Wireless Project: Is this possible? Wireless in Heavy tree/wooded Location .5mile

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jwhiteuwc

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Hello all,

I was contacted to see if I could help a good friend install a "resort wide" wireless system in a heavly wooded setting. The resort is about .5miles long (2640 ft) and has a ton of trees. In those trees are small cottages that they want to offer wireless access to I was thinking of using some higher end CIsco equipment (1505) and some 14db antenna mounted on their Club house.
I've attached a image of what it looks like This is areial of the location: What do you guys think? Would each cottage have to have a highe end antenna too? I'm thinking yes :).
.
Project.jpg
So the main question is, with the right equipment, is it possible?

Here is another photo during fall:
Project2.jpg


They do have privately owned Coaxial going through-out the resort, would that be a option? I'm thinking distance would be a limitation. Thoughts?

Thanks!
 
not really sure but would probably have to get some repeaters or bridges to increase the signal. would have to do some surveying. grab some access point, set it up at the clubhouse, take your laptop out and see when it starts to drop, add another one, and hope for the best.

but i dunno not really my field.
 
I would put the distance of 2.4gHz wireless at “3 trees” on a rainy day.

Motorola has a sort of industrial grade Broadband over Powerline product for Buildings, Malls, Hotels ect.
Here is a general overview of what it can do (1st document under Powerline MU).

http://motorola.canopywireless.com/support/library/?cat=8&region=1

I noticed the gateways connect to the inductive couplers through RJ6 coax. It may be possible to use some of your existing coax in the design.
Might want to have a little pow-wow with a Moto Rep and see what they’ve got.

There’s also 900mHz wireless, it can pass through trees but depends on the density. I don’t have any experience in 900 so I couldn’t tell you anything on range; you can ask Motorola, they sell that too, or Cisco.
 
Interesting project!

I would think you would need to bridge some access points along the property.
I'd probably suggest setting up one at each corner and two or three down each of those
drivers/roads. Set it up like a grid or web. It may be overkill, but worth it :)
 
marley1 said:
would have to do some surveying. grab some access point, set it up at the clubhouse, take your laptop out and see when it starts to drop
Click to expand...

This would be a good idea, to see how far having a clubhouse only AP would get you.

I think you're probably going to need quite a lot of APs as the signal's not going to travel through the trees well.
My guess is you'll need decent accesspoints in roughly these locations;
 
WOw, thanks for the suggestions (and mark up of locations). Please keep them coming. I think Wireless maybe the only viable option. Regarding the access point locations, are you thinking of bridging those connections or providing Ethernet to those locations to power the AP's?

Dzero; are you thinking of connecting the Powerline product directly to their exsisting Coax? I'm asking them to provide a layout or drawing of how the coax was run.

Thanks again. Please keep the suggestions coming.
 
What you're going to need is some sort of wireless mesh solution. Preferrably, a solution that will allow you to use your existing RG6. While using 900Mhz system may be an option, you would most likely need to provide that adapter for your customers and install it on their systems etc etc.

As for testing range/los. I would recommend using some sort of wireless voip phone going "Can you hear me now?"
 
jwhiteuwc said:
Dzero; are you thinking of connecting the Powerline product directly to their exsisting Coax? I'm asking them to provide a layout or drawing of how the coax was run.
Click to expand...

Yes, it’s not real clear in the brochure what possible setups are available. In the first pdf, on page 10 they list the distance over Powerline at 300’ but, on page 11 they also show a graph of up to 3600’ over coax and 1500’ over phone wire.

If they do have the ability to use the coax up to 3600’, then it would seem to be the easy solution.

If not that far,
Use the coax to run to the transformers then Powerline from there on?
Since I can’t see any utility poles anywhere, I assume there are probably underground fed transformers. Something like 2 or 3 step-down transformers per street. So, you use the coax to feed signal to the load side of each transformer and one extender to get to 600’. Basically, you could serve every house that each transformer serves by adding extenders where you need them.

If you can’t use your existing coax then you would use the main transformer, probably by the clubhouse, where it breaks off to feed each of the smaller transformers,. From there you would use extenders every 300’ to the end of each street. In each scenario you would only need one gateway.

That’s the only thing I can think of. I’m kind of curious about it myself.

If you do talk to Motorola you may want to draw out power distribution points and mark them on the photo. It will be easier if they can see how it’s laid out.
The transformers would look something like this. The small ones may be at the street or in the backyard easements
http://www.cooperpower.com/Products/Transformer/Pad-Mounted/

Man am I confused now!
 
OK, I think I understand it now.

One Gateway connects to the coax at the distribution point. Those coax run to each house. At each house you connect the coax to an inductive coupler in the service panel. Then, every outlet in the house can use the CPE modem/router to connect to a computer.

Over and out.
 
I think I ran across that site yesterday. I was looking for manufacturers but I didn’t have the right terms. That’s more like what you need. The Motorola is more for buildings.

I did a check around a little more on the Moto site. It seems the term I was looking for was CMTS “Cable Modem Termination System”, which Motorola sells, so I figured there must be more vendors. And there are, Arris is one of them.

http://docsis.org/node/175

It really sounds like an interesting project, I’d like to hear how it progresses.
 
900MHz gear should work good in that area. Only downside is that you have limited bandwidth (a couple megabits at best) with 900MHz vs 2.4GHz or 5.xGHz.

Motorola Canopy: http://www.tessco.com/products/displayProducts.do?groupId=592&subgroupId=10
Pricey stuff however, but it does do well penetrating trees.

I haven't found many wireless mesh units that were reliable or delivered a lot of bandwidth.

2.4GHz would probably work okay during the fall, winter, and beginning parts of spring time, since most of the leaves appear to have dropped from those trees, but Summer I could make a big bet it would not work at all, except for the buildings closet to the ClubHouse. How tall are these trees on average?

How much bandwidth are you planning on delivering to each building? Public IPs or private? Different bandwidth price plans?

If you own the telephone poles or have access to them, you could run outdoor fiber to each building. That would be a great setup, however expensive to terminate.
 
Thanks for the folllow up. These trees are pretty tall "average" if that helps any :)

So even with a high powered 2.4ghz radio 14dB and a commerical grade access point with higher mW's 2.4ghz will not penetrate the trees? Just curious is all. I suppose when they talking "4 miles" on the specs, that's a wide open frenzel zone to even get those distances?

Thanks again.
 
jwhiteuwc said:
Thanks for the folllow up. These trees are pretty tall "average" if that helps any :)

So even with a high powered 2.4ghz radio 14dB and a commerical grade access point with higher mW's 2.4ghz will not penetrate the trees? Just curious is all. I suppose when they talking "4 miles" on the specs, that's a wide open frenzel zone to even get those distances?

Thanks again.
Click to expand...

Correct. Open fresnel zone and Line of Sight.
 
Maybe look into industrial AP w/ directional antennas placed at the tree tops.. not my area but I do know directional antennas can travel miles.
 
Just to put in my 2c ... if you are going to do a mesh installation such as the Cisco 1500's, you should really have a POP (hard connection to a wired network) every 3 hops.

Read up on Cisco's design guides (Mesh & mobile: http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/solution/mblacrdg.pdf ) they are a really good place to start.

And remember ... anything is possible, it is just a function of time, money and effort!

Please post back on your progress; there are a lot of interest in this project.
 
So far my update woudl be that the Cable Terminiation devices are really only used for Cable Company applications and require a knowledge of their setup to utlize. I do think that Wireless maybe the only cost affortable solution.

Just wanted to post what I've found thus far.

Thanks
 
Is there any type of meduim that runs directly to the club house or a central point that you could perhaps tap in to? Phones, Coax, etc?

Your best bet might be to find local vendors who offer broadband solutions such a Comcast or SBC and see if they are willing to cut a deal with you in providing your customers with broadband. You could perhaps make a cut from it and you can push the price down drastically because you can provide to an exclusive market?

Edit, you might want to check out what Meraki offers... http://meraki.com/oursolution/hardware/outdoor/
 
There is a fixed medium to each cottage (coax) that could be used. I asked for some drawings of how it was run and have yet to receive them. Knowing how they are run would help the project :)

That might not be a bad idea. I think the vendor up there is Charter currenlty, but is not run out to this location (meaning not servicable), but maybe the would be willing to now being there are 346 clients :)
 
I agree with Ockie. They might be willing to do it for that at a reduced price. I agree with the comment on having a POP every 3 hops if you go with the Cisco 1500s
 
Thanks. I'm going to contact Charter This week.

I did speak with Meraki and emailed them the photos, they said that their product would work great, but would require a Point-to-Multipoint setup (900mhz) then I could then user their product off the endpoints to distribute acces to the cottages. Makes sense if you ask me, but 900mhz transmittion is sort of limited (says 3.3mb, but probably 1.2mb's tops) however it is a solution and not a bad one as the client devices are cheap.
 
jwhiteuwc said:
Thanks. I'm going to contact Charter This week.

I did speak with Meraki and emailed them the photos, they said that their product would work great, but would require a Point-to-Multipoint setup (900mhz) then I could then user their product off the endpoints to distribute acces to the cottages. Makes sense if you ask me, but 900mhz transmittion is sort of limited (says 3.3mb, but probably 1.2mb's tops) however it is a solution and not a bad one as the client devices are cheap.
Click to expand...

1.2Mbit internet sure beats no internet :)

What type of connectivity do you have running at the guest house that would satisfy all these residents?
 
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