Windows: Linux Can't Touch This

[fragalot]

Never had a problem with it on Windows. But like I said, nn Kubuntu for example, if you uncheck it (which you have to somehow know that you need to open the console and execute alsamixer and uncheck it), Kmix (by default) will just recheck it for you, which sucks. You can change Kmix though, but it's a bad default.

Just to say something..

If you install the Realtek HD drivers, you're STUCK with their crummy configuration interface.
finding the "mic boost" option is in the weirdest spot ever,
windows' built-in sound config doesn't work anymore for recording (sliders are disabled),

It's things like this that make arguments like yours useless.
you're complaining about 3rd party software, which just happens to ship with ubuntu, just like it would if you bought a store computer with the drivers pre-installed.

atleast in ubuntu you get the choise to kick that software out and replace it with something that DOES work right.

 

[AVT]

That depends on the distro. Ubuntu, Fedora and a few others have wireless configuration GUI's. I have a Atheros chipset and can configure it using a gui.

How do you create an access point using a GUI?

 

[kac77]

How do you create an access point using a GUI?

Wasn't talking about configuring an access point. I was talking about wireless access to an access point.

 

[kac77]

Wasn't talking about configuring an access point. I was talking about wireless access to an access point.

If you are talking about configuring your wireless card to connect to an access point. The Interface can be found right next to the clock on the top bar.

 

[AVT]

If you are talking about configuring your wireless card to connect to an access point. The Interface can be found right next to the clock on the top bar.

No, I was referring to creating an access point. Not everyone uses their wireless card for merely connecting. Atheros drivers support AP mode. Don't know what distro you're referring to, but YaST, the configuration utility in openSUSE, also supports AP mode.

Except... you have to go through madwifi's configuration utility to enable it. For example, it SHOULD work is this:

iwconfig ath0 mode master

Instead you have to do this:

wlanconfig ath0 destroy
wlanconfig ath0 create wlandev wifi0 wlanmode ap
iwconfig ath0 mode master

The GUI won't run the first two commands for you.

 

[Saist]

Linux not a gaming platform.

\thread.

really. mind telling me which Operating System underpins both the Playstation 2 and Playstation 3 gaming platforms? And according to a couple of IBM engineers, can also be used as a development enviroment and production platform for the the Nintendo Wii?

It's Linux.

Like it or not, Linux IS a gaming platform, and has been so since the launch of the PS2. It's rather nice to see game developers and publishers panic when it's brought up that they use Linux extensively for console and server development... but never can quite put 2 and 2 together that if you have the server to run a game... you probably also want to run the game client on the same platform...

Oh, not to mention that x86 servers dominate the gaming industry as well.

Nice try at trolling though.

 

[Scali2]

As far as I know, you can run linux on a PS2, but it's not THE operating system of the PS2.
The PS2 doesn't really have an operating system as such, just a bunch of standard libraries from the Sony SDK. A game console doesn't really need an operating system anyway, you only run one application (game) at a time. So the line between operating system and application is very vague. Especially on older consoles like the PS2, developers tend to 'bang on the bare metal' rather than using an OS or libraries, to get the most out of the rather modest and pretty peculiar hardware.

Don't think for a second that PS2 games use OpenGL. The graphics chip in the PS2 is far too limited and weird to support standard OpenGL effectively.

 

[kac77]

No, I was referring to creating an access point. Not everyone uses their wireless card for merely connecting. Atheros drivers support AP mode. Don't know what distro you're referring to, but YaST, the configuration utility in openSUSE, also supports AP mode.

Except... you have to go through madwifi's configuration utility to enable it. For example, it SHOULD work is this:

iwconfig ath0 mode master

Instead you have to do this:

wlanconfig ath0 destroy
wlanconfig ath0 create wlandev wifi0 wlanmode ap
iwconfig ath0 mode master

The GUI won't run the first two commands for you.

The ability to create access points in Windows is barely supported natively, if at all without going to the registry. We aren't talking about AD-Hoc mode here. It's completely defendant on the device manufacturer whether they will allow that feature to be active or not via a GUI regardless of whether the chipset supports it or not.

The fact that you can turn a regular ubuntu install into a wireless access point with firewall and all would make me happy regardless of whether i was using a command line or not.

 

[eeyrjmr]

As far as I know, you can run linux on a PS2, but it's not THE operating system of the PS2.
The PS2 doesn't really have an operating system as such, just a bunch of standard libraries from the Sony SDK. A game console doesn't really need an operating system anyway, you only run one application (game) at a time. So the line between operating system and application is very vague. Especially on older consoles like the PS2, developers tend to 'bang on the bare metal' rather than using an OS or libraries, to get the most out of the rather modest and pretty peculiar hardware.

Don't think for a second that PS2 games use OpenGL. The graphics chip in the PS2 is far too limited and weird to support standard OpenGL effectively.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3065/tool_postmortem_ubi_soft_.php
http://playstation2-linux.com/projects/openglstuff/

yer... the PS2 GFX chipset can't support OGL...
OGL is just a spec, a driver is the key

 

[Scali2]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3065/tool_postmortem_ubi_soft_.php
http://playstation2-linux.com/projects/openglstuff/

yer... the PS2 GFX chipset can't support OGL...
OGL is just a spec, a driver is the key

What I'm saying is that regular OGL code won't be able to run efficiently on the PS2's GFX chip.
Porting an OGL-based game from PC to PS2 would be suicide in terms of performance.

I should know, a friend of mine worked on PS2 renderers for various DICE games. He told me how they rolled their own renderers for their games.
No decent PS2 game uses OpenGL, they all access the gfx chip directly, with custom EE code for fast T&L.

 

[eeyrjmr]

What I'm saying is that regular OGL code won't be able to run efficiently on the PS2's GFX chip.
Porting an OGL-based game from PC to PS2 would be suicide in terms of performance.

I should know, a friend of mine worked on PS2 renderers for various DICE games. He told me how they rolled their own renderers for their games.
No decent PS2 game uses OpenGL, they all access the gfx chip directly, with custom EE code for fast T&L.

...
http://www.idsoftware.com/games/consoles/quake3-revolution/

gosh an openGL game on the PS2 ...
the GPU in the PS2 might not be able todo hardware rendering again say... OGL1.2 BUT to say that the PS2 GPU can't do OGL is a very big stretch

 

[Scali2]

...
http://www.idsoftware.com/games/consoles/quake3-revolution/

gosh an openGL game on the PS2 ...
the GPU in the PS2 might not be able todo hardware rendering again say... OGL1.2 BUT to say that the PS2 GPU can't do OGL is a very big stretch

I said it doesn't support OpenGL *effectively*, as in performance won't be anywhere near the maximum that the gfx chip is capable of. Which is the reason why hardly any games use it, and use a custom renderer instead.

 

[swatbat]

really. mind telling me which Operating System underpins both the Playstation 2 and Playstation 3 gaming platforms? And according to a couple of IBM engineers, can also be used as a development enviroment and production platform for the the Nintendo Wii?

It's Linux.

Like it or not, Linux IS a gaming platform, and has been so since the launch of the PS2. It's rather nice to see game developers and publishers panic when it's brought up that they use Linux extensively for console and server development... but never can quite put 2 and 2 together that if you have the server to run a game... you probably also want to run the game client on the same platform...

Oh, not to mention that x86 servers dominate the gaming industry as well.

Nice try at trolling though.

I wouldn't call the comment trolling. The person making it had a point. Linux is not a gamming platform as far as your normal end user is concerned. Also was the ps2's os based off linux? I know the dev platform ran it and sony did release a linux kit for it. I don't remember them ever saying the systems os was based off it though(I could be wrong on this). Sega and others also have linux running on some of their arcade machines(some run windows ce or xpe instead).

The OS that consoles and arcade machines run on means nothing for the end user though as they are never in the os. When people talk about linux and gaming they are talking about PC gaming. This is where it counts. Same way as end users don't care that the xbox os was based off windows 2000.

 

[kllrnohj]

As far as I know, you can run linux on a PS2, but it's not THE operating system of the PS2.
The PS2 doesn't really have an operating system as such, just a bunch of standard libraries from the Sony SDK. A game console doesn't really need an operating system anyway, you only run one application (game) at a time. So the line between operating system and application is very vague. Especially on older consoles like the PS2, developers tend to 'bang on the bare metal' rather than using an OS or libraries, to get the most out of the rather modest and pretty peculiar hardware.

Don't think for a second that PS2 games use OpenGL. The graphics chip in the PS2 is far too limited and weird to support standard OpenGL effectively.

They still have OSes. Even the PS1 had an OS of sorts (although it is more of a cross between a boot loader and a firmware, but whatever ). And the line is not vague at all. The OS has the drivers for all the hardware, does memory management, and does task switching (perhaps not on the PS2, but definitely on newer consoles). Games run on top of the OS (for current gen consoles anyway, not so much for older ones)

And just because the chip is weird doesn't mean it doesn't support OpenGL. The way real time graphics are rendered is pretty standard, and OpenGL simply states how to interface with the hardware from a high level (as in render that set of polygons over there). The GPU in the PS2 can definitely support standard OpenGL effectively - if it couldn't it would mean it is just a crappy/slow GPU to begin with.

Regardless, the PS2 was widely considered a huge PIA to program for. The PS3 uses a modified OpenGL, the Wii uses OpenGL as well, and the 360 uses DirectX 9.0c.

What I'm saying is that regular OGL code won't be able to run efficiently on the PS2's GFX chip.
Porting an OGL-based game from PC to PS2 would be suicide in terms of performance.

I should know, a friend of mine worked on PS2 renderers for various DICE games. He told me how they rolled their own renderers for their games.
No decent PS2 game uses OpenGL, they all access the gfx chip directly, with custom EE code for fast T&L.

Its not that OGL can't run efficiently on the PS2's GPU, its that towards they end of its life squeezing out performance to one-up the competition outweighed easier development. OGL adds overhead on all platforms. Just like .NET and Java add overhead. However, the advantages afforded by higher level technologies and languages often outweigh the speed impact, especially since hardware continues to get faster.

That said, I'm not really sure what any of this has to do with Linux...

 

[kllrnohj]

I wouldn't call the comment trolling. The person making it had a point. Linux is not a gamming platform as far as your normal end user is concerned./QUOTE]

True, but only because there aren't many games available for Linux. It has nothing to do with Linux not being able to play games, not being game programmer friendly, or any technical reason like that. OpenGL and OpenAL both run just fine on Linux. Its simply a matter of market share. Pretty much the same reason there aren't games on OS X.

 

[AVT]

The ability to create access points in Windows is barely supported natively, if at all without going to the registry. We aren't talking about AD-Hoc mode here. It's completely defendant on the device manufacturer whether they will allow that feature to be active or not via a GUI regardless of whether the chipset supports it or not.

The fact that you can turn a regular ubuntu install into a wireless access point with firewall and all would make me happy regardless of whether i was using a command line or not.

Where was I comparing anything to Windows? In Windows, you just install the card manufacturer's own utility, which usually allows AP mode. Even Realtek supports it.

The problem is in Linux, the drivers are simply not, for the most part, advanced enough to do anything else other than merely connect, or not even available in the first place. Hence why I say, with the exception of Atheros-based cards, Linux wireless support is pretty bad.

Hopefully, though, the situation will be a lot better within a year, as there's recently been a lot of development in the general area, with new drivers such as ath5k.

 

[Scali2]

They still have OSes. Even the PS1 had an OS of sorts (although it is more of a cross between a boot loader and a firmware, but whatever ). And the line is not vague at all. The OS has the drivers for all the hardware, does memory management, and does task switching (perhaps not on the PS2, but definitely on newer consoles). Games run on top of the OS (for current gen consoles anyway, not so much for older ones)

Well, back in the Amiga days we generally didn't even load the OS at all. We used nearly all hardware directly, even including disk reading routines. Consoles aren't really different... There isn't too much of an OS present in the rom/firmware itself, and you can choose to either use the libraries on your own CD/DVD/whatever media, or just 'roll your own' instead.
There is no need for things like task switching and memory management in a game. You have only one application, and that is your game. Therefore, your game can use all memory in the system, and no management is required, outside the basic management inside your game itself. You don't need fancy things like virtual address spaces, or swapping or anything. It's a fully controlled environment. You always know exactly how much memory the system has, and you always know exactly how much you need, because you are the only application running. That's what I meant by the line being vague.

Newer consoles can get away with more 'conventional' OSes/libraries/management etc, but a PS2 isn't such a console.

And just because the chip is weird doesn't mean it doesn't support OpenGL. The way real time graphics are rendered is pretty standard, and OpenGL simply states how to interface with the hardware from a high level (as in render that set of polygons over there). The GPU in the PS2 can definitely support standard OpenGL effectively - if it couldn't it would mean it is just a crappy/slow GPU to begin with.

Then it is a crappy/slow GPU by your standards.
Thing is, the gfx chip in the PS2 has no hardware T&L or anything, and very limited shading and texture filtering. It's basically good in only one thing: fillrate. Therefore PS2 games tend to just use massive multipass techniques to get their effects. With regular OpenGL and standard PC GPUs you tend to have more fancy blend operations (or even programmable shaders), and multitexturing, so you tend to do more in a single pass, which the PS2 simply cannot do.

Regardless, the PS2 was widely considered a huge PIA to program for. The PS3 uses a modified OpenGL, the Wii uses OpenGL as well, and the 360 uses DirectX 9.0c.

Yes, but those all use more or less standard GPUs based on the same chips used in PCs, and as such were designed to run OpenGL/Direct3D. The PS2 doesn't have such a chip.

That said, I'm not really sure what any of this has to do with Linux...

Well, someone made the point that the PS2 somehow is a linux gaming machine. Firstly the PS2 doesn't run linux (unless you use that special kit that Sony was selling), and secondly, unlike linux games on PC, the PS2 doesn't use OpenGL. So indeed, the PS2 has nothing to do with linux, at least as far as gaming goes.

 

[eeyrjmr]

Where was I comparing anything to Windows? In Windows, you just install the card manufacturer's own utility, which usually allows AP mode. Even Realtek supports it.

The problem is in Linux, the drivers are simply not, for the most part, advanced enough to do anything else other than merely connect, or not even available in the first place. Hence why I say, with the exception of Atheros-based cards, Linux wireless support is pretty bad.

Hopefully, though, the situation will be a lot better within a year, as there's recently been a lot of development in the general area, with new drivers such as ath5k.

since when is the role of a driver (no matter what OS) to deal with such things?
THAT is the role of the useland app. NOT all windows wireless driver installers come with such frontend (RaLink's dont) So is this a fault of Window or the OEM?

Plus is this really a common thing for a windows/linux user todo?
You are trying to compare linux to windows and ragging on linux where it doesn't do things the same

A GUI is only worth it if things are done alot... since setting up an AP is something you may do once and then BAMB it is done it is left in the shell in linux. You could easily wrap a python+pyGTK app around it in ~30min if you /really/ wanted

or open a bug in launchpad for ubuntu requesting it, you never know you may get it if a dev likes the idea

 

[kllrnohj]

Well, back in the Amiga days we generally didn't even load the OS at all. We used nearly all hardware directly, even including disk reading routines. Consoles aren't really different... There isn't too much of an OS present in the rom/firmware itself, and you can choose to either use the libraries on your own CD/DVD/whatever media, or just 'roll your own' instead.
There is no need for things like task switching and memory management in a game. You have only one application, and that is your game. Therefore, your game can use all memory in the system, and no management is required, outside the basic management inside your game itself. You don't need fancy things like virtual address spaces, or swapping or anything. It's a fully controlled environment. You always know exactly how much memory the system has, and you always know exactly how much you need, because you are the only application running. That's what I meant by the line being vague.

Newer consoles can get away with more 'conventional' OSes/libraries/management etc, but a PS2 isn't such a console.

I only meant the newer consoles - all of which do have an OS. The PS3 and Xbox360 both even allow multiple tasks and need task switching (such as background downloading, or listening to music while playing a game, etc...)

Then it is a crappy/slow GPU by your standards.
Thing is, the gfx chip in the PS2 has no hardware T&L or anything, and very limited shading and texture filtering. It's basically good in only one thing: fillrate. Therefore PS2 games tend to just use massive multipass techniques to get their effects. With regular OpenGL and standard PC GPUs you tend to have more fancy blend operations (or even programmable shaders), and multitexturing, so you tend to do more in a single pass, which the PS2 simply cannot do.

Didn't know that, cool

 

[eeyrjmr]

AND in the case of a RaLink card... how would you AVT setup an AP? you probably couldn't in windows BECAUSE MS has stripped out virtually all low-level access to the OS

 

[kac77]

Where was I comparing anything to Windows? In Windows, you just install the card manufacturer's own utility, which usually allows AP mode. Even Realtek supports it.

The thread is called :Windows Linux can't touch this. If you aren't comparing it to Windows then what OS are you comparing it to? I don't know why you are posting. I'm just responding to you from your post which stated this:

Second, even if your card is Atheros-based, you still have to go through their own utility to configure anything (wlanconfig), which is command line only - making any GUIs otherwise used for config, such as YaST, useless. For most people, this is unacceptable.

I and others have stated. That setting up a AP in Windows A) isn't supported natively without hitting the registry, or B)hoping that the manufacturer's utility includes the functionality, which they all don't do, even when the chipset supports it. I have a Atheros chipset and I can tell you flat out that the utility for this card does not make the functionality available to you (under Windows) without setting keys in the registry and doing more than a few other things to get that functionality to work because the utility does not include the functionality.

The problem is in Linux, the drivers are simply not, for the most part, advanced enough to do anything else other than merely connect, or not even available in the first place. Hence why I say, with the exception of Atheros-based cards, Linux wireless support is pretty bad.

That's all the average user is looking for the most part is to just connect. If your wireless card is working, you most likely will be able to do both infrastructure or ad-hoc other than that what else is there? I can pretty much say that the "average" user is definitely not setting up their own access point using their home computer... come on now lets be honest here.

I will concede that wireless definitely needs work. However, if you use this guide:
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/WirelessCardsSupported

It's going to be kind of hard not get your wireless card to work in some shape or form.

Hopefully, though, the situation will be a lot better within a year, as there's recently been a lot of development in the general area, with new drivers such as ath5k.

I agree. There is a lot of development dealing with wireless and 3G connections. This past release while not perfect did add 3G tethering which is a god send if you are on the go with a laptop.

 

[AVT]

since when is the role of a driver (no matter what OS) to deal with such things?
THAT is the role of the useland app.

Wait, what?

I was speaking about that strictly in terms of Windows, where Microsoft did not provide a GUI that could work with AP mode. Various manufacturers simply chose to have someone write one.

NOT all windows wireless driver installers come with such frontend (RaLink's dont) So is this a fault of Window or the OEM?

Ralink's installer DOES come with such a frontend. Or, at least, the one in my P4 system is Ralink based, and does.

Plus is this really a common thing for a windows/linux user todo?

I was using AP mode as an example.

You are trying to compare linux to windows and ragging on linux where it doesn't do things the same

I am comparing Windows driver support and Linux driver support. Almost all Windows drivers DO support AP mode, almost all Linux drivers DON'T, and the one that does does so through it's own utility.

But since you mention it, this is actually a place where Linux and Windows DO do things the same. Windows has a wireless configuration utility. Linux (or openSUSE at least) has a wireless configuration utility. My problem is lack of driver support, not "differences" between Windows and Linux. Your argument is not even relevant to what I am saying.

A GUI is only worth it if things are done alot... since setting up an AP is something you may do once and then BAMB it is done it is left in the shell in linux. You could easily wrap a python+pyGTK app around it in ~30min if you /really/ wanted

A GUI is also worth it if you're not familiar with the specific commands used to set up something like that, but are familiar with what you're looking to accomplish. Also, it prevents you from having to re-do everything upon system reboot, but that's another argument that I'd really like to not start here.

Someone familiar with the languages could probably write it in ~30min.

Not everyone is. I, for example, am not, the last serious programming I've done was years ago. Believe me, after the amount of time I have gone through to get all my stuff working, if I could, I'd have written a GUI purely so other people do not have to go through the same problems.

or open a bug in launchpad for ubuntu requesting it, you never know you may get it if a dev likes the idea

This is for programs being actively developed. Madwifi, from my example, IIRC, is now considered legacy, with the newer ath5k driver being currently developed. Unfortunately, AP mode does not work in it, yet.

 

[AVT]

The thread is called :Windows Linux can't touch this. If you aren't comparing it to Windows then what OS are you comparing it to? I don't know why you are posting. I'm just responding to you from your post which stated this:

I was responding to a post claiming that Linux driver support is perfectly fine.

I and others have stated. That setting up a AP in Windows A) isn't supported natively without hitting the registry, or B)hoping that the manufacturer's utility includes the functionality, which they all don't do, even when the chipset supports it. I have a Atheros chipset and I can tell you flat out that the utility for this card does not make the functionality available to you (under Windows) without setting keys in the registry and doing more than a few other things to get that functionality to work because the utility does not include the functionality.

Yes, however, I'm speaking about the driver, not the GUI. Realtek and Ralink drivers support AP mode in Windows. They do not support it in Linux.

That's all the average user is looking for the most part is to just connect. If your wireless card is working, you most likely will be able to do both infrastructure or ad-hoc other than that what else is there? I can pretty much say that the "average" user is definitely not setting up their own access point using their home computer... come on now lets be honest here.

Well, yes, but, I was just using it as an example. There's other stuff like WPA that some people have had problems with, however, I can't speak for recently. I was speaking about AP mode as it's the feature that I'm most familiar with at this moment.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Huh? iPhone is based on Mac OS X. Mac OS X is based on Unix. Unix != Linux. As the saying goes, Linux is not Unix.

Microsoft's Windows Mobile platform was until recently the absolute best handheld operating system. It's still the best for mobile productivity and media playback. Android's main problem lies in Java. iPhone's problem lies in the fact that it is not as open as the other two for developers to make free software.

.

LOL you have got to be kidding me. JAVA is a great platform to work in and the one that MOST mobile devices still use to this day mate. C# copied java

if you know java, you more or less know c#

 

[Conker]

If linux supported more games then i would gladly jump on board. I don't think we'll see a real change though like what the article said. If opengl took off more then we'd probably see more some games on linux. I know a lot of people that don't use linux for that reason alone, the games.

 

[Shadow2531]

Regardless of you making a mountain out of a mole hill, find me the bug in launchpad. Because what you linked was for previous versions.

The bug I linked to also shows the associated kernel bug. If you read the bug comments and the kernel bug comments, you'll see that it still exists. If you want to know more, you'll have to search. If you want to find a duplicate explicitly for Ubuntu 8.10, you'll have to search.

GUI components do not break. They go off the screen like in any other but they do not crash or hang because of your resolution.

Of course they can break, if there's a bug. You might be able to find something if you look for "Synaptic Package Manager" and "low resolutions" as it can be the most broken.

Well I have seen the same exact problem in Windows. Uncheck the box, or install Gnome and use that if the problem is that bad. it's not like you have to reinstall to do this.

The problem isn't bad and is easily solvable by me. The problem is, it's a shitty default, which will frustrate the hell out of a new linux user. If using Gnome, the new user still has to figure out that he needs to fire up alsamixer to fix it. With Windows, there's an *obvious* GUI mixer that you can load up *that will do the trick*. None of the Gui Mixers on Ubuntu or Kubuntu get it right.

Now, it may be a 3rd party driver problem, but that isn't going to make a new user feel any better.

I don't think you are comprehending what i am saying. You can set the resolution in recovery mode using the text based GUI, which reconfigures Xorg directly. For you to keep saying "it's still open" when it's obvious you're talking about an older version is ignorant, and not accurate.

Doing that still doesn't work. It doesn't generate the .conf file right. It's *kind of* like this one https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-nv/+bug/38055 where nothing, but editing the .conf with a text editor will fix. I think it has more to do with monitor detection than Graphics card detection though. Anyway, since this forum is not a BTS, I'll take things up in BTSs where needed.

But really, you shouldn't get defensive about these things. Be glad that you don't have these problems, but be understandable that others might. ( Unless saying, "They do not exist! They do not exist! They do not exist!" makes them go away.)

 

[kac77]

The bug I linked to also shows the associated kernel bug. If you read the bug comments and the kernel bug comments, you'll see that it still exists. If you want to know more, you'll have to search. If you want to find a duplicate explicitly for Ubuntu 8.10, you'll have to search.

I looked at it, which is why I asked you to link it. Because the bug does not exist in all versions or all kernels for that matter, and launchpad event documents that. So you can blow how air all you want. You may want there to be more bugs than there is but that doesn't make it so.

Of course they can break, if there's a bug. You might be able to find something if you look for "Synaptic Package Manager" and "low resolutions" as it can be the most broken.

You're not even making sense any more. "You might be able to find something?" Hell I might be able to find a case where a caterpillar choked on a memory stick. It doesn't make the issue prevalent or commonly reproducible. Link the bug please so we can change the subject.

The problem isn't bad and is easily solvable by me. The problem is, it's a shitty default, which will frustrate the hell out of a new linux user. If using Gnome, the new user still has to figure out that he needs to fire up alsamixer to fix it. With Windows, there's an *obvious* GUI mixer that you can load up *that will do the trick*. None of the Gui Mixers on Ubuntu or Kubuntu get it right.

Now, it may be a 3rd party driver problem, but that isn't going to make a new user feel any better.

The volume applet in Gnome allows you to configure all mixers not just OSS, or Pulseaudio, but all of them. Even digital output for Alsa. Next.

Doing that still doesn't work. It doesn't generate the .conf file right. It's *kind of* like this one https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-nv/+bug/38055 where nothing, but editing the .conf with a text editor will fix. I think it has more to do with monitor detection than Graphics card detection though. Anyway, since this forum is not a BTS, I'll take things up in BTSs where needed.

But really, you shouldn't get defensive about these things. Be glad that you don't have these problems, but be understandable that others might. ( Unless saying, "They do not exist! They do not exist! They do not exist!" makes them go away.)

The xorg configuration under recovery mode doesn't detect jack crap, which is why I've been fighting this issue with you because all of it needs to be set manually by the user. X org was updated in 8.04 . Vesa modes aren't read by the conf file unless you put them there. Otherwise, whatever you set it to it's exactly what it will be for VESA modes. Now once you install your device driver you can override configuration by the conf file but it's definitely not looking to that otherwise.

I'm more than willing to acknowledge issues with you but so far you've provided bugs that either don't relate with what we are talking about, or reference older versions of the kernel and the not the most recently updated which is available to everyone.

 

[kac77]

I was responding to a post claiming that Linux driver support is perfectly fine.

I don't think anyone has ever said "it's perfectly fine" no OS has "perfectly fine" driver support. Not Windows, OS X, Unix, Linux, BeOS, Commodore 64, a Tandy, or an IBM PS/1. NONE.

What people have said is Linux supports a lot of hardware and if you stick to the supported list you should be just fine. Even in that statement there's a difference between "should be just fine" and "perfectly fine".

Yes, however, I'm speaking about the driver, not the GUI. Realtek and Ralink drivers support AP mode in Windows. They do not support it in Linux.

But the Atheros ones do, so guess which wireless card I would buy if for some reason I wanted to do this under Linux?

Also without the GUI, since you're now into the registry to set it up, even Bill Gates himself would prefer a command line versus thousands of hex keys which don't obviously have a direct correlation with the folder from which they spawn. You get no error messages, nor any kind of guidance that the network stack, much less the card it self, is doing anything at all.

Well, yes, but, I was just using it as an example. There's other stuff like WPA that some people have had problems with, however, I can't speak for recently. I was speaking about AP mode as it's the feature that I'm most familiar with at this moment.

Of course there's other stuff. There's "other stuff" with just about anything. Difference is you don't have to use Linux. It's free. You don't lose money by trying it. You may lose time, but you don't directly lose money as a result of it. It's completely up to you whether paying the $150 - $275 is worth it or not. For me and many others it just isn't.

 

[greenfrogman]

First post on here i say hello from the UK (be an little bit of an blunt post) love these linux topics

the last 3 pages to me just look like geek talk and alot of counter chatter that made me just fast read the last 3 threads (as it turnd into an PS2 thread at some point and now an wireless thread or sound)

i used windows, DOS, macs, servers, and linux and one think i can say that has not changed much in the last 6 years is linux apart form an GUI installer and some fancy 3D flip (that norm does not work) not much has changed in the last 6 years (ok wireless most of the time works now with 1-2 types of cards)

not really tweaked on the names that seems to keep on countering each other, who cares about wireless cards that can be setup in AP mode, stop defending it Wireless Sucks on linux when it does work WPA does not 90% of the time (asus EEPC perfect example as i had to drop the router to WEP so the eepc they got would connect with it)

Xorg needs to fix there Video out support it should have an working safe mode on the driver and should not goto stupid monitor resolutions (not detecting monitor setting), not sure how you do it on linux but on XP just press F8 and use VGA mode if You picked an mode that is not supported (the You part i pointed out there windows norm does not pick resolutions that do not work as it detects what the monitors max and working res is from the monitor, you can untick an box to force modes that are not supported but thats when F8 comes in if you manage to press Yes to save when no is picked after 20 secs)

little list that can take an day to work out (ok maybe not installing OS but)
format, parttions, changeing securty on files, installing the OS it self to the point it works, network, shareing, video (setting desktop res as well), Sound, updateing in some cases brakeing the OS (ubuntu issue), getting hardware to work (yes it is an driver issue not realy linux), commands that need you to understand the basic file structure of linux of how commands work

i can see that none of the moderators have not talked (not seen any) in this thread at all, but i asume its more to do with it is quite funny when these topics are here

thing is when you need to install something it takes an daft amount of time to make it work (got to find that linux vid)

 

[fragalot]

Linux' safe mode is called the "console" which keeps on working, regardless of X.

about the WPA, I've used wireless on 4 different laptop models sofar, and wicd makes it connect just fine, in 90% of the cases, it's you that configured it wrong.

The "daft amount of time to get it to work"... How long do you spend on tweaking your XP install, setting up the firewall, virus scanner, installing all of your software, finding all the correct drivers?

I don't know about you, but it takes me longer to install windows than it does to install Gentoo..
and yes, gentoo compiles /EVERYTHING/ from source, yet it only takes about half a day to get everything running from scratch.

 

[eeyrjmr]

...

/me notes replying to this on his eeePC running ArchLinux connected to his WPA2 wireless router

FAIL

 

[Scali2]

The "daft amount of time to get it to work"... How long do you spend on tweaking your XP install, setting up the firewall, virus scanner, installing all of your software, finding all the correct drivers?

Well, I don't use XP anymore, but the Vista installation only took me 30 minutes from scratch.
I don't use the Windows firewall, because I have a firewall on my adsl router. I don't use a virus scanner, because only morons require one in Vista (you have to click through UAC messages in order to install any weird stuff). Or well, I do have Windows Defender, because it came standard with Vista, and didn't seem to impact performance (unlike many other virus scanners I've used over the years), and wasn't intrusive (unlike many other virus scanners I've used over the years. One of them even marked the Orange ISP software as malware and quarantined it, because they installed a custom Orange icon for Internet Explorer.. virus scanners do more bad than good for an experienced user).
I don't have to find the correct drivers either, most stuff is automatically installed via Windows Update these days.

Then again, I only install my OS once really. I've bought Vista at the time it came out, and still run on the same install. I'm quite sure that it will last me a few more months without problems, and then I'll get Windows 7.
So I don't really care about the time required for installation. It might take a few days to get everything installed and configured the way I want, but then I can use it for 2-3 years or more. Heck, my XP installation lasted for more than 5 years, without ever reinstalling.
And no, it isn't slower than a new installation. I periodically run benchmarks like HD-Tach, 3DMark and such, and I check the framerates I get in my games. They have been consistent, only gotten better because of driver updates, and are in line with what review sites show in benchmarks done on systems with a fresh installation.

 

[greenfrogman]

and yes, gentoo compiles /EVERYTHING/ from source, yet it only takes about half a day to get everything running from scratch.

yes but i can install windows and have basically every thing done in about 1-2 hrs unless there is an hardware problem

other
i had problems with wireless quite an number of times on linux, all was via the GUI side, main problem was with the EEpc (about 15 days ago) was that when i set it to WPA it did not Remove the WEP 4 key layout (was some random error in an drop down box below when you expanded it about something not working) so was not sure witch one it should go in after 15 mins trying give up and whent to the windows pc and set it to WEP and worked flawless after i did that once i rebooted it as it no longer let me modify it untill i did that

most of us want something that just works, securty is an fault with the users 99% of the time clicking on things and ignoring warnings (2-3 on vista 1-2 on xp) or typings know web sites into google search and clicking on an sponsored links form the search

you can put your anger or corrections on me if you wish but you try to do something simple on linux its not so simple if it does not work (been working with computers for +10 so i know my way around them linux as well for some of the basic commands but little old as i try linux once every year, norm 3-4 distros)

fun stuff to lighten the load in there (there is more mac vs win on the right once your on you tube so not just targeting linux these ones are but you can goto the mac vs pc ones if you want but its all fun more for the actors that are doing it)
http://dagobah.biz/flash/switchlinux3.swf << is the one i was looking for
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ypCTmtIa_DQ << is just funny
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0-22EpQOm8c << southpark (you got openoffice so can still do excel and spreadsheets but still funny)

 

[Chiplg]

If Adobe makes its Creative Suite work on Linux, then OK. Else, I'm sticking with Windows. Eindows is what everyone knows. It is what the software on the shelf works with. Why do I plan to pay $1100 for the upgrade to Adobe Production Premium CS4? It's got what I need to do the job. Is it expensive? Not really. ROI is quick. I'm happy to pay for an OS and apps that do what I need.

There is a company that makes good money behind this product. They will be there when I need them. That is the power of for profit. Forums are great, even Adobe has one. I know that they will not only be there, but they are working on improvements constantly. It was just 2003 that the original CS was released. Now we have CS4. I have no doubt that CS5 will be along in a couple of years with great improvements. When everyone is getting paid, it just works out better. Perfect? No way. But definitely better.

 

[4saken]

I work with linux/bsd/solaris everyday at my work. I have been for over a decade now as well. And I do appreciate it in the work environment. I went through my early year phases of running only linux at home on every rig, but honestly, im over it. No sense running anything other than windows as a home user unless you are really just piss poor and somehow buy a computer that doesnt come with an OS. Windows just does everything the home user needs much easier, and more accessible.

I still boot Ubuntu EEE on my Asus EEEpc, but thats on an SSD card and i mainly use vista on it.

 

[Ockie]

I've been falling in love with Linux all over again, with some of the latest flavors, it's easier to use than Windows server based systems and it's free, it also avoids the headaches of licensing and reduces the overall cost to the end user.

I don't think Linux will ever beat Microsoft until they come to a point where the functions are more beginner friendly and less intimidating. They should also streamline their breeds to have the same control functions (some commands on one flavor wont work on another flavor).

 

[greenfrogman]

Well, I don't use XP anymore, but the Vista installation only took me 30 minutes from scratch.
I don't use the Windows firewall, because I have a firewall on my adsl router.
I don't use a virus scanner, because only morons require one in Vista (you have to click through UAC messages in order to install any weird stuff).
Or well, I do have Windows Defender, because it came standard with Vista, and didn't seem to impact performance (unlike many other virus scanners I've used over the years),

i agree thats how most users pcs are. Most of the Slow pcs are due to OEM computers fitting pcs with 256-512mb of ram for XP (e machines best for it) or 512mb or 1gb for vista (with most OEM blowtware installed you really need 1.5gb-2gb of ram to make it work smooth 1gb does not cut it all the time)

you should leave windows firewall on any way no harm havening it on just make sure network is set to private (more so games work right and other pcs on the network if you have any) you should not completely trust your routers firewall but 99% safe any way just having your pc one turned on most likey stop any thing els comming in

problem with UAC, M$ did not explain what the UAC pop up box does so most users click allow or continue any way (there should be an pop up box first time it pops up or at least like XP where it has the welcome thing)

windows defender is spyware/malware remover not antivirus, Norton 2009 is very fast its not like the past norton 2008 software or blowtware mcfee, complete re written for performance take only 30 secs to install as well (not that i use mine) not that it matters nowadays as most problems are not picked up via antivirus software (XPantivirus2009 fruadware and so) aka the users who go oooo web site says i got 130 errors on my pc click here to install this software to fix it then asks you to pay Russians $40 to get rid of it when its not even real

 

[Scali2]

you should leave windows firewall on any way no harm havening it on just make sure network is set to private (more so games work right and other pcs on the network if you have any) you should not completely trust your routers firewall but 99% safe any way just having your pc one turned on most likey stop any thing els comming in

That's impossible, really.
I run a server (FreeBSD), so all traffic that gets through the firewall is automatically routed to there. My Windows machine doesn't have any ports mapped (unless it does so itself via uPnP, but the uPnP is blocked from the outside by the modem), and is invisible to the outside world.
I only have the firewall enabled on my notebook, because I take it with me and sometimes plug into foreign networks. But on my own network, with my own desktops, a firewall is only a nuisance... I don't like getting popups everytime I want to play online with a new game, or whatever. Like virus scanners, firewalls at home do more harm than good for me. I don't want to be bothered when I'm using my PC.

 

[kllrnohj]

The xorg configuration under recovery mode doesn't detect jack crap, which is why I've been fighting this issue with you because all of it needs to be set manually by the user. X org was updated in 8.04 . Vesa modes aren't read by the conf file unless you put them there. Otherwise, whatever you set it to it's exactly what it will be for VESA modes. Now once you install your device driver you can override configuration by the conf file but it's definitely not looking to that otherwise.

8.10 has an updated Xorg as well (naturally). Pretty much everything is auto-detected now. The Xorg config it gave me is pretty much blank. Video modes, which driver to use, etc... is now all auto-detected. Hell, even the default mouse + keyboard sections aren't in the new Xorg as they are also auto-detected.

I have no idea what you are supposed to do if the auto-detect fails, but that hasn't happened to me on the handful of machines I've installed it on (oldest being an Athlon T-bird 1.4ghz with geforce 2 mx in a refurbed gateway, newest being a Thinkbad Z61p with C2D 2.33ghz and a firegl V5200m - and yes, wireless works perfectly, including WPA-Enterprise)

 

[kllrnohj]

problem with UAC, M$ did not explain what the UAC pop up box does so most users click allow or continue any way (there should be an pop up box first time it pops up or at least like XP where it has the welcome thing)

The problem with UAC is its goddamn annoying and completely braindead. Do I *really* need to confirm that I want to run the program I JUST DOUBLE CLICKED? Of course not, that is stupid. Obviously the program I tried to run is trying to run. I do, however, want to know when a program is trying to automatically execute something else, but UAC never gives enough info to actually know what the hell is trying to run or do the executing.