now look at DPS... say I run in and hit something hard once for a 5k crit and immediately fall over dead. It'll record my DPS as 5k... even though I only *did* 5k damage throughout the entire fight.

Obviously the examples I've given are rough and intended to show the difference between the two. If you're worried about trash "padding" the numbers before a boss fight, then either clear the log first or look at just the single boss fight and get better numbers.
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Agreed. I wish more people would understand this.
 
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