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Windows 7 on XP

S

SBMongoos

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jul 22, 2001
Messages
1,134
I'm looking to install Windows 7 and Vista on my XP box via VM. I'm running the 32bit version of XP Pro. Can I only install the 32bit version of 7 and Vista or can I install the 64bit version within XP via VM?

I do have 4Gb of RAM installed.

I know XP 32Bit only sees about 3.25 of the RAM. Will 7 or Vista be able to see all of it running via VM through XP?
 
I'm running sun virtualbox on win xp 32 bit, with a guest os of win 7 64-bit,

So yes you can
 
If your CPU supports hardware virtualization (the e8400 in your sig does), then yes- you can run a 64-bit guest inside a 32-bit host. (Doing the opposite, running 32 inside of 64, does not require this hardware support.)

However, you will still have to deal with the 32-bit memory limitation; the host will not be able to allocate anything more than it sees, meaning total memory usage will actually be less than 3.25GB for the Vista/7 guest.
 
mavalpha said:
However, you will still have to deal with the 32-bit memory limitation; the host will not be able to allocate anything more than it sees, meaning total memory usage will actually be less than 3.25GB for the Vista/7 guest.
Click to expand...

Actually not true, if you have a product that supports it. VT will let you bypass the host memory limits by bypassing that level of the OS entirely and running at ring 1. VMWare workstation, for instance, supports this. :)
 
mavalpha said:
Sweet, didn't know that! Server2 as well?
Click to expand...

Haven't tried - I'll see if I can find a VT system around to give it a shot on (my one 32 bit host with VT has WS on it, and the two can't be installed at the same time). :)
 
lopoetve said:
Haven't tried - I'll see if I can find a VT system around to give it a shot on (my one 32 bit host with VT has WS on it, and the two can't be installed at the same time). :)
Click to expand...

Did you find anything out with VMware Server2?

Is it possible to still get my hands on an RC of Windows 7 (want 64 bit now I read above notes).

Also, I'm currently using Virtual PC 2001 SP1. Running Win 7 (XP Pro as the host). Both 32 bit. I'm having issues getting on the the internet in 7 and cannot get sound, etc. Not sure what to do. Odd as I can ping domain names at the command prompt in 7 but cannot use IE to get on the web. Plus, is there a way to change the amount of memory used for video in Virtual PC. Clearly I don't have enough based on what I'm seeing. I've set 2G of RAM for Win 7 use in Virtual PC.
 
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SBMongoos said:
Did you find anything out with VMware Server2?
Click to expand...

Only Workstation supports this feature. It's one of the benefits of being a paying customer, or certified engineer.

SBMongoos said:
Is it possible to still get my hands on an RC of Windows 7 (want 64 bit now I read above notes).
Click to expand...

The RC is no longer publicly available. It has also been removed from TechNet and MSDN channels since the RTM Win7 release was made official. Someone may still have it, but providing it to you, at this point, would violate the MS license that they have agreed to.

SBMongoos said:
Also, I'm currently using Virtual PC 2001 SP1. Running Win 7 (XP Pro as the host). Both 32 bit. I'm having issues getting on the the internet in 7 and cannot get sound, etc. Not sure what to do. Odd as I can ping domain names at the command prompt in 7 but cannot use IE to get on the web.
Click to expand...

You need VirtualPC 2007 for this to function properly. It's free, go download the newest version from MS. Even VirtualPC 2004 is stated as being too old to run a Win7 guest properly. After this is done, check your networking settings and see if you're NAT'ing or bridging the VM connection to the Host ethernet adapter. But, first thing is to update the VirtualPC software.

SBMongoos said:
Plus, is there a way to change the amount of memory used for video in Virtual PC. Clearly I don't have enough based on what I'm seeing. I've set 2G of RAM for Win 7 use in Virtual PC.
Click to expand...

No, there is not. Even under VMWare workstation, which supports many more configuration options, the ability to manipulate the video adapter RAM allocation is not on the list. Additionally, VirtualPC (nor VMWare Server) will provide guest video acceleration via the host graphics adapter. VMWare workstation, however, will. Additionally, 2GB is a LOT to give a guest VM for RAM. If you only have 4GB of RAM, I would recommend giving the guest OS 1GB, unless you have specific need to give it more. Otherwise, you will possibly over-allocate to the GuestVM, and starve performance to the HostOS, and cause excessive virtual memory paging to occur, which will then go to your hard drive...which will slow you down, even more.

Just my $.02
 
sabregen said:
Only Workstation supports this feature. It's one of the benefits of being a paying customer, or certified engineer.



The RC is no longer publicly available. It has also been removed from TechNet and MSDN channels since the RTM Win7 release was made official. Someone may still have it, but providing it to you, at this point, would violate the MS license that they have agreed to.



You need VirtualPC 2007 for this to function properly. It's free, go download the newest version from MS. Even VirtualPC 2004 is stated as being too old to run a Win7 guest properly. After this is done, check your networking settings and see if you're NAT'ing or bridging the VM connection to the Host ethernet adapter. But, first thing is to update the VirtualPC software.



No, there is not. Even under VMWare workstation, which supports many more configuration options, the ability to manipulate the video adapter RAM allocation is not on the list. Additionally, VirtualPC (nor VMWare Server) will provide guest video acceleration via the host graphics adapter. VMWare workstation, however, will. Additionally, 2GB is a LOT to give a guest VM for RAM. If you only have 4GB of RAM, I would recommend giving the guest OS 1GB, unless you have specific need to give it more. Otherwise, you will possibly over-allocate to the GuestVM, and starve performance to the HostOS, and cause excessive virtual memory paging to occur, which will then go to your hard drive...which will slow you down, even more.

Just my $.02
Click to expand...

But I'm using Virtual PC 2007 (SP1). I'm confused here. The SP1 version should be the same but with the SP.
 
your original post said VirtualPC 2001 SP1, not 2007. If you have VirtualPC 2007, then I would suggest that you check your network settings config, and see if you are NAT'ing, or running bridged. I would imagine that you'd rather run bridged...most people do.

The GuestVM RAM allocation issues, and video adapter RAM allocation issues still apply. Also, check your GuestVM IE proxy settings. Make sure that the GuestVM has an audio adapter, that it's enabled, and the the Device Manager isn't listing it with an exclamation point.
 
SBMongoos said:
Did you find anything out with VMware Server2?

Is it possible to still get my hands on an RC of Windows 7 (want 64 bit now I read above notes).

Also, I'm currently using Virtual PC 2001 SP1. Running Win 7 (XP Pro as the host). Both 32 bit. I'm having issues getting on the the internet in 7 and cannot get sound, etc. Not sure what to do. Odd as I can ping domain names at the command prompt in 7 but cannot use IE to get on the web. Plus, is there a way to change the amount of memory used for video in Virtual PC. Clearly I don't have enough based on what I'm seeing. I've set 2G of RAM for Win 7 use in Virtual PC.
Click to expand...
haven't had a chance :(
 
sabregen said:
your original post said VirtualPC 2001 SP1, not 2007. If you have VirtualPC 2007, then I would suggest that you check your network settings config, and see if you are NAT'ing, or running bridged. I would imagine that you'd rather run bridged...most people do.

The GuestVM RAM allocation issues, and video adapter RAM allocation issues still apply. Also, check your GuestVM IE proxy settings. Make sure that the GuestVM has an audio adapter, that it's enabled, and the the Device Manager isn't listing it with an exclamation point.
Click to expand...

I've done what you've stated in your last sentence just above.

I can go to the command prompt in Win 7 and ping a domain name. This is what seems odd to me. But I cannot go anywhere with IE 8. Do I need to set up bridging in the network connections to get this to work correctly along with getting onto the LAN?

I understand that I should lower the amount of RAM allocated to Virtual PC 2007. I'll drop it from 2G to 1G as suggested.
 
you don't NEED to run in bridged mode, but it makes diagnosing connection issues easier. run the following in the VM... this is basic networking 101 troubleshooting:

ipconfig /all (does this output look right?)
ping DNS #1 ip (do you get a response, does the address look right?)
ping DNS #2 ip (do you get a response, does the address look right?)
ping gateway ip (do you get a reponse, does the address look right?)

do you get any failed responses, then some that come back just fine? what are your ping times like? if you can ping internal resources, and ping your gateway...can you ping www.google.com?

you need to determine if the problem is internal, or external name resolution. putting the VM into bridged mode will assist in making this easier, since we won't have NAT in the way. after we get it fixed, then we can put it back into NAT mode, if you want.
 
sabregen said:
you don't NEED to run in bridged mode, but it makes diagnosing connection issues easier. run the following in the VM... this is basic networking 101 troubleshooting:

ipconfig /all (does this output look right?)
ping DNS #1 ip (do you get a response, does the address look right?)
ping DNS #2 ip (do you get a response, does the address look right?)
ping gateway ip (do you get a reponse, does the address look right?)

do you get any failed responses, then some that come back just fine? what are your ping times like? if you can ping internal resources, and ping your gateway...can you ping www.google.com?

you need to determine if the problem is internal, or external name resolution. putting the VM into bridged mode will assist in making this easier, since we won't have NAT in the way. after we get it fixed, then we can put it back into NAT mode, if you want.
Click to expand...

Good point.

But when doing the ipconfig /all I don't see the correct LAN connection device name. Instead of Realtek it's showing Intel 21140 Based PCI Fast Ethernet Adapter. I'm getting an IP address from the router. It sees the gateway and I can ping it. I can ping my printer and able to ping www.yahoo.com and the times all look good as well.

There are to be two tunnel adapters listed and I'm not sure what this is for.
 
I'm not surprised that it works better with less RAM. you were likely causing virtual memory paging on the host, which as stated, goes out the the HDD...which is where the HostOS (obviously) has its files, and where the guest VM .vdk or .vmdk files are also located. And, if the VM pages "RAM" to virtual memory...then the VM is paging to it's disk...which is a file on the Host disk..and the host is paging...you get the idea. It snowballs fast.

Okay, on your network issue: Yes, the adapter listed inside your VM looks correct. You will not see the REAL chipset name/adapter name, inside the VM. The reason is that VirtualPC (or any other Type 2 hypervisor) will do full virtualization on the NIC. In other words, it is completely abstracting the real, underlying hardware. It is presenting a different virtual device to the GuestVM than actually exists on the host. It does this so that the type 2 hypervisor (in this case, VirtualPC) can arbitrate I/O requests to and from the GuestVM. This is true for all of the GuestVM's "hardware" If you go under Device Manager, the hardware that you see listed there will look weird. None of it is likely to be listed as the real hardware device name/type (the hardware physically present in the hostOS).

So, with that being said, the reason that you have two tunneling adapters is because VirtualPC has one for bridged mode, and one for NAT mode. Which ever mode you want the GuestVM to run in, it gets mapped to the corresponding virtual tunnel adapter. You should be able to determine which tunneling adapter is for which connection type, within the VirtualPC Settings/Options menu. This will be independant of the settings for the GuestVM, itself.

Now, if you have set it properly, and got your GuestVM set up so that it is attached to the bridge mode tunneling adapter, you should have a real IP address, DNS info, gateway, etc. If you do (and you're not NAT'ed) then (as you already stated) you should be able to ping around internally, and get responses from real devices on your network (as you stated that ou could..your printer, for example).

If you can ping www.yahoo.com, and get a reponse...then there's something else going on. Have you double checked your proxy settings in IE? Have you checked your hostOS firewall, and guestVM firewall settings?
 
sabregen said:
If you can ping www.yahoo.com, and get a reponse...then there's something else going on. Have you double checked your proxy settings in IE? Have you checked your hostOS firewall, and guestVM firewall settings?
Click to expand...

Great. Getting these details helps and makes total sense. I haven't messed with any of the Virtual stuff yet and am overdue. Thanks for your continuing help!

No proxy settings are setup in IE. This has always been default as far as I know. IE is set to automatically detect settings.

I have ESS on the host and just moments ago installed it on the Guest (probably should have waited) but I have both set to be interactive so I can intervene.
 
ah...software security suite/firewall, etc? THAT is likely your problem
 
sabregen said:
ah...software security suite/firewall, etc? THAT is likely your problem
Click to expand...

Well, no. It was doing the same thing before I installed it. Although I admit I should have waited to install it. But I'm confident this is not the problem.
 
just for grins, you should try disabling it completely on both the host, and in the guest. and FYI, if you install it on the host, and have the guest NAT'd...then the guest would be automatically protected, as the host will be doing the NAT translation, and therefore receiving all of the in/outbound traffic.

this does NOT apply if you are bridged.

I'm trying to think of what else to try. you can ping, and get responses...but no traffic. it definitely sounds like a firewall is turned on. ICMP traffic is flowing, but not HTTP traffic. what about FTP, or P2P (bit torrent), SSH, or some other traffic type? We need to determine now if it's just web traffic, or all traffic.

Is port 80 blocked on the guestVM? this sounds like it's gonna get messy.
 
sabregen said:
just for grins, you should try disabling it completely on both the host, and in the guest. and FYI, if you install it on the host, and have the guest NAT'd...then the guest would be automatically protected, as the host will be doing the NAT translation, and therefore receiving all of the in/outbound traffic.

this does NOT apply if you are bridged.

I'm trying to think of what else to try. you can ping, and get responses...but no traffic. it definitely sounds like a firewall is turned on. ICMP traffic is flowing, but not HTTP traffic. what about FTP, or P2P (bit torrent), SSH, or some other traffic type? We need to determine now if it's just web traffic, or all traffic.

Is port 80 blocked on the guestVM? this sounds like it's gonna get messy.
Click to expand...

Okay...I need some reminding here. Clarify with me by NAT'd so I'm on the same page with you.

Edit:

I disabled ESS on the VM Guest and on the Host. I can now surf with IE in the Guest (Win 7). If I enable ESS on the host only I loose access again. So are there VM ports or some ports to open? I'm a little disappointed that ESS didn't throw a flag asking me an option since I have it set to Interactive Mode.
 
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bridged mode is where the guest has a "regular" set of IP information. in other words, an IP that would normally exist on your internal network. here's an example:

router is 192.168.1.1
dns #1 is 198.59.115.2
dns#2 is 198.59.115.3
host ip is 192.168.1.100
guestvm ip is 192.168.1.101


NAT (network address translation) is what your router is doing already, for your internal network. the router will get an external, routable, public IP from your ISP. something like:

75.115.2.3

but internally, you address is as

192.168.1.1

the router is doing NAT in between the internal (switch) interface and the external (WAN) interface, thus allowing you to have multiple internal computers have access to the internet. they are all sharing the same external IP.

the same can be said when you set the host machine up to do NAT for the guestVMs. the host IP address (from the example, above) would be:

192.168.1.100

but the guests would get a separate IP space, preventing them from having access to anything not in their NAT address space. For example, a guestVM that's tied to a tunnel adapter in NAT mode might get the following ip:

192.168.2.100

all of the DNS aand gateway information for a guestVM running under a NAT'd tunneling adapter should point to the host's NAT address. effectively, just like your router, the host running NAT'd VMs will have two sets of IP information. One will be the "normal" set that you see on your network, and one will be the set for the NAT'd environment that the guestVMs are addressing.

Host "real" IP address info:
IP: 192.168.1.100
Subnet: 255.255.255.0
Gateway: 192.168.1.1
DNS: 198.59.115.2, 198.59.115.3

Host NAT IP info:
IP: 192.168.2.100
Subnet: 255.255.0.0
Gateway: 192.168.2.100
DNS: 192.168.2.100

Guest NAT IP:
IP: 192.168.2.101
Subnet: 255.255.0.0
Gateway: 192.168.2.100
DNS: 192.168.2.100

The host is the "router" for the guestVMs running in NAT mode. Make sense?
 
sabregen said:
bridged mode is where the guest has a "regular" set of IP information. in other words, an IP that would normally exist on your internal network. here's an example:

router is 192.168.1.1
dns #1 is 198.59.115.2
dns#2 is 198.59.115.3
host ip is 192.168.1.100
guestvm ip is 192.168.1.101


NAT (network address translation) is what your router is doing already, for your internal network. the router will get an external, routable, public IP from your ISP. something like:

75.115.2.3

but internally, you address is as

192.168.1.1

the router is doing NAT in between the internal (switch) interface and the external (WAN) interface, thus allowing you to have multiple internal computers have access to the internet. they are all sharing the same external IP.

the same can be said when you set the host machine up to do NAT for the guestVMs. the host IP address (from the example, above) would be:

192.168.1.100

but the guests would get a separate IP space, preventing them from having access to anything not in their NAT address space. For example, a guestVM that's tied to a tunnel adapter in NAT mode might get the following ip:

192.168.2.100

all of the DNS aand gateway information for a guestVM running under a NAT'd tunneling adapter should point to the host's NAT address. effectively, just like your router, the host running NAT'd VMs will have two sets of IP information. One will be the "normal" set that you see on your network, and one will be the set for the NAT'd environment that the guestVMs are addressing.

Host "real" IP address info:
IP: 192.168.1.100
Subnet: 255.255.255.0
Gateway: 192.168.1.1
DNS: 198.59.115.2, 198.59.115.3

Host NAT IP info:
IP: 192.168.2.100
Subnet: 255.255.0.0
Gateway: 192.168.2.100
DNS: 192.168.2.100

Guest NAT IP:
IP: 192.168.2.101
Subnet: 255.255.0.0
Gateway: 192.168.2.100
DNS: 192.168.2.100

The host is the "router" for the guestVMs running in NAT mode. Make sense?
Click to expand...

Yes, a lot of this I already but I allowed myself to get wrapped around the axle a bit with the VM part.

So is there a port I need to open for the VM software in ESS so I can get on the internet with the guest OS?
 
I don't know. I've never used ESS. That part, I cannot help you with. I would recommend, for troubleshootings sake, that you disable it entirely, for now.
 
sabregen said:
I don't know. I've never used ESS. That part, I cannot help you with. I would recommend, for troubleshootings sake, that you disable it entirely, for now.
Click to expand...

I'll do some research. I'm not at all comfortable disabling my security software.

Edit: Just got back home. Dug into the advanced tree view and enabled "bridged connections". I'm good to go.
 
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awesomesauce. another one bites the dust. and no you understand what is going on, and why, which is even better than just fixing it.
 
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