Windows Scores a Win Over Linux as Another State Decides to Switch

Megalith

Megalith

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Like Munich, the German state of Lower Saxony has decided that it too will migrate thousands of official computers away from Linux to Microsoft's Windows. The 13,000 workstations running OpenSuse will be transitioned to a "current version" of Windows, which probably means Windows 10.

The authority reasons that many of its field workers and telephone support services already use Windows, so standardization makes sense. An upgrade of some kind would in any case be necessary soon, as the PCs are running OpenSuse versions 12.2 and 13.2, neither of which is supported anymore.
 
Well, as long as the up-front cost of Windows licensing is less than the continued software/development support for OpenSUSE support, I could see that make sense to a point.
What really blows me away, and shows how inefficient these government agencies really are, is that OpenSUSE 12.2 went end-of-life in January 2014, and OpenSUSE 13.2 went end-of-life in January 2017.

That means those 13,000 workstations (and probably servers) have been totally unpatched for the last 1.5-4.5 years now - that is inexcusable for any OS branch. :meh:
This would be the equivalent to running 13,000 workstations and servers still running Windows XP and Server 2003R2, and now IT and the ruling government is just now thinking about upgrading... seriously, wtf.

To make a quote from the article:
"It is already apparent that the desired consolidation of the IT landscape is going in the wrong direction," said Mehl. "Instead of taking the chance to expand the existing infrastructure of Linux systems, the state voluntarily goes back into a cage of artificial dependencies from individual manufacturers."
Click to expand...
I see their governments really care about the taxpayers, and their basic computer security...
 
Last edited:
every windows version I ever installed said I was just leasing the software and that Microsoft can have it removed (now-a-days disable it remotely) so how, exactly, does that work for Federal and State and City PC's?
 
atmartens said:
Couldn't the same reasoning be applied to instead transition everything to Linux? I'm guessing Microsoft made someone an offer they couldn't refuse.
Click to expand...

My assumption, and its just that, is their telephone and field programs may not have Linux alternatives, while their Workstations may just need a generic mail program or Office/PDF/whatever suite.

Just my take on it.
 
Red Falcon said:
Well, as long as the up-front cost of Windows licensing is less than the continued software/development support for OpenSUSE support, I could see that make sense to a point.
What really blows me away, and shows how inefficient these government agencies really are, is that OpenSUSE 12.2 went end-of-life in January 2014, and OpenSUSE 13.2 went end-of-life in January 2017.

That means those 13,000 workstations (and probably servers) have been totally unpatched for the last 1.5-4.5 years now - that is inexcusable for any OS branch. :meh:
This would be the equivalent to running 13,000 workstations and servers still running Windows XP and Server 2003R2, and now IT and the ruling government is just now thinking about upgrading... seriously, wtf.

To make a quote from the article:

I see their governments really care about the taxpayers, and their basic computer security, in Germany... isn't Socialism great?! :whistle:
Click to expand...

Not saying I am a fan of it, but I'm not sure what socialism has to do with shitty IT update policies. Incompetence is everywhere and not limited based on govt. type. Equifax worked in a capitalist system, had an admin password of "password", and also didn't patch machines, which directly resulted in the breach of 140+ million peoples confidential information. If the logic you spouted holds, then it would be fair to say: "isn't capitalism great..."


In short, the logic you posted is embarrassingly and remarkably flawed.

references:
 
Too many companies (and governments) look at IT as a cost, not an investment.

It's like someone who owns a house or a car, but doesn't bother with any maintenance unless something breaks.
Then it's an emergency and costs significantly more to fix.
 
Megalith said:
the PCs are running OpenSuse versions 12.2 and 13.2, neither of which is supported anymore.
Click to expand...

Wait, but I heard Linux is so easy, free and is patched all the time?

Do they mean that they can't easily upgrade to the latest version of whatever OpenSuse means? what about other linux flavor? I heard that their file system is the best and most robust, so the migration should just be two clicks away (I mean 1'000,000 bash commands away with tons of errors and deprecated libraries)
 
TordanGow said:
Not saying I am a fan of it, but I'm not sure what socialism has to do with shitty IT update policies. Incompetence is everywhere and not limited based on govt. type. Equifax worked in a capitalist system, had an admin password of "password", and also didn't patch machines, which directly resulted in the breach of 140+ million peoples confidential information. If the logic you spouted holds, then it would be fair to say: "isn't capitalism great..."


In short, the logic you posted is embarrassingly and remarkably flawed.

references:
Click to expand...
I'm not going to get into a political debate, but the USA is basically a Socialist nation with crony-capitalism sprinkled throughout.
The USA hasn't been a capitalist country since the turn of the century, just FYI.

Incompetence is everywhere and not limited based on govt. type
Click to expand...
I will completely agree with you on this, though. (y)
 
ymer said:
Wait, but I heard Linux is so easy, free and is patched all the time?

Do they mean that they can't easily upgrade to the latest version of whatever OpenSuse means? what about other linux flavor? I heard that their file system is the best and most robust, so the migration should just be two clicks away (I mean 1'000,000 bash commands away with tons of errors and deprecated libraries)
Click to expand...
This has nothing to do with Linux in general, it has to do with how they haven't patched and/or upgraded their systems in years.
Every OS eventually has an end-of-life due to new technologies and software/APIs emerging - Windows 10 would potentially be the one paradigm shift in an OS that is constantly rolling, but we will see how long that will actually last - not for or against it, just saying that in general.

so the migration should just be two clicks away (I mean 1'000,000 bash commands away with tons of errors and deprecated libraries)
Click to expand...
If that is what one is having to do for their migration of a single OS, then they are doing something severely wrong.
 
Red Falcon said:
Well, as long as the up-front cost of Windows licensing is less than the continued software/development support for OpenSUSE support, I could see that make sense to a point.
What really blows me away, and shows how inefficient these government agencies really are, is that OpenSUSE 12.2 went end-of-life in January 2014, and OpenSUSE 13.2 went end-of-life in January 2017.

That means those 13,000 workstations (and probably servers) have been totally unpatched for the last 1.5-4.5 years now - that is inexcusable for any OS branch. :meh:
This would be the equivalent to running 13,000 workstations and servers still running Windows XP and Server 2003R2, and now IT and the ruling government is just now thinking about upgrading... seriously, wtf.

To make a quote from the article:

I see their governments really care about the taxpayers, and their basic computer security, in Germany... isn't Socialism great?! :whistle:
Click to expand...
Socialism? Lol wow. Say anything to feel vindicated I guess.
 
Red Falcon said:
Well, Germany is a socialist nation, so, what did I say that was wrong?
It wasn't so much meant as a cut on Germany as much as it was a cut on Socialism and the ineptness and agnosticism that it generates, as obvious by their decision - or in this case, the fact that they are years late on making the decision, and a lazy one at that.
Click to expand...


Where do you live and why do you think that Germany is a Socialist Nation?
 
TordanGow said:
Not saying I am a fan of it, but I'm not sure what socialism has to do with shitty IT update policies. Incompetence is everywhere and not limited based on govt. type. Equifax worked in a capitalist system, had an admin password of "password", and also didn't patch machines, which directly resulted in the breach of 140+ million peoples confidential information. If the logic you spouted holds, then it would be fair to say: "isn't capitalism great..."


In short, the logic you posted is embarrassingly and remarkably flawed.

references:
Click to expand...
I was gonna say, choosing the entrenched closed source capitalist option over the open source free option = socialism? I think some people use that word to mean whatever they want now.
 
_l_ said:
every windows version I ever installed said I was just leasing the software and that Microsoft can have it removed (now-a-days disable it remotely) so how, exactly, does that work for Federal and State and City PC's?
Click to expand...

LOL! :D :rolleyes:
 
bb_forrest said:
Where do you live and why do you think that Germany is a Socialist Nation?
Click to expand...

It's doesn't matter what form of government it is.

Short sighted decisions are a hallmark of any form of government, they all suffer from it. As long as you have lazy, corrupt or incompetent people somewhere in the decision chain, things like this are going to happen.
 
Red Falcon said:
Well, as long as the up-front cost of Windows licensing is less than the continued software/development support for OpenSUSE support, I could see that make sense to a point.
What really blows me away, and shows how inefficient these government agencies really are, is that OpenSUSE 12.2 went end-of-life in January 2014, and OpenSUSE 13.2 went end-of-life in January 2017.

That means those 13,000 workstations (and probably servers) have been totally unpatched for the last 1.5-4.5 years now - that is inexcusable for any OS branch. :meh:
This would be the equivalent to running 13,000 workstations and servers still running Windows XP and Server 2003R2, and now IT and the ruling government is just now thinking about upgrading... seriously, wtf.
Click to expand...

In a city I know government is using ancient Windows XP. The only modernity is on IE replaced by some more recent version of FF or Chrome and OpenOffice is installed. Apparently no one has the idea of replacing the OS by some modern linux distro. I even doubt anyone here knows that linux there exist.

Red Falcon said:
To make a quote from the article:

I see their governments really care about the taxpayers, and their basic computer security, in Germany... isn't Socialism great?! :whistle:
Click to expand...

Germany is socialist? I believed Merkel's Party is just the contrary of socialism.

This replacement of linux boxes by Windows boxes recalls what happened during the ridiculous approval of Microsoft Open Document Format as standard. Capitalism in its full glory!
 
ymer said:
Wait, but I heard Linux is so easy, free and is patched all the time?
Click to expand...

You heard it correctly.

ymer said:
Do they mean that they can't easily upgrade to the latest version of whatever OpenSuse means? what about other linux flavor? I heard that their file system is the best and most robust, so the migration should just be two clicks away (I mean 1'000,000 bash commands away with tons of errors and deprecated libraries)
Click to expand...

Upgrading to W10 is less easy.
 
juanrga said:
Germany is socialist? I believed Merkel's Party is just the contrary of socialism.
Click to expand...
Germany is no more socialist than the US. Even china is more capitalist by now than socialist. The only difference between communist and capitalist countries these days is that one openly admits who is in charge, while the other pretends that it is run by politicians, when in reality it is run by corporate interests.
 
What I didn't see mentioned is whether the current OS/Application setup is getting the job done. So many folks go "Oh Crap, that OS is 10 years old, it is out out date......." and totally overlook that it might be doing the needed job perfectly. The OS isn't a shiny new toy to fawn over, it is, or should be, a mostly unseen backbone to allow running of needed applications. One of the oft mentioned benefits of open source is the ability to roll your own if needed. Why wasn't Lower Saxony creating and deploying their own security updates? Or paying someone to do it for them? Another not mentioned benefit of NOT changing for a long time is folks have figured out how to use what they have to get the job done. Minimizes training costs and replacing peripheral equipment that might not be supported in a newer version of software/hardware. How many parallel printer port printers will be pitched and replaced because the new PCs won't have a parallel port?

Wonder if they are getting a version of Win 10 that allows disabling of most telemetry (aka China version) and allows a less frequent update cycle?
 
M76 said:
Germany is no more socialist than the US.
Click to expand...
Well that's not really true. They have socialized medicine, plus they also require least a third of the board of directors of major companies to be elected by the workers. Those are two major differences that are distinctively less capitalist than the US. Now saying those things make it a socialist country I think is a stretch, but to say it's no more than the US I think is incorrect.
 
tetris42 said:
Well that's not really true. They have socialized medicine, plus they also require least a third of the board of directors of major companies to be elected by the workers. Those are two major differences that are distinctively less capitalist than the US. Now saying those things make it a socialist country I think is a stretch, but to say it's no more than the US I think is incorrect.
Click to expand...
According to what I found out about it, is that Germany is now classified as a "full Democracy", and is no longer classified as a Socialist nation circa 2005, even though they do have, like you stated, socialized medicine.
Apparently they just voted to never upgrade their systems' OS until it was far too late...

But, you know what they say, "A Democracy will vote itself out of existence." - Star Wars Episode III proved that:

712.png


And we know how well that turned out for their system and data security regarding the plans for the Death Star...

rogue-one-death-star-plans-trailer-data-tape.jpg


Cheers! :D
 
I'm trying really hard not to jump into the political conversation here so I'll just say this - anyone trying to indite "socialism" here is way off the mark for a wide variety of reasons.

Furthermore, this particular instance is actually nothing new - it was reported on in the past this is just finalizing it etc, so its not a "new" blow against Linux or evidence of a changing mindset etc.. The fact is that Microsoft built major facilities nearby (Munich is one of their biggest EU headquarters / tech centers etc..) and basically swung their wallet around with a "you're going to do us a favor" implications to confirm the deal and keep the investment coming, not to mention much of the supposed data for the "savings" justified here came out of a Microsoft-backed consultancy firm (the article mentions this) . It also worth mentioning that elsewhere in Germany and the EU Linux adoption is rising for public systems and it has been going very well.

Its a pity that Munich has (on the back of a corporate-friendly consultant) decided it would be cheaper to purchase a lot of new Microsoft software instead of invest that money in expanding Linux to reach the outlying aspects/modernizing noted in the article which a number of (outside) analyses have proven would be far cheaper and more effective. I remember an earlier article about this discussing it in relation to politics - not so much differing social or economic systems, but rather simply old and new, with the new (ostensibly Microsoft friendly) administration pushing for changes to the Linux platform implemented by the last administration, upending it instead of allowing it to complete. So corporate influence plus not-invented-here-ism seem to be responsible.
 
tetris42 said:
Well that's not really true. They have socialized medicine, plus they also require least a third of the board of directors of major companies to be elected by the workers. Those are two major differences that are distinctively less capitalist than the US. Now saying those things make it a socialist country I think is a stretch, but to say it's no more than the US I think is incorrect.
Click to expand...
Medicine is only free to people who are paying their social insurance fees. So the only difference is that there is state medical insurance, and not just private ones. But this is similar in most european countries, and none of them are socialist countries. And voting corporate representatives in only a pretence. There is usually only one real candidate. When we used to vote on representatives we were told beforehand who we needed to vote in. It's safe to say there is no socialism in practice anywhere in the world, and never was.
 
ymer said:
Wait, but I heard Linux is so easy, free and is patched all the time?

Do they mean that they can't easily upgrade to the latest version of whatever OpenSuse means? what about other linux flavor? I heard that their file system is the best and most robust, so the migration should just be two clicks away (I mean 1'000,000 bash commands away with tons of errors and deprecated libraries)
Click to expand...

It is, but unlike Windows, Linux does not shutdown whatever programs you are using so it can force shutdown your PC and update it without asking. You actually have to click the update button in Linux.

For example, to upgrade from Ubuntu 16.04 to 18.04, the Update Manager will pop up a little window letting you know that 18.04 is available, and you can just click a button to have it upgrade. If you want to do it from the command line, you can, but its not 1,000,000 bash commands, its three:

apt-get update # to make sure the list of available updates is current
apt-get dist-upgrade # to install all available updates
do-release-upgrade # to upgrade from 16.04 to 18.04

I am not as familiar with SUSE as I am Ubuntu, but I do know that SUSE has a rolling release called "Tumbleweed" that handles updates similarly to Windows 10, smaller point releases rather than large upgrades. A quick Google search shows that upgrading OpenSUSE 12 can be done using the "zypper dup" command.

If their offices run anything like ours in the States, it wouldn't surprise me if this was typical government bullshit. Someone spent big money setting up a system 10 years ago, and no one budgeted for upgrades or software maintenance. Our state recently just turned on SSL encryption for their credit card processing web page. It took them 6 months to roll out the update, because simply enabling SSL on the payment processing website prevented half of the municipalities in the state from being able to access it. Their ancient computers didn't support modern SSL versions, and couldn't render anything. The giant VisualBasic/MS Access monstrosity that most towns use for managing records and processing vehicle registrations had never heard of SSL, period, and just choked and died.
 
wizdum said:
It is, but unlike Windows, Linux does not shutdown whatever programs you are using so it can force shutdown your PC and update it without asking. You actually have to click the update button in Linux.

For example, to upgrade from Ubuntu 16.04 to 18.04, the Update Manager will pop up a little window letting you know that 18.04 is available, and you can just click a button to have it upgrade. If you want to do it from the command line, you can, but its not 1,000,000 bash commands, its three:

apt-get update # to make sure the list of available updates is current
apt-get dist-upgrade # to install all available updates
do-release-upgrade # to upgrade from 16.04 to 18.04

I am not as familiar with SUSE as I am Ubuntu, but I do know that SUSE has a rolling release called "Tumbleweed" that handles updates similarly to Windows 10, smaller point releases rather than large upgrades. A quick Google search shows that upgrading OpenSUSE 12 can be done using the "zypper dup" command.

If their offices run anything like ours in the States, it wouldn't surprise me if this was typical government bullshit. Someone spent big money setting up a system 10 years ago, and no one budgeted for upgrades or software maintenance. Our state recently just turned on SSL encryption for their credit card processing web page. It took them 6 months to roll out the update, because simply enabling SSL on the payment processing website prevented half of the municipalities in the state from being able to access it. Their ancient computers didn't support modern SSL versions, and couldn't render anything. The giant VisualBasic/MS Access monstrosity that most towns use for managing records and processing vehicle registrations had never heard of SSL, period, and just choked and died.
Click to expand...

And that’s what you’re going to get with governments. They want everything battletested, and with all the red tape, forget trying to have software newer than 2 years old.

That’s one of the areas rolling releases with a low end of life support just won’t work. With government work, you need at minimum 10 years of support, because you’ll be lucky to acquire the hardware and software 5 years in.
 
Nytegard said:
And that’s what you’re going to get with governments. They want everything battletested, and with all the red tape, forget trying to have software newer than 2 years old.

That’s one of the areas rolling releases with a low end of life support just won’t work. With government work, you need at minimum 10 years of support, because you’ll be lucky to acquire the hardware and software 5 years in.
Click to expand...

We still have to use dot matrix printers for sales tax forms, and there's no estimate for when we can retire them. We were using them for vehicle registrations as well until last year. I have brand new dot matrix printers, still in factory packaging, in case one of them breaks.
 
wizdum said:
It is, but unlike Windows, Linux does not shutdown whatever programs you are using so it can force shutdown your PC and update it without asking. You actually have to click the update button in Linux.
Click to expand...
In a half-way properly managed corporate network, the end user does not have any control over updates, the IT infrastructure does, and if they are using Windows Enterprise licenses, the IT management has full control over updates. Your argument only applies to home systems.
 
jardows said:
In a half-way properly managed corporate network, the end user does not have any control over updates, the IT infrastructure does, and if they are using Windows Enterprise licenses, the IT management has full control over updates. Your argument only applies to home systems.
Click to expand...

Yeah, tell that to r/sysadmin, when Microsoft changes the way to restrict updates every other month, and candy crush saga gets installed anyway.

But if you're going to be pedantic, "The Sysadmin/Configuration Management Software has to install the update in Linux". Better?

If the current admins couldn't update their existing computers, what makes you think they can update the new ones? Thats if the city even has Sysadmins.
 
wizdum said:
It is, but unlike Windows, Linux does not shutdown whatever programs you are using so it can force shutdown your PC and update it without asking. You actually have to click the update button in Linux.

For example, to upgrade from Ubuntu 16.04 to 18.04, the Update Manager will pop up a little window letting you know that 18.04 is available, and you can just click a button to have it upgrade.
Click to expand...

I don't know about Ubuntu now, but in other distros you even can disable the alerts. So you don't get the continuous drip of alerts when some new package is available.
 
Red Falcon said:
Well, as long as the up-front cost of Windows licensing is less than the continued software/development support for OpenSUSE support, I could see that make sense to a point.
What really blows me away, and shows how inefficient these government agencies really are, is that OpenSUSE 12.2 went end-of-life in January 2014, and OpenSUSE 13.2 went end-of-life in January 2017.

That means those 13,000 workstations (and probably servers) have been totally unpatched for the last 1.5-4.5 years now - that is inexcusable for any OS branch. :meh:
This would be the equivalent to running 13,000 workstations and servers still running Windows XP and Server 2003R2, and now IT and the ruling government is just now thinking about upgrading... seriously, wtf.

To make a quote from the article:

I see their governments really care about the taxpayers, and their basic computer security...
Click to expand...

Part of the problem with upgrading and patching systems in government realms is the verification and certification processes required. Most of these are based on old outdated models that require long arduous testing runs on very specific versions of software before they can be accredited. And then the government usually has some stupid clause on only using accredited versions. This becomes especially difficult for Linux as different parts of the system have different versions. Your kernel has a version, your distro has a version, the window manager has a version. Because of how they package or bundle these they get seen differently than Windows where they just view the overall package as a version (even though it also has internal package versions).

This is a common issue with RHEL as well, there are still a lot of RHEL 6.7 versions floating out there. In addition to that madness, RH certs are only good for the current version of RHEL. So an admin that requires a cert to maintain their CE status with the government, needs to keep getting a new RHEL cert each release... Like somehow they have forgotten how to administer Linux entirely from RHEL 7 to RHEL 8 in a matter of days...

_l_ said:
every windows version I ever installed said I was just leasing the software and that Microsoft can have it removed (now-a-days disable it remotely) so how, exactly, does that work for Federal and State and City PC's?
Click to expand...

Different rules for different folks. Government agreements usually have their own clause about rights that trump the normal software agreements.
 
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