wonderfield
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Yes. I'm uncertain what Apple products have to do with this discussion, however.
I never said there weren't. Nor has anyone else, to my knowledge.
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Windows 8 Usability Article
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heatlesssun
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Who makes the UI is irrelevant. If this person is competent and credible his assessment of UIs no matter who makes them should show accuracy. If you don't believe what he said the iPad is correct then why should you have any confidence about his analysis of Windows 8? If this man's credentials make his opinion on UIs more valuable than most that can't be conditioned on who makes the UI. That would be illogical.
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So even though there are flaws this guy is obviously correct?
heatlesssun
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Of course you do. This person has no credibility if he was that wrong about the iPad.
wonderfield
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The difference is that you see what's actually there, not what you only want to see.
heatlesssun
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And what's there is an assessment of the iPad UI from a person who you said opinion is more valuable than most on the subject of UIs. There for all to see. Seems like you're the one that can't see the whole truth.
To be fair, I'm not exactly sure that this person was all that wrong about the iPad. Thanks to "...if it's shiny and made by Apple" syndrome, it isn't necessary that Apple's products have a rock solid UX in order to sell well. I don't know how you're concluding that he's wrong about the iPad, but if it's based off of the iPad's retail success, I wouldn't be so sure that that is an accurate thing to go by. His criticisms could be entirely valid.
heatlesssun
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I see your point. I don't know anyone that thinks there are any severe problems with the iPad's UI, it's considered to be best of class by many. And most of those people don't have PHd's in UI design, and that was my point. This person's opinion wasn't more important than the millions of folks that have bought iPads.
Who said he was wrong?
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The only things "better" were things specific to the apps. In fact, in the original one, pretty much the only things he focused on were usability of apps, which has nothing to do with the OS itself.
Now, again, back to his evaluation of Windows, let's go point by point.
The lack of continuity between the Metro and desktop apps is a valid assessment. Also, didn't you have to learn and memorize where features were in Windows 7 as well? The only thing that helped was because it was mostly the same as Vista and XP.
Lack of multiple windows: use the environment with the device it was designed for. Don't use Metro for working on the desktop, you have a choice here. If you choose to use the Metro environment for work on a desktop, well, that's your own stupid choice.
Flat style. The icons light up when you move the mouse over it. It's not as undiscoverable as he is claiming it to be.
Low information density. That's the app's fault, not the OS.
Live tiles: You generally know what you put on your Start Screen, and Windows is built for multiple users. It does not have the sharing problems the iPad and Android tablets have. Again, this is also the app's fault.
Charms: Again, why are you using Metro functions on a desktop? As for Metro uses, a tutorial, which would most likely be included with every tablet, would explain most, if not all of the features. It's designed to be available at any time without getting in the way. As for unsearchable apps... that's again the app's fault. The comparison to websites is stupid because there's a large variety of websites with no set guidelines. Across all Windows 8 installations, functionality will all be the same.
Swipe: maybe valid, I have not used a Windows 8 touch-based device.
heatlesssun
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So his initial assessment was basically wrong, the iPad's UI hasn't changed that much since it's introduction, it certainly hadn't changed before it became a mega-hit. It was just so popular that he had to amend what see said without looking like the charlatan that he is.
No, he certainly made a case. Did you read it or not? Having disagreement on some or all doesn't imply he's 'wrong.'
Oh, and citation needed on your claim of him being a 'charlatan.'
heatlesssun
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I've read all three but in particular the Windows 8 one as that's a UI I know backwards forwards with both touch and keyboard and mouse. The issues he discusses with swipes I can't make heads or tails of, not saying he doesn't have a point but I've never and an issue with the swipe gestures save one. If you are swiping as the edge of the screen sometimes the Add and Char Bars will activate accidently. But they aren't difficult to use.
Ur_Mom
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Yes, they had to be learned. But, 17 years of the Start menu and then thrown into this is a bit of a leap. The two UI's don't mesh well together in some things. I could cite some examples, but I'm at work. I think everyone has had a few times when they've had an issue with that. It's not a major one, just a "WTF? Oh, yea." moment.
Metro is up front and center. You see it when you start, you see it when you want to access the "start" menu/screen. Choice isn't exactly a straight forward thing. Again, you get used to it, but it does take some learning and conscience effort.
Agree. Live Tiles are one of my favorite features of the WP7-8/W8 platform. Now, I'm hoping a future update will allow me to have Metro on one screen and Desktop app on another. I have one monitor now, but if this were an option and implemented well, I'd own two.
I can see both sides on this one. There are things that you are supposed to use charms for (without being too knowledgeable with keyboard shortcuts). Shutdown, etc.. Yes, some people still shut down. It's habit from 20+ years of computing. Others, such as old people, prefer to shut down as they don't use their computer for days and save pennies (power bill).
Haven't had a problem. Takes a few minutes to get the hang of it. But, I learned quick. About the same as the gestures from an iPad in learning time.
His complaints are valid because they are real issues that others are experiencing. In computing, you want ease of use for the users. User friendly. With this many complaints (some are just BS FUD from people that haven't used it), you have to admit that it isn't perfect. Sure, some of us may love it and find it a great OS and don't see how people can be confused, but they are. You can't dismiss their complaints because you don't see it. You are designing the OS/UI for THOSE USERS. These complaints are completely valid. Maybe not to you and I, but to the UI developers, they need to take these into consideration. Otherwise, the OS will not improve. What was wrong with Vista? People complained. Things got changed. Windows 7 was released and was awesome. I had zero problems with Vista. Doesn't mean that there weren't things that could be improved on.
Hearing someone say "I can't do anything, this is stupid." and you coming back with "You're doing it wrong, it's so easy if you do it THIS way" is like Steve Jobs saying "You're holding it wrong". The OS could use some refinement. And, I would really hope so. Otherwise Windows 9 will never be released.
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If you read some of my other posts, I did complain about the power menu being inside the Charms bar. Also, I feel as if there should be a global setting during startup to default to Metro or traditional desktop programs for things like music and video files.
The assessment might be valid as far as new users using someone else's set up computer goes without having used the tutorial or ever using the OS, but for someone buying a new computer, there will always be a tutorial, and they are the ones customizing it.
The assessment might be valid as far as new users using someone else's set up computer goes without having used the tutorial or ever using the OS, but for someone buying a new computer, there will always be a tutorial, and they are the ones customizing it.
Ur_Mom
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Windows 7 had people bitching that they moved items and it took more clicks to do things (networking, etc.). People complained about leaving to OSX or Linux. The same people are back bitching about Windows 8. But, with Windows 8, the UI difference is a much bigger one, so their complains hold more water. Still, nothing to jump ship over (if you are leaving because the UI sucks and you don't want to learn something completely different, why go to something COMPLETELY different!?).
My only thing is that while Windows 8 is a great OS, I see people defending it to the death and saying that people are being over dramatic and that there are no problems. I'm in the middle, trying to be unbiased (although I am admittedly a Microsoft fan). I know that Win8 is an excellent OS, and once you get used to it, it's a great OS and Metro (Modern) UI is very useful. But, it's not without it's faults.
The guy that wrote the article is pointing out a few flaws from his standpoint. While most are completely valid, some are just not meeting his expectations (or placing blame on the OS, when it's a third party application causing his issue - similar to Vista issues). There should be more custom ability to the Metro UI. You should be able to set a primary UI (and like you said, have music and movies and documents open in one or the other UI designated application). If I open a link in an email, it defaults to Metro IE. I had to set it to do it the other way. Just those little inconsistencies that bug me. Nothing major, but it's the little things that need refinement. It's a damn good OS, but needs some polish to make it better. Windows 9 should be amazing if they can clear up some of the little things...
My only thing is that while Windows 8 is a great OS, I see people defending it to the death and saying that people are being over dramatic and that there are no problems. I'm in the middle, trying to be unbiased (although I am admittedly a Microsoft fan). I know that Win8 is an excellent OS, and once you get used to it, it's a great OS and Metro (Modern) UI is very useful. But, it's not without it's faults.
The guy that wrote the article is pointing out a few flaws from his standpoint. While most are completely valid, some are just not meeting his expectations (or placing blame on the OS, when it's a third party application causing his issue - similar to Vista issues). There should be more custom ability to the Metro UI. You should be able to set a primary UI (and like you said, have music and movies and documents open in one or the other UI designated application). If I open a link in an email, it defaults to Metro IE. I had to set it to do it the other way. Just those little inconsistencies that bug me. Nothing major, but it's the little things that need refinement. It's a damn good OS, but needs some polish to make it better. Windows 9 should be amazing if they can clear up some of the little things...
To me, it's a problem when the recommendation to do something is a keyboard shortcut because using the mouse got less efficient. I remember about a half dozen Windows shortcuts, and I really don't want to have to remember more than a dozen just so I can do what I can easily do with a mouse in Win 7. One thing I liked in Win 7 compared to XP and even to an extent Vista is easy accessibility of the system functions at only one or two levels. In XP you had to dig several layers to get to such things as Device Manager. Also, I don't want to have to type program names just to find them. What's the point of a GUI if the most efficient way to get around is typing in search boxes?
heatlesssun
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But I think that many would say that pointing and click is inherently less efficient than keystrokes. That debate started 30 years ago when mice become popular and to this day many feel that a keyboard is still faster for many things then constant pointing and clicking. Definitely 30 years ago you heard a number of people complain about the loss of efficiency that mice bring to computing. Of course that debate seem silly because will perhaps less efficient a mouse can make things easier.
And here's the thing, we did just throw away keyboards when mice came along. That's how it is with touch, it's just another method and that method can even be incorporated into keyboards and mice.
B00nie
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Pointing and clicking IS inherently less efficient but it's also the only feasible way to work around not knowing the requirements by heart.
If you forgot the name of the app, no search is going to find it for you. Even worse if you don't know the name of the function you need to start with, common problem with localised installs. Typically you may know the name of the function in english, but not anymore with your native or third language at which point search becomes completely useless.
Hell I've used a Greek windows with Greek alphabet just by position memory without understanding a word of it. The spectators were amused and impressed. Try that with w8
If you forgot the name of the app, no search is going to find it for you. Even worse if you don't know the name of the function you need to start with, common problem with localised installs. Typically you may know the name of the function in english, but not anymore with your native or third language at which point search becomes completely useless.
Hell I've used a Greek windows with Greek alphabet just by position memory without understanding a word of it. The spectators were amused and impressed. Try that with w8
heatlesssun
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Hell I've used a Greek windows with Greek alphabet just by position memory without understanding a word of it. The spectators were amused and impressed. Try that with w8
Shouldn't be anymore difficult in Windows 8 if you actually realize that just about everything in the Start Menu is in the File Explorer or file system.
Back in the late 80's and early 90's the king of word processors was Word Perfect, and the new kid on the block was Word for Windows. The users of Word Perfect cited the advantages of using keyboard shortcuts rather than a mouse, a system that regular and continued use allowed them to memorize the 50+ arcane key combos to quickly produce the desired results. On the other hand, the interface for Word allowed users to click buttons and select text in a fairly straightforward way that didn't require memorization of key combos. So, today, where is Word Perfect and where is Word? Keyboard shortcuts are fine, but they should never be considered as an advantage to compensate for a convoluted or complicated interface.
Ur_Mom
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That's not really a good example, though (although I fully agree with you).
Around that time is when Windows made a huge jump in market share and the use of a mouse came with it. There were mice before, but they weren't common place. With WordPerfect, you HAD to know the keyboard shortcuts because that's all there was. With the introduction of the mouse, it opened a whole new can of worms. Not because it was easier (it was), but because it was the new input system. It doesn't mean that WordPerfect failed because of the mouse.
I think I recall that Microsoft withheld information from WordPerfect (about Windows and the programming API's and such) so that Word got a huge head start and an interface improvement from the get go. Not 100% sure on that, but it was something devious like that.
I use keyboard shortcuts because they are simple and easy. But, I use the mouse for the more mundane things in the OS. I'm not going to use a keyboard shortcut when I have the mouse in my right hand and it used to be a simple single or double click to accomplish something which now requires me to use a keyboard "shortcut". Some people that know computers just enough to use them aren't going to want to learn a whole new bunch of "shortcuts" to accomplish the same thing as a simple click and click and done.
I think it depends on what type of device you're using. The natural instinct for somebody holding just a display (read: tablet) is to touch the damn thing.
On my laptop, an X220, I use the keyboard almost exclusively, and for the things I can't do via keyboard I use the ThinkNipple. On a device like that, I opted to go with Ubuntu and HUD and it's worked wonders. Using keyboard shortcuts with the heads-up-display allows me to keep my hands on the keyboard almost exclusively, and considering the poor and small trackpad, I very much prefer it. I've found it's a lot quicker for those who prefer the keyboard over a mouse or track - pad/nipple. Keeping both hands on the keyboard is surprisingly productive.
This analogy lends itself to Win8, though the lack of a heads-up-display is what curtails it quite a bit. So, in a way, Win8 is actually very keyboard-centric insofar that it encourages you to learn the shortcuts (and let's be honest, there's a reason they're called shortcuts). For users not willing to adapt, or those who simply favor mouse+keyboard with heavy emphasis on the mouse, it becomes inherently difficult to make the transition. Essentially, Microsoft is asking users to relearn the way they interact with their PCs in the Metro environment, and that's not something users are going to embrace. After nearly two decades of using your PC in the same manner, now they've asked you to reconsider. It's not at all surprising to see the backlash.
MS has the right idea, but I feel like they jumped the gun here. There's a whole slew of reasons related to hardware that their initiative doesn't make sense given the current climate -- Apple and Android covering the top and bottom end, thus not giving MS much wiggle room. Convincing PC users who are used to the traditional Windows environment to buy an underpowered tablet that lacks the horsepower of their desktop and/or laptop at ~$500-$800 (Atom/RT), or a too highly priced and too heavy device with lackluster battery life (Surface Pro / 700T and other Intel ULV-based devices) makes it even more difficult.
I really think that had MS decided to wait until the end of 2013 until the hardware was there and priced right to release a converged OS, offering WP8 and a strictly tablet-based OS before it, they'd have done far better in offering consumers what they wish; traditional PC folk and the ultramobile crowd alike. For example, opting to go with an ARM A15 that outperforms current Atoms as their RT device rather than the underpowered and aging Tegra 3 would have avoided some of the inherent performance issues they face; multitasking on Tegra 3 is in a pretty rough spot at the moment. Hell, even a Snapdragon S4 Krait would have been a better solution.
Win8/Metro is a good idea, but the execution and timing are just ughh....
heatlesssun
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There's more to it that just top end performance. One's current desktop/laptop is stuck to being used solely with a keyboard and mouse in a sitting position, doesn't weight ~1.5 pounds and get 10 hours of battery life.
Oh yea, obviously tablets and smartphones wouldn't be outselling traditional PCs if that weren't the case, but MS has both sets of users to consider and not just one.
In order to appeal to both segments of that market - the traditional Windows user and the ultramobile crowd - they need both, not just one. Portability and power coupled with reasonable price, not one or the other at prices that won't appeal to either. But it's not even "top end performance." We're talking about 17W ULVs here that don't have a quarter of the performance of their desktop equivalents. They need to reach that "good enough" stage that's become ever so popular a term. The Atoms are a bit too low for the PC crowd and the ULVs are too hot, expensive and heavy for the ultramobile crowd. I think a year would have offered a better, higher performing Atom, more options from AMD and even a 10W Haswell for that "so-high-a-price-that-it-doesn't-even-make-sense" crowd. Even Tegra's successor, the new Exynos 5-series from Samsung, off-the-shelf A15 and Qualcomm's new parts would have been huge upgrades over the Tegra 3 and Clover Trail Atom alike.
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heatlesssun
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But it's not one or the other with Windows 8 tablets, it can be both, even Clover Trail devices can do a great deal of what people would need a traditional PC for.
Until you open 4-5 flash-based websites and it stutters to a halt. Or you decide to start gaming, where you'll see that if you're lucky and it launches it's not playable. Or that the disk space is insufficient. If you're going to stick to Metro, it's fine. If you're planning on running desktop applications, photoshop/blender and anything CPU heavy, it's still the old Atom but with better battery life and graphics. Hell, it's an in-order 32-bit architecture, ffs!
For the average user that's bypassing a PC upgrade over a tablet, it's more than sufficient. For the user who needs a laptop in a more convenient form factor, it's not.
heatlesssun
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I don't know why you keep making characterizations of something that you've never tried. I've had no issue doing exactly this.
I am a hardware junkie, With an oced 2500k and gtx 680 and I do not like seeing stuttering.
I have had no problems with the 500t. I am amazed how well the package works atom/windows 8/ tablet.
You can do anything on it except traditional games. ( minecraft/tf2/etc)
Next generation will be even more compelling. A true quad core atom built off the core 2 duo, and a 10w haswell corei5
If you do see stuttering on an atom tablet it is from one of two things. The small 2gb ram or the eMMC controller. The eMMC controller is horrible, it uses alot of cpu to get its work done and its just plain slow.
Sadly the next gen atom doesn't seem to use a sata controller just a better eMMC. This is mostly for power savings. I will still considering it if the haswell cannot produce better battery numbers.
I have had no problems with the 500t. I am amazed how well the package works atom/windows 8/ tablet.
You can do anything on it except traditional games. ( minecraft/tf2/etc)
Next generation will be even more compelling. A true quad core atom built off the core 2 duo, and a 10w haswell corei5
If you do see stuttering on an atom tablet it is from one of two things. The small 2gb ram or the eMMC controller. The eMMC controller is horrible, it uses alot of cpu to get its work done and its just plain slow.
Sadly the next gen atom doesn't seem to use a sata controller just a better eMMC. This is mostly for power savings. I will still considering it if the haswell cannot produce better battery numbers.