Windows 8 Upgrade Offer Might Not Be Free

wonderfield said:
Assuming there are no API limitations prohibiting it (which there probably are), yes, it could be.
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There are API restrictions but an application like Photoshop should be almost entirely possible. Also I think too many people look at Metro as trying to replace the desktop. It's not. There's no reason why you can't have Metro clients and desktop clients of the same application where the user has the option to use which version is best for the situation. That's how I'm using IE. On a desktop with a keyboard and mouse I use the desktop version, on my Samsung Series 7 Slate while I'm using it as a tablet I use the Metro version of IE.

The power and potential of Windows 8, at least on x86, are just staggering. People keep trying to pigeonhole Windows 8 and the truth of the matter is that it does everything. Perhaps a jack of all trades and a master of none But it is the first attempt at a jack of all trades OS in this post-PC world..

And Microsoft had no choice but to at least try.
 
I actually am enjoying the consumer preview of Windows 8. It works well on my all-in-one PC that happens to be a touchscreen. My 7 year old loves it.
 
Modder said:
I actually am enjoying the consumer preview of Windows 8. It works well on my all-in-one PC that happens to be a touchscreen. My 7 year old loves it.
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I doubt anyone using it on a touchscreen is knocking it. Those of us slamming it are slamming the fact that it is complete crap on a normal desktop/laptop. There needs to be 2 versions..1 for touch and 1 for non. That is all most of us are asking for.

Free upgrade doesn't affect me, I don't buy prefab garbage. Doubt I would upgrade anyhow the dev and consumer previews have been atrocious.
 
kraemer007 said:
No, that is a ridiculous statement. Metro apps are flawed by design because they have to be designed to run on a phone, a tablet, and PC, therefore not taking full advantage of either. Do you think full blown Photoshop could be a Metro app? No, it cant.

The win8 strategy is clearly flawed.
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I never said Photoshop-level programs could or should be a Metro app. Learn to read. I was referring to those small things that would be fine as apps (NOT giant programs like Photoshop).
 
kraemer007 said:
No, that is a ridiculous statement. Metro apps are flawed by design because they have to be designed to run on a phone, a tablet, and PC, therefore not taking full advantage of either. Do you think full blown Photoshop could be a Metro app? No, it cant.

The win8 strategy is clearly flawed.
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I do not know where you are getting your info from but I think you are incorrect. The phone apps will definitely be different from the Desktop and tablet apps. I have a Windows Phone 7.5 HTC HD7 and it has a completely different market place from the Windows 8 Market Place.

Also, the phone is not running X86 hardware well most of the tablets and all of the desktops will. Tablets are also very powerful, I have one myself. (The Acer W500) So, a phone app will not be the same as the desktop and tablet app.
 
ManofGod said:
I do not know where you are getting your info from but I think you are incorrect. The phone apps will definitely be different from the Desktop and tablet apps. I have a Windows Phone 7.5 HTC HD7 and it has a completely different market place from the Windows 8 Market Place.

Also, the phone is not running X86 hardware well most of the tablets and all of the desktops will. Tablets are also very powerful, I have one myself. (The Acer W500) So, a phone app will not be the same as the desktop and tablet app.
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Especially considering the screen size and resolution of a phone.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
I doubt anyone using it on a touchscreen is knocking it. Those of us slamming it are slamming the fact that it is complete crap on a normal desktop/laptop. There needs to be 2 versions..1 for touch and 1 for non. That is all most of us are asking for.

Free upgrade doesn't affect me, I don't buy prefab garbage. Doubt I would upgrade anyhow the dev and consumer previews have been atrocious.
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If Windows 8 is complete crap with keyboards and mice how is it that plenty of people are using it everyday just as well as they would with keyboards and mice under Windows 7?

The real issue of Metro on the desktop isn't about usability, it's about philosophy and the vision of where the PC needs to go. Clearly there are people who hate Metro but their reasons aren't really technical. There's fear of change, fear of app stores, fear of "dumbed down" programs, etc. This is where the true controversy is.

If Windows 8 were as unusable with keyboards and mice as some claim I have no idea how I could be using with keyboards and mice everyday with no issue, except hot corners with multiple monitors which I work around using the keyboard.
 
yea umm no i tried windows 8 and its the worst im sorry to say but vista is better than that crap. theres not even a start button. i had to delete all my data in order to go back to 7. waste of time and life
 
Windows 8 isn't horrible, I just want the option to bring my freaking start menu back :|. Dont want to go in to metro to launch an application.
 
jay2nice000 said:
yea umm no i tried windows 8 and its the worst im sorry to say but vista is better than that crap. theres not even a start button. i had to delete all my data in order to go back to 7. waste of time and life
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Next time, do a dual boot and you can avoid those issues. Sounds more like a personal issue than a windows 8 issue. :rolleyes:
 
heatlesssun said:
If Windows 8 is complete crap with keyboards and mice how is it that plenty of people are using it everyday just as well as they would with keyboards and mice under Windows 7?

The real issue of Metro on the desktop isn't about usability, it's about philosophy and the vision of where the PC needs to go. Clearly there are people who hate Metro but their reasons aren't really technical. There's fear of change, fear of app stores, fear of "dumbed down" programs, etc. This is where the true controversy is.

If Windows 8 were as unusable with keyboards and mice as some claim I have no idea how I could be using with keyboards and mice everyday with no issue, except hot corners with multiple monitors which I work around using the keyboard.
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You are correct in that it is a debate in philosophy on where the PC needs to go, but I disagree with the notion that it is based on fear.

I like App stores, on my mobile devices. I have absolutely no need for app stores on my desktop computer. They bring no value to it at this time. If in the event that changes, I will consider it at that time. However I don't need an entire interface change to allow me access to app stores. So no, I don't fear them and I have encountered few win 8 "haters" who fear app stores.

Being able to use something and being able to use it effectively are completely different. I can use DOS just fine, but that doesn't mean it is superior to windows. Win 8 is a step backwards in usability. Many of the things that were significantly easier in Win 7 are now either more difficult and or simply requiring more steps in Win 8. While difficulty is a subjective thing, no one can argue that any change in process that requires more "Clicks" then the previous process is a poorly designed change.

You and I have debated a few times, you should know that my complaints are technical in nature and hold merit. My entire argument against win 8 remains exactly the same as it was previous to the Dev preview. Default the UI to the Touch/Metro centric based UI for Touch based devices and default it to the standard Windows current standard for non touch based devices and give an option to toggle based on user preference. The Win 8 Metro centric UI on touch devices is really great. It is usable but honestly overly cumbersome for non touch devices. While I as a tech can easily adapt, the reality is that the "average" user had trouble moving from XP to Win 7 and those interfaces were quite similiar. Win 8 removes basically everything familiar. If MS thinks the average user is going to welcome this extreme of a change with open arms, they are in for a very rude awakening. I have yet to meet a single basic user who found the new interface appealing or intuitive on any level. Given the position I am in, I have had the chance to stick the laptop I have running it in front of close to 1100 people of varying levels of expertise. The feedback I have gotten back has been extremely negative. A fairly large percentage have gone so far as to state they would just rather learn OSX then try and learn this.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Default the UI to the Touch/Metro centric based UI for Touch based devices and default it to the standard Windows current standard for non touch based devices and give an option to toggle based on user preference. The Win 8 Metro centric UI on touch devices is really great. It is usable but honestly overly cumbersome for non touch devices. While I as a tech can easily adapt, the reality is that the "average" user had trouble moving from XP to Win 7 and those interfaces were quite similiar. Win 8 removes basically everything familiar. If MS thinks the average user is going to welcome this extreme of a change with open arms, they are in for a very rude awakening. I have yet to meet a single basic user who found the new interface appealing or intuitive on any level.
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Different UIs I think creates as many problems as it solves. Different machines will now have different capabilities and when dealing with Windows 8 you have to account for both UIs.

Dekoth-E- said:
Given the position I am in, I have had the chance to stick the laptop I have running it in front of close to 1100 people of varying levels of expertise. The feedback I have gotten back has been extremely negative. A fairly large percentage have gone so far as to state they would just rather learn OSX then try and learn this.
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Reaction to change, especially to changes this big are rarely going to be met with great approval initially. More than a few people said that if Microsoft stuck with the ribbon in Office 2007 and at least didn't have the option to change back to the classic menus, everyone would start using Open Office or something else. When people see the finished Windows 8, dozens of new hardware form factors with touch that boot almost instantly and have crazy battery life and when a thousands of Metro apps come online of which many if not most will work great with keyboards and mice, opinions will be different.

You said that you find app stores useful on your phone, not your PC. The truth of the matter is that for a exponentially growing crowd, their phones ARE their PCs. Keyboard and mice only computing is still useful, but its not what average use as much anymore. And when they see an app they like on their phone, why shouldn't they have the option to use the equivalent on the PC?
 
heatlesssun said:
Different UIs I think creates as many problems as it solves. Different machines will now have different capabilities and when dealing with Windows 8 you have to account for both UIs.



Reaction to change, especially to changes this big are rarely going to be met with great approval initially. More than a few people said that if Microsoft stuck with the ribbon in Office 2007 and at least didn't have the option to change back to the classic menus, everyone would start using Open Office or something else. When people see the finished Windows 8, dozens of new hardware form factors with touch that boot almost instantly and have crazy battery life and when a thousands of Metro apps come online of which many if not most will work great with keyboards and mice, opinions will be different.

You said that you find app stores useful on your phone, not your PC. The truth of the matter is that for a exponentially growing crowd, their phones ARE their PCs. Keyboard and mice only computing is still useful, but its not what average use as much anymore. And when they see an app they like on their phone, why shouldn't they have the option to use the equivalent on the PC?
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As much as I like Metro UI as it is, I have to disagree about having options posing problems for Microsoft. You'll have developers not only writing software for PC, Apple, and Linux, as well as mobile devices, but now they have Metro to contend with. If developers can handle all that, surely Microsoft can handle something as trivial as putting in a second Start menu choice. Personally I'd leave mine on Metro, but having a choice would alleviate a lot of potential headaches for the common users. I, for one, am not looking forward to the flood of emails and Facebook messages from people complaining that Internet Explorer looks awful, and I telling them to switch to Desktop and hitting the blue "E" from there instead. I might deactivate my Facebook account for a couple months :-P
 
Azhar said:
Personally I'd leave mine on Metro, but having a choice would alleviate a lot of potential headaches for the common users. I, for one, am not looking forward to the flood of emails and Facebook messages from people complaining that Internet Explorer looks awful, and I telling them to switch to Desktop and hitting the blue "E" from there instead. I might deactivate my Facebook account for a couple months :-P
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But you could have the situation also where people are hearing about all those new Metro apps and wonder why they can't run them. As for IE, there's actually a switch in it where launching IE from the Start Screen will launch the desktop version. At any rate, that's a detail that will probably work differently than it does now before RTM as I do agree that it could be confusing.

But with all of the changes in Windows 8 a 10 minute tutorial would most people up to speed pretty quickly. There's nothing really all that complicated about it, but yes it's very different.
 
Can anyone tell me why I would need say 6 different metro Apps when I can get all my email/weather/stocks/news/media through just one app....a web browser?

I open Firefox in the morning and that's pretty much where I stay. No need to flick through several apps.
 
daglesj said:
Can anyone tell me why I would need say 6 different metro Apps when I can get all my email/weather/stocks/news/media through just one app....a web browser?
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You don't for these types of things, but apps can be more visually appealing have richer interaction and they work better with a touch interface. But your examples are fairly basic, apps, apps can be full featured GPU accelerated games, have access to the file system and certain hardware like cameras which aren't easy or even possible with web browsers.
 
heatlesssun said:
You don't for these types of things, but apps can be more visually appealing have richer interaction and they work better with a touch interface. But your examples are fairly basic, apps, apps can be full featured GPU accelerated games, have access to the file system and certain hardware like cameras which aren't easy or even possible with web browsers.
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So basically trivial/hipster stuff. I get you.

I don't really need visually appealing either, I'm 40+ years old and just need the facts man. Dont softsoap me that my stocks are tanking.:D

Metro still has no appeal or use for me.
 
daglesj said:
So basically trivial/hipster stuff. I get you.

I don't really need visually appealing either, I'm 40+ years old and just need the facts man. Dont softsoap me that my stocks are tanking.:D

Metro still has no appeal or use for me.
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I'm 40+ myself and I like to actually enjoy my computers. I've been programming for a long time and don't consider myself a hipster but I like being to run the same programs and share the same data across different device form factors. Metro isn't so much about being hip as allowing Windows to work better on tablets and hip or not, more and more people use tablets and touch devices for computing, I have for years with Windows and its wonderful to have a thin and light device with a touch screen and a pen that also works with mice and keyboards that's all about flexibility and power and having the right tools for the right situation.

It seems so many who don't like Metro just want Windows to remain nothing more than a old, tired keyboard and mouse driven OS and anything new or interesting to average people is just too hip to be of value. Very strange thinking if the idea is actually sell a product that has a broad appeal that isn't just about work and productivity.

But there's going to be plenty of productivity apps written in Metro as again, more and more people do productive things with touch devices. I just don't understand why people seem to refuse that which it taking place right in front of them.
 
But I dont use a tablet. I dont use touch devices.

I use a desktop.

Clear enough?

I like pretty much everything about Windows 8. Except this steaming turd that is Metro.

Take that out and I'm a happy Windows 8 user. For me Windows 8 is like buying a car with two steering wheels. I don't need the other one so I'd like to remove it as it gets in the way for me.
 
Meeho said:
Could you give some examples? I can't really see a productive use of touch devices. They lack precision, suitability for longer work, and are a chore to "write" even a simple email.
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Tablets aren't necessarily available for ease of use, but for convenience. Android, Apple and Microsoft are trying to make tablet experiences as painless as possible for those who benefit from tablets than being tethered to an electrical outlet.
 
daglesj said:
But I dont use a tablet. I dont use touch devices.

I use a desktop.

Clear enough?

I like pretty much everything about Windows 8. Except this steaming turd that is Metro.

Take that out and I'm a happy Windows 8 user. For me Windows 8 is like buying a car with two steering wheels. I don't need the other one so I'd like to remove it as it gets in the way for me.
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There are going to tens of hundreds of thousands of Metro apps coming out. I wouldn't be surprised if many who are thinking like you will find some that like, even on a keyboard and mouse desktop.
 
metro has no place on the desktop atm imho. but im sure all those app developers are blinded by dollar signs.
 
Simplified, more beautiful and energy efficient applications that are easy to install and uninstall and don't hog resources or slow down a computer seem have plenty reasons for being on desktops and laptops.
 
bigddybn said:
Think of all the cool things a touchscreen centric OS can do. Remove anything you'd be slowed down with a mouse for or anything you had to manage or control yourself.

Now take away the touchscreen and hide all your shit.

Welcome to Windows 8.
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Haha, that's pretty much what I've heard so far. Looks like Windows 8 tablets will be pretty great to use with it, but for the traditional point and click users it will not. Anyone know if there is going to be a "classic" layout you could switch to if you prefer the old style?
 
ItsVictorB said:
Haha, that's pretty much what I've heard so far. Looks like Windows 8 tablets will be pretty great to use with it, but for the traditional point and click users it will not. Anyone know if there is going to be a "classic" layout you could switch to if you prefer the old style?
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Sure. Hit "desktop" when your Metro tiles load up. Takes all of .05 seconds.

Don't want to see Metro too often? Pin some of your frequently used programs to task bar just like in Windows 7.
 
The big thing that bugs me with Metro: it's a separate thing. It has it's own applications (there is IE in Metro, which behaves differently than Desktop IE). I've gone to do something in IE, and it opens Metro IE, which doesn't work with plugins - so I have to copy the URL, close IE, go to Desktop, open IE, paste URL and go. Pain in the ass. Don't go off that I should switch to Firefox. It's there, too, and they are making a Metro version, too. Same with picture viewer, PDF viewer, etc.. There are two of a lot of things, and their feature set is different. You have to learn BOTH of them to effectively use the OS. So, instead of getting me to use Metro, it's making me want to ditch it all together and go for the Desktop to get anything done with a single application. I COULD use the Metro version, but it's a pain in the ass. This is the same regardless of the platform: tablet, laptop or desktop. Metro apps are fine, but they aren't full featured. I'm not going to dumb down everything just to use the Metro app. I'm going to use the more powerful and effective desktop version. I'm not retarded, I use the advanced features... Windows ISN'T like iOS. It's made for creating content. Windows is more advanced. That's why Apple made iOS for portable devices and OSX for desktop. It's two completely different worlds. Microsoft is trying to combine those when they shouldn't be combined.
 
Ur_Mom said:
The big thing that bugs me with Metro: it's a separate thing. It has it's own applications (there is IE in Metro, which behaves differently than Desktop IE). I've gone to do something in IE, and it opens Metro IE, which doesn't work with plugins - so I have to copy the URL, close IE, go to Desktop, open IE, paste URL and go.
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It the Metro version of IE there's a menu command to open up the currently viewed page in the desktop version of IE, no pain at at. Also there's an option to have IE default to the desktop version by going into Internet Options in the desktop version of IE on the Programs tab and then selecting "Always in IE on desktop" under the choose how to open links option.
 
heatlesssun said:
It the Metro version of IE there's a menu command to open up the currently viewed page in the desktop version of IE, no pain at at. Also there's an option to have IE default to the desktop version by going into Internet Options in the desktop version of IE on the Programs tab and then selecting "Always in IE on desktop" under the choose how to open links option.
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Cool. I'll have to check that out. I like Metro IE, but I think I'd only use it on a tablet. On the desktop, it's MUCH easier to multitask, and I find that Metro IE doesn't do that very well. Just a personal way of doing things, pretty much, though.
 
Ur_Mom said:
I'm going to use the more powerful and effective desktop version. I'm not retarded, I use the advanced features... Windows ISN'T like iOS. It's made for creating content. Windows is more advanced. That's why Apple made iOS for portable devices and OSX for desktop. It's two completely different worlds. Microsoft is trying to combine those when they shouldn't be combined.
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What many people seem to not see is that Windows 8 isn't forcing to use anything less powerful. It's simply giving you more options to use more tools with different input options and power efficiencies based on circumstances.

If one it on the road and wants maximum battery life and doesn't need Flash or other plug-ins, it makes a LOT of sense to use the Metro IE browser as much as possible. If you need plug-ins, simply use the menu command "View on desktop". And the Metro version of IE is BLAZZING fast due to the lack of plug-ins and makes a great ad filter to boot.

More programs than ever, better power efficiency, streamlined tools when you want or need them. Microsoft is building Windows 8 and Windows RT to support every CPU architecture, every input method and every form factor that's in common use today. It's an incredible OS when you consider all that it supports.
 
heatlesssun said:
What many people seem to not see is that Windows 8 isn't forcing to use anything less powerful. It's simply giving you more options to use more tools with different input options and power efficiencies based on circumstances.

If one it on the road and wants maximum battery life and doesn't need Flash or other plug-ins, it makes a LOT of sense to use the Metro IE browser as much as possible. If you need plug-ins, simply use the menu command "View on desktop". And the Metro version of IE is BLAZZING fast due to the lack of plug-ins and makes a great ad filter to boot.

More programs than ever, better power efficiency, streamlined tools when you want or need them. Microsoft is building Windows 8 and Windows RT to support every CPU architecture, every input method and every form factor that's in common use today. It's an incredible OS when you consider all that it supports.
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Using Metro IE as default is somewhat forcing people to use it. Most people don't know how to change that. Sure, [H] and somewhat smart PC users will learn it and use it. But, what about Grandpa? What about Nancy in HR that couldn't figure out how to close Outlook? They won't know why Farmville isn't working in IE. They won't know how to change it so that it will.

I'm not worried about myself learning it and using it to it's full potential. I'm worried about the millions of users that use their PC for the small things and as a tool. When it doesn't work as it should, out of the box, they aren't going to spend time to figure it out. They are going to give up. My father in law uses a PC to check on a few things, see prices of stuff (IT'S WORTH $1000! I'm gonna sell it. Family heirloom...). He couldn't figure something out, so he canceled his internet service, and doesn't use the laptop anymore. Just gave up... That's who I'm worried about. That's a lot of people giving up and not continuing with PC's.

A little off topic: how much of the Metro UI is controllable via Group Policy? As far as applications, store, etc.?
 
Metro is perfect for these people though. Less complex, easy to install bullet proof programs. Currently Windows presents plenty of challenges to people like your father-in-law. Metro apps really should present fewer issues to those people. And far as plug-ins, millions surf on iPads without them and they seem to get by. And I would imagine that there will some type of mechanism to allow users to simply click a button and view a web page using the desktop version. And it it could be possible to have a setup switch or something that sets this up for the user for the first time.

At any rate, since there's millions people seeing web pages on iPads without plug ins and the iPad is consider the ultimate in simplicity.
 
heatlesssun said:
More programs than ever, better power efficiency, streamlined tools when you want or need them. Microsoft is building Windows 8 and Windows RT to support every CPU architecture, every input method and every form factor that's in common use today. It's an incredible OS when you consider all that it supports.
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It's amazing, mind-blowing, super-duper, revolutionary and super-amazing amazing amazing!
 
wonderfield said:
It's amazing, mind-blowing, super-duper, revolutionary and super-amazing amazing amazing!
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One screen, two screens, three screens, touch screens, hybrid laptop/tablets, full x86 tablets the close to the size and weight of an iPad with almost as good battery life with touch screens and pens. Windows RT devices that might even surpass the iPad in battery life and weigh even less.

Windows 8 crappy or not, will power hardware that a lot people have never even dreamed of.
 
daglesj said:
Exaggeration much?

A few hundred before MS abandons it for some other strategy.
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Rigghhhtt, and yet the phone apps number 87900 and counting. Try again. :rolleyes: Oh, and unlike Iphone and android, WinPhone does not have 15000 farts apps.
 
ManofGod said:
Rigghhhtt, and yet the phone apps number 87900 and counting. Try again. :rolleyes: Oh, and unlike Iphone and android, WinPhone does not have 15000 farts apps.
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Well that great for "tens of hundreds of thousands" of of folks using Windows Mobile then isn't it!

Or am I exaggerating there on the number of Windows phone users? :D

Thing is as with all these app stores, is doesnt matter how many apps you have. Only about 20 or so are crucial to any degree. The rest are copies or crap.
 
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