Wireless Access point for public space?

[mikeblas]

What's a decent wireless access point for a public space?

I'm helping out a bar owner by upgrading the equipment at the bar. Capacity is about 130, so I figure a max of 30 or 40 clients (but because people have phones and switch to wifi if they're savvy, maybe more ...) I'd like to find something that's reasonably secure, but it's important that it's robust for the clients.

What would you use?

 

[Mackintire]

Ubiquiti Unifi Std is what you want. Depending on the size of the bar you may want to purchase the three pack.

For design purposes think 30 users per AP MAX. Alternately you can limit the number of connected users to 30. More users...the experience starts going downhill.

You also may want to create a VLAN for guest access, enable the wireless feature called client isolation and configure the Fair Querying QOS for guest access to your liking.

 

[Innocence]

Similar to Mackintire, but I'd say Unifi Pro - Gives you Wireless N and standard PoE (instead of proprietary 24V).

Assuming you have some budget, Get a 3 pack, put them equidistant from each-other (and ceiling mount them), then if you want to be fancy - turn down the power until they're not overlapping too much. Nice thing about doing 3 is that you can use the 3 non-overlapping 2.4GHz channels (1,6 and 11) so coverage overlap doesn't matter much.

I'm running about 2 dozen UniFi Pro's, and I like them far more than the HP and Cisco gear I've worked with in the past - and it's eons away from consumer d-link/netgear/etc.

 

[mikeblas]

Those look great, thanks!

The room is about 50 x 30 feet, so I think one will cover it -- especially with antenna diversity. PoE would definitely be helpful. Guest access might be interesting in the future, but the joint doesn't have any WiFi for business use. All the PoS (and entertainment) is on copper.

 

[Deleted member 12106]

Ubiquiti Unifi Std is what you want. Depending on the size of the bar you may want to purchase the three pack.

For design purposes think 30 users per AP MAX. Alternately you can limit the number of connected users to 30. More users...the experience starts going downhill.

You also may want to create a VLAN for guest access, enable the wireless feature called client isolation and configure the Fair Querying QOS for guest access to your liking.

I would do this and also deny access to the local subnet if you do not have a switch that supports vlan.

I wouldn't go with the pro, you will spend 3x more and do not need the additional throughput or 5ghz band if all you want is to offer basic internet to phones.

 

[BigTy]

I too have this question for a larger size church but I will have a device count of 500-1000 tablets phones and laptops. I would also want to use a vlan for the local traffic, then use rate limiting on the network.

 

[Deleted member 12106]

I too have this question for a larger size church but I will have a device count of 500-1000 tablets phones and laptops. I would also want to use a vlan for the local traffic, then use rate limiting on the network.

You Can do that with these.

 

[Nate7311]

I would do this and also deny access to the local subnet if you do not have a switch that supports vlan.

I wouldn't go with the pro, you will spend 3x more and do not need the additional throughput or 5ghz band if all you want is to offer basic internet to phones.

Well, the Pro/ACs will offer 2 benefits, 2 Radios (2.4Ghz and 5Ghz) as well as a Gigabit uplink port. In theory, a dual band AP should be able to handle more clients. And any devices you shuffle off to the 5Ghz band will be less clutter on the already overcrowded 2.4Ghz band. That being said, there have been some random issues with both the Pros and AC units. Given the price difference, of (4 or 5:1) you can probably triple up on the Standard units as well in order to have enough density.

 

[Mackintire]

If you enable fair querying and use 5-6 APs With very low use.... traffic shaped to something like 512Kbps per user. You might get 50 functioning users per AP, abit slow but actually working. Execution of this will require a survey trial and error and significant tuning.



500-1000 users you should be looking at Ruckus or Xirrus 3+ radio AP's for high density environments.

Ubiquiti is developing a product for this market, but I have no clue when it will be out on the market.

 

[mikeblas]

This project finally moved ahead a bit; thanks again for the recommendations!

If I'm reading the docs right, the Unifi equipment requires a management app to be running on a PC on the wired network, and the APs don't provide a web interface. This won't be acceptable for my situation; we'll want a self-contained access point.

The site also told me they had a separate firewall, but they don't; I'll actually need a router, too.

I've looked at a few integrated routers, like the Netgear N750, but the current trend seems to be adding all sorts of additional features for home use -- backup software for attached devices, downloadable apps, media access and players, and so on.

Given that requirement, any recommendations?

 

[dave99]

you only need the controller for the initial setup. Once that is done, you don't need it anymore.

 

[mikeblas]

The initial setup, or setup changes afterwards?

Still need the router, though.

 

[/usr/sbin]

The initial setup, or setup changes afterwards?

Both.

Still need the router, though.

I'd go with a Ubiquiti Edge Router Lite. 30-40 devices will choke a standard residential router, add in the owners equipment and good luck. It's a command line interface to setup the advanced features, but if you don't mind that it's by far the best router for the $$$. It's QoS features are outstanding.

Since your client has a network for his devices such as PoS machines, etc. The edge router would do well since you can setup two entirely separate networks as one WAN and two separate LAN ports like this:

• eth0 = LAN 192.168.1.1/24
• eth1= WAN (Internet)
• eth2= LAN 192.168.2.1/24

This would separate the networks *without* having to buy a new switch that supports VLANs

 

[mikeblas]

I ended up buying a Unifi AC Pro for my home to replace a really old D-Link commercial access point. It's nice having the new standards for performance -- my old AP didn't have MIMO, even.

The hardware is pretty, but I hide my AP under a dresser so I don't spend much time looking at it. The hardware clicks and makes noise, which is annoying and something it seems UniFi isn't going to fix. I had some trouble with the Controller software because of poor documentation and flakey config file parsing, but got trough that. There are lots of complaints about the software requiring the Windows firewall to be off, which is a valid concer considering it is written in Java. (I'm sure I can come up with a script to disable and pass through the involved ports ... but I still have to do so for JAVA.EXE, not the actual application.)

The controller software is a real PITA. You can only control an AP from one machine; you have to "adopt" the AP over. This wouldn't have worked out at all in the bar, so I'm glad I didn't buy one for my project. The AP doesn't support some features that I'd think are requisite; SNMP, for example. The software can't export statistics or histories or logs.

 

[wizdum]

I ended up buying a Unifi AC Pro for my home to replace a really old D-Link commercial access point. It's nice having the new standards for performance -- my old AP didn't have MIMO, even.

The hardware is pretty, but I hide my AP under a dresser so I don't spend much time looking at it. The hardware clicks and makes noise, which is annoying and something it seems UniFi isn't going to fix. I had some trouble with the Controller software because of poor documentation and flakey config file parsing, but got trough that. There are lots of complaints about the software requiring the Windows firewall to be off, which is a valid concer considering it is written in Java. (I'm sure I can come up with a script to disable and pass through the involved ports ... but I still have to do so for JAVA.EXE, not the actual application.)

The controller software is a real PITA. You can only control an AP from one machine; you have to "adopt" the AP over. This wouldn't have worked out at all in the bar, so I'm glad I didn't buy one for my project. The AP doesn't support some features that I'd think are requisite; SNMP, for example. The software can't export statistics or histories or logs.

None of these are problems if you use the proper setup. The UniFi system isn't meant to replace a Linksys router, its meant to replace Cisco Aironet and Meraki APs. If you had dropped an additional $100 on a SFF PC that you could have used as a controller (or set up a controller "in the cloud") you would not have had any problems with accessing the controller, adopting APs, opening ports in the Windows Firewall, or getting stats though SNMP.

The noise issue is documented, I agree that they should fix it, but I'm not sure if its possible. I don't notice it because my APs are on the ceiling where they're supposed to be, not sitting on my desk.

You can get by fine without a controller if you don't need advanced features, but you want both advanced features and simplicity, which is not possible.

 

[/usr/home]

Yeah, they are meant for multi AP/multi site deployments.

The controller itself supports SNMP.

As I said in a different thread, Ubiquiti products are not for people that need hand holding. There's nothing wrong with needing help or hand holding, but generally speaking Ubiquiti doesn't make those types of products or have that type of support.

 

[Grentz]

The unifies are in a different league from normal consumer APs/routers. They do a fantastic job and I have deployed many with no issues and great performance increases.

Frankly the standard APs perform better than most of the expensive consumer grade N, MIMO, 450mbps, blah blah.

 

[mikeblas]

The noise issue is documented, I agree that they should fix it, but I'm not sure if its possible. I don't notice it because my APs are on the ceiling where they're supposed to be, not sitting on my desk.

Users have documented problems with ceiling-mount APs making audible noise; in that very thread, in fact. The products are also wall-mountable. The noise is certainly a fixable issue; overrated inductors or potted components will take care of it in short order.

You can get by fine without a controller if you don't need advanced features, but you want both advanced features and simplicity, which is not possible.

Of course it's possible! Ubiquiti made the decision to bake functionality into the controller software (to be run on a PC) rather than bake that functionality into the AP itself. It's understandable: they can drive costs down that way by providing less compute power in each AP. But that shifts work and inconvenience to the user.

Aside from those snags, I didn't have much trouble getting the unit up and running at home. There's no way I'd leave it at the bar, though; they'd be incapable of managing it and I'd be called back for every problem.

 

[remixedcat]

I've tested Fortinet, Aruba, Cisco Meraki, and I'm testing a couple from another brand right now.

Cisco Meraki: (tested Z1 and MX60W)
Pros: Excellent management software. Cloud hosted=No need for controllers. Good throughput. Very detailed client specs. Very thorough QoS controls. Rock solid performance
Cons: Can be pricey depending on configuration.

Aruba: (tested AP225 and testing RAP109 currently)
Pros: Excellent throughput and range. Can be configured to run in 3 different configs: Controller/Controllerless "instant"/and Cloud (like Meraki). All 3 are good and the RF tools are awesome. Excellent performance
Cons: Can be pricey and switching from one to the other requires conversion process. Can Not run the cloud and controller/instant at the same time it is one or the other.

Fortinet (not recommended for wireless): (Tested Fortiwifi 60D)
Pros: Robust management interface even has CPU and MEM usage stats, excellent firewall options (fortiwifi 60D tested) ,
Cons: Terrible wireless performance and flaky UI that crashes in firefox

 

[wizdum]

Users have documented problems with ceiling-mount APs making audible noise; in that very thread, in fact. The products are also wall-mountable. The noise is certainly a fixable issue; overrated inductors or potted components will take care of it in short order.

Of course it's possible! Ubiquiti made the decision to bake functionality into the controller software (to be run on a PC) rather than bake that functionality into the AP itself. It's understandable: they can drive costs down that way by providing less compute power in each AP. But that shifts work and inconvenience to the user.

Aside from those snags, I didn't have much trouble getting the unit up and running at home. There's no way I'd leave it at the bar, though; they'd be incapable of managing it and I'd be called back for every problem.

You're misunderstanding the intended use of the product. They didn't skip on a per device web UI to keep costs down, they did it because when you deploy 30 of these things in a building, you don't want to have to log into 30 separate devices to manage them. Its not an inconvenience, its a feature.

As was stated in that thread, some noise is normal for a switching PSU, but if you can hear it at a distance, it should be replaced.

 

[shabazkilla]

You're misunderstanding the intended use of the product. They didn't skip on a per device web UI to keep costs down, they did it because when you deploy 30 of these things in a building, you don't want to have to log into 30 separate devices to manage them. Its not an inconvenience, its a feature.

As was stated in that thread, some noise is normal for a switching PSU, but if you can hear it at a distance, it should be replaced.

Exactly. Try an enterprise deployment with hundreds, or even thousands of APs. You want a single pane of glass to configure and monitor them from. If you're solution calls for a single AP you should possibly look elsewhere for a stand-alone AP.