Windows 8.1 Rolling Out October 18th

[BryanSTG]

In what you stated the changes would still be there, just optional in the box. All I said was that the CHANGES in Windows 8 were for the purpose of making work better with touch and tablets. How one views the efficacy of those changes depends on how they use Windows. Disabling those changes for the sake of familiarity is of course a well known issue but has nothing to do with the changes themselves.

If that option was present then we'd be calling it an improvement not just change.

 

[heatlesssun]

You agreed and played the complaints off as inconsequential.

Not at all. I probably understand the consequences of what he was saying probably better than you because I've actually talked about many them specifically long before this post.

 

[RamonGTP]

I use both operating systems on a daily basis. I'm well aware of the consequences. The only difference is I don't feel the need to make excuses for Windows 8. You and I have had this discussion before. MS could have quite easily accomplished what they are trying to accomplish with W8 without compromising the desktop experience in the manner they did.

 

[heatlesssun]

If that option was present then we'd be calling it an improvement not just change.

So if Microsoft had just done the improvements to the desktop that are in Windows 8.x with a Metro off switch the world would herald it an improvement? So would, some would ask how is this supposed to compete against iPads and Android tablets that didn't exist with 7 was launched. Windows 7 as great as release as that was would still have to battle tablets and in that area it was not well equipped.

 

[Red Falcon]

Two amazingly FUD-filled posts, all in one thread page! Some of the worst FUD-slinging I've seen, and I've been online since BBS days...

You and heatlesssun are the two reasons I no longer post in these threads.
One can only stomach so much of both of your offensive/PR posts before we can no longer take it.

You two have fun annoying the noobies!

 

[RamonGTP]

I'm not sure how UI improvements to the DESKTOP mode has anything to do with ipads or how it would affect it's competition to an iPad or android tablets. Like I said, you feel the need to make excuses, ones that don't make much sense, I might add. I'm clearly not the only one who thinks so.

 

[heatlesssun]

I use both operating systems on a daily basis. I'm well aware of the consequences. The only difference is I don't feel the need to make excuses for Windows 8. You and I have had this discussion before. MS could have quite easily accomplished what they are trying to accomplish with W8 without compromising the desktop experience in the manner they did.

It's not a only a matter of using both OSes daily, but HOW they are used daily. There's a lot in 8 that people didn't even try to understand because they were more worried about trying to make it like 7 rather than figuring out what 8 does. 8.1 brings even more things to learn. I get called a shill but really I just want to understand these change because it's becoming more and more clear that some people are more interested in mindless attacks than actually looking at what is there. And I've said many times that for desktop and keyboard and mouse only folks a lot wasn't there in 8, 8.1 is quite a bit different from the Modern UI side.

If you don't like 8.x, don't use it. As much as people call me a shill I've never told a sole to upgrade here of said that had to have Windows 8. I simply look at it from it's capabilities beyond obsessing with a Start Menu or DVD playback. Which are still available from third parties. And 3rd party support is the reason why Windows became the dominate desktop OS in the first place.

 

[DPI]

So if Microsoft had just done the improvements to the desktop that are in Windows 8.x with a Metro off switch the world would herald it an improvement?

Yes. And had it been there since the launch of Windows 8, everything would have played out differently for it because MS would have been seen as adding rather than taking away; creating a new usage scenario for people to explore rather than attempting to force and dictate it; creating compelling use cases with killer apps rather than expecting people to work in a construction zone with functionally retarded, smartphone caliber apps.

In short, no second chance for a first impression. MS cost themselves lots of time and billions of dollars.

So would, some would ask how is this supposed to compete against iPads and Android tablets that didn't exist with 7 was launched. Windows 7 as great as release as that was would still have to battle tablets and in that area it was not well equipped.

Metro and its design language isn't at the level of come-from-behind innovation that MS needed to begin to compete with entrenched leaders. Microsoft absolutely needed a touch based UI, but Metro is sadly not it because isn't interesting or compelling, even Microsoft and its hired ad agencies haven't a clue how to market the damn thing except showing keyboards being attached and people scrolling the start screen back and forth.

 

[RamonGTP]

It's not a only a matter of using both OSes daily, but HOW they are used daily. There's a lot in 8 that people didn't even try to understand because they were more worried about trying to make it like 7 rather than figuring out what 8 does. 8.1 brings even more things to learn. I get called a shill but really I just want to understand these change because it's becoming more and more clear that some people are more interested in mindless attacks than actually looking at what is there. And I've said many times that for desktop and keyboard and mouse only folks a lot wasn't there in 8, 8.1 is quite a bit different from the Modern UI side.

If you don't like 8.x, don't use it. As much as people call me a shill I've never told a sole to upgrade here of said that had to have Windows 8. I simply look at it from it's capabilities beyond obsessing with a Start Menu or DVD playback. Which are still available from third parties. And 3rd party support is the reason why Windows became the dominate desktop OS in the first place.

What you've failed to realize, weather it's on purpose or not is that many of us know full well how to use Windows 8. It's inferiority to 7 in a desktop environment has been pointed out, to you directly, none of which you could refute, but yet you're STILL making excuses for it. It's that behavior why you were called shill, and there's good reason for it, since that's the epitome of being a shill. You're again exhibiting the same ridiculous behavior that a previous poster called you out on. And I'm not talking about me, and I'm not talking about the guy that called you a shill... See a pattern?

 

[polonyc2]

I think MS could have handled things much differently by simply allowing both a traditional Start menu interface along with Metro...people don't like to be forced into anything...MS is forcing people to abandon what they have been accustomed to for years...forcing people to adapt versus letting them slowly get accustomed to something is completely different

Vista and even Windows 7 was different from XP but MS didn't abandon their user base by creating something totally out of the norm...people still stayed with XP for a long while even after 7 was released but slowly came around...nothing wrong with a touch screen interface and is preferred if you have a tablet device but it doesn't work for traditional desktop use and MS is trying the adapt-or-else approach which will make W8 just a stopgap OS like Vista or maybe even Millenium Edition

 

[Shotglass01]

It's not a only a matter of using both OSes daily, but HOW they are used daily. There's a lot in 8 that people didn't even try to understand because they were more worried about trying to make it like 7 rather than figuring out what 8 does. 8.1 brings even more things to learn. I get called a shill but really I just want to understand these change because it's becoming more and more clear that some people are more interested in mindless attacks than actually looking at what is there. And I've said many times that for desktop and keyboard and mouse only folks a lot wasn't there in 8, 8.1 is quite a bit different from the Modern UI side.

If you don't like 8.x, don't use it. As much as people call me a shill I've never told a sole to upgrade here of said that had to have Windows 8. I simply look at it from it's capabilities beyond obsessing with a Start Menu or DVD playback. Which are still available from third parties. And 3rd party support is the reason why Windows became the dominate desktop OS in the first place.

+1 for you. You get a cookie. Now I understand the reason behind the posts.

And, to get in to a major debate over the next 5 to 10 years would be completely off-topic on this subject, but I understand where you are coming from. It's disheartening to realize that MS could completely lock off the desktop later down the road (which is where I think they want to go.) Why have powerful CPU's? Why have powerful GPU's? There would be no reason for a PC any longer. We'd all have to accept that we own glorified toasters.

I think that might be the biggest bitch here. The start screen and their apps contained within them marginalize all of the bucks we've spent putting in to super PC's that MS used to cater to. Abd, that's simply not their goal anymore.

 

[Pleb]

In what you stated the changes would still be there, just optional in the box. All I said was that the CHANGES in Windows 8 were for the purpose of making work better with touch and tablets. How one views the efficacy of those changes depends on how they use Windows. Disabling those changes for the sake of familiarity is of course a well known issue but has nothing to do with the changes themselves.

LOL, reads like doublespeak to me.

 

[Spidey329]

So if Microsoft had just done the improvements to the desktop that are in Windows 8.x with a Metro off switch the world would herald it an improvement? So would, some would ask how is this supposed to compete against iPads and Android tablets that didn't exist with 7 was launched. Windows 7 as great as release as that was would still have to battle tablets and in that area it was not well equipped.

Then make it a tablet only OS. If they're going universal, allow all options. I don't think people are outright calling Metro bad overall, it can work for touch but it's not the catsass for mouse/KB. People just want the option.

 

[ManofGod]

LOL, reads like doublespeak to me.

So, the only reason you came here was to bash Microsoft, Windows 8 and those you do not agree with about the same topics, eh? Great job, mission accomplished! I like and prefer Windows 8 as my primary OS now and I am professional in the computer field.

I respect my customers and those who I work with whether they agree with me or not. I am just suggesting that you learn to do the same but, hey, whatever, carry on.

 

[ManofGod]

What you've failed to realize, weather it's on purpose or not is that many of us know full well how to use Windows 8. It's inferiority to 7 in a desktop environment has been pointed out, to you directly, none of which you could refute, but yet you're STILL making excuses for it. It's that behavior why you were called shill, and there's good reason for it, since that's the epitome of being a shill. You're again exhibiting the same ridiculous behavior that a previous poster called you out on. And I'm not talking about me, and I'm not talking about the guy that called you a shill... See a pattern?

That is because it is not inferior which is just your opinion. I find it to be at least equal if not superior to Windows 7 for my daily driver. Much of the points that have been made have been refuted but, it is like trying to tell those who hate Windows 8 that the grass is green when they argue that it is blue.

Now, does Windows 8 have issues and could it have been better presented? Absolutely! That, however, does not make it inferior.

 

[mjestart]

Not necessarily jumping through more hoops, but it comes down to specific examples. Not being able to resize the start screen hinders multitasking/general productivity regardless of 'how many steps it takes' to do something.

The reduction in efficiency wasn't a necessary part of their 'unified approach'. They could have unified their UIs without throwing desktop users under the bus. Also, apple hasn't tried to turn OSX into iOS and their separate UIs seem to be doing just fine.

Anyways, thanks for agreeing that most of those things would improve Win 8.

 

[polonyc2]

the problem with Windows 8 is not that's a bad OS per say...it's actually pretty good under the hood and has some nice improvements (built in Flash and DirectX support) but overall I still prefer W7 for it's functionality...I used W8 for awhile and tried to convince myself to make the switch permanently but in the end could not make the case...I've used every OS since Windows 95 and was even a Vista supporter but can't do it with W8

 

[shspvr]

I agree Windows 8 should be more of only phone/tablet OS only the reason is because your working with small hand held device which is more suited the in that fashion unlike say a Desktop or Laptop even a few hour you arm will get tried of the touch screen don't get me wrong there area where the Windows 8 and touch screen GUI will be most useful.

 

[heatlesssun]

Yes. And had it been there since the launch of Windows 8, everything would have played out differently for it because MS would have been seen as adding rather than taking away; creating a new usage scenario for people to explore rather than attempting to force and dictate it; creating compelling use cases with killer apps rather than expecting people to work in a construction zone with functionally retarded, smartphone caliber apps.

In short, no second chance for a first impression. MS cost themselves lots of time and billions of dollars.

Windows is often a "construction zone", XP was very much one when it came out with it's plethora of security issues that did in time get mostly fixed. Ultimately unless Microsoft keeps 100% backwards compatibility with everything it's ever put in Windows, there's always going to be some that won't like what get's removed. I just don't think there's need for both a Start Menu AND Start Screen, the Start Screen simply needs to address enough concerns of desktop users and 8.1 did take some steps in that direction though not enough probably.

Metro and its design language isn't at the level of come-from-behind innovation that MS needed to begin to compete with entrenched leaders. Microsoft absolutely needed a touch based UI, but Metro is sadly not it because isn't interesting or compelling, even Microsoft and its hired ad agencies haven't a clue how to market the damn thing except showing keyboards being attached and people scrolling the start screen back and forth.

I don't think there's really one killer app. Probably the #1 activity on tablets is web browsing and in that area Windows 8 is very good. I see a lot of effort in simply being able to view Flash sites on iOS and Android. Microsoft has made it's mistakes with 8 but including Flash in Modern IE for 8 and RT wasn't one on them. Yes, there need to be more quality apps and more of the most popular ones, those holes are getting plugged bit by bit but things like big tablet game releases are a problem, for instance no Plants vs. Zombies 2 for 8 or the PC right now, that's a big problem that certainly needs fixing.

 

[heatlesssun]

What you've failed to realize, weather it's on purpose or not is that many of us know full well how to use Windows 8. It's inferiority to 7 in a desktop environment has been pointed out, to you directly, none of which you could refute, but yet you're STILL making excuses for it. It's that behavior why you were called shill, and there's good reason for it, since that's the epitome of being a shill. You're again exhibiting the same ridiculous behavior that a previous poster called you out on. And I'm not talking about me, and I'm not talking about the guy that called you a shill... See a pattern?

I've specifically talked about the issues with context menus and in particular Jump Lists. The Start Screen should support those things. How is that making excuses? That said, as an app launcher overall, particularly on a multiple monitor system, Windows 8 works quite well in that regard compared to 7. Something that I just noticed in the 9471 leak when using my Touch Mouse. I have a flick gesture setup to bring up the Start Screen and now the Start Screen will come up on that screen. A few glitches in it but it's MUCH faster to bring this up without always have to reposition the mouse on a single monitor. And one lovely thing about is that Modern apps will open on the screen from where the Start Screen is launched.

Just about anything is going to have its weaknesses AND strengths. Calling me a shill simply because I point out both sides of issues doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm simply reporting what I see and what I think needs addressing and what works well.

 

[heatlesssun]

I agree Windows 8 should be more of only phone/tablet OS only the reason is because your working with small hand held device which is more suited the in that fashion unlike say a Desktop or Laptop even a few hour you arm will get tried of the touch screen don't get me wrong there area where the Windows 8 and touch screen GUI will be most useful.

Then use a mouse and keyboard. Even most Modern apps work fine with mice and keyboards.

 

[Pleb]

So, the only reason you came here was to bash Microsoft, Windows 8 and those you do not agree with about the same topics, eh? Great job, mission accomplished! I like and prefer Windows 8 as my primary OS now and I am professional in the computer field.

I respect my customers and those who I work with whether they agree with me or not. I am just suggesting that you learn to do the same but, hey, whatever, carry on.

I came here as the voice of reason.

 

[heatlesssun]

Hard to see any reason from folks that come into every thread about Windows 8 and spend way more time calling people names than talking about the product itself beyond the same old general complaints.

 

[BladeVenom]

Hard to see any reason from folks that come into every thread about Windows 8 and spend way more time calling people names than talking about the product itself beyond the same old general complaints.

If you don't like it, quit running in to defend Windows in every single thread.

If you want to talk about repetitive, trying reading your threads, (defend Microsoft no matter what, defend Microsoft no matter what, defend Microsoft no matter what, defend Microsoft no matter what. etc.)

 

[heatlesssun]

First of all, name calling is against the forum rules. Secondly, since when did talking about a products features become defending it? I guess the following is a defense of 8.1 in your mind but it is at least factual and not yet another personal attack of people you don't even know.

I just realized something about the new options in the 9471 leak not in the preview build. In the 9741 version the booting to desktop option says "When I sign in or close all apps on a screen, go to the desktop instead of Start". I thought that there was no way to control the app closing behavior but there is, it's just tied in with booting to the desktop.

 

[mjestart]

I don't see desktop users using apps much. Can't be run in a window, most of them are severely lacking in features (does Mail have print yet?), very unpopular Metro color scheme, etc.

It's not very efficient accessing the start menu by moving the mouse into the corner. Better to press the start button. Of course it would be even better if you could access the start menu like a secondary context menu that opens at the position of the mouse, for minimal mouse travel time while not taking up the entire screen to launch a program.

 

[Ur_Mom]

I just realized something about the new options in the 9471 leak not in the preview build. In the 9741 version the booting to desktop option says "When I sign in or close all apps on a screen, go to the desktop instead of Start". I thought that there was no way to control the app closing behavior but there is, it's just tied in with booting to the desktop.

Which helps make the 'Start Screen' more of the app launcher/start button style instead of the main UI with the desktop reduced to just an app (as it previously was).

 

[Ur_Mom]

I don't see desktop users using apps much. Can't be run in a window, most of them are severely lacking in features (does Mail have print yet?), very unpopular Metro color scheme, etc.

It's not very efficient accessing the start menu by moving the mouse into the corner. Better to press the start button. Of course it would be even better if you could access the start menu like a secondary context menu that opens at the position of the mouse, for minimal mouse travel time while not taking up the entire screen to launch a program.

Which, to be honest, the reason I was leaving Apple iOS was because it was difficult to get work done. I don't like the full screen Metro apps on my tablet much, either. I still use desktop applications on my Win8 tablet. Metro is easier to use on a touch screen and definitely easier than Win7 on a touchscreen. But, with a keyboard and a tablet, I can use desktop apps and get some real work done. The iPad was just a consuming product. With Windows, I can create and consume. Pushing Metro apps really doesn't do a lot for me. There are very few that have any value to me (the Reader app is nice), when I have desktop apps where I can be much more productive. And even some of them can really shine on a tablet (Foxit Reader, Netflix, etc. that can go full screen and have a shit ton more features than the neutered Metro version or alternative - not a general Win8 con, more of a app creator fault).

 

[heatlesssun]

I don't see desktop users using apps much. Can't be run in a window, most of them are severely lacking in features (does Mail have print yet?), very unpopular Metro color scheme, etc.

The mail app in 8.1 is much improved and yes it supports printing to the same devices available to a desktop app. Windowing is also much improved. No free floating overlapping windows but the new snapping is very nice. Setting up apps side by side and moving them around is actually much easier than with desktop apps designed for it automatically open secondary apps on the side

It's not very efficient accessing the start menu by moving the mouse into the corner. Better to press the start button. Of course it would be even better if you could access the start menu like a secondary context menu that opens at the position of the mouse, for minimal mouse travel time while not taking up the entire screen to launch a program.

The Start Screen can be opened on any screen of a multi-monitor system. I use a touch mouse and with a quick two finger flick gesture can open up the Start Screen on whatever screen the mouse is on.

 

[heatlesssun]

There are very few that have any value to me (the Reader app is nice), when I have desktop apps where I can be much more productive. And even some of them can really shine on a tablet (Foxit Reader, Netflix, etc. that can go full screen and have a shit ton more features than the neutered Metro version or alternative - not a general Win8 con, more of a app creator fault).

While many of the Modern apps, particularly Microsoft's first party apps, were very good overall, most of them are looking much better in 8.1. The new Mail app is probably all the email capability most people need. Part of the idea behind Modern apps is to make them simpler, indeed straightforward simple and yet useful is something that I think is one reason why tablets for many folks have replaced desktops. Everything doesn't need to be a Photoshop or Excel or AutoCAD. Indeed one of the arguments against Office is that most people will never use all of the functionality in it and this simpler alternatives are perfectly viable for many people and I've always concurred with that view.

 

[Pleb]

Hard to see any reason from folks that come into every thread about Windows 8 and spend way more time calling people names than talking about the product itself beyond the same old general complaints.

Having sleepless nights over it? I recommend Nytol.

 

[heatlesssun]

If name calling by people I don't know were the biggest problem in my life it would be perfect.

 

[mjestart]

I don't need an entire monitor taken up by a shortcut launcher. Btw if your mouse has extra assignable buttons you can assign one to open the start menu/screen.

It is too bad the start menu can't be opened like a context menu at the cursor position (although there are 3rd party programs that do that), but I'd still take it over the start screen.

 

[heatlesssun]

I don't need an entire monitor taken up by a shortcut launcher. Btw if your mouse has extra assignable buttons you can assign one to open the start menu/screen.

It is too bad the start menu can't be opened like a context menu at the cursor position (although there are 3rd party programs that do that), but I'd still take it over the start screen.

If the Start Screen where just an app launcher true. If you don't use Modern apps then you don't get live tiles and they are actually pretty slick, especially in 8.1 with the new sizes. And sure, you can use buttons or a gesture to open the Start Menu, but it only opens up in on place, the Start Screen on multiple independent monitors can open on any screen and that is a superior to the Start Menu.

I still don't believe that the full screen nature is as big of deal as many make it out to be, especially with a multi-monitor system. It's not like the Start Menu can be opened and anything else done simultaneously. The reason for opening the Start Menu is to open up another activity, another application, search, etc. which means switching away from what one is doing at the moment by definition. The case where having the Start Menu open and seeing something else on the same screen increasing productivity can't be all that high with people that are having a hard time with the Windows 8 UI. I do agree that it's "jarring" in that it's a transition, however people seem to cope just fine with these same kinds of transitions on mobile devices.